(URGENT) NK explosion-mushroom cloud

[HopeIsNowHere]

A reliable source in Seoul's diplomatic community says Sunday a mushroom cloud with a radius of 3.5 to 4 kilometers was spotted in Kimhyongjik County in North Korea's northernmost inland province of Yanggang on Sept. 9.

http://english.yna.co.kr/Engnews/20040912/320000000020040912120049E7.html

[Citizen Daryl]

1. Oh shit.

:(

[Cronus Protagonist]

209. Here's the photo...

http://bushspeaks.com/home.asp?did=75



"I view our nuclear arsenal as a deterrent, as
a way to say to people that would harm America,
don't do it. That's a deterrent, that there's a con-
sequence. And the President must have all options
available to make that deterrent have meaning."

— G. W. Bush (Source: The Whitehouse)

[Swamp Rat]

212. Aww! What a cute little RNEP!

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. now that is a nuke

[LisaL]

3. probably a nuke test

timed to 911?
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040911_1461.html

[Deja Q]

4. Either the N. Koreans screwed up or we've pulled another pre-emptive boner

:scared:

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Nope I say the North Koreans have sent us a message

loud and clear

[HopeIsNowHere]

13. America is shivering in its shoes

Not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Rightto

lets see if we continue to pull out troops, before we conclude this, shall we? The Korean war may be just getting primed... and this time not necesarily because Bush wants one (he does) but becasue Bush is an inconpetent fool...

[HopeIsNowHere]

36. I would pull all our ground troops in SK

We don't need ground troops there until all the big bombs have gone off.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Need I remind yuo that we are still at War with NK?

That is part of the problem and yes I am aware I-Corp is there to deterr an invasion and would merely be a speed bump, but still

[barb162]

63. it's almost hetting on to be like the 100 years war.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Yep

scary since the fluff I have written for a game actually uses a lot of this junk... hell I will have to revise it now... I implied this... now I will have to be clear on this

[Kool Kitty]

124. If all the "big bombs" ever do go off,

we won't need any troops. We'd probably be history. (I am assuming you mean all the big bombs, which we have the lion's share of, not that you would need more than few.)

[Ohio rules]

118. Let China be the mail man

Should we appease Kim ?
No

[Deja Q]

220. Oh, they've sent us messages before. They are merely upping the ante.

* had insulted their leader, what with the uber-professional "pygmy" comment and all :eyes:, amongst the "Bush Doctrine" boasting our desire to pre-emptively attack anybody.

The North Koreans, to coin a phrase, have just said "Bring it on".

Extinct is forever.

[Pachamama]

214. My thoughts exactly....

and that its a warning from the N. Koreans....

ugh, I feel sick.....

[jayfish]

5. Lets Wait For Some Confirmation On This Before We Jump...

the gun on a response. Does anyone know the last time a nuclear device was detonated above ground?


Jay

[Media_Lies_Daily]

7. Exactly. Good call.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. hmm 1960s iirc

and it was a chinese device if I remember correctly... sorry if I am a tad ahem, shaky in my history

If this is the case though, that doomsday clock has just moved a second closer to doomsday.. I knwo I know I am being possitive, it has moved

[hatrack]

76. I think 1966 or 1967 in China or India

The Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty brought most airburst tests, US and USSR to an end in 1963.

[Comadreja]

176. Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty? Sissy Stuff

Didn't the NeoCons decide to declare all such agreements outdated?

[fearnobush]

18. I believe it was around 1960.

[quaoar]

23. One would do it above ground

If one wanted the rest of the world to take notice -- and if one didn't particularly give a rip about irradiating the populace.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Depends where the prevailing winds take teh junk

if they take them towarsd China you think Kim cares?

As is we could detect taht test with sysmographers but this is such a closed society that we woudl say it was just an earthquake

[Ediacara]

186. Incidentally

The USGS is showing no EQ activity on the Korean Penninsula in the last week.

[jayfish]

40. I Don't Know... I Just Can't Fathom Anyone Making A Move This...

blatantly reckless. It's not sane. If Kim is truly mentally ill and controls nuclear weapons we have very few choices left to make.

