Explosions and gunfire in Russian school

[Guaranteed]

Breaking on CNN

It's been going on for 10-20 minutes, now, at least.

[Wonk]

1. Live on CNN at the moment

My gut feeling is that this won't end well for the kids and other hostages :(

[allemand]

2. The longer that damned shooting goes on the worse it will be

[Pachamama]

4. The kids....

I feel sick....there is massive gun fire and explosions....this can't be good....

Those poor kids....the kids....:cry:

[Guaranteed]

3. Get those fucking special forces in there NOW nt

[Guy_Montag]

6. Remember the opera house fiasco.

120 killed.

[Rhiannon12866]

20. Yes, I certainly do. This made no sense, either!

I am frightened for the children, as I was for those in Columbine. What a horrible way for them to start their school year, which is always so full of hope.:-(

[LibLabUK]

34. Hmm...

The statistic for the armed rescue of hostages is roughly a 10% fatality rate.

120 people out of ~700 is almost twice that... but the majority of the deaths were cause by lack of prompt medical treatment, unconscious hostages aspirated vomit and choked to death because they weren't placed in the recovery position.

[Guy_Montag]

5. A group of hostages have just escaped...

just reported on BBC Radio 5.

On edit: soldiers seen carrying bloody children away from the perimeter.

Live reports - with explosions & gunfire in the background.

[Dookus]

7. this is awful to watch...

so much gunfire and so many explosions. It's just heartbreaking.

[LondonAmerican]

49. It is a good thing

to get rid of nazis.

[Guaranteed]

8. HOLY SHIT

They're taking gunfire LIVE, on camera...SCARY SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dookus]

9. oh god...

this is awful.

There are now helicopters on scene. It's gonna be a massacre.

[lapfog_1]

10. If I were them, I would be wearing some body armor

What's up with that?

People being carried out with bullet wounds... lots of small
arms fire. Not too far away.

[Voice_of_Europe]

45. That's REAL

That's some war reporting.
They don't only show you nice tanks and airplanes but people dying.

If all media was like this people would have different thoughts about war and weapons.

[Aidoneus]

11. chaos..

more aggressive positions were taken on the outside. As another round of people were being sent, the place was for some reason fired on from the outside. Those inside fired back and were fired on. People from inside took this opportunity to leave, but they're being hit as shots are coming from inside and out (impossible to say which is hitting them, if not both). ATTACK HELICOPTERS are hovering over the building and its being stormed. What the fuck?!

[Vladimir]

13. Putin is a one trick pony Aidoneus

he has no response but force to a situation like this.

[LibLabUK]

37. What other response could there have been?

The hostage-takers weren't allowing medicine, food or water to be shipped in to the hostages... much longer and people would have started dying from basic dehydration and sickness.

There is a lot of things wrong with the way Putin does business, but implementing force in the rescue of hostages is not one of them.

[Vladimir]

38. One has to wonder

water is the only thing there that would be absolutely urgent within two days, and I doubt the school gym of all places didn't have any. Given yesterday's false reports about hostages being shot and the playing down of the number of hostages involved, I am loathe to believe the official story for the moment.

It will be very interesting to see how this pans out, especially with the casualties. If it turns out well for the kids (and I certainly hope it does), it will be more through luck than judgement on Putin's part IMO.

[LibLabUK]

40. Hmm..

"water is the only thing there that would be absolutely urgent within two days"

I'd say water and medicine. There was also some very young kids in there (thankfully they released the infants) who probably wouldn't do too well missing food for even a couple of days.


In the end with hostage situations, there may come a point where negotiations break down and force must be used.

It would be nice to think we could magically go in and extract all the hostages safely... but it's not possible.

"If it turns out well for the kids (and I certainly hope it does), it will be more through luck than judgement on Putin's part IMO."

Ofcourse, we probably won't know what advice he's been getting and what his options were, but then I wouldn't expect to know that if the situation happened here.

It's worth noting that the Spetznaz and the FSB's tactical troops are the equal of any western HRT (SAS, Delta, ASAS, FBI-HRT, GSG9.. etc), so it will be down to training and skill as much as luck.

[Vladimir]

41. I know they have good troops

but my suspicion is that Putin went in with force because he had to be seen as in control of the situation. He has had 4 attacks in the last week, major attacks, and it makes him look foolish and incompetent. The more he sits around doing nothing, the more foolish he look. I could of course be wrong, we know very little about the situation, but I love to have an opinion regardless... :)

PS I agree of course that force is often necessary in these situations.

[LibLabUK]

42. Oh, no..

don't get me wrong, I know that there's a huge political element to this.

Putin's got a pretty tough job as far as I can tell. At the last elections wasn't he pretty well challenged by the Nationalists?

Do the Communists still have standing in Russia too?

[Vladimir]

43. No, the nationalists are his guys

the only real opposition in Russia are the Communists and Yabloko (the liberals). The Communists have good grass-roots organisation and standing, Yabloko I don't know much about. Nigh on everyone else, nationalists, religious parties and the like are either directly or indirectly supportive of Putin. Many political parties contesting elections are created in the Kremlin specifically to split the vote - some don't even exist as parties beyond the ballot paper.

[LibLabUK]

47. Ahh..

I see.

Thanks for the info, I'm going to have to do some reading on this it sounds pretty interesting (unless ofcourse you actually have to live there, in which case it's probably quite unpleasant).

[LondonAmerican]

57. Make sure you read up

on the US' and UK's interest in supporting the Chechen fascists to get control of oil.

[Vladimir]

58. Source please n/t

[LondonAmerican]

51. This is excellent!

The Chechen fascists are learning that they will have a heavy price to pay -- just like at the theatre they terrorised a year and a half ago. Hopefully the Russians will summarily execute any of those nazis that they find on the site.

I AM VERY HAPPY to see the Russians fighting back against these nazi agents of NATO/US interests.

[Aidoneus]

52. weren't you the one praising Stalin's genocide a week or three back?

[LondonAmerican]

61. You are putting words in my mouth

I said that Stalin knew how to deal with Chechen nazis; in fact, Stalin knew how to deal with nazis in general pretty well -- maybe that is why we allied with the Russians and not the Chechens in WWII.

I think you had most of your posts in that thread pulled for abuse, actually.

Is there something wrong with fighting nazis, especially nazis who are killing children?

[Vladimir]

64. And of course when it comes to the Chechens

its once a Nazi, always a Nazi - right?

[Aidoneus]

69. And they never actually backed the Nazis

In fact, the Chechen nation had a higher level--proportionately, that is--of decorated fighters in the army that brought the Nazi regime to its knees than any other ethnic group in the USSR. The heroes returned home to find their world erased, and themselves shot, burned, or crammed into late trains bound for the lower Siberian steppe.

[LondonAmerican]

74. That is bullsh*t

they were heavily recruited by the Waffen SS and they fought for Islam against 'godless communism.' And you know that but you choose to repeat lies.

[Violet_Crumble]

81. No, it wasn't...

I'm going to make a very polite suggestion here. In order to discuss the Soviet Union during WWII and before merrily flinging around labels like Nazi and Fascist, it does help a little bit if you actually know a bit about the topic yr discussing. Hot air and bluster doesn't really cut it :)

Violet...

[HuckleB]

82. Nope.

There is very little evidence that a very few Chechens may have collaborated with the invaders. Meanwhile, tens of thousands of Chechens fought against the Nazis tooth and nail in the Soviet army.

That hardly justifies a mass deportation in which one-third of the population died.

What the Chechens actually fought, in terms of Soviet rule, was constant racism, as bad and worse than that known in the US.

Please don't push Soviet and Russian propaganda without putting it into context. That doesn't help anything.

