Zogby: Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of 9/11

[Minstrel Boy]

Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and “Consciously Failed” To Act; 66% Call For New Probe of Unanswered Questions by Congress or New York’s Attorney General, New Zogby International Poll Reveals


On the eve of a Republican National Convention invoking 9/11 symbols, sound bytes and imagery, half (49.3%) of New York City residents and 41% of New York citizens overall say that some of our leaders "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act," according to the poll conducted by Zogby International. The poll of New York residents was conducted from Tuesday August 24 through Thursday August 26, 2004. Overall results have a margin of sampling error of +/-3.5.

The poll is the first of its kind conducted in America that surveys attitudes regarding US government complicity in the 9/11 tragedy. Despite the acute legal and political implications of this accusation, nearly 30% of registered Republicans and over 38% of those who described themselves as "very conservative" supported the claim.

The charge found very high support among adults under 30 (62.8%), African-Americans (62.5%), Hispanics (60.1%), Asians (59.4%), and "Born Again" Evangelical Christians (47.9%).

Less than two in five (36%) believe that the 9/11 Commission had "answered all the important questions about what actually happened on September 11th," and two in three (66%) New Yorkers (and 56.2% overall) called for another full investigation of the "still unanswered questions" by Congress or Elliot Spitzer, New York's Attorney General. Self-identified "very liberal" New Yorkers supported a new inquiry by a margin of three to one, but so did half (53%) of "very conservative" citizens across the state. The call for a deeper probe was especially strong from Hispanics (75.6%), African-Americans (75.3%) citizens with income from $15-25K (74.3%), women (62%) and Evangelicals (59.9%).

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=855

[Beetwasher]

1. Spitzer Should Get Into It, It's A Crime That Happened In NY

and we have very few answers and no one held responsible for the failures.

[glitch]

2. If I live to see that maybe I'll die happy after all. nt

:evilgrin:

[JackRiddler]

116. Do you mind mentioning the actual sponsors of the poll?

Brought to you by

911Truth.org !!!

You're welcome.

Now give us 60,000,000 hits, will you?

9/11 Truth in 2004!

Nicholas

[graphixtech]

139. Thank you 911Truth.org!

Beautiful work and congratulations, Nick!
This is very refreshing to see.

:hi:


http://www.911Truth.org/

[bacchant]

3. LIHOP / MIHOP alive and well in NY. Turn up the heat. eom

[Joylaughter]

38. MIHOP

That was my immediate thought on 9/12/01 and I remain convinced of MIHOP.

[2Design]

4. WOW this is really great ......a lot of LIHOP people out there

[Just Me]

123. The polls fail to measure the number of "closet" LIHOP positions.

The polls fail to measure a helluva lot of confusion, insecurity, struggle and reality of the American people.

Perhaps, the "polling" fails to be inclined towards basic American principles and values and more inclined towards advancing,....

[ignatius 2]

5. Wow..New Yorkers are smart people with built in B/S detectors.

n/t

[0007]

28. One of the greatest cities in the world, without a doubt!

[yardwork]

6. Wow is right. I'm surprised!

What's interesting is that almost half (47.9%) of the "Born Again's" believe this! Will they be voting for BushCo? Rove is counting on it....

I am only a wishy-washy LIHOP, but I feel strongly that the 9/11 investigation was a white-wash and we need to have a true bipartisan committee research this and reveal what really happened.

[Disturbed]

10. LIHOP

I strongly suspect that the Neo Facsists had intell that an attack was coming but ignored the warnings. I don't feel that they had detailed specifics of a date and place and direct method. The statement that none could have imagained planes being used as missles is totally absurd for many reasons, whjich have been stated on DU plenty of times. Of course, since the 911 Commission did not fully investigate many questions will remain unanswered and that leads to suspicions by a lot of people that it may have been a full LIHOP or the extreme MIHOP.

[leesa]

127. I don't either. I think they NAMED the place, date and time.

[skypilot]

7. There's hope afterall!!!!!

Americans haven't been as duped as we've come to believe. And how surprising is this figure:47.9% of "Born Again" Evangelical Christians!?! Isn't that part of Bush's base?

[peacetalksforall]

8. Yes, this was a criminal act that occurred in the states where the a/c

supposedly took off from and ended up in. But, our lazy, hazy federal leadership turned it into a state of war against a phantomly named Al Queda in lieu of a country or a person. Where would we be if the states and the appropriate federal departments had handled it as they did for the first WTC bombing. Maybe we would know who placed the put-options to begin with. Maybe we would know that we didn't have to look outside the U.S. except for partners.

[JackRKelly]

9. It would seem not all Americans are as dull-minded

as some political operatives on DU would
have you believe.I've read posts here which
stated Americans would never believe their
government would be complicit in 9 11.

One fellow stated people who thought so, to
paraphrase, were the loony left.

I've lurked for a long time. This deserves a
post.

As a resident of Queens, New York, I take
pride in the intelligence of my fellow New Yorkers.

I'm impressed with your posts Minstrel Boy.

[glitch]

12. Welcome to DU

We need your voice here, thanks for delurking.

[Minstrel Boy]

17. This is the most heartening poll

I've seen in a long while. Similar polls of Canadians and Germans have numbers in the 60% range for those who believe some measure of complicity.

The more people who say something doesn't add up here, fewer people will believe themselves crazy for thinking it.

There is one thing that troubles me. Americans are permitted to believe anything, but know nothing. This goes back to Dallas '63 and beyond. While it's great to see numbers like these, for a difference to be made belief must become knowledge, and people have to go to prison.

Thanks for your post, Jack, and glad you delurked.

[Jackpine Radical]

95. Wow, a whole, very large city

full of loony lefties.
Gotta love it.

[Occulus]

143. interesting you mention that

Most of the people I talk to know they haven't been told the whole truth. While the media does try hard and often succeeds in smothering the message, more and more people are connected to the internet than ever before, and that number grows daily.

IOW, it's not that the American people are dumb... they're just lied to. That's altogether different, and thankfully starting to seriously swing the other way because We, the People, can communicate faster than ever before. And unlike prior times, our words stay there for a while when we say something. That's the true purpose of the internet in action- to gather and exhibit information. Although that wasn't its original purpose, what we have available now is an awesomely powerful tool if we but use it properly.

We're seeing that in action here, with the Zogby poll and the 9/11 Omission Report. More and more people will know about this as a result.

Print the article out. Take it to work. When nobody's in the break room, lay it on the table. Easy.

Now to go get that black ink cart I need at the moment...

[Minstrel Boy]

146. And it's so easy for people to be uninformed,

even those who believe they're informed, if they rely on the mainstream media.

It's a particular problem in America with its military-industrial media, but it's not just an American problem. Without the Net, we'd miss much of the real news.

[Dancing_Dave]

11. Summer of Truth in New York City!

Check out all the events going on now at http://summeroftruth.org . :think: :hippie: :toast:

[Radius]

13. There is a Lie, a damned lie, and then there are statistics

N=808
NY state population 20 million.

Commissioned by 9/11truth.org
Would you trust a pnac sponsored poll?

I'm sure you are all familiar with push polling.

Roosevelt had prior knowledge of Japan's attack..umm no. Remember this was not the first bombing. Goverments leave paper trails. The CIA/NSA whoever would not expose its self to cover a president. Presidents come and go, they have been in place for decades. Hey maybe clinton had prior knowledge of the cole attack, umm no.

What do the judicial and executive branch gain by allowing the destruction of the economy and the destruction of the pentagon and the capitol. Read the 9/11 report.

oh and.
snip>
Slight weights were added to region, party, age, race, religion, and gender to more accurately reflect the population. Margins of error are higher in sub-groups.

The statistical methods used to gather the info is not online, nor is the raw data.

[rawstory]

14. So, Zogby does polls for the WSJ and we 'trust' them

I trust Zobgy, though I'm willing to concede that Americans are, by nature, conspiracy theorists.

[Radius]

20. Polls

I distrust polls in general. I had to sit through plenty of statistics and polls are very easy to manipulate.

The exact question asked can swing results wildly.


Do you think that the administration had prior..
Is it possible "" "

Huge difference.

Occam was a smart guy.

[Minstrel Boy]

29. "Occam was a smart guy"

True.

And those who invoke his name before doing their homework should follow his lead.

[Radius]

35. Try

The Puzzle palace and Body of secrets, James Bramford, Al q operatives were being tracked before this happened. Before bush was in office. The entire intelligence structure failed us. If the CIA could diredt blame it would.

They did damage to us assets all over the world. They bragged about it on tape. Video fucking tape, disliking bush and believing he was accomplice before the fact and guilty of high treason are quite different.

[stickdog]

135. Who bragged about what on video fucking tape?

Yes, we knew all about many of the operatives we fingered within 2 days for the 9/11 attack.

No, that doesn't prove a failure of intelligence.

No, Occam's Razor doesn't apply to historical human events, and certainly not in the manner you seem to think it does.