Jay

[Wright Patman]

83. If * is truly mentally ill

(and I believe he is) and controls nuclear weapons we have very few choices left to make.

Projection is one sign of mental illness and * is constantly projecting his own evils upon others.

[diamond14]

49. USA above ground nuclear explosions: July 16, 1945 to Nov. 4, 1964, BUT

during that time, the USA conducted 216 radioactive nuclear bomb explosions in the atmosphere and oceans, and the Soviet Union conducted 217....

Since the Limited Test Ban Treaty on Aug. 5, 1963, nuclear testing in the atmosphere, oceans, and cosmic space ceased for the USA and the Soviet Union. So, both nations VIGOROUSLY went underground. The USA set of 1149 underground radioactive nuclear explosions, with last explosion on Sept. 23, 1992....The Soviet Union created 969 radioactive nuclear explosions, up to October October 24, 1990....


A GIANT WASTE OF AMERICAN TAXPAYERS MONEY...making Weapons of Mass Destruction to for ORGANIZED MASS KILLING....USA started the nuclear arms race, by dropping atomic bombs in WWII...according to the Brookiings Institute, over 5 TRILLION DOLLARS of OUR tax money has been spent on nuclear madness, creating huge numbers of atomic bombs, enough to blow up the whole world many times over....

bush* has recently re-started the "creation of the element PLUTONIUM", a human-made element used in the biggest nuclear BOMBS to KILL humans, and all living things....bush* has also recently re-started underground radioactive nuclear explosions, which will continue to KILL Americans by moving toxic radionuclides through groundwater and soils and into foods and drinking water for thousands of years...

BOOT BUSH...save America...
http://www.JohnKerry.com

[Apple Smoothie]

102. exactly...

"Nature of Blast in N. Korea Unclear: U.S. Diplomatic Sources
WASHINGTON, Sept. 11 (Yonhap) -- A diplomatic source here said a huge explosion reported to have occurred in North Korea appears not to be a nuclear weapons test, but said it remains unclear whether it was a natural disaster or an accident.

Another source raised the possibility of a forest fire, citing huge clouds of smoke, and added that there is a rumor that the explosion occurred near the Demilitarized Zone, not the northernmost province of Yanggang as reported."

http://english.yna.co.kr/Engnews/20040912/301100000020040912130313E0.html

[Comadreja]

182. what if it had been Iran?

Anyone doubt that FOX would be all over it like a cheap suit? N. Korea is not Islamic and is therefore way off the corporate media's Islamophobic hysteria agenda. They don't want the Boobs to get confused about where the nexus of true Evil lies...any place poor,Islamic, militarily weak and with resources. Think our Pentagon Pansies want to fight a nation that could actually put up a fight?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

199. Iraq was a pushover, so Bush attacked. NKorea and Iran no pushovers. . .nt

[Renew Deal]

198. Here is a video of an above ground Nuke

undated

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/atomicbomb.wmv

[brainshrub]

6. That was 2 days ago, right?

[Spiffarino]

8. The article did say Sept. 9th n/t

:wtf:

[Maple]

11. Yes, announced today here

but happened 2 days ago.

North Korea isn't on satellite feeds with live coverage, being as isolated as they are.

[Spiffarino]

25. Shouldn't matter

NSA has satellites that can detect even small nuclear detonations. I doubt that, if this did happen, that the US govt. didn't already know about it. Something stinks.

[brainshrub]

34. Precisely my thoughts.

If this was on purpose, we now know 100% for sure that N. Korea has the bomb. Perhaps that's why they didn't tell us.

N. Korea is far more likely to sell technology than Saddam ever was. (And Saddam didn't have any WMDs.)

[dArKeR]

42. You know our satellites can pick that stuff up. The news has been

talking about NK might have a test for 2 days now. Doesn't it seem more likely that the aWol Adm. is manipulating the information. They new about it when it happened but they actually didn't have any prior intel so they fed the news to their moles in the Whore Media to get the word out that it might happen when actually it already had happened. This way aWol doesn't look as stupid and he really is.