[Aidoneus]

93. There is a subtle nuance to be considered with that

This man tries to tell me what I know, how nice of him.. :eyes:

In the time of WWII, there were events of Russ-N.Cauc. fighting in the foothills. There was never a period where there wasn't. One particular event was a battle that took place between highlanders and a paratrooper unit that got lost and had to bail. The highlanders thought they were under attack--as they constantly were in the years that came before--and beat them to the punch. This is just one example often held up as "proof" of the universal Chechen love and worship of Hitler (gag). That it all directly links back to periods before the German Reich itself is not irrelevant. I know nothing of the Waffen SS doing anything in the area except them shooting people, just like the Soviet secret police routinely did.

I know of the Mountain Republic formed just after the Revolution; I know of the Naqshbandiyyan Sufi Emirate of Uzun Hajji in 1919; the jihad declared the next year against the Reds & Whites and the impossible odds of the uprising that followed; the resistance that followed the collapse of that a year later. The struggles then of Sa`id Shamil and Sultan Murad. Chechens & Daghestanis revolted again in 1927 responding to religious suppression, then by '29-'30 the whole length of the N.Caucasus rose against land seizures by Russist colonists (mistakenly calling themselves 'communists' and thinking that the same old imperialist bullshit was the "road to socialism"). Much of the same continued up until the summer of 1937, which saw 14,000 Chechen-Ingush people seized by the state--most of that figure in a single night. A series of small deportations off to prison camps followed, just like in the Tsars' time. Every year up until the moment of deportation saw the overlapping of either the remnants of a past struggle or the spark of a new one. The Sufi resistance orders had always had the minds of the people, who would never submit to anyone. The women formed their own units to fight when the males in their family were killed (a tradition maintained to this day). Songs in Stalin's favour were sung in schools, with the zikr done at home.

...They also sent thousands of conscripts and volunteers into the army they despised to fight the Nazi enemy. The Nazis wanted Baku's oil, but became bogged down before even reaching the foothills.

That the Moscow governments--then under a so-called "Communist" system that was acting just like the "Tsarist" (and both rather resembling the "Democratic" facade that now exists)--fucking despised the highlanders and wanted them permanently eliminated is obviously not any hidden fact. Indeed, THAT was the real reason for the genocidal deportations of the majority of the North Caucasus nations (minus the Ossets, who were always willing agents).

That a whole series of propagandistic explanations were invented to put a pretty face to genocide is not any surprise. Even the Nazis came up with some really damning claims against the Jews and Communists as they were crammed into cattle cars. Of course they were all bullshit in both cases and not something to take seriously. That they are taken seriously is only a slight surprise to me.

Had the Nazis crossed the Terek, they'd have received the same treatment that the Russians, Turks, Mongols, Persians, Romans, and Greeks received before them:--an almost suicidal resistance, and a failed occupation and eventual retreat.

[Zhade]

147. Thank you for this in-depth post!

I learned more in five minutes than I thought possible.

And, having read your posts for a long time now, I can say your credibility is very high, and you are very well-informed.

Thanks for sharing this.

[Swamp Rat]

92. Drinking Kool-Aid?

Your posts are about as accurate as the drivel I hear from Limpballs and Heil Hannity. Would you like to prove your assertions?

[Vladimir]

79. Can you recommend a good book on the subject?

I have read extensively about Stalin, but mostly up until the end of WW2, and there wasn't all that much mention of the Chechen situation one way or another. Ulam's biography, and some of Deucher's, and Kruschev's memoirs plus a few theses on the topic from the 70s were my main sources so far...

[LondonAmerican]

73. Afraid so

especially when they are looking to establish an islamofascist state.

[Vladimir]

76. Glad we got that clear n/t

[Swamp Rat]

95. What kind of fascist state would you prefer?

A christofascist one? Does this pic make you feel warm fuzzies?

[Zhade]

148. "islamofascist" - isn't that a phrase neocons use?

Hmmmm?

Very interesting.

[JohnLocke]

197. No (nt).

[Zhade]

222. Really? You must not be acquainted with Google, then.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=islamofascist&btnG=Google+Search

lgf: Hip-Hop, Islamofascist Style
... previous entry: The Road Map for A Sovereign Iraq, current weblog, next entry:
50 Dead in Nigeria. 6/9/2004: Hip-Hop, Islamofascist Style. ...
www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/ ?entry=11330_Hip-Hop_Islamofascist_Style - 101k - Cached - Similar pages

Deroy Murdock on Islamofascism on National Review Online
December 3, 2002 2:35 pm The Islamofascist Agenda “The Americans love
Pepsi-cola, we love death.”. hat would Jesus drive?" A ...
www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock120302.asp - 33k - Cached - Similar pages

Down with Beauty? Only when it's ugly (Islamofascist Apologist ...
Skip to comments. Down with Beauty? Only when it's ugly (Islamofascist Apologist
Alert!) The Globe and Mail ^ | November 27, 2002 | Russell Smith. ...
www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/796997/posts - 21k - Cached - Similar pages

nepotism + tokenism = a nancy pelosi (or a hillary clinton)
... johnkerryisdangerousforamerica.blogspot.com. pro-islamofascist-terrorist radical
chic WHY JOHN KERRY IS DANGEROUS FOR AMERICA by Mia T, 5.15.04 As long ...
www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1141390/posts - 80k - Cached - Similar pages
< More results from www.freerepublic.com >

That's very much a neocon/fascist term. How nice that you use it.

(Of course, I still have the thread saved where you advocated collective punishment of Saudi citizens, so it's not surprising you'd use a fascist term.)

[Swamp Rat]

108. No, it's a good thing to fight Nazis. That's what we do here at DU.

Now why are you here disrupting this thread? Are you a Nazi infiltrator? Just wondering...

[TO Kid]

163. Stalin knew how to deal alright

Nazis gave him half of Poland just to do nothing. Nazis and communists are just two sides of the same misanthropic, homicidal coin.

[LanternWaste]

221. Hmmm...

Stalin didn't know how to deal with nationalists, he merely percieved them as a treasonous force and had as many as possible executed or sent to the gulag setting the stage for the slow, decades-lng simmer of hatred born of oppresion. We're seeing one of the results of that today.

I think we alllied with the Soviets because they posessed a legitimate national government legally recognized by the U.S., Chechnya did not. We allied ourselves with him because we shared a common enemy, not becuase "he knew how to deal with Chechens"

I guess you think that Gen. Vlasov was a nazi too and the Soviet government was correct in executing him him and sending the Vlasovites to the gulag...

[jayfish]

65. Ya He/She Loves That Mis-understood Ol' Joey Stalin.

Also like to use reactionary talking points like "islamofascists".

Jay

[LondonAmerican]

77. Yes indeed

I must be one of those _rightwing communists_. We're everywhere!

Your naivite makes me laugh.

[jayfish]

88. Right-Wing Commies?

Your ignorance makes me laugh.

Jay

[Swamp Rat]

100. You said it. Thanks for being honest.

By the way, it's spelled "naivete." Before you insult people here, you could at least try to spell or use the spell checker!

[Pachamama]

171. I dunno....you seem like a right-wing commie to me....

You obviously were one of those "children left behind" who didn't get a proper history education and who likes to throw around terms that are inaccurate and just, well plain dumb...

Right wing Commie ....sorry, but folks on the DU are educated enough to never use that term....Only a Free Republic "MORAN" would put that kind of term together....

No, we just think you all are extremist christianfascists.....In my opinion, no different than the Nazi party of the 3rd reich and hard to distinguish from the islamic extremism that your so busy trying to fight....The lines are blurred...can't tell much of a difference in the rhetoric anymore....