[Radius]

150. Osama on the mic

Osama and his egyptian doctor were bragging about the unexpected success of the NY attacks.

Just like they did for the Cole attacks and the Embassy attacks. Got wide play.

Al-jizera may have it archived.

Haven't seen much footage of osama these days. I miss his whit and dry humor.

[Sterling]

161. Sorry that one is way tired.

I have yet to see any video where Osama admits anything. If you have one please show it. I would love the chance to post the side by side shots of fat Osama and skinny Osama again.

Given that OBL did and as far as anyone can tell still works with or for the Bush family I hardly think he is innocent in the big picture anymore than PNAC/Bush.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Radius]

15. Other half

On my frequent trips to NY I always seem to meet the half that thinks terrorists attacked the towers after failing to blow them up in '93.

[TahitiNut]

22. Gee. That's a shame.

:eyes:

[Minstrel Boy]

26. "Goverments leave paper trails"

Former CIA director Richard Helms, "The Man Who Kept the Secrets," used to say "If you want to keep a secret, don't put it in writing."

Allen Dulles' advice was "If you want to keep a secret, then pretend to share it."

Two things to remember when counting upon a government's paper trail.

[Radius]

33. The real question.

Do you really believe the POTUS had prior knowledge of an attack on NYC and Washington? Delivered by an Intellligence service and did nothing about it? An intelligence service derided and dragger through the mud in the 9/11 comission.

You are talking about high treason. If 50% of the country believed this was even possible, never mind true, everyone would go nuts. Including the millitary.

If you were producing intelligence would you risk high treason charges for your salary, never mind morals? Death penalty.

Do you think the intelligence community at that many levels would not leak this?

Do you see how much classified information is leaked to the NY times, damaging information, abu graib. Somebody realized that treating iraqis like that is horrible, and you think the same people would sit silent and let us get killed at home.

Sorry, my BS detector puts this in the alcoa pile.

[Pallas180]

39. Well, look at Sibel Edmonds. Out of 100's of people

working in her section in the FBI, one was the only one
to speak up about warnings being hidden. Sibel Edmonds.

How long did Iran Contra go on - and how many leaked it?

How long did Nixon's plumbers plumb and only one leaked it?

How many FBI came forward like Colleen Frowley (spelling)> one

People tend to be afraid of getting killed, and/or losing their
job and being blackballed from ever getting another job. And then
there are those whose philosophy is keep your head low and dont
involve yourself in anything that isn't your business.

Isn't that true?

[Minstrel Boy]

40. No, it's not about the POTUS at all.

I'm not even convinced he had post facto knowledge of the attacks. No one but debunkers suggest the strawman that the 9/11 plot was conceived by the 40-watt light behind the dead eyes of Dubya.

But yes, it's high treason. So what? You know what they say about none daring to call it such if it prospers. And man, has it prospered. Factions of the State apparatus shot the president in the street 40 years ago, and they've gotten away with it for 40 years, and more besides. MLK, RFK, October Surprise, the CIA's introduction of crack to the LA underclass, the theft of 2000 and all the rest.

These are not discrete conspiracies. These are symptoms of the criminalization of the state by the endemic, deep political nexus of criminal, intelligence, industrial and military interests.

[Radius]

45. I respect your opinion,

I just disagree. No one won anything on 9/11. Fundies just finished what they started in '93.

I enjoy a good conspiracy theory, but just don't see one here.

[foo_bar]

121. who are you talking to?

[JSJ]

141. hisself n/t

[Radius]

151. Tree view, Response to Minstrel Boy

My response is visually linked to minstrel boy. Like I said I respect his opinion. Just don't agree with the validity of this poll. My opinion, not trying to change yours.

[stickdog]

136. So what about the Gulf of Tonkin incident and Operation Northwoods

and even the sinking of the Maine, for God's sake?

Did these events just never happen, or did our leaders just suddenly become more ethically inclined?

[Pallas180]

37. Radius

It's not the government who gainsfinancially by ruining this economy - it's members of the government in private business -

It is this particular government who gains by killing the Constitution
and guaranteed rights - by moving toward a fascist dictatorship, because they are globalists and are moving toward uber control of all countries of the world. Regimentation. Bring down American salaries,
to third world pay level or as close as they can get it.

That means more profit for the Corporations who are running this country (and the world). It's dollar and cents. Bottom Line. And you don't get a gold watch - and if you starve with no pension - well, it's survival of the fittest in "The New World Order".

The Federal Reserve, WTO, and IMF gain by demanding and enforcing cuts
in spending on social services, wages, unions, strip the country to the bones because this country is deeply in financial debt to them - if money is not spent on social programs - the banks obtain their
money and interest more assuredly.

America has been G-8'd. Third world countried. Banana republic'd.

The bank owns our mortgage and is dictating terms, is the easiest way to put it.

See?

[Radius]

41. To Big

The government is composed of thousands of fiefdoms. They all fight and backstab. CIA would not take the fall for 9/11 if it could say we gave the pres documentation a week before. Their interest is to preserve their power and budget.

My point is that no one group can manipulate data and not get called. Plenty of classified info leaks. I cited abu graib, I'm sure the army would liked to release on its terms, didn't happen. That material was classified.

The fed rates slid and banks lost money, so did the corporations. Insurance companies had to pay Billions in claims, removing money from the markets. Lower rates increase the amount of currency in the system and decrease profit for financial institutions. Banks make more with a higher fed rate.

Your mortgage is sold as a commodity on the open market. Most people have their mortgage is sold many times over its life. Lower rates make this less profitable.

Not everyone was hurt by this. Where I am and our NY office there have been no layoffs and salaries go up at the same rate they did before. At least in my area.

The only tangible effect 9/11 security has had on me is now when I fly I wear tennis shoes and a belt with a plastic buckle, so I can cruise through security.

[Pallas180]

88. Radius, you said

"The fed rates slid and banks lost money, so did the corporations. Insurance companies had to pay Billions in claims, removing money from the markets. Lower rates increase the amount of currency in the system and decrease profit for financial institutions. Banks make more with a higher fed rate."

No, no.

Banks are making more money right now than they ever have. With the
lower rates. More people will borrow money at the lower rates and have. Interst rates and banking rates are at the hightest they've ever been. 28 percent and more on some cards. Want to deposit money to your bank - you;re charged 35 cents per deposit..want a copy
of your bank statement? $3.00 per statement.

Insurance companies paid billions in claims..??? no no no.

So many millions were contributed by the public, that the insurance companies benefited. If you received money from the 911 fund, that amount was deducted from the amount the insurance company had to come up with...

Radius, you have information, but it's 1/2 the information...Fox news
has to be the explanation.

Please, they are such propaganda, or Rush, just listen to another
station for awhile. (although none are much better)

[Radius]

93. Uh,

Insurance companies paid property loss claims on the buildings, reinsurers to be more accurate.

I bank at a credit union so no wacky fees.

The WSJ is a great source. The only paper in the us that is written beyond the 8th grade level.

Banks sell mortgages on the open market, lower rates reduce the money the underwriters, loan owner, makes. Most banks dump your mortgage within a year of when you buy it. Their books look bad if they carry to much mortgage liability.

Low rates also help people buy more with the income they have.

Rates go up people are tied into loans and cant refi down banks are happy. Had to sit through a bunch of economics as well as statistics. Never use it, but they said it would be handy some day.

I listed the news sources I read. Fox is worthless as is cnn, the format is set up for children. News masked in fancy production at best.

[Eloriel]

112. Radius

You're certainly entitled to your opinion; however, from my perspective (and I'm sure the perspective of MANY, MANY DUers who've been members for a very long time), your opinion is based on a dearth of knowledge. Period. CooperativeResearch.org is a good place to start filling in the gaps -- SHOULD you be of a mind to. (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/ -- you want "Complete 911 Timeline" on the right.)

As for conspiracies being too hard to keep, no. You're deluding yourself there too.

For example, there were people working for Enron who knew or should have known what Enron and other companies were pulling off in California. Why didn't they come forward? Or did they? SOME were handsomely compensated for their silence and complicity. Of others, who would have believed them, the Texas mainstream media? Hardly. Ken Lay was the Golden Boy and Enron the Golden Goose. Should they have gone to "the authorities"? Who?? Texas prosecutors and others wouldn't have touched it with a 10-foot pole. DoJ? Probably not -- not without a lot of proof, which is often in very short supply until a full investigation is conducted (little Catch-22 there). FERC? Haha. SEC? Haha.

Further, do you know what can happen to whistleblowers? Where Enron is concerned, have you ever heard of Cliff Baxter? Have you noted, as another poster pointed out, the treatment Sibel Edmonds is receiving? How 'bout Danny Casolaro? James Hatfield? And then there are whistleblowers who are relegated to the non-mainstream ("alternative") media (Sibel Edmonds has fit this category tho broken free of it to a certain extent), and you of all people know what that means: zero credibility.