[jayfish]

45. ABC IS Reporting A Similar Story.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=820082&mesg_id=820082

Claims that damage could be seen via satellite.

Jay

[hatrack]

77. Did any reports mention a double-flash signature?

That's definitive proof of a nuclear explosion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

141. Nobody has mentioned that

but it was deep in their territory, only way to see it would be
satellites, and if they don't want us the unwashed masses to know... want to lay bets on when or if that would be revealed?

For the moment I am assuming the worst and that they did test, but hoping for the best and this was an incredible powerful industrial accident.

[Quetzal]

10. n/t

[Kali]

14. WTF????

any thing else on this?????

[yardwork]

15. Every large explosion creates a mushroom cloud

because of the physics of exploding air. It doesn't mean it was nuclear.

If it was a nuclear explosion of some kind, then South Korea, Russia, and the United States knew right away. There are monitors that check the air for radioactive isotopes.

I don't expect that South Korea, Russia, or Washington will tell us, though.

[renegade000]

29. well a mushroom cloud miles in diameter

would take a hell of a lot of conventional explosions...not out of the question (maybe a factory/depot) but given that they've been developing nukes :scared:

[struggle4progress]

54. The Indian and Pakistani tests were reported in the standard press. eom

[Ohio rules]

192. Indias nuke tests were underground

I remember they said nukes could be used in ...mining applications !! ;) :)

[Raster]

16. one of the benefits of having spy satellites that can see down...

...to one square meter is that you can detect something as visual as a mushroom cloud from an atomic explosion. Satellites would also detect the light flash and probably infrared energy and even perhaps radiation pulse. Earthbound sensors would detect the movement in the planet. North Korea is one of the most heavily observed areas on the planet. A nuclear explosion happened and almost nobody knew? I don't think so.

[steely]

22. right - there are a ton of birds that can see gamma bursts

and I'm not talking spy types.

[Raster]

33. there are several companies that will provide fly-over photos of any...

...point on the face of the planet.

[AZCat]

43. Not anymore...

Don't you remember when, right before we bombed Afghanistan, the Bush administration bought the exclusive rights to satellite images from a huge chunk of real estate for several years?

I guess they knew we would check up on their false claims of WMD-related program-like activities in Iraq-area countries...

[Raster]

51. no I don't. Do you have any links or futher info?

[AZCat]

69. Aack! Correction! (and links)

Thank you for asking - your call for a 'fact check' has made me issue this apology for talking with my foot in my mouth.

Here are the links and the relevant info:

Houston Chronicle- Satellite Imagery Gives War a New Look
Private firms help provide perspective
By MARK CARREAU
March 30, 2003, 12:44PM
Copyright 2003 Houston Chronicle

<snip>
During the U.S. pursuit of the Taliban and al-Qaida elements in Afghanistan, NIMA struck a three-month deal with Space Imaging, the only commercial provider at the time, for exclusive rights to the imagery collected by the company there and in neighboring Pakistan.

Control soon slipped away as DigitalGlobe's Quickbird, an Israeli company's Eros satellite and other spacecraft were launched.
</snip>

Scowcroft's Vanishing Plan
By Vernon Loeb
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, July 15, 2002; 8:01 AM

<snip>
Purchasing high-quality commercial satellite imagery from companies like Space Imaging, Clapper said, provides one way around thorny legal issues presented by the production and distribution of classified, super high-resolution satellite imagery of objects in the United States.

But Clapper questioned NIMA's decision to purchase all of the satellite imagery of Afghanistan produced by Space Imaging during the first 60 days of the war on terrorism. That imagery was purchased, he said, to fill gaps in coverage by U.S. spy satellites and deny access to al Qaeda and other adversaries.

Any future attempt by NIMA to exercise "checkbook shutter control, as some have called it," Clapper said, "would be on an extremely limited basis. I think doing so frankly does have a chilling impact on the industry and those who might choose to invest in it."
</snip>

Note: NIMA is the National Imagery and Mapping Agency, and Clapper is James R. Clapper Jr., a retired Air Force lieutenant general who was the head of NIMA at the time of the article (I don't know if he still is).