[Swamp Rat]

192. Ha ha!

Those were dead giveaways, huh?

Namaste

[Sideways]

196. Naivite? Trying to be clever but missed the mark?

Typical Re puke nonsense. Were you born an asshole or did you have to work at it?

[Swamp Rat]

91. What the Hell are you talking about???

Chechen fascists?

You should be more worried about American fascists.

Good luck!

[Aidoneus]

12. hiccup

[allemand]

14. BBC World: School roof collapsed

[Aidoneus]

15. did it say how?!

[Dookus]

16. I presume

it's the grenades.

[Vladimir]

17. Video feed

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

looks like loks of kids have left... by what means seems unclear...

[Rhiannon12866]

18. I'm tuned in, thanks, how horrible! Why?!

This is totally insane. I guess that the Russians are the next victims of terrorism.:-(

[Pachamama]

19. Oh no - I just saw a bloodied child being carried...this is so awful....

I just can't stand this....I keep meditating and putting yellow circles of light around the children trying to protect them....so many dieing....its awful...I feel it...I can't stand this...

[Wonk]

21. *hug*

:hug:

There is nothing you nor I can do about this particular incident at the moment, other than try and learn from it.

:hug:

[Pachamama]

24. I know...but it doesn't mean I can't try....

I just had an awful flash that *this* is a preview of what is coming our way....

[Rhiannon12866]

22. I agree and know that this is really bad

Your words choke me up, as I am watching. I have visited Russia during the start of a new school year, as part of a peace delegation. They were so hopeful. This breaks my heart.;(

[AnnitaR]

23. How horrible!

Bless those children and keep them safe.

Oh and how long do you think it will take Chimpy to strut and make some statement about "see this is why I fighting the valiant fight on terrorism, like my fellow Comrade Putin we know this is the kind of people we must destroy in this war on terrorism". Guarantee you he will use this to his advantage. They always do.

[dbt]

25. BBC World seems to confirm roof collapse

"Several explosions," according to on-scene reporter. "More gunfire" at 5:06 CDT.

"Reports that special forces are inside the school." Parents and bystanders reportedly ready to rush the school.

[dbt]

26. BBC: Tass reports Russians "nearly in full control" of school.

Burst of gunfire at moment of report, calmed, then a couple more shots. Sirens going by.

[LondonAmerican]

55. Superb!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

165. Your glee is offensive. (nt)

[allemand]

27. TASS: Russian forces nearly in full control of school

But until now I saw only about 100 hostages leaving (of 350, of 1500 maybe?).

[allemand]

28. CNN: "Most children survived"

according to Interior Ministry of Northern Ossetia.

Thank God if that is correct.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

111. Aw, now you're going to make LondonAmerican sad. (nt)

[ze_dscherman]

29. Reuters link

http://news.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6144763

[Wonk]

30. Most of the children are ok - unconfirmed - CNN nt

[Wonk]

31. There's still small arms fire in the distance, (CNN audio) though, too. nt

[allemand]

32. BBC World: 158 children hospitalized n/t

[ze_dscherman]

33. BBC article link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3624024.stm

[allemand]

35. Smoke rising from the school, gunfire.

This is still going on.

[Aidoneus]

36. some more bits & pieces in general

A series of facts that don't really fit into a thread of their own, so I'll put summaries of them here as I read through these.

one of the female human-bombers from the airplanes earlier in the week has been ID'd as Roza Nagayeva; when Roza, who is still among the Quite Alive, was informed of this, she was baffled.

It is most unfortunate that this ended like this:--Chechen President and resistance leader Aslan Maskhadov was recently approached about and accepted the task of mediating an end to this.

The press is lying about the fighters behind this. Information from better placed sources suggest rather that the unit is composed of Ingush & Ossetians, rather than Chechens as falsely claimed. Since a basic level of decency in the media is too tall of an order, that correction should be made.

Reportedly, two of the most important journalists on the subject have been seriously hassled. Andrey Babitsky was arrested while trying to make it to the front to do his job (which he does well), while Anna Politkovskaya was reportedly poisoned(?!) en route to Rostov in the same plane as the famous doctor that acted as a mediator there.

As for what Chechen fighters actually are doing, two military convoys in the western outskirts of occupied-Grozny were hit by resistance bombs, with 9 Russian military forces killed.

perhaps more later.

[Swamp Rat]

39. Here's the link you gave me in GD

Here's the English link
http://www.gazeta.ru/english/

BBC: Fighting intensifying... bombs going off ever few seconds. 200 wounded, (150+ are children), 10 dead; many more casualties expected. BBC saying they are connected to Chechen movement overall. They are also saying that a hostage breakout may have triggered the fighting.

By the minute reporting:
http://www.gazeta.ru/intnews.shtml?346298#346298

[Aidoneus]

44. I have a lot of others..

here are a few that source what I referred to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chechnya-sl/message/39855
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chechnya-sl/message/39854
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chechnya-sl/message/39851
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chechnya-sl/message/39841
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chechnya-sl/message/39821

mariuslab does an excellent job at translating, and often does this under more "normal" times as well. The group is very useful.

I just found this one at ATO, which thankfully actually covers some of the background-sort of things that I have referred to in a series of longer posts in these threads:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/FI03Ag01.html

dozens of others that I skim over and unfortunately don't save..

Many reports are unfortunately passing on many lies that readers should be wary of, but unfortunately my voice where I say this is a little quiet by comparison..

[LondonAmerican]

54. Yes, yahoo chat boards

now they're reliable sources. Screw the BBC, screw the Guardian, just give us some Chechen nazis spewing propaganda on yahoo any time, eh?

[Aidoneus]

62. Going off half-cocked..

on something you have obviously no knowledge of: not something I'd personally recommend. It just makes you look foolish.

You don't even deserve a response with this sort of bullshit, but I'll make one anyway because ... well, sometimes I just like to hear myself talk (or the equivalent of what this is).

This is actually a discussion group, the posts are almost entirely news articles offered up & copied from an extensive variety of sources. Those I referred to in particular were translated from Russian-language papers, with one Polish. Another was AP, and another from the Kremlin news wire RIAN, in English. You'd have known that if you took 10 seconds to check it out before going off blind with this racist bullshit. Yee-haw.

[LondonAmerican]

63. You are the one going off half-cocked my dear

[Aidoneus]

66. Yet you're the one with the empty one-liner in response

...just as I am now, to be sure, but you gave me nothing to work with.

[LondonAmerican]

72. Sad isn't it

[Aidoneus]

75. Now you're not even making sense..

if you can't refute my points, don't bother trying.

Do forgive me if I lose interest in this from here on.

[Swamp Rat]

98. Like the hate you are peddling here?

[LondonAmerican]

53. Yes it's all a conspiracy against the noble Chechen fascists

and of course they had NOTHING whatsoever to do with the plane downings, the subway bombing or the bus bombing either. Poor, maligned, innocent Chechens. Everyone knows that Chechen nazis and fascists only want peace?

All that talk about destroying 'heretic Russia' -- well that was just a big Chechen JOKE, wasn't it?

[bemildred]

96. I did have the impression these were Ingush.

From the early reports. But the "Chechen" meme
seems firmly fixed now, I doubt it will be corrected.

This suggests that the conflict continues to spread to the
West. When the dust settles Pooty-Poot is going to have to
explain what progress is being made.

Haven't seen anything from Dagestan lately, but not really
paying attention to the Caucasus. The business in Georgia
with S. Ossetia and Adzharskaya and the threats of war with
Russia don't suggest things are going well. And I suppose the
traffic in weapons and drugs from Afghanistan and so on is
booming.