There are other factors involved to explain why and how conspiracies CAN be kept secret, as well. For example, for 9-11 it seems certain to me there was a stand down order for the military. (Proof, you ask? No, I don't have proof, tho I did see an extremely credible-sounding post to that effect not long after 9-11.) Would you REALLY expect any military person to leak that? And if so, to WHOM, exactly? NYT? Washington Post? Both of those can't even ask the OBVIOUS questions about a war of aggression, let alone deal with something like that where the prevailing mythology tilts so strongly against it. Michael Moore, perhaps? Absolutely, but one small problem: POOF! in an instant, there goes the credibility again, except to those of us already on his wavelength.

Etc. Etc.

Anyway, here are some links you might like to explore (in addition to the CooperativeResearch link above):

CONSPIRACIES
Conspiracies: Self-interest, fear, inertia, values
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=5535&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes

Also see Information Architecture of Evil (read down) at http://www.zpluspartners.com/zblog/

Paranoid Shift
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/011004Hasty/011004hasty.html

Can huge conspiracies work? Or would someone talk?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1695698#1695780

[Radius]

113. Thanks(nt)

[leesa]

128. You are soooo far behind in your reading and learning

I'm sure you will catch up if you stay.

[stickdog]

133. What did the federal government gain from the Maine, the Lusitania and

the Gulf of Tonkin?

You act like this sort of stuff has never happened before.

Maybe it's time to grow up.

[Radius]

148. Ahh

I remember the maine..

The thought of the day was spanish mine, I think National Geographic debunked that in mid 90's. Alas everyone involved was dead. Interesting how the pictures brought the war and now the pictures support create dissent against it. T hersh would be interested in how times changed. Spain lost out.

Lusitania was torpedoed, yes it probably had weapons on board, but germany killed plenty of nice people. We get drawn into a european slaughter, they do this very well in the 20th century.

Tonkin of course was a scam. Everything I have read reports this. LBJ a war criminal? History will decide.

But I'm jush an Ill informed moderate not willing to jump with both feet into something that does not make sense.

I am not trying to go beyond the results of this poll.

[stickdog]

178. 'Tonkin of course was a scam.'

Yes. So the obvious next question is which of your arguments against 9/11 complicity don't apply equally to the Gulf of Tonkin incident?

Please allow me to help. The correct answer is zero. Meaning that, so far at least, you have nothing but your blind faith keeping you from seeing what almost everybody who has studied the events of 9/11 closely can see.

The Condensed 9/11 Primer With Supporting Footnotes:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=13762

[TahitiNut]

16. So much for sneering at the "tinfoil" ... this can only build, imho.

Maybe Cynthia McKinney should run for Mayor of New York. :evilgrin:

[Nordic]

18. and a lot of these people are still voting for Bush?

WTF?

This is why I don't trust polls

[Sterling]

164. I think that reflects the unbelievable nature of the official story.

I know some repukes who think it was the Clinton's. I don't think it is a Dem v Repub thing it's a the official story is bullshit so speculation about what really happened transcends party affiliation.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

19. kick

[Deere_John]

21. In other words: Do you believe Bush helped kill 3,000 people?

...and half in NYC say yes.

Why don't they just run Charles Manson? Smaller body count.

[MisterP]

27. sometimes, Bush has Charles Manson eyes

it's EXTREMELY creepy

[Minstrel Boy]

32. All those times messing up his face "falling off a bike"

perhaps were botched attempts at carving a swastika.

[realFedUp]

23. The PDB did say that bin Laden intended to attack soon

and Bush did nothing but clear tumbleweeds....

[Cocoa]

24. everyone keeps telling us how great that commission was

I'm glad so few are buying it.

[robbedvoter]

25. Only half? I'm disappointed.

NY Post said BUSH KNEW, what more admission is there?

[Pallas180]

31. Hi Minstrel Boy - that poll is great news. It prolly

means the rest of the country thinks that way too.

Can you move this to General Discussion and let's start proving 911
was a Made It Happen for MONEY, POWER, RESOURCES, & O I L

:hi:

[kayell]

30. Shhh, don't tell anyone. We wouldn't like the freepers to think we're

a bunch of wild eyed conspirancy theorists now would we? Only a very few lunatics think like this. :eyes:

Oh, by the way, don't forget to wear your suit when you protest.

[kayell]

34. How do these people live with themselves???

"Despite the acute legal and political implications of this accusation, nearly 30% of registered Republicans and over 38% of those who described themselves as "very conservative" supported the claim."

Presumably most of these repukes and very conservative people will vote for *. Do they our govt was complicit in the murder of 3000 people, but it's OK, because it was all in a good cause? I really believe that some people can justify anything if they work hard enough at it. Can't you just see them? "Yes, it was tragic, but really it had to be done. If * hadn't allowed it to happen, the country would never have woken up. Something far worse could have happened."

PNACs Pearl Harbor plan probably had much the same reasoning.

:puke:

[Radius]

36. Defies

Basic Aristotelian logic, doesn't it?

A poll is all in how you ask a question. Phraise the question right and you can get anything you want.

[kayell]

Here's the link for the actual questions

http://www.911truth.org/dossier/zogby911.pdf

I gather you doubt these survey numbers. Why?

[Pallas180]

43. KAY - PNAC is also Zbrinski's Pearl harbor plan - Reagan

is the one who had Oliver North write the Fema plan which essentially
makes the Constituiton null and void, a police state, since REagan expected Americans to refuse to go to war against Panama and Grenada -
but he was part of the "Grand Plan"

As far as any of us can see who have put many many pieces together, the "Grand Plan" is to re-constitute the rule of the Corporations over
the world - another name has to be the Fourth Reich.

And Minstrel Boy has posted extensively on that.

[Radius]

46. And

The pres and his supposed conspirators could have moved to suspend habeus corpus, like during the civil war, but didn't

I have little doubt if they had asked on 9/12 for that power it would have been granted.

The Fourth Reich and freeper new world order conspiracy theories are all equally entertaining.

So far none of this hase come true. Every one wants to see orwell, far left and far right, its just not there.

[Pallas180]

51. Ah - another person who believes in the magic bullet

which ran around the open car and made 4 bullet holes in
President Kennedy.

I'm sorry. I don;t believe in the tooth fairy.

Some "conspiracy" theories are not theory, but are supported by
absolute fact. One just has to be willing to look for the facts
or read the facts.

If they had instituted police state immediately, there would have
been an uprising across this country that made the million woman march and yesterday's march look like a committee meeting.

Additionally, this government well knows there are militias out
there in the woods and the mountains armed to the teeth, who would
become the "insurgents", American insurgents. Thus no suspension of
Habeus Corpus could be instituted.It would be difficult to have the national guard put down an uprising when the national guard is in Iraq.

What they have done is slowly implement martial law, without announcing it, except in certain southern areas, for if they were to move on Habeus Corpus in one full swoop, it would leave to another American civil and guerilla war.


This government needs the time to hire another 50,000 mercenaries - ahem - "world peace force" and as reported, dimson has asked Congress for $660 million for that purpose.

One should read and educate oneself before denigrating and laughing at others who have read and researched the matter.
It's easy to make snide remarks and tell people to put on their tin foil hats, when you have not researched or read what is being done in this country and in the republican weighted congress.

Now why, What value is there to you in opposing anyone who believes this government is and was and has been part of a plan to attack this country itself and accomplished it on 911 ?

[Minstrel Boy]

70. Pallas, you kick ass.

Just wanted to tell ya, in case you didn't know. :hi:

[Pallas180]

78. (((Minstrel Boy))) I dont understand what

these people have invested in stopping those who dont believe
911 was completely carried out by external forces.

Do You?


Hey MB, thanks for the vote of confidence!

[kayell]

81. I'd like to second that compliment nt

[Pallas180]

90. Ahh. Sweeping Bow to yo'all. Made me feel good and one for (((Kayell)))

:hi:

[Radius]

75. "Respect"

your opinion were the words I used. I just don't see it here.

I've read thousands of pages on the Kennedy assination and could hold another thread on just that.

I have not attacked any ones position, only stated my own.

The value is that it is outside the realm of fact. We can argue which religion is more valid with the same constraints.

Read my posts, tin foil had has not been said by me..

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Radius]

152. radius, ahh

used that nic for years. tribe, unreal, first dial in bbs account.

I wish I had a cooshy pr job. No I actually am a SA.

Nice smear though. Did you read what I said?

[Pallas180]

52. Ah - another person who believes in the magic bullet

which ran around the open car and made 4 bullet holes in
President Kennedy.

I'm sorry. I don;t believe in the tooth fairy.

Some "conspiracy" theories are not theory, but are supported by
absolute fact. One just has to be willing to look for the facts
or read the facts.

If they had instituted police state immediately, there would have
been an uprising across this country that made the million woman march and yesterday's march look like a committee meeting.

Additionally, this government well knows there are militias out
there in the woods and the mountains armed to the teeth, who would
become the "insurgents", American insurgents. Thus no suspension of
Habeus Corpus could be instituted.It would be difficult to have the national guard put down an uprising when the national guard is in Iraq.