[steely]

86. but there's also some that "see" in nonvisible, but

detect nuke transients - and report them in realtime. Los Alamos launched a non-proliferation bird some yrs back, and some instruments were modified for then future (now present) missions.

The ones in visbile weren't so plenty, so they were in top demand, hence the high demand for alt. sources, that and the accuracies demanded require them to sort of loiter in low altitude (not many). Ground station coverage has something to do with it too.

But some that see transient nuke flashes are in constellations - and communicate with each other, so you can know what happened on the other side (of the orb) instantly.

believe me, if a nuke went off somewhere - we know it.

editted for typo

[Maple]

44. In the 60s you were also told

you could take out any incoming missiles. A capability that still doesn't exist.

Neither do spy satellites covering 'every inch of earth' or the ability to detect weapons.

If you did, Iraq wouldn't have been invaded.

[Bleacher Creature]

17. At least we took care of all the nukes in Iraq

On second thought . . . .

[name not needed]

19. shit.

[expatriot]

20. Good thing Bush has raided our mil. readiness on the Korean penn. for Iraq

[expatriot]

32. China will take them out if things get tense....

China does not want regional instability... If I was the Chinese Army I would be massing forces on the border. Just think, the Chinese could swarm into NK on this news and the world would give it a free pass. "Pre-emptive doctrine"

[Hard Attack]

55. China is not an ally of the United States

I wouldn't count on China to much to respond, in fact, In the near future we just might find ourselves in a showdown with Communist China.

China is telling us one thing, pretending about talks, yet at the same time they have their own agenda.

Remember when the train blast went off back in April, America offered assistance, and what did North Korea say they need...

50 Color TV's.....

What did that mean?, That means that they are watching everything we do.

[Radius]

75. China or not..

I would bet the farm at least two Ohio class subs are sitting within range of NK and have concentric circles drawn representing the blast effect of 250kt thermonuclear weapons on NK targets. Each possessing an even gross of these weapons.

It would be safe to assume that f-117 or B-2 are on ready alert to drop nuclear weapons on NK targets, in the event of a NCA order. This capability gives US the ability to hit first with no notice. Taking down com networks and defense systems. Leaving them open to a full nuclear response.

ALA wing plan "R", for you strangelove fans.
China does not want the dear leader to disrupt its money.

[Ohio rules]

123. ...or Urban Legend

If this happened two days ago.It would have been main stream media this morning.
No conspierecy,no coverup.
?
Didn't somebody on this board mention 12 army humvies were stolen in Iraq?
Did we ever get a link on that story?

[Knurled99]

172. The US has the largest trade deficit in the hisory of

the world with China... 15 billion dollars. I don't think they want to mess with that.

[bluestateguy]

21. Has the story "gone corporate" yet?

Becuase CNN is still doing it's 9/11 gushfest.

[CHIMO]

24. Big Explosion Reported in N.Korea

SEOUL (Reuters) - A huge explosion rocked an area in North Korea near the border with China three days ago and the accident appears to be much worse than a train blast that killed at least 170 people in April, Yonhap news agency reported on Sunday.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=6211050

[Ohio rules]

128. Iran also had "exploding train" problems

in the past.
But anyway,
The official Chinese media has no mention of this story
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/index.htm

A 9/11 Urban legend

[Fovea]

27. The story says Sept 9th... why no seizmographic announcement?

and our seismographic system did not warn us. WTF!

Popping a nuke makes a loud noise, all through the planet.
So why weren't we informed?

[yardwork]

30. "Our" seismographic system certainly told somebody

if there was an explosion - nuclear or not - two days ago.

You didn't think they would tell us, did you?

[liberalhistorian]

31. Oh, but NK doesn't

have any oil, so * and the Boys don't care!

[Hard Attack]

35. US wonders if North Korea is preparing for nuclear test

***** GET THIS =====

US wonders if North Korea is preparing for nuclear test

WASHINGTON (AFP) Sep 12, 2004
The US intelligence community is in the grip of an internal debate on whether new data on North Korea should be interpreted as a sign the country is preparing for its first nuclear weapons test, US administration officials said late Saturday

story = http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040912022645.qcnli120.html

[Corgigal]

41. AH

That means yep it certain did happen. Since our Govt couldn't contain the information now they are getting us ready to tell us what we here at DU are already finding out.

