Germany to deliver 2 submarines to Israel

[F.Gordon]

Germany to deliver 2 submarines to Israel capable of carrying nuke warheads

German Defense Minister Peter Struck has finally given green light for the delivery of two submarines to Israel which are also capable of carrying nuclear warheads, IRNA reported from Berlin.

"We are certainly prepared to help Israel in the acquisition," the minister said Thursday in an interview with the economic daily Handelsblatt.

Berlin halted unexpectedly last November the delivery of two German-made 'Dolphin' submarines to Israel, citing fears of a new arms race in the Mideast region.

The center-leftist German government coalition also expressed deep concerns after Israel modified three other German submarines with nuclear warheads.

http://www.payvand.com/news/04/sep/1076.html

[wuushew]

1. How does Germany know they were modified for nuke purposes

when Israel itself refuses to confirm or deny possession of nuclear weapons?

[F.Gordon]

5. Speculation? WAG? Complete nonsense? Rapture?

Therefore the arms race is on, with Israel as the latest entrant to the club.According to the Sunday Times of London, Israel secretly test-fired cruise missiles capable of carrying nuclear weapons off the coast of Sri Lanka, in May 2000.

The paper reported that tests were conducted from two German-built Dolphin-class submarines and involved Israeli-made missiles, equipped with conventional war heads, hitting targets at sea at a range of about 1,500 kilometres. Nevertheless, reports of the Dolphin's cruise-missile capability continue to surface in the foreign press, Israel has never admitted that it has any cruise missiles. Israel said that it has sought Tomahawks from US, which has so far rejected the request.According to reports, three 1,925-ton Type 800 Dolphin class submarines have been built in German shipyards for Israel Navy. Modern submarines with the most advanced sailing and combat system in the world, they continue extensive sophistication with very easy operation. The purpose of this submarine is to enable the Israel Navy to meet all the tasks faced in the Mediterranean Sea in the 21st century.

http://www.news.tamilcanadian.com/news/2000/07/20000711_1.shtml

Sorry, but I can't answer your question.

[Radius]

9. Dual Use

A tomahawk can carry a 1000lb warhead or w86 250kt thermonuclear weapon.

Nuclear capable may mean cruise missile capable. Being able to fire a cruise missle does not confirm nuclear ordinance.

[Surf Cowboy]

2. Talk about your strange bedfellows...

[Trajan]

3. Hey ! ...

THAT will help them sneak into Norfolk .... or King's Bay .... or or Coronado ..... or .....

[Radius]

4. BTW

Israels Diesel Electric fleet is not designed for Norfolk. Our ASW capabilities can deal with anything built today. This is basically ww2 technology.
This is a building arms race with Iran and their nuclear weapons program.

I wonder if Germany will become a target for helping the evil Zionists? How will the terrorists keep up.

[wuushew]

6. Not necessarily

Modern diesel-electrics produced both by Germany and the Russians are very quiet and are constructed from low magnetic hull materials. I don't know this particular class of submarine has great range, certainly enough to threaten Iran however.

[Radius]

8. ASW

I'm sitting next to a guy who was an asw guy in the early nineties. We have mad arrays and towed arrays that can detect these subs easily. We owned the Russians at the end of the cold war. We trained with the Germans and are adept at detecting their systems. We gamed with them using their subs as "Chinese" DE targets. We won.

The Iranians do not have any real ASW capability. These subs are not a threat to us any more than the f-16s and vast array of weaponry we sell Israel.

PS Europe sells them lots of systems to but don't tell any one so they don't incur the wrath of allah.

[F.Gordon]

12. Range: 4500 miles?

http://www.dolphin.org.il/dolphins/

If this is the same class of German subs?

[madrchsod]

7. the Germans have been selling

subs to the Israeli navy since it was created. this new class of diesels are based on the latest d-e tech available. they are a few years advanced of the Iranian-Russian designs at this moment but since there is a arms race in the middle east the Russians will be upgrading as fast as possible..
there must be quite an interesting sub cat and mouse game going on under the Arabian Sea / Persian Gulf

[AngryAmish]

10. Why would Israel do this?

Well, they are building a three legged nuclear deterrent. They have long-range missiles, aircraft and now submarines which can be nuclear armed. So Iran decides to nuke Tel Aviv. Tehran gets nuked as well as all the other large cities in Iran. And maybe Mecca, too.

Mutual assured destruction. Plus Israel could do a sneak attack and cut off the threat from Iran. Bad for peace, good for the interests of Israel.

[daleo]

11. It is all very MAD

Israel's relatively small, concentrated population means that its "tit for tat" response would have to be truly massive, were some "genocide and counter-genocide" nuclear strategy to develop against Iran or some other nuclear middle eastern power. This would have dire repercussions in that part of the world, and probably globally (fallout and nuclear winter considerations). There would be no winners.

[Radius]

13. Bad

Is an understatement. Fallout would be a significant event. Nuclear winter is a myth. Volcanos eject more dust and ash into the atmosphere than a 100mt exchange between iran and israel would. A 10000mt plus exchange between the ussr and us was the source of this theory.

This is a run up to a new cold war.

[daleo]

14. I don't know if nuclear winter is a myth

The earth's albedo is a very important parameter for the planetary climate. Since there have been no 1000 mt exchanges (or worse) we can't really be sure what the effect would be. Mushroom clouds are part of it, but so are burning cities, possibly huge forest fires, oil storage tanks, refineries, millions of burning cars, etc. Remember, all these fires would have to burn themselves out - nobody could go near them. It wouldn't be like London during the blitz, in that respect. I wouldn't count nuclear winter out, even though it has become somewhat fashionable to do so. But let's hope we never have to find out which theory is correct.

And fallout would be a catastrophe, particularly in the case of a "Samson Option" strategy, which would probably have to involve extremely dirty bombs.

In some ways MAD in the middle east is an even worse prospect than the old U.S.-U.S.S.R. cold war, precisely because Israel's small population means it can't afford any kind of gradual escalation, as some believed might have been possible between the U.S. and U.S.S.R., given their relative parity in population and nuclear weaponry.