What they have done is slowly implement martial law, without announcing it, except in certain southern areas, for if they were to move on Habeus Corpus in one full swoop, it would leave to another American civil and guerilla war.


This government needs the time to hire another 50,000 mercenaries - ahem - "world peace force" and as reported, dimson has asked Congress for $660 million for that purpose.

One should read and educate oneself before denigrating and laughing at others who have read and researched the matter.
It's easy to make snide remarks and tell people to put on their tin foil hats, when you have not researched or read what is being done in this country and in the republican weighted congress.

Now why, What value is there to you in opposing anyone who believes this government is and was and has been part of a plan to attack this country itself and accomplished it on 911 ?

[kayell]

48. It is ever thus, but even more so now, it looks like they are winning.

I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. ... corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. - Abraham Lincoln

[Radius]

50. Evil Corporations, Teapot dome

have been trying to destroy us since 1921..
I think they would have succeded by now.
Why kill the goose that lays their golden egg. Corporations thrive here because we are a consumer driven economy. If consumers are wiped out, they are wiped out.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/te/TeapotDo.html

http://faculty.ucc.edu/egh-damerow/Int%20Economy.htm

This evil corporation idea has been around since the napoleonic era. So far I have yet to be screwed by a corporation. Corporations made the laptop I'm using, the wireless router, itunes, my car, insulin, etc..

I see scandals yes but no widespread conspiracy to kill 3000 new yorkers to prop up the bottom line.

[kayell]

55. Allowing the existance of corporations, and allowing unlimited corporate

power are very different things. You seem unusually naive about many, many notorious things that corporations have been involved in over the years, not to mention the growth of their power and their consolidation. You are probably ignoring ways that you have been injured by poorly regulated corporations - higher software prices, outrageous drug prices, poor quality medical care because of HMO limitations on doctors time.....

Here's a survey question for you. Do you agree, or disagree with the following statement? “What’s good for General Motors is good for the rest of America.”.

[kayell]

60. If you didn't like that survey question, here's another one for you.

Do you agree, or disagree with the following statement? "Greed is good"

[Radius]

71. No and sort of

GM is one of many companies thet do business here. They do pay good wages to tens of thousands of people and are a union shop so they are better than some. I know a good bit about corporations and harbor no idealistic concept about them. They are out to advance their interests. Their power is checked by anti trust laws. Ma Bell is an example of these laws applied.

Motivitation to make money is good and innovative things have been done in the market because someone sees a chance to make money. Greed is usually meant as taking profit while harming someone. I think profit does not have to be at someones expense.

HMO plans are not mandated by law. You can buy PPO based insurance as an individual or corporation. HMO's are designed to cut cost and is a lower form of coverage. You can't buy a escort and expect a rolls royce. You (should) get what you pay for.

[kayell]

76. How do you feel about corporations moving jobs offshore?

Being from NC, this must be something you have thought about. Is what is good for the corporations good for America?

[Radius]

96. nope

In a market based economy undercutting your market is bad.

Some movement of jobs is unavoidable. Ford builds cars in mexico, Honda in ohio.

But as a rule outsourcing a job a machine can't do is a bad idea.

[Pallas180]

82. Radius, I realize you're trying, but your info is a bit

out of date.

There are hardly any anti-trust laws anymore.

Anti-trust means no monopoly so there can be no price fixing.

The oil and gas companies have been re-joined

Banks, Insurance Companies, Brokerage firms have been re-joined.

Radio and TV stations have been allowed under Powell to monopolize.

And a PPO is another form of HMO.

But you get a C for trying sweetie.

Study. Then come back.

[Radius]

100. Wrong

I sold group insurance to pay my way through school. Licenced, I know all kinds of worthless insurance info. Not in that line of work for years but..

a PPO and HMO are not the same, not by a long shot. They are basically different types of price control agreements agreed to by doctors. Docs agree on their fees to get network membership and build clients. Lots of established docs accept neither. Insurance is like cars there range in quality and features based on cost.

Insurance is basically a pyramid scheme. PPO allows you access to whatever without a referral. HMO does not. Etc, etc, There are many differences, but basically HMO's suck and cost less for a reason.

[DemBones DemBones]

69. I see in your profile that you only joined DU a week ago. . .

though you have made nearly 300 posts.

[Radius]

73. Bored, enjoy a good discussion. Beats TV (NT)

[Pallas180]

83. Republican widening your horizons? Tired of Fox News?

try reading the UK Guardian - British newspaper. Reading foreign papers we often find out more truth than our media is telling us.

[Radius]

91. You mean

the moscow times
le monde
bbc (are they evil, you tell me)
al jiz
al arabia
der spiegel (my favorite, keeps my weak german up)

They are all evil corporations though (right?) and tend to publish what sells in their own area.

The only free press...

[kayell]

74. Radius aka Gordon Gecko has been busy.

[Radius]

77. sorry missed that one.

If you thing I am someone else check with the mods. They can tell if I am spoofing. Not my style..

I'll assume thats not a compliment.

[kayell]

84. "Greed is good" - Gordon Gecko

from a movie you should have watched. Wall Street.

Gordon Gecko was the classic example of an ammoral capitalist that believed that money was the ultimate measure of good.

[Radius]

89. oh yeah

knew it sounded familiar.

greed=bad
place where my indian neighbor can start a business and support his family within 7 years of moving here=Good

Money existed before the Unites States and good and bad don't really describe it well.

[Pallas180]

94. Radius. Money is good. Greed is bad. How much is enough?

"He who dies with the most toys, wins"

???

if you have a million is it enough?

if you have 500 million?

if you have a billion?

how much is enough. ?

How much can you spend?

How many "things" do you need ?

How much do you need to live comfortably ?

Do you think the billionaires really need the tax rebate?

Or does a family with children going to college or needing health care
need it more?


Don't answer. They're rhetorical questions for you to think about.

[Pallas180]

92. Radius. LOL. you don't get out much. It was a movie about

Wall Street and greed and a very handsome Michael Douglas played
Gordon Gecko, as I remember.

[Radius]

103. Seen it..

Good movie, remembering stuff seems to get harder the older i get..

[Sterling]

163. I don't think they want to destroy us just own us.

And they do. So there goes your strawman theory.

[Mike Niendorff]

158. re: Republicans and fundies

At risk of throwing some cold water onto things here ...

If you poll a fundie/Republican/radical-RWer, a *lot* of them believe in "government foreknowledge". Of course, by "government", they really mean "Bill Clinton". So, caveat emptor.


MDN

[Eurobabe]

42. holy shit batman!!

gothamites know the deal. LIHOP.

[Pallas180]

44. Nope. Uh-uh

made it happen.

[daleo]

47. It would be interesting to see how the questions were phrased

That can move a poll a considerable amount. Still, this can't be easily dismissed. As to how some people can believe in some degree of LIHOP (even MIHOP), yet still support the president, it is a bit of a mystery. Some may have wanted a war with Islam anyway. Some may have wanted the oil, or to get rid of Saddam Hussein.

I am sure that not everyone who believed FDR ignored warnings on Pearl Harbor in 1944 was necessarily against the war. They may have thought it was a necessary ruse to get public support for fighting Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan. Or, they might have just felt the country was in too deep to not support the war by then. The same dynamics may be at work here. Not that I think they are parallel situations historically, just musing on how support for apparently contradictory positions can be reconciled.

[Wakeup_America]

54. I saw a lot of marchers yesterday

carrying 9/11 cover-up signs yesterday. What was that all about?

Food for thought for all the conspiracy theorists our there:

The head of the Pakistan Intelligent Service (ISI), Mahmoud Ahmad, came to the US a week before 9/11 and actually was having breakfast with Porter Goss (CIA head nominee) and Bob Graham literally as the terrorist attacks was taking place.

The significance of this is that before 9/11 Pakistan was a big supporter of Taliban and Al Qaeda, and more importantly Ahmad (according to FBI) through an associate of his had wired $100,000 to Atta, the 9/11 ring leader, a few weeks before the attacks. Ahmad was forced to retire a month later just before we invaded Afghanistan. These are all proven FACTS no BS. See the site below for more details:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO206A.html

[Radius]

106. BINGO, You Get It

You recognize that an 808 person survey seems incosistent.

The answer is in the questions.

My question is why the startling results?

[daleo]

130. Well I am actually a bit of conspiracy believer myself

But I do have to do statistical analyses and interpretation of polling data for my job at times, so I appreciate the need to see the phrasing and context of the questions.

That said, even a push poll rarely gets results of this magnitude if it is not capturing a fairly important underlying sentiment. It certainly represents an uneasiness among a great deal of the population about the official story. The fact that the responses to some of the sub-items are contradictory probably shows this is still at a sort of unformed hunch level, rather than being fully thought out. It still means trouble for the government, in my opinion.