I wonder what the next move will be and by whom?

[Hard Attack]

57. Exactly

You got the picture all right.

[Maple]

37. Is it from this report in the NY Times?

Atomic Activity in North Korea Raises Concerns
By DAVID E. SANGER and WILLIAM J. BROAD

Published: September 12, 2004

WASHINGTON, Sept. 11 - President Bush and his top advisers have received intelligence reports in recent days describing a confusing series of actions by North Korea that some experts believe could indicate the country is preparing to conduct its first test explosion of a nuclear weapon, according to senior officials with access to the intelligence.


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/12/international/asia/12nuke.html?ex=1252641600&en=eee560fa911b4dcf&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Hmm tinfoil moment

they testedt he bomb, and now they are telling us they may test it
before ahem, they tell us they tested it succesfully

Does it sound convuluted? Yep

Is Bush capable of this?

[coreystone]

47. If the explosion in Korea on Sept 9th was nuclear, then

the administration does a press release on Sept 11; would there be any reason that they "should" wonder about the credibility concerns many of have about everything else they do or say ??

[punpirate]

70. Different report, I think...

... but there is mention toward the bottom of the second page of the NYT article:

"South Korean intelligence officials who saw evidence of an intense fire at a suspected nuclear location alerted their American counterparts that a small nuclear test might have already occurred. American officials reviewed seismic sensors and other data and concluded it was a false alarm, though the fire has yet to be explained."

Right now, two days later, there would be some evidence of either an underground or above ground test, seismic in the case of either sort of test, slump crater for an underground test, or radiological evidence if above ground... and you can bet everyone's looking.

My guess is that it was an accident--particularly fuel storage or transport--the North Koreans haven't had much luck in that, lately.

[tuvor]

38. Okay, george. Put up or shut up. n/t

[Radius]

78. Response?

Should we authorize a first strike using nuclear weapons?
Killing 10's of millions of north koreans. Options are limited.

If it was nuclear it will be confirmed by fallout analysis. If not it is more of the same. Give us money, our communist system does not work.

Either way they are not going to start a nuclear war, they could hit japan or SK but but by the time they launched we would have a nuke for every man woman amd child in NK in the air. Lose, Lose for them.

[Ohio rules]

146. Brinksmanship isn't a knee jerk sport

LOL, pont a finger,flip the bird and hunker down isn't a good game plan.
They ( NK )have talks comming up in several weeks.
It is the position of Kim to chest beat before sitting at the table.

If they put a big hole in their own dirt...let them climb in and see if the experiment will grow more rice.

Guess they showed us and taught a good lesson.
Now what will Kerry's response be tomorrow when asked?

Afterall isn't Kim wanting to feel out what the next president's position will be on the glorious leader ?
;)

[mbperrin]

169. Send 'em a note saying congratulations on your recent test.

Now you, like us, can kill all sorts of people much more easily than before. But we are the only ones who have actually done it.

They're a sovereign country. They can have what they like. Or if not, surely we shouldn't be allowed to. We really are the only people in the world to drop atomic bombs on civilians, ever. Ever.

Maybe if we'd mind our own business, we wouldn't have to worry about others being so hostile to us. We do have a few things in this country that FIVE TRILLION dollars might have been handy for.

[Ohio rules]

190. Now that would piss them off !

They want our money as appeasement payments to start up again.

They should leave US alone.
Hell,
last I heard we are trying to pull our troops off and away from that peninsula....
..and this is his response for doing just that ? LOL

Don't kid yourself when his October Farm reports are not as glorious as in the glory days.

[Bluebear]

48. AP has it now

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040912/ap_on_re_as/nkorea_explosion_10

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Cool now it is spreading

how fast un ntil our vapid media raelized this is NEWS and to heck with the weekend?

takers, any takers on taht bet?