[allemand]

46. AP: 250 wounded, 180 children

Parents still waiting in front of school for their children to be brought out.

Heartbreaking.

[LondonAmerican]

48. Excellent news

Putin is no idiot.

BBC is reporting that the Russians have taken control of the school. Now they just need to execute each and every one of those fascist terrorists still left standing at the school to complete the job.

[jayfish]

56. Who Sounds Like A Fascist?

Summary executions? Actually you sound a bit more like your idol Joey Stalin.

Jay

[LondonAmerican]

59. Actually I do think that Stalin was right to fight nazis, don't you?

and when nazis are killing children then nazis need to be eliminated like the vermin that they are.

[jayfish]

60. Um... Ya Since They Invaded His Country... But Nice Try Stalinist.

Too bad about that messy little detail of him killing millions of his own after the war ended... including much of the army that kicked the Nazi's asses. Make sure you read up on that one.

Jay

[LondonAmerican]

70. Nice try but

I am not a stalinist. I used to be a trot in my youth but am basically a libertarian and have been so for years. That said, I do think that terrorist nazis need to to fought resolutely and that they cannot be accomodated.

My father spent WWII in a nazi camp. My mother lived under the Japanese occupation in Tianjing. I have no sympathy for nazis and fascists. And unlike you, I believe that when they start killing they need to be taken seriously and fought by any means necessary.

If you think that makes me a stalinist then I can only laugh at your naivite.

[jayfish]

80. Well, "By Any Means Necessary" huh? Sounds Good.

Why don't we collect them all up and gass'em. No, no... that would be too expensive. Lets just launch an compliment of ICBMs at all of the Islamofascist strongholds. That outta kill all of them Nazi cockroaches huh? Whos next after that? I can't wait to get the kill'en on.

Jay

[Swamp Rat]

103. So LondonAmerican, who you gonna vote for? Bush?

Why are you in London? I mean, how did you get past security?

[brokensymmetry]

71. Reports show that the terrorists fired at fleeing children.

This sounds like something the Nazis would do. Withholding water for days smacks of Auschwitz.

I'm sorry, but there is no reason for such behavior. People who do it have, in my opinion, gone beyond some critical limit. They have renounced their membership in the family of man, and have become insane monsters.

[jayfish]

83. I Understand That This Is An Emotional Tragedy But, Advocating Summary...

executions is just a bit over the top isn't it. How does that help the situation?

Jay

[brokensymmetry]

89. Advocating summary execution?

I'm sorry, but I don't see how you interpreted my comments in that way.

I stated that I had read that the terrorists had fired at fleeing children. I find that deplorable; I'm confident you do also.

I also stated that those who would do that are insane monsters. I did not suggest that others should become insane monsters also.

I hope this clarifies my position.

[jayfish]

97. Not You.

The top post of this branch calls for summary executions (see" Excellent News"). Sorry for the confusion.

Jay

[Radius]

118. I am

This was a military operation carried out by non uniformed combatants. They are accorded no quarter by the convention and are subject to summary execution by law.

The Russians can and extract intelligence and then cuff them to a chain link fence and shoot them in the back of the head with a tokarov pistol. That is how Russian carries out its executions.

They are below contempt. Their policy of using their wives has opened them up to combatant status and that will get ugly. Any restraint Russia was using will now be lifted.

Any person supporting this attack is a combatant and should be treated as such.

These men will be dead shortly, I suspect their wives will be shot as well. Kill the black widow before it can bite.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,1296488,00.html

[Zhade]

153. God, you're the new MuddleoftheRoad...

Your bloodlust seems to know no bounds.

Tell me, do you salivate over the thought of "killing the black widow" yourself?

First you show up as an apologist for U.S. war crimes in Najaf, and 400 bewildering non-progressive posts later, you clamor for collective punishment - "Any person supporting this attack is a combatant and should be treated as such".

I mean, sure, one of the hostage-takers' daughters might unwittingly support her daddy without really knowing what's going on, but hey, she's a supporter and thus a combatant and should be shot on sight, right?

Sickening. Just as sickening as b*sh-supporters endorsing the illegal war in Iraq.

But then, you support the war too, don't you?

[Radius]

157. Nope I don't

I'm speculating on a russian response. The Iraq war and Chechen war are unrelated. Bush has no bearing in this discussion. Nice ad hominem though.

As a rule the chechens have used females whose husbands were killed fighting in russia as suicide bombers. That is a tactic, killing those people is a counter tactic. They opened that door.

This is a russian matter, but by attacking school children the chechens have crystalized russian society to back increasingly harsh tactics.

Do you care at all about the victims? Should the attackers actions go unpunished?

The russians have been doing things this way for a long time, they will not stop now.

War crimes..No indictments against anyone in Najaf..
Don't view the world through your American lens.

[Swamp Rat]

190. Nail meet head

I think you're right Zhade.

[Radius]

199. Nice

of you to answer the question with a logical response.

Yeah bush was responsible and halliburton..I've got no problem with realistic arguements against those two, none at all.

But they are irrelevant here. There is no us politics involved in this event. Only us looking in at a human disaster.

My opinion is simple, anyone sick enough to kill kids should get no quarter. Russia has plenty of other things to attack, a school is just sick. I have no sympathy for the poeple who did it, their actions does not make want to learn more about their cause.

shortly, fuck em, the only place someone who would put an ak round in a kid belongs is underground.

watching video on msnbc of mangled kids makes me want to fucking puke.

[Swamp Rat]

203. I wasn't talking to you

So you want to continue? What's the purpose? We are both upset about Russian children being murdered, but we disagree about the solution.

You approve of killing humans under certain circumstances and I do not under any circumstances. It is also apparent that you and I learned different world histories and operate in different paradigms. We have no common ground here.

Are you going to vote for Kerry? If so, we may agree on something. That would be a good place to start... in another thread.

[Radius]

210. We agree on that.

I respect your beliefs and am sick of seeing the carnage involved. Turned off the tv.
I'm sure we agree on enviro and social issues abound as well..

[Swamp Rat]

214. Peace

No more TV for me either.

[HuckleB]

84. If true, you're right.

Alas, we cannot believe anything the Russians tell us. They're history of giving baloney news on items like this is far too vast.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

152. It's nice to see today's news made at least SOMEONE happy.

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[allemand]

50. TASS: At least 310 wounded in attack n/t

[ze_dscherman]

67. Guardian reports at least seven children dead n/t

n/t

[Briar]

68. Few children under ten seem to have escaped

according to BBC correspondents and commentators. They'd have been too weakened by fear, thirst and hunger (the kids coming out had received neither food nor water since the seige began, according to reports)to get themselves out when the terrorists detonated their mines.

[IwoVet1945]

78. This old Marine

wishes he could picked up a weapon and helped these Russian fellows out. Damn those chechin terrorists! Taking little children as hostages. Why?

[bpilgrim]

87. good question

that is to pc to ask anymore apparently.

welcome to DU :toast:



i suspect they are using the same rational we used for hiroshima and nagasaki or that putin used in the theater... maybe they thought it would by them more time and attention :shrug:

shock-n-awe



peace

[IwoVet1945]

90. My response to your question....

....may not be liked here, but here it goes. In my eyes I saw many young Americans and Japanese die and as bad as the fighting was on Iwo, the fighting on Okinawa was much worse. Saw many, many civilians die on Okinawa at their own hands or by the hands of their fellow countrymen. We could tell that the fighting was getting much worse and much more despirite. I can't imagine what the fighting would have been like on the Japanese mainland. So, in short, yes I think dropping the bombs saved lives. Sorry if you don't agree. Did not mean to get off the subject (moderators).

ps. vote Kerry!