[graphixtech]

49. Sounds like Critical Mass -

This confirms exactly what 9/11 activists are already aware of.
Strong suspicion about the official story of 9/11 is much more
widespread than acknowledged by the corporate media.

Thank you Zogby!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Paul Hellyer photo by Kyle Hence)

An Interview with Paul Hellyer,
Former Defense Minister of Canada
The following interview was conducted by Kyle Hence of 911CitizensWatch.org and Bill Douglas of 911Visibility.org, on May 27, 2004, at the International 9-11 Inquiry in Toronto, Canada.

(Paul Hellyer held the Canadian office equivalent to Secretary of Defense in the U.S., and was Deputy Prime Minister, the Canadian equivalent to Vice President.)

Paul Hellyer:
Why didn't you know this was going to happen? You spend billions and billions with spooks all over the world and surely you should have known what was going on. And, so I began to be concerned about that. And then questions were raised by others. Why did the President just sit in the schoolroom when he heard the news? Why did he not acknowledge that he already knew what was going on? As a former Minister of National Defense, when the news came out I had to wonder. Why did airplanes fly around for an hour and a half without interceptors being scrambled from Andrews ? Is it Andrews right next to the capitol?

Kyle Hence: Yes, that's correct.

Paul Hellyer: With a quick action alert they should have been there in five minutes or ten minutes. If not, as the Minister of National Defense, which in the United States is the Secretary of Defense, I would want to say "why not?"

Kyle Hence: Does it disturb you, or do you have concerns about your neighbors to the south that there's been no inquiry at a defense level relative to the specific failure to scramble jets?

Paul Hellyer: I think the inquiry has been very shallow and superficial. And I would like to see a much tougher more in-depth inquiry. The evidence is that some people were allowed to fly out of the United States after the attack when American citizens were not allowed to fly in. And Canadians had the pleasure, I guess in a sense, of the company of tens of thousands, several tens of thousands of them in Canada for a few days, especially in Newfoundland where the people were most gracious in looking after them. But why were some members of the Bin Laden family allowed to fly out of the United States? Why?

There are so many questions. What is going wrong here? Or was there something going wrong? How much did they actually know?
(more)

Kyle Hence: It seems like there's a fundamental lack of accountability and transparency, especially now in the wake of 9-11. Does that concern you in regards to what's happening in America with the Patriot Act, and the projection of American military power?

Paul Hellyer: Oh, very, very much so. I'm very disturbed about a lack of transparency. Everyone talks about it, and no one is willing to come clean, as it were. I just had lunch, interestingly enough with the designer of the Avro Arrow which was cancelled more than 40 years ago and one of the things we were discussing were the lies that people in government and the Air Force told at the time. And I guess this makes me all the more suspicious. If they lied about that, what else were they lying about? So, we were agreeing that you had to get behind the superficial and the spin and try and get at the truth. It's very difficult. It takes a lot of time. But, we have to try and get the truth. Because unless we do, as the good book says, "seek the truth and the truth will set you free." And I think that's what we've got to try to do and I hope that somebody has the courage and the persistence to keep at it until we can get it.
(more)
http://www.septembereleventh.org/alerts/hellyer.php

Contribute to discussion!
http://www.septembereleventh.org/forum/ubbthreads.php


edit: added former Defense Minister of Canada, Paul Hellyer recent interview

[Radius]

53. Bet

my pinky finger this turns out to be BS. I will remove it with a maet cleaver if evidence is ever produced the administration or agency had prior knowledge.

Pile it up with UFO's, New World order, Elders of Zion, etc.

People love conspiracy theory. Fact is boring and doesn't read or sell well.

The press would LOVE to get evidence that 9/11 was a coverup carried out by the russian mob and yukos(sp) to get america to buy russian oil. However there is no fact to support anything other than the fundies finishing up a fucked up job from '93.

[kayell]

56. And some people love coincidence theories

and will ignore any amount of evidence or circumstances that scream for more investigation. They will even go to the lengths of comparing those asking legitimate, needed questions to UFO theorists.

I wonder why?

[Radius]

80. Rules

Occam and Aristotle were smart guys. I believe a lot of things done by corporations are wrong. I believe Ford should have been convicted of depraved indifference murder for the pinto.

There were facts and evidence on that. It held up. Hard fact accepted by a court as evidence in a trial.

I'm just saying there is no evidence published from a verified source on any news wire that even hints at prior knowledge.

Everything else is implied. Every event creates loss and profit for someone. Some profited by the cole attack. Does that mean ingalls ship yard bought bill clinton and he set it up so they could repair the ship? NO.

BTW New World Order is floated by extreme right folks saying the UN plans to take over the soverignty of the US. Another conspiracy not supported by fact.

[Pallas180]

101. Radius, I'm glad you agree

as you said, "extreme right wing folks"

http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_013500_bushgeorge.htm

quote of President George H. W. Bush " while proclaiming the advent of a "new world order," Bush organized an international coalition and sent 540,000 American troops to liberate Kuwait after an Iraqi invasion."

Is that mainstream enough of a publication for you?

And you can't be serious that because it's in no mainstream media
it can't be true.

Things have changed. The mainstream gets a lot of its news from the
internet.

[Radius]

108. yep

Thousand points of light and all.

Some of the MM types take it as UN overthrow, but our rejection of the world court seems to discredit the militia folks on fact.

[Pallas180]

115. Uh - didnt georgie-porgie essentially try to overthrow the UN by telling

them to kissoff ?

that is until Iraq got out of hand and he didnt have enough American boys and girls to be killed - then he went to the UN begging for a force from the UN ---and guess what? they said, well georgie-prgie since you tried to coup d'etat us , make us obsolete, and essentially
overthrow us - we aint agonna help you.

Oh I definitely think dimwit tried to overthrow the UN, and I;m not even a militia type.

:)

[Radius]

149. UN

My point isn't about the UN. Only the poll results. The results don't seem logical. Evangelical types believing Bush had prior knowledge and still voting for him? Just weird.

The questions asked would give incite.

The UN was brought up as a rebuttal to the PNAC and Michigan Militias' different point of view on "New World Order"

You can't overthrow something that has no sovereign power. You can go against it but that is a very different topic.

[Sterling]

165. MM types?

?

[Radius]

168. Michigan Millitia, extreme right wing(nt)

[bacchant]

58. There are more facts contradicting the official account than

supporting it. Stay tuned (channel other than faux), I guarantee, someday you WILL give up that pinky.

[Pallas180]

65. Radius, that really doesn't make sense

nor does your insistence that 911 theories are equal to UFO theories.

Apparently you don;t know that the New World Order is a fact, as you compare it to belief in UFO's. It has been included in George Herbert Walker Bush's speeches as president.

And since the press is owned by 6 major corporations in this decade instead of 100's of companies, and they are the same conglomerates who
also produce munitions and profit from wars, the press WOULD NOT LOVE
or reveal evidence of a coverup of 9 11, as you suggest.

I write this not to argue with you but to try to inform you of FACTS
you seem unaware.

There are many books quoted on the internet and other research done
which you could avail yourself

[Eloriel]

119. Again, Radius

You REALLY need to educate yourself. Quickly, before you embarrass yourself further.

Here are some more resources for you:

The Coincidence Theorist's Guide to 9-11 (Minstrel Boy)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2160541

The DU 9/11 reading room
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1836172#

Not gonna let Minstrel Boy's "Coincidence Theorist's Guide" be archived
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2176991#2177007

And there's actually a whole forum at DU devoted to 9/11. Check it out.

Edited to add this link, which has an important link on an entirely different subject:

Wanna know where today's Fascism came from? Look here 8/29/04
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2282969#2283235

[kayell]

57. Yep, the tipping point.

Now that this many people are acknowleged as having reasonable doubts about the official story, more will feel it acceptable to question also.

[buycitgo]

59. hey....MB

I met an East German woman in NYC two years ago

she says EVERYBODY in Germany thinks they not only knew about it, but DID it

FWIW

[kayell]

61. They get a lot more actual reporting in Germany than we do here.

[buycitgo]

63. that's one of the things we talked about

she was surprised I knew as much as I did

she'd been living here for a few months and was appalled at how little interest people had in news/politics

she talked at LENGTH how ignorant most americans she'd met were; how insular, provincial, uninterested in the rest of the world

she was a little arrogant about that, but I had to agree with much of what she said about that

but, like many Euros, she didn't have much taste in la musica

[kayell]

66. It's ironic

The East Germans, after years under a repressive regime, are far more aware of politics and the actuality of what a regime will do to remain in power and further it's aims than Americans are. Of course our brainwashing has been far more subtle and effective than any thing the old style Soviets and their minions ever dreamed of.

Kinder, gentler, compassionate totalitarianism.

[JohnyCanuck]

87. And Speaking of Brainwashing.........

The puppet Bush regime is using new, aggressive forms of brainwashing to change the very way Americans think and feel.

This is the psychological dimension of the "High Cabal's" general onslaught against American workers, just as the "war on terrorism" is the military dimension and corporate crime and tax cuts for the rich comprise the economic dimension.