[ze_dscherman]

101. So, Nagasaki was also necessary after Hiroshima?

Even if I would agree with your rationale, Nagasaki would make no sense at all.

[IwoVet1945]

106. Probably not nessesary.

But we will never know. Too many had already died and everyone just wanted it to end.

[Radius]

158. The Japanese

Did not surrender after hiroshima, hence nagasaki. BTW we killed 90K people a day in tokyo firebombing. With out the bomb its total killed would have been superceded by conventional tactics in 3 days.

[JohnLocke]

198. The Japanese wouldn't surrender.

[bpilgrim]

172. imagine

if we had accepted their 1 condition for surrender earlier... IWO and/or Okinawa wouldn't have cost so dearly.




DEATH OF ERNIE PYLE, American war correspondent, took place while he was observing the fighting on Ie Shima. Above he is pictured talking to a Marine infantryman on Okinawa a few hours after its invasion. After the close of the Ryukyus campaign Brig. Gen. Edwin R. Randle, assistant commander of the 77th Division, unveiled a monument (below) over Pyle's grave.

source...
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/okinawa/chapter7.htm

:hi:

peace

[Radius]

183. Different War

We weren't accepting anything other than the emperor not be hung as a war criminal.

They started it, we finished it.

[Rhiannon12866]

224. Yes, I welcome you to DU, as well, IwoVet1945!

We are honored to have you among us, even if it is in the midst of this horrific tragedy!;(

[allemand]

85. BBC: 100 dead bodies inside school

What a sad day this is.

[Briar]

86. 100 dead in the gynasium

according to unconfirmed reports on the BBC now.

[Matilda]

94. We are hearing the same here - around 100 dead, from ABC Australia

Pictures on Lateline of children in their underwear being evacuated
from the school, dehydrated and some with head wounds covered with
bandages.

It's hard to say at this point whether the rescue operation was
bungled, but it's looking that way, although in fairness it was
a very difficult situation, and looking at the state of the kids
coming out of the school, they couldn't have been left there much
longer.

It seems that the hostage-takers are possibly hiding out in local
houses, and the Russian troops are searching for them now.

[Briar]

102. Perhaps not bungled

the BBC's correspondents are leaning towards the theory (based on what they and other eye witnesses saw) that the security forces were taken by surprise when some of the hostages attempted a break out, the terrorists fired on them, and then exploded some of their mines. Their reaction was, apparently, extremely quick and may have saved some lives.

I think it's likely the terrorists never intended to let most of the hostages go. They had taken no care of the children, not allowing them food or water nor allowing them to visit the bathrooms (according again to what is being said on the spot and reported on the BBC).

[Junkdrawer]

105. Posted in wrong spot...

sorry.

[Matilda]

113. But should they have been taken by surprise?

Hostage-taking is becoming such a regular event now, shouldn't they
have been trained to deal with every possible result of such a
situation?

I know it's easy for us to sit here and think we have the answers,
but I can't agree with Putin's "no talk" attitude, nor with his
"no deals with hostage-takers" stand. I understand where he's
coming from - if you do deals with hostage-takers, that will
encourage more, but it leaves him with two options, I think - he's
either got to kill every last Chechen, or start talking with a
genuine view to a peaceful solution. Children are the only
innocents, and the most vulnerable, and if this is going to start
happening, he must change the way he's handling things.

He's been refusing even to allow open discussion in Russia, saying
that the situations under control, it's being handled, it's all
okay. Well now everyone knows it's not under control, and it's
time to level with people, and start listening to advice from
people who might have a different point of view.

[LisaL]

220. I heard that it all started

because Russians went in to retrieve dead bodies as was agreed by terrorists. Then something was blown up either on purpose by the terrorists or by accident. Some of the roof cave in, and that is why Russian troops stormed the building.

[HuckleB]

99. The perils of being an independent-minded Russian journalist.

Freedom of speech is the history?

http://www.chechentimes.org/en/comments/?id=21077

"...
Having found out about the hostage taking crisis in Beslan, Politkovskaya and Babitsky decided to go to North Ossetia to see everything with their own eyes. To all appearance, the plan of Russia’s secret services for further development of the situation does not presuppose presence of independent sources of information. As a result – a special sniff-dog in a Moscow airport “reacted” to an explosive substance when Andrei Babitsky was examined. Of course, he had no dynamite on him. this way or another, “an investigation” took some time and the plane bound for the North Caucasus took off. To suppress his desire to take the next plane, a fight was “organized” for Babitsky – two young men “suddenly” attacked the journalist provoking a fight. Police was unusually quick to interfere and Babitsky was suggested a medical examination although the journalists said he was fine. Now all the participants of the incident will face a semi-Basman trial which is going to consider the case of hooliganism. But the major goal is achieved – Babitsky failed to go to the North Caucasus.

As for Anna Politkovskaya – the situation is more difficult. No fight was organized for her. She was not allowed to a special flight with doctor Roshal heading to Beslan to conduct negotiations with the hostage takers. Also she was not barred from taking another civil flight. However, a pilot who recognized the journalist and helped her to take the flight to Rostov-on-Don. Having reached Rostov Politkovskaya could not continue her trip. She was taken to an UCI in a grave condition. Unconscious, with signs of a severe poisoning (remember Yuri Schekochikhin!), recently she has been moved to Moscow. Doctors say her condition is grave but stable.

..."

[Briar]

104. Channel 4 news has just sent out this

"It is still unclear how it was triggered but it seems that a number of children tried to escape at around 10am British time, around the same time as the hostage takers had called for a vehicle to come and take away a number of dead bodies. The hostage takers started shooting at the children as they ran out of the building and followed them ouside still firing.

"Russian forces outside returned fire and the whole situation erupted. It also appears the terrorists detonated the explosives that brought the school roof crashing down. Scores of children - many of them half-naked - ran to freedom amid ferocious gunfire and explosions that went on for over an hour."

[Junkdrawer]

107. Who thinks it VERY likely that Putin ordered the raid...

to end the embarrassment? And since a raid would lead to children's deaths, I would also expect a "we had to go in because" excuse.

My guess is that he did, but that we'll never know for sure.

[rastignac5]

112. The only one you can blame these children's deaths on are the terrorists

[Junkdrawer]

116. No, badly handled "hostage negotiations" are often blamed on authorities..

or, at least, that's how it used to be. I guess now macho shoot-em-ups are universally applauded.

My bad.

[Radius]

170. Depends

on what was going on in the building. I'm sure the russians ran fiber optic cameras in.

If the chechens and arabs began shooting children, the police would be forced to storm the building.

Not everyone wants to negociate, sometimes they want to die and take as many people as possible with them.

[Briar]

109. A local hospital doctor

has said that many of the children brought in have bullet wounds to the head and face. That suggests intent to kill by the terrorists rather than accidental wounding in crossfire.

[0007]

110. Whatever it takes get the children out of there, alive. NOW!!

Screw Putin and his rigid policy.

[Swamp Rat]

114. Kick

[Radius]

115. Evil

This is not a criminal issue. They are nonuniformed combatants and are not covered by the geneva convention. Millitary operation from the start.

They are not required quarter under the geneva convention. Ie they can be KOS. They do not have the privilidge of surrender. They are below contempt and any person who assisted should be put against a wall and shot.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,1296488,00.html

These men and their wives, since they have chosen to weaponize them, should be the first to go. God speed and I personally hope there is a hell so they can burn.

I choose not to understand their cause, I could care less what motivates a person to shoot children. My concern is that they are removed from this plane of existance as soon as possible.

They just opened up a front on a dirty war. Any restraint russia has shown so far will be removed. They will be lucky if they make to the gulags.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Radius]

124. What Exactly Does Bush have to do with this?

The russians have been running their country before he was in office, before hitler was born. You are familiar with a purge, you know who stalin was right?