We are living under the beginning stages of a military dictatorship in precisely the same way that 1930s Germans suffered under the Nazi regime.

As in the case of Nazi Germany, state-sponsored propaganda (brainwashing) is a vital part of the Bush regime's strategy.

Above quote from "Brainwashing America" by Dr. Norman Livergood, former head of the Dept. of Artificial Intelligence at the US Army War College.

[Pallas180]

104. Cheeze. those of us on the internet and on DU are durned

lucky.

I've been wondering when they were going to start the subliminal flashing stuff on tv.

"As in the case of Nazi Germany, state-sponsored propaganda (brainwashing) is a vital part of the Bush regime's strategy.

Above quote from "Brainwashing America" by Dr. Norman Livergood, former head of the Dept. of Artificial Intelligence at the US Army War College."

[JohnyCanuck]

118. Personally, I wouldn't worry about subliminal flashing stuff on TV

I'd be more concerned about stuff like this.

Psychic and Political Numbing in Preparations for War

While the Bush Administration prepares for war on Iraq with full-scale weapons production and troop deployments, more insidious conditioning for the public acceptance of war continues. In the face of repeated statements by Bush and the hawkish members of his ruling clique of the need for "regime change" in Iraq, international opinion has been forthright in its condemnation of such proposed aggression. However, in the absence of the mobilized outrage of the American people, the Washington power elite will be emboldened to carry out their war plans. Why the American public, so far, has been lackadaisical in its response to this saber rattling may be reflective of the increase of psychic and political numbing opportunistically manipulated by the Bush Administration since 9/11.

Psychic numbing, according to the psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton, builds on well-known defense mechanisms, such as repression, denial, and projection, to create an exclusion of feeling and disconnectedness. Aided by the surfeit of stimuli from televisual culture and media-manipulated images, people may tune out those realities and possibilities that threaten their own sense of connection to the world. In the case of 9/11, the Bush Administration quickly exploited the anger of the American people without allowing a grieving process to mature. Drowning out the voices of survivors and their families who opposed retaliation, war on Afghanistan was initiated. Begun as a campaign to seek and destroy Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda network, a network created by the CIA in the 1980's, the intervention in Afghanistan quickly became an exercise in imperial politics and the lethal arrogance of power.

In manufacturing consent for the war in Afghanistan, the corporate media deliberately initially excluded scenes of civilian deaths. Now, however, with additional reporting and investigation by world-wide news agencies and the United Nations, the American public is being confronted with the extensive violence visited upon the innocent Afghans. Nonetheless, the desensitizing of the American public to the deaths of these differently constituted others (by ethnicity, class, and nationality) is a form of psychic numbing that may allow for the larger massacre of civilians in Iraq.

<snip>

Part of the political numbing that the Bush Administration has visited on the American public is intimately connected to the fear and intimidation launched by the Ashcroft's jack-booted Department of Justice (sic). With overwhelming Congressional support, the USA Patriot Act was passed, establishing a wide variety of legal mechanisms to undermine the Bill of Rights. Although still used against those swarthy others, legislation is in place to deter real opposition to the policies of an increasingly authoritarian government. Added to this is the recent FBI reorganization, a reorganization that facilitates spying on the public without any court orders or even evidence of wrong-doing. Moreover, the Bush Administration has made clear its intent to deny constitutionally-mandated judicial oversight in its refusal to turn over documents to the judge overseeing one of the cases of a so-called enemy combatant."

Psychic and Political Numbing in Preparations for War by Fran Shor (and linked to from Brainwashing America).

and stuff like this:

The Character Myth

<snip>

Bush's handlers project the President as a man of character. His team has carefully crafted an image of him as a man who is strong and moral, someone who sticks to his principles and is capable of making tough decisions. This phenomenon was foretold by media philosopher Marshall McLuhan, who warned: "Politics will eventually be replaced by imagery. The politician will be only too happy to abdicate in favor of his image because the image will be much more powerful than he could ever be."

Theory soon became reality. Ronald Reagan was the first American politician to demonstrate the power of what I call the character myth, a project launched by his speechwriter Peggy Noonan, whose biography of him was titled When Character Was King. The character myth relies on the psychological phenomenon that a person who speaks frequently and passionately about morals is generally regarded as a moral person. According to the character myth, a person who demonstrates that he has "character" need not present any evidence in support of his policies or decisions. They are simply assumed to be correct, since they come from a person with the ineffable quality known as "character." Even though Reagan was divorced and many of his Hollywood friends hardly saw him as a paragon of morality, he managed to present himself in politics as an exemplar of "family values." Reagan was seen as having character for sticking to his principles. He was widely viewed as someone who cut taxes, even after actually raising them. Americans simply ignored all data that did not fit the myth.

Similarly, Bush's handlers use the rhetoric of morality to bypass people's resistance to his ideas and to convince them that they should not go beyond their core belief that "Bush is doing the right thing." This imagery of strength and morality is inspired by the ideas of conservative philosopher Leo Strauss, who has strongly influenced many within the inner circle of the Bush Administration. As James Atlas wrote in a piece on Strauss in the May 4 New York Times, "To theorists, the Bush administration's foreign policy is entirely a Straussian creation. Paul D. Wolfowitz, the deputy secretary of defense, has been identified as a disciple of Strauss; William Kristol, founding editor of The Weekly Standard, a must-read in the White House, considers himself a Straussian; Gary Schmitt, executive director of the Project for the New American Century, an influential foreign policy group started by Mr. Kristol, is firmly in the Strauss camp. One is reminded of Asa Leventhal, the hero of Saul Bellow's novel 'The Victim,' who asks his oppressor, a mysterious figure named Kirby Allbee, 'Wait a minute, what's your idea of who runs things?' For those who believe in the power of ideas, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to answer: the intellectual heirs of Leo Strauss." Strauss feared the mediocrity that he believed was inherent in democratic societies. He argued that when a strong political leader explains his policies he should develop a mythology for the consumption of the general public that hides his true motivations, because the people will not accept the boldness of the leader's initiatives if they are presented in an unvarnished fashion. This mythology should use the language of morality to mask the candidate's real interests, which are his own survival in power and his ability to continue to exert dominance over the populace.

The Character Myth (Also linked to from Brainwashing America)

And after all, Hitler and his buddy Herr Goebbels didn't need subliminal (or is that subliminable) flashing stuff on TV to accomplish their manipulation of German public opinion in the pre WWII days.

[MisterP]

124. not only does the mythology mask the leaders' intentions, it also

protects them.
Not only is * seen as a decisive Führer against the evilbrownskinturrsts, any policy dissent becomes an incrimation against the disagreers, turning them into supporters of the evilbrownskinturrsts.

[graphixtech]

62. Dr. Robert Bowman, Daniel Ellsberg many others question 9/11

Here is a recent letter from Dr. Robert Bowman:
(Credentials: Lieutenant Colonel, retired USAF;
President, Institute for Space & Security Studies;
Presiding Archbishop, United Catholic Church;
author, “Some Dare Call It Treason")

"Dear Fellow Patriot,
I urge each of you to get involved with the International 9/11 Truth movement as requested by Ed Asner in his recent letter to the anti-war community. Mr. Asner has stated in an eloquent, yet low-key way the case for all of us
to stand and work together until the truth about this “New Pearl Harbor” is seen and understood by all Americans.

"We simply cannot ignore the fact that elements of the US government at the highest levels may have committed treason and mass murder by purposely allowing 9/11 to happen. The scores of lies and contradictions that riddle
the official story have long been obvious, as have the thousands of lives and profiteered billions their 9/11-justified wars have cost.

"The 9/11 Commission has proved to be compromised, trivial and feckless, and it is now our time to act. We and the families of those lost have a right to know the truth!

"Please take a first step in that direction by reading “The New Pearl Harbor - Disturbing Questions about the Bush
Administration and 9/11” by Dr. David Ray Griffi n, and then visiting www.911truth.org for the latest news and for the latest news and information on how to get involved. There are many ways to fi ght for your country, and in 2004 the biggest war ways to fi ght for your country, and in 2004 the biggest war for justice, truth and freedom is now right here at home."

Dr. Robert M. Bowman
Lieutenant Colonel, retired USAF;
President, Institute for Space & Security Studies;
Presiding Archbishop, United Catholic Church;
author, “Some Dare Call It Treason"

(Bowman's letter among others in this package)

"In conjunction with 911Truth.Org, we mailed this 15-page 9/11 Truth document to over 400 peace and justice leaders throughout the United States. It features powerful statements from a dozen public servants, peace and justice leaders, researchers, and celebrities concerning important issues surrounding the events of 9/11 and the future direction of our world. Also included in our mailing was a copy of The New Pearl Harbor by David Ray Griffin.