Do you have a logical point or just pretty pictures?

[Swamp Rat]

134. If you believe that it is OK to line people up against a wall and shoot

them, then you and I have NO common ground with which to have a rational discussion.

Do not assume that I know nothing of history... I might even have a graduate degree or two in this area. That "pretty picture" wasn't mine, I borrowed it, and it was directed at the comment you made about killing people. It reminds me of Hitler and fascism, as well as Stalin and others. That picture was the only one I had handy to demonstrate how I felt about the horrifying statement you just made... you know, the one about lining people up against a wall and murdering them.

Again, there's no need to further this conversation as I do not believe in killing humans under any circumstances. Since you do, we therefore have nothing constructive to say to each other. If some day you become a pacifist, I may listen to what you have to say.

Good luck

[Radius]

164. Any circumstance?

That is a very broad statement.
Do you have a grad degree in russian history?

Hitlers minions executed, were they "murdered"?

Sorry I believe that people who execute children deserve to die. I'm sure if it was your kid and you could see up close what a rifle round does your opinion may change. Opinions are easy to hold when their effects don't apply to you.

[The Stranger]

122. Hold on a minute.

They are below contempt and any person who assisted should be put against a wall and shot.

You need to reconsider this statement.

[Radius]

125. Millitary OP

This was a millitary op. Any person who supported it is part of a logistical structure, arms, money, explosives, etc. They are non uniformed combatants, not civillians, they are subject to the geneva conventions which offers them no quarter.

This is not a criminal case.

[The Stranger]

140. What you described is a crime -- under any law -- involving any human.

Re-casting the labels for the people being shot does not change that, and does you a very serious disservice.

[Radius]

162. No it is not..

Under the laws of war (sounds funny) any combatant not wearing a uniform is not protected under the geneva conventions or hauge. Those people brought their war to a russian school house. A gross violation of dozens of HR laws.

Killing children or helping in that act makes these people subject to a millitary response. The law if it were to be applied as criminal law, which this case is not, the law would be russian. Their criminal courts would sentence these people to die. So either way they are dead.

[MacCovern]

129. Good post Radius!

I said it a couple of days ago and I will say it again today:
I hope the filth and the stench of radical Islamists is wiped
from the face of the earth.

Why is it only the Islamists, that I am aware of, who terrorize
school children? The sooner these so called rebels are sent
to their seat next to allah the better.

Now reports are coming out that many of the "rebels" that were
killed were Arab? Suprise, surprise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wake up folks. These people want to kill your school children also!

[Radius]

130. Error on Page

Swamp rat accused me of being a nazi and posted a silly picture. I broke the rules and insulted him.

My post was deleted, that appears to have caused my post to have been attributed to him.

[MacCovern]

133. Oops, credit now given to Radius!

The world needs to wake up and realize what is going on,
and I think these situation will help do that.

I am not trying to understand the "rebels" motives either.
When it comes to schoolchildren there is no excuse.

[Bridget Burke]

132. Yes, they're coming for our children.

Anybody can see that this has been a dreadful event.

But we dont' need your anti-Muslim crap here. Besides, even if Muslims were involved, I doubt they were Arabs.

If you're so eager to kill non-believers, why aren't you off Crusading in Iraq?

[MacCovern]

135. Yes, at least 10 were Arabs

but please not I am not against the religion of Islam.
I made sure to point out: RADICAL ISLAMISTS.

[HuckleB]

138. Hmm.

And what have you to say about the radical "Putinists"? Or are we only condemning selected terrorists today?

Oh, and how do you think they figured out that specifically ten of them were of Arab descent so quickly?

Hmm. Makes one wonder about the news one gets, doesn't it?

[MacCovern]

139. Yes, today I condemn selected terrorists!

Today the world of radical Islam reared it ugly head AGAIN,
and hundreds of school children are dead.

Today I will not have time to analyze the Putinists as you call it.
No matter what these so called "Putinists" did is any excuse
to hold children hostage, let alone SHOOT SCHOOL KIDS IN THE BACK!!!!!!!!!!!

[HuckleB]

142. Blah. Blah. Blah.

I never said anything was an excuse.

However, I have never seen those who make comments like you have here today condemn what Russia has done to Chechnya. If you don't know what Russia has done to Chechnya, then it's time you found out. You want to know about daily terror, rapes, disappearances, murders, including of thousands of children. Now that's a history of terror umatched by the whole of Muslim extremists.

So where is the outrage about that?

Sorry, but I don't think that it's just today that you are being selective. If I'm wrong, please point me to the posts you've made that show otherwise.

Thank you.

[MacCovern]

144. Thousands of Chechnyan children murdered?

Sure, show me stories of those atrocities, and I will look
at it some other day.

Please don't have these reports come from "Radical Islamic Chechnya Monthly",but from a real news source.

[HuckleB]

145. My GOD!

You really don't know what's gone on in Chechnya, do you?

I've posted tons of sources on the various discussions about Chechnya, and I'm not the only one. Look at my posts. Don't play games and try to make me do your homework again. Your one-sided condemnation is clearly offered out of ignorance. It's time to inform yourself.

There are very big reasons why every human rights organization in the world has repeatedly condemned Russia for its atrocities in Chechnya. So take your clear Islamophobia elsewhere, and take a look at reality.

Sheesh.

:eyes:

[rastignac5]

146. Yesterday, you said the Russians deliberately targeted tens of thousands

of Chechen children for murder. I would like to see links to that documentation now.

[HuckleB]

178. The links are all over these pages at DU.

Inform yourself, my friend. I don't partake is bullshit hyperbole. I only say what I know from strong and lengthy research.

[HuckleB]

186. An incident connected to the recent plane bombings.

Women moved by family not ideology
http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,1294685,00.html

[HuckleB]

188. More...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1213034,00.html

AND

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1296220,00.html

AND

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,859806,00.html

AND

http://www.mosnews.com/feature/2004/09/01/terror.shtml

AND

http://www.hrvc.net/articles/kuhner.htm

AND

http://www.hrvc.net/articles/zbrzezinski.html

AND

http://www.hrvc.net/west/12-10-03.htm

AND

http://www.hrvc.net/articles/koshmel.html

AND

http://www.hrvc.net/articles/osgood.html

AND

http://www.hrvc.net/articles/putley.html

AND

http://www.hrvc.net/articles/boston.html

AND

http://www.theoathbook.com/op-ed.php

And, yes, I could go on and on and on...

[Aidoneus]

154. amazing, isn't it?

those knowing the least knowing it the loudest..

the next reply to you even more surreal.

:wow:

[HuckleB]

179. Indeed.

It's just so bloody scary to see it at DU.

[Radius]

136. Chechen seps

Are generally muslims, and have been trending towards wahabbist (fundie) islam.

BBC reporting 10 arabs KIAed in the attack. I would bet they are not sikh.

[LanternWaste]

212. Waco, Jonestown, Ulster, Heaven's Gate, Solar Temple, KKK...

There was a radical Christian sect in Waco, Texas that terrorized school children. There was another one in Jonestown, Guyana that terrorized school children.

There are school children in Ulster that are terrorized as we speak due (part and parcel) to the infighting between Christians as we speak. As a Christian, I hope the filth and stench of radical Christianity is wiped from the face of the earth.

Heaven's Gate, the Solar Temple, the nerve gas planted in Tokyo's subway - all these were religious atrocities and had nothing to do with Islam. So are shootings at abortion clinics ("pro-life" murder) and bombings at gay nightclubs.