It features 9/11 truth statements from: Paul Hellyer, Medea Benjamin, Daniel Ellsberg, Dr. Kevin Donaher, Ed Asner, Jim Hightower, Howard Zinn,
Dr. Paul Lannoyer, Catherine Austin Fitts, Dr. Robert Bowman and the National Green Party.
http://septembereleventh.org/downloads.php


http://www.911Truth.org/

[lovuian]

64. New Yorkers aren't stupid

they know they have been screwed

[Junkdrawer]

67. OMG - That is the most explosive poll result EVER....

Words fail

[MagickMuffin]

68. It Could Happen

Code named Operation Northwoods, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.

The plans were developed as ways to trick the American public and the international community into supporting a war to oust Cuba's then new leader, communist Fidel Castro.

America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation."

The plans had the written approval of all of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and were presented to President Kennedy's defense secretary, Robert McNamara, in March 1962. But they apparently were rejected by the civilian leadership and have gone undisclosed for nearly 40 years

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/Northwoods.html

One interesting side-note to this is the George Walker once owned 7 business interest in Cuba. These included the sugar, rum, and railroad industries. Castro ruined everything...

I found this out reading Kevin Phillips book, American Dynasty Aristocracy, Fortune, and the Politics of Deceit in the House of Bush. Kevin really digs into the Bush history and puts everything into the open. I never really liked Kevin that much (since he is a converative) until I found out how much he disliked the Bush family. This book is a must read if you haven't read it already.

Perhaps that is another reason JFK had to be offed. The Bush Dynasty knows how to settle scores!

[kayell]

86. Anyone who has read about Project Northwoods, and then reads about PNAC

has good reason to be very, very aware of the evil things that people can justify in the name of "patriotism".

[Dancing_Dave]

72. NEW YORKERS WANT CLEAN-UP, NOT COVER-UP

Some links to enlighten you:

http://summeroftruth.org
http://911ea.org
http://www.nyenvirolaw.org/


And from a graduate of the world-famous Bronx Science highschool,
http://911research.wtc7.net

[kayell]

79. Radius, have you read anything about PNAC?

and if so, how do you reconcile your views on the squeaky cleanness of the BFEE with this:

"The strategic “transformation” of the U.S. military into an imperialistic force of global domination would require a huge increase in defense spending to “a minimum level of 3.5 to 3.8 percent of gross domestic product, adding $15 billion to $20 billion to total defense spending annually,” the PNAC plan said.

“The process of transformation,” the plan said, “is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event—like a new Pearl Harbor.”

American Free Press asked Christopher Maletz, assistant director of the PNAC about what was meant by the need for “a new Pearl Harbor.”

“They needed more money to up the defense budget for raises, new arms, and future capabilities,” Maletz said. “Without some disaster or catastrophic event” neither the politicians nor the military would have approved, Maletz said."
http://www.americanfreepress.net/12_24_02/America_Pearl_Harbored/america_pearl_harbored.html

[Radius]

85. Gee

Considering Kerry is supporting growing the military I think that loses steam. I don't see him playing a part in global domination, etc..

An argument can be made we are already an imperialistic force, how much more strength do we need. I mean we already have the capability to do basically what ever we want.

We already have a 20 year jump on everyone else on defense capability.

[thebigidea]

98. "we have the capability to do basically whatever we want"

except maybe rule Iraq.

[Radius]

102. That

is another topic.

My point is someone used the term 4th Reich. Using those methods Iraq is a different war.

Not saying we should, just we can already act as a imperial power. We are not invading Canada, Mexico and Cuba because we can't. Refuting someones claim we need a massive buildup to become dominant. We've been dominant since the coup in Russia failed.

[thebigidea]

110. the delusion that we're omnipotent helped lead to this quagmire

4th Reich 4 2004! 4 More Years!

http://www.terminalproduct.com/pnac.rm

[Eloriel]

122. We don't need to invade Canada

We've signed an amazing agreement with them that puts THEIR military under OUR authority "to protect the Homeland" of course.

You've ignored some of the other questions put to you. Any particular reason for that?

[Radius]

153. Addressed

all the questions I could find. If you have one I will be glad to answer.

Mu point was about the results of this poll. That has morphed into a completely different line of topics.

[Pallas180]

107. "we already have the capability to do basically what ever we want."

I dont mean to hurt your feelings, but please tell us
where you got this idea.

Please tell us what newspapers and tv you listen to.
What sites do you visit?

You just dont seem to have a true picture of what is going on. But you
do seem to have a very propagandized picture.



Obviously we don't have the capability to do whatever we want, without
nuking everybody.

And junior has just found that out.

Because we are not winning a war in Afghanistan or Iraq.

The US is killing people. but not winnng a war.

[Radius]

109. Not my point, side arguement

Someone mentioned PNAC and 4th reich, etc. My point was that we have the capability to do all that wackyness now. Nukes included. My point is just how much bigger do we need to be before this conspiracy kicks in?

[Pallas180]

117. Sweetie, you dont have a point. Just blowing smoke is not

what we do around here.

I can;t follow your switching around, wiggling around."how much bigger do we need to be ........silly.

We dont have capability to fight on one front much less three as
curly, moe, and idiot planned.

give it up kiddo. you dont know what you're talking about...

seems to me you're just trying to repeat some propaganda you heard on
right wing radio or tv.

doesn't play around here without backup of facts - called linking to
substantial report.

you go to some other threads or google FEMA, google Northwoods, google
PNAC, and read.

You dont seem well informed.

[Radius]

147. Rebuttal

Like I said someone links to PNAC 4th reich stuff claiming the plan was to grow the millitary by huge leaps and take over the world. I can link you to the Michigan Millitia's theory on NWO doesn't make it legit or mean it is coming true..

Just saying none of that is happening..

My point was, it is already big, How much more is needed until we start behaving like germany in '39?

Read what I posted, before you condecend.

[kayell]

156. Don't blow PNAC off, go read it at the source

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Spend some time, read in depth. Ask yourself what those nice words really mean. Do some research on the people involved. Further your education.

Added: By the way, unlike the Michigan Militia, PNAC is full of people who are all either in the current Bush* administration, or directly involved with it. Unlike the Michigan Militia, these people have the power to act on their evil fantasies.

[Pallas180]

159. The US is ALREADY "behaving like germany in '39?"

I find it very difficult to follow the "points you say you're trying to make, Radius, cause you keep moving the goal post.

So I don;t know at all what you're trying to say.

But what you "report" is not recognizable as the truth of America today.

[kayell]

155. Do you actually believe that the US version of totalitarianism will

look exactly like any other version of totalitarianism from past history? Do you think that an american dictator would immediately run up lots of flags bearing a swastika? And do you believe that they only way an american crack down would work is if it looked exactly like the nazi or soviet model? With all the power that these people have behind them in marketing, media, advertising and all kinds of other persuasion techniques, do you think they haven't figured out to sell a "kinder, gentler, and more compassionate" dictatorship?

I suppose you won't believe that your freedoms are leaking away unless the government actually sends you a telegram to tell you so.

[Radius]

160. Freedoms

Please tell me what I've lost?
I have nothing to hide so I do not fear the government.

I see plenty of freedom to dissent. f9/11, all types of books and movies critical of the govt. I saw god know how many people march peacefully to oppose the president.

Other than being able to wear boots and a metal belt buckle on a plane, I don't see a loss.

Think of it this way. When Kerry wins, what is going to change? Are we going to leave Iraq or Afganastan, no. The shift in policy will be minimal on the foreign side. Invite europe to join in.

[Minstrel Boy]

162. "I have nothing to hide so I do not fear the government."

Spoken like a Good German.

[Sterling]

166. Yes that was sad.

I think I am starting to feel sorry for radius.

[kayell]

167. I think he's a lost cause. Anyone who uses that line is hopeless.

The problem is that those like him, who are willing to give up a few rights for more security, who think the unPatriot Act is only a problem for "evil-doers" will take a once great country down.

I mourn for our constitution.

[Radius]

169. You didn't answer the question...

What have we lost?
I hear plenty of PNAC conspiracy and civil rights threats.

To date I have yet to see one of my civil rights violated or lost.

Air travel annoyance not included..

[Sterling]

175. Read the Patriot act.

Look up the detention of hundreds of muslims that were not guilty of anything. Look at the hooded prisoners in wire cages in Cuba that have yet to have a trial.

Can't you understand how that is a loss to all of us including the people who gave their lives to preserve our freedoms?

[kayell]

180. My last reply to you radius

You have been given many sources for independent research by a number of people on this thread. Elorial had some excellent suggestions, as have others. Until you have bothered to spend some time reading on your own, I have no more time to spend on you. If you choose to keep your head firmly buried in the sand, so be it. That is your choice. Unfortunately, that attitude is what is taking our country down, but there is little we can do to change your mind other than to suggest you do your own work, just as we have done.

It is time for you to stop listening to Dr. Pangloss and explore the world on your own like Candide.

[Radius]

170. Yah, Yah, Yah

beantworte meine frage, bitte.

[Pallas180]

172. Plays right into the Kissinger types' thinking, doesn't he?

oh protect me, oh protect me.....when it's your own government
trying to scare the crap out of you.

Course some people have so much crappppppp......

[Pallas180]

171. You've lost your privacy. You've lost your rights to take out a library

book without some spook recording in a file with your name on it
" reading Clancy", you've lost your freedom of movement, you've lost your freedom to dissent without having a jacket opened up with your name on it, you've lost your right to be typing this without every type written letter being recorded by a machine, you've lost you rright to private phone conversations....

When and If Kerry wins - there better be a lot of changes, such as
a return to the Constitution of the United States and the burning of
the Patriot Act.

You think inviting Europe in is minimal? This is REpublican extremist
thinking and brainwashing.

Either that, or you're agent Mike.

[Radius]

173. You

think the FBI never touched library records before 9/11?

If you check out a book/paper on how to distrubute organo phosphate pesticides and you live in NYC or Newark you should get attention. Sorry. I believe DOJ has never used this part of the law.

You think the NSA/CIA operate within the realm of that law?

For years Western Union mirriored every telegram transmission to NSA. (bramford). Snooping has been around long before 9/11.

[Sterling]

176. So why change the law?

You also seem to think we have the military power to do whatever we want so it comes as no surprise you are not aware of the limitations on intel gathering on private citizens that were done away with post Bush/9-11.

You are basically saying, "they do it illegally anyway so why not just let them do it legally".

[kayell]

144. Things I ask myself in the night (and maybe you should too)

If we already have the capability to do whatever we want, why did the PNAC members (many of whom are in the * administration) think that we needed a new pearl harbor? What more could we possibly want? What was needed so badly to make such an event desirable? Could it be they weren't interested in defensive capability? Just HOW badly did they want to further their aims? Did they want it as much as the Northwoods planners wanted their goals?

Why was the 9/11 commission hampered so badly in its job by the * administration? Why was so much more money spent on investigating a stained blue dress than on investigating 9/11?

Who was the anthrax mailer, and why do we never hear about this anymore? Are we really safer?

Who outed Valerie Plame?

Where's Osama?

Why is greed good, and why isn't questioning the official story?

Just some things to ponder.

[Old and In the Way]

97. Thanks for posting.

Sadly, the cowards in Congress, who rubber stamp whatever the Trifecta Winner wants, will never really investigate 9/11. {Unless it's a Democratic President having consensual sex.} Why wasn't an Independent Prosecutor in control of the investigation and why did this administration, in power on 9/11, get to pick the commission? Perhaps, if our votes count and we can elect a Democratic Congresss along with Kerry, the real story will come out.

The more the "coincidences" pile up against the Bush family, the louder the Coincidence Theorists seem to complain.

[Junkdrawer]

99. Here's what I'm asking myself...

Does this means the media has reached "Propaganda Overload", that point where the media bias is so obvious that people are filtering the media's messages?

Think of the old Soviet Union - especially, say, East Germany in the final days. NO ONE believed their propaganda anymore, and yet it just ran on with bureaucratic inertia, until their system collapsed under its own weight.

[Junkdrawer]

105. Has any news media responded to this poll?

:shrug:

I just checked Google and got nothing.

[nolabels]

111. The living proof

It's walking around Madison Square Gardens

The criminals always come back to the scene of the crime :grr:

[Dancing_Dave]

131. If they return to the scene of the crime during daylight

Then they'll be intercepted by some New Yorkers carrying on a dawn to dusk vigil at Ground Zero throughout the whole duration of the RNC! http://www.nyenvirolaw.org/nyeljp-news.htm#vigil

You might call this action a "pre-emptive strike" against bogus photo-ops seeking political criminals.

[Cha]

114. Poor Babies! Having their City attacked

because of the incompetance and short sightedness of the emperor and his cronies.

Even if it wasn't LIHOP..And I'm not saying it wasn't..it was still One of the major screwups in American History.

You'll bounce back, New Yorkers..after those fuckers are gone from your City and Kerry/Edwards get enscounced in our White House!

[RainDog]

120. Whatever the truth, what this poll indicates to me

Is that many people, across many categories, but most especially those who are not part of the white male ruling elite, do not think that this current govt is trustworthy...

...and that would include not only the executive branch, although that's surely the focus of much distrust.

However, the lack of trust has been earned in many other ways, as in the Florida voter disenfranchisement, and in the total disregard for people who are not in the wealthiest 1%, in the insistence on pushing a fundie view of the world on the rest of us, in the way in which Bush and his entire administration lied to go into Iraq and put so many children in harm's way.

No doubt, the more you identify with the ruling powers, the more willing you are to believe them, and vice versa.

[Dancing_Dave]

129. Cool Eluard quote!

:yourock:

[milkyway]

125. Thanks 911truth.org and Zogby! We've got to get this into the mainstream

media. I just got home, turned on the smarmy repug 9/11 exploitation festival, logged on to DU, and saw this post.

[leesa]

126. What's to believe about it. It is established fact.

The Fundies know they did it but they don't care...the Rapture, you know.

[stickdog]

132. I often wonder just what it is that makes middle & upper class white males

so politically retarded compared to the rest of the US population.

[daleo]

138. I think they just have a greater investment in the status quo

Financial, emotional, psychological. If you are doing pretty well by the system, you tend to think it must be OK. Otherwise, your own self image is threatened. Plus, if you are on top, any rearrangement of the system is likely to make you worse off, which co-opts you.

[NYC]

134. There were many posters in the Sunday march

re 9/11 and a thorough investigation being needed.

[graphixtech]

137. 911Truth.org's signs were there

911Truth.org developed these signs for the protests:

(as well as the 6'x3' banner in my last post)

It was gratifying and exciting to see the 9/11 issue signs being shown on CSPAN.
;-)

[graphixtech]

145. (media) Action Request and news from 911Visibility.org, 911Truth

Just recieved this . . . Will be sending out letters to media today. Please join us!
___________________________________________________________
Dear 9/11 Truth activists and concerned citizens,
Below is an update from Nicholas Levis of ny911truth.org, on the
ground in New York, where hundreds of 9/11 truth activists have
converged along with half a million others who oppose war and empire.
Also, you should have received a few moments ago the recent Zogby Poll
revealing that half of New Yorkers believe the current administration
let 9/11 happen on purpose (LIHOP). I forgot to include the link to
the full poll report. Here it is:
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=2004083012034...

And please forward the link to as many others as you can, and request
they do the same. It is particularly important to forward it to media
outlets. Here is a link to our MONSTER MEDIA EMAIL LIST, where you can
copy and paste all day. So go to it! We have an incredible window of
opportunity at this time.
http://www.septembereleventh.org/mediaemails.php
Towards Peace and Truth,
Emanuel Sferios
Webmaster, 9/11 Visibility Project
http://www.septembereleventh.org
-----
An Update from Nicholas Levis, on the Ground in NYC:
Dear NY 9/11 Truth & Friends
On the heels of the last 3 amazing days, more big news and events are
coming up. Your presence is requested in force on Wednesday when Sibel
Edmonds speaks at the NOW-NYC "Code Red" Rally - the only womens'
rights demonstration during the RNC - and on Thursday at the Vigil for
Truth at Ground Zero. See below or go to http://www.nownyc.org and
http://summeroftruth.org
But first, a recap:
Friday, Aug. 27 we had a successful launch of the Convergence Space at
the Brecht Forum. Saturday we were present and had speakers at the
Greens Festival and marched a contingent down to the "ring-out" at
Ground Zero, chanting that the government was complicit in 9/11.
Crowds of people on the street literally burst into applause as we
marched by! Yesterday (Sunday) we got more than a thousand signs out
to the protesters and distributed many thousands of flyers, so that
everyone in the rally was aware of 9/11 truth. The signs were visible
on CNN (with comments) and on the front page of Newsday today.
Last night, we announced the amazing Zogby poll results to a large
group of peace and justice and Green leaders during a party at the
Brecht (henceforth to be known as The Historic Pizza). See
911Truth.org today for the lowdown: Half of New York City is going to
be surprised at what the other half has been thinking about Sept.
11th. And the other half - our half - will be surprised that they are,
in fact, the majority! Please check out the poll results and spread
the word by every means you have. Now the next big thing is the visit
to New York by Sibel Edmonds on Wednesday... Let us gather at the
Brecht Forum by 5 PM Wed. and go to the NOW-NYC Code Red rally with
the largest possible contingent. Thursday we will hold the Vigil for
Truth at Ground Zero for the first time on a weekday starting at 1PM.
See you Wednesday and Thursday, and hold your head high. Talk to your
neighbors, they are ready to hear the truth about Sept. 11.
Nicholas

[TNOE]

154. Kicking for the visiting Freepers today

:kick:

[kayell]

157. And another bump for freeper education

[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

179. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[emad]

181. US was told of Thatcher coup plot: Sunday Times 29 Aug:

see:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=789714&mesg_id=789819

[Sterling]

182. Good point

It's not like our power elite don't deal in death as a matter of practice.