The KKK uses Christianity and the Bible as justification for the indoctrination of children. Cross-burnings, predominantly all-black church burnings, white flight...

Report have come out that many of the "patriots" involved were "white, God-fearin', gun-totin', law-and-order" types. Surprise, surprise!!!!

Wake up. These folks want to kill your children also. :eyes:

{exasperated sarcasm off}

[HuckleB]

137. Thanks for the apparent hypocrisy.

Unless you are advocating the same for Putin and his henchmen in the Caucasus, your post offers nothing but angry hypocrisy.

Yes, these men and women did an evil deed, but it was not done in a vacuum, and I won't pretend that it was. You cannot hammer away with such condemnation without offering it for Russia as well without completely erasing any hope of justice behind your comments.

[Radius]

160. Pearl Harbor

Did not happen in a vaccum. Nothing happens in a vaccum.
So three choices exist, sit the fence, support the russians in crushing chechen uprising, or support the chechens.

Which ever you choose, taking children hostage and killing them is unacceptable. There is no act that justafies it.

[HuckleB]

180. Wrong.

The real choice is supporting the vast majority of the Chechen population that has nothing to do with the uprising yet faces daily terror at the hands of Russia. These are the people who have suffered most, be it from Russian soldiers or Chechen warlords.

Sorry, but your black and white world doesn't exist in reality.

[Radius]

200. Reality

is relative and only as complex as you make it.

[bemildred]

202. So I suppose you are absolutely confident about that?

It is nice to know that reality can be relatively simple,
if you are.

[Radius]

208. Simplicity is abound in nature

complexity is a human failure.
I see no reason to make this complex.
People who target and kill kids are bad. They deserve to die. Their politics are not my concern.

If they want to blow up millitary targets have at it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

211. What you advocate is much more than the death penalty

It's throwing away the rule of law. And don't "they're exempt from Geneva" me. Summary execution = the opposite of civilization.

[Radius]

216. I looked up before I posted it.

The convention accords them protection from rape and torture but not tribunal.

recognition and allowance of this varies by country, there was a us supreme court case in '42 upholding millitary jurisdiction of captured agents. Most western powers recognize this allowance in the law, but do not use it.

I agree think should be executed within the framework of the law.

[HuckleB]

223. In other words, you have no argument.

Thanks for the admission.

[Aidoneus]

149. 'restraint'?

are you fucking joking?!

[Radius]

168. The Russians

will not respond to this, harshly. Killing kids in school will not temper their response...

[bemildred]

219. Some excellent lines:

"The Iraq war and Chechen war are unrelated."
"If the chechens and arabs began shooting children, the police would be forced to storm the building."

"Nothing happens in a vaccum."
"Reality is relative and only as complex as you make it."

"Simplicity is abound in nature"
"complexity is a human failure"

Reminds me of Bush a little.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

150. Let me see if I get this straight

Suppose one of the terrorists comes out of the building shouting "I surrender," with both hands up in the air. Do you advocate shooting this individual right then and there?

[Radius]

217. No quarter

Means no protection under the geneva convention as pow. They have protection from rape and torture, but not a death sentence.

They are subject to interrogation, tribunal, and a death sentence carried out in the field if three officers agree on the sentence.

Ie they get run up the fucking yardarm.

Different countries allow for this but I'm pretty sure no one has been killed with this law since ww2. Could be wrong.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

161. Being in this forum will not make you happy. You'll feel more comfy here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1206345/posts

To: Former Military Chick
If numerous hostages are killed, Russia must wipe out the extended family of all Mohammedans involved here.
11 posted on 09/03/2004 2:29:33 AM PDT by dennisw (Allah FUBAR!)

More like your style.

[Radius]

167. Are you serious?

What do our politics have to do with a millitary operation in Russia.

Being a democrat does not make me tolerant of child murder or ignorant of international law.

By carrying out a millitary op the "terrorists" have made themselves and their family, if they supported them, combatants with no protection under international law. Plus they are in russia, who do not use the same criminal justice system as we do.

Take off your american hat and put on your international observer hat. This has nothing to do with elections, bush, iraq, or the un.

These people killed a bunch of kids, I believe they should pay with their lives, as well as anyone who conspired before the fact.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

169. Sure, shoot them on the spot IF it's a combat situation

But if somehow they happen to be aprehended alive, they should be arrested and put to trial. You calling surrender a "privilege" they "no longer have" is frightening.

You may enlighten me more by answering post 150.

And lastly, I'm neither American nor Russian. (I thought my sig would be a dead giveaway)

[Radius]

204. Piracy, Spies, saboteurs

Are exempt from the Geneva conventions, and subject to tribunal. Basically summary execution in the field.

So technically if they throw a white flag you can interrogate them and three officers can pass judgment and sentence on the spot. That sentence has usually been death. The us and British shot British illegal combatants, last time someone was executed in the Tower if memory serves.

I am not aware of this being used since ww2, but the provision is very clear.

I saw your sig but people post all kind of stuff so I didn't assume..

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

206. "These cases are not covered by this document" is not the same as

"We declare that shooting these people unarmed, while trying to surrender, or while already subdued, without trial, is a-OK". Please link to the place that says I am wrong.

You haven't answered post #150 yet.

[Radius]

218. Tribunal

is a military trial for illegal combatants(no uniform, spies, etc). sentence can be carried out immediately in the field.

It is within the law as written.

[allemand]

119. BBC - Interfax: Some children still held hostage

Will this horror never end??

[JuniorPlankton]

127. According to President's adviser Aslambek Aslahanov

the number of victims (dead) may substantially exceed 150.

11.35 EST

[allemand]

121. AFP: 10 Arabs among 20 militants killed

Arabs !

[Radius]

126. Supporting their islamic brothers in arms(NT)

[The Stranger]

123. How could they allow a "dozen" (as reported) to escape?

[Junkdrawer]

141. Something about this whole incident is starting to smell...

The timing couldn't be more perfect to reignite the fears of the American public (re: terrorism).

Reports of "Arabs" among the terrorists.

Most of the terrorists escaping.

:tinfoilhat:

[HuckleB]

143. Alas, we'll likely never know the whole truth about it.

Russia is very good at what it does in terms of press control. It's scary.

[Nadienne]

156. Yup

"Valery Andreyev, the top Federal Security Service official in the region, said 20 militants were killed, including 10 Arabs. The Arab presence among the attackers would support President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites)'s contention that al-Qaida terrorists were involved in the Chechen conflict, where Muslim fighters have been fighting Russian forces in a brutal a war of independence for most of the past decade."

from http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20040903/ap_on_re_eu/russia_school_seizure_32

And an article a coworker read out loud claimed that this situation might be the cause of elections in Russia. I'm looking for a link to that article, and will update when I find it.

Updated: The article was from a few hours ago. I can't find it. I don't know which news agency did the story. But I distinctly remember that the article talked about the elections before it talked about the demands for Russia's involvement with Chechnya.

[SoCalDem]

159. What on earth does Chechnya HAVE that makes it worth a TEN yr war?

It seems to me that if a "former" Soviet state wants its independence THAT badly...GIVE IT TO THEM !!!

At this point it would appear to be giving in to terrorism, but geeeeezzz.. :cry:

[Junkdrawer]

166. Three guesses. First 200 don't count...

Chechnya oil riches fuel war

In the chaos of the Chechnya war, one image stands out as a sign of why both sides are losing - that of the rebel who has run out of petrol for his Jeep, dashing between dugouts on a bicycle.

This is an old-fashioned war, for Chechen independence and Russian self-esteem, but also a more modern one, for oil. Grozny's dwindling supplies will please Russia's generals, but for Kremlin strategists they are a reminder that Moscow's long-term goal of dominating the Caspian basin and its vast oil and gas reserves is as elusive as ever.

Before the 1994-96 war, Grozny's network of refineries made it the second biggest oil city in the region after Baku, the capital of Azerbaijan. Geologists said up to 200 billion barrels lay beneath the Caspian, and there was every sign that Moscow would retain a leading role in the lucrative business of selling it. The Russian pipeline which pumped 100,000 barrels of crude a day to the Black Sea has been closed since summer.

Behind the rhetoric of an "anti-terrorist operation", it is clear that Moscow launched this war partly to keep a toehold in what may be the world's richest oil region outside the Middle East.

Yet as a policy initiative it has failed: the fighting has boosted two huge US-backed schemes to build pipelines through the Caucasus to Turkey, while a new Russian one that bypasses Chechnya may have nothing to pump when completed.

...

http://www.calguard.ca.gov/ia/Chechnya/chechnya_oil_riches_fuel_war.htm

[Pachamama]

173. You know the song from Springsteen - WAR - Say it again......

O-I-L

Isn't it what is driving all our fascist leaders these days?

I'm so sick to my stomach....all those babies and children....because of Pachamama's Blood (her oil)....

[lebkuchen]

177. I completely agree. nftn

[Pachamama]

174. I think your on to something...I thought the very same thing when I heard

about the "20 Arab Mercenaries" amongst the terrorists....and most of them escaping?

Stay tuned...is it true or a favor to Bush from Putin? Was this a prelude/warmup to what they are planning for our kids in the next 60 days? Get Americans so sickened seeing their children attacked?

:tinfoilhat:

Makes you wonder, doesn't it? I don't feel good about this at all...something isn't right...

[Junkdrawer]

175. I posted this on an unrelated thread...

In a few days, we hit one of the two periods of maximal danger...

Period 1: After the polling "boost" from the "home run" speech is announced - Before the debates begin.

Period 2: Days before the election - just like Spain last year.

Again: Everything depends on whether "they" want to go after Iran. The massive buildup (including a draft) needed for an Iranian invasion will require a "second Pearl Harbor". Otherwise, media control and a good helping of Diebold help should be enough.

[Fleshdancer]

128. CNN online has a photo of an injured girl on their front page....

I can't stop crying. My heart goes out to Russia right now and especially to all the victims and their parents. This is every parent's vision of complete hell.

[allemand]

131. Interfax: Presidential aide saying death toll significantly more than 150

Haaretz:
18:54 Interfax cites Russian presidential aide as saying death toll in school hostage crisis could be significantly more than 150

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/ShTickers.html

[allemand]

151. TASS: 227 children among 646 in hospital n/t

[Book Lover]

155. My heart is breaking

All those beautiful little babies and kiddies... I feel sick.

[lebkuchen]

176. ITV's Julian Manyan has done a superb job of reporting

this story. Kudos! Objective under the most severe conditions.

[allemand]

181. CNN - Russian TV: Death toll may be over 500 n/t

[HuckleB]

182. 'Disturbing failures' in school assault -- BBC --

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3625744.stm

[allemand]

184. BBC - Reports: 3 hostage takers captured alive

But other 4 may have escaped.

[samtob]

185. punishment

Emotionally (first reaction as a mother) I wish for a horrible death in regards to the terrorists. Killing these children, especially shooting the ones who were running for safety was barbaric and beneath contempt.

Admittedly not well versed on Russian law, what will become of the ones captured alive?

[allemand]

187. Interesting question

I think Russia has a moratorium on the death penalty.

This is from February 2004:
"Russia imposed a moratorium on the death penalty, which will apply until jury courts are established in all regions of the Russian Federation. For his part, Russian President Vladimir Putin has repeatedly said he was against the lifting of the moratorium."
http://www.gateway2russia.com/st/art_210105.php

There will certainly be a debate now about the reintroduction of capital punishment in Russia.

Welcome to DU ! :hi:

[samtob]

189. Life in prison...

is the only other current option then I would suppose. Assuming lifting the moratorium would not be retroactive.

The whole ordeal is nauseating, I have kids the same age (elementary school) as I see bloodied on the reports. I cannot imagine the fear. :-(

Thank you for the welcome..I was fearing some sort wild initiation until I have reached over 200 posts :P

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

209. They should make a zoo out of them

Place them in a cage inside a room, somewhat like where Hannibal was held in Silence of the Lambs. The rest of the room would be an exhibit about the atrocity, so people could see firsthand what a monster looks like.

[Radius]

201. Civillians vs Millitary

I wonder if the russians will consider these people millitary combatants and treat them as allowed under the geneva convention.

Millitary tribunal, death by firing squad, hanging.

IMHO this was a millitary op by foreign non uniformed combatants and they should be treated acccordingly.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

207. Keep in mind that not all of them are foreign

Assuming the reports about the 10 Arabs is correct. Chechnya isn't a sovereign country. It's part of Russia.

[Radius]

213. indeed..

Usually I do not support the death penalty but here I hope an exception is made.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

215. You may get what you wish

Russia is not like those wimpy Western coutries that cling to weakling concepts like "no retroactivity". They know how to properly throw away pseudo-intellectual affectations like "rule of law" when it's needed.

[allemand]

226. Legal...!

:thumbsup:

[HuckleB]

191. STATEMENT BY The Chechen Republic of Ichkeria

We express our deepest condolences and call for an independent transparent international investigation
http://www.chechentimes.org/en/news/?id=21098

"The Ministry of Foreign Affairs expresses our deepest condolences to the relatives and friends of all victims of the hostage taking in Beslan. The Chechen nation, having lost 25 % of its population at the hands of the Russian state policy of genocide during the last 10 years, know very well the pain of loosing the loved ones, the horrors of monstrous brutality against innocent defenceless people, children, women and men. There is no a single Chechen whose relatives and friends have not been murdered, tortured or raped by the Russian troops and security services since December 1994.

..."

[Nadienne]

193. Wow

"As the past experience tells us that Russian security services often are involved in planning, executing or manipulating various terrorist attacks on the territory of Russia, including the apartment bombings in Moscow in 1999 and the hostage taking in the Moscow theatre in 2002, we call upon all Russian citizens to demand from the Russian government to agree to an independent and transparent international investigation of this hostage taking in Beslan."

Bold words. I hope they get an answer.

[Vladimir]

194. I would like to express my utter disgust

with both this despicable and unjustifiable act of terrorism, and certain comments here calling for summary executions of rebels, their families, anyone who assisted etc. When you wish to condemn an opponent for plumbing the depths of humanity, take care not to let the condemnation come out of the sewer...

I do believe that the perpetrators here have placed themselves beyond the pale and should face the full justice available before Russian law. Nothing, but nothing, gives one the right to do this to children. If the perpetrators do receive any support back home after this, it will be a measure of where Putin's genocide in the region has left the local population... when you demonise and dehumanize an enemy for so long, do not be surprised if you end up fighting your own caricature.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

205. Hear hear

Justice must never be administered from the gut, only from the hard, cold, unemotional letter of the law.

[Rhiannon12866]

225. I agree with you completely

These people are now being condemned as "an international band of terrorists" by the Russian government. They deserve the same punishment as anyone who was responsible for taking part in 9/11 in America. I am anti-capital punishment, but this horrible and despicable act, perpetrated on innocent Russian schoolchildren, for God's sake, truly crosses any line, in anyone's book.:grr:

[Swede]

195. What on earth can be done to these beasts.

On BBC they were talking to a young boy,he couldn't remember his name he was so fucked up. Young girls stripped naked grabbing bottled water, 5 year boy devouring crackers. I am sick to my stomach. A crying soldier carrying a dead schoolgirl.