[TacticalPeek]

50. Happy Birthday, Wanda Jong

North Korea was founded Sept. 9, 1948. Leader Kim Jong Il uses the occasion to stage performances and other events to bolster loyalty among the impoverished North Korean population.


http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040911_1451.html

[Lizz612]

52. *puts on tin hat, firmly*

September Surprise anyone? Would the hints at nukes be enough of for this administration to spin, even if they're not behind it?

Its late and I'm parinoid.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. not paraniid enough

but if we continue to pull troops I am smelling a Korean reunification, the hard way...

[coreystone]

62. A very interesting notion! .........

Would I be incorrect in assuming that you are implying that this administration's has a policy to resolve the North/South Korean Conflict by deserting our commitments to South Korea???

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. theya re not that organized

but rummy certainly beleives we are wasting our time o'ver there since it is not a hot war.

Remember the law of uninteded consequences is at work here

And maybe PNACers do want to solve that problem so we can have the troops to fight other resource wars

[ewagner]

58. What pisses me off

...an explosion this big (note the Yahoo article said it left a crater big enough to be seen by satelite) HAD to be noticed by our intelligence agencies.........

Why haven't we been told before now?

[hatrack]

79. When Israel tested its nuclear weapons in 1978, not a word leaked for yrs.

Read "The Samson Option" for further information. The test, which went off deep in the Southern Ocean between South Africa and Antarctica, was considered the most tightly-held secret of the Carter Administration.

[chenGOD]

59. Haven't heard anything here in Seoul.

Got the TV on the 24 hour news network...nothing yet...

[fearnobush]

60. See if this Sept 9th satellite shows anything.

This one shows a stream of a contrail like cloud over N.Korea, but is not all that close to Chinese border.
<&MOSAIC_SCALE=20>

An other Sept 9th view.

<&MOSAIC_SCALE=20>

[Bernardo de La Paz]

139. Links broken. Server not found.

[Swamp Rat]

142. Won't even load for me.

It's a ".mil" website.

[Ohio rules]

158. Try again,works for me but

they show no detail of land mass.

[Ohio rules]

156. Those weather sats?

NOt even a typhoon could be shown in detail.
They too far out there

[diamond14]

61. when the nuclear power plant in Chernobyl blew up, it was initially

thought to be an atomic bomb explosion....turned out, Chernobyl was actually a CHEMICAL Reaction...but a huge amount of radioactive material from the reactor, was propelled skyward, propelled by oxygen and hydrogen gasses (much like the spaceships)....


the russian pilot who flew over the reactor to see what happened, was KILLED by radiation poisoning....so where the firemen who ran to the control room...killed by radiation poisoning...one physicist, who went up to look into the core of the reactor to see the condition, was radioactively poisoned and died....

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. yes but I have the sneaky suspicion that this is the real

dael.. not an accident, also the russians had to tell us quite fast as our forces went on alert... and if I remember teh Finish rad detectors went off the scale... hence they had to admit to it

[MaryBear]

64. From BBC - cause yet to be determined

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3648794.stm

Big blast reported in North Korea


A big explosion rocked a northern province of North Korea near the border with China last week, South Korea's Yonhap new agency is reporting.

The blast on Thursday was seen from a satellite, Yonhap quoted an unnamed source in Beijing as saying.

The cause has yet to be determined, the source said.

[barb162]

66. my attitude about this has always been let China, South Korea

and Japan handle N. Korea. China can just sit on 'em REALLY FAST. They don't want to get China pissed.

[Radius]

68. Message?

We have the ability to make ww2 era implosion devices.(nk)

The US has the ability to drop B-83 gravity bombs from stealth aircraft by the hundreds and follow up with Ohio class broadsides and MX missile ordinance. No notice, Game over. A few mt at most vs 3000mt.

We could incinerate everyone in north Korea in about 30 minutes.

NK is a beggar looking for a handout. Help us feed our big army, we've tried selling smack and scuds but a million man army is really hard to feed.
If they fuck up big enough the Chinese will take them out. Dear leader starts fucking with Chinese commerce, he may get fugu poisoning.

Hiroshima was 5 clicks plus in diameter. Our big boys make a 15 to 20 clicks cloud. To 130k feet.

[chenGOD]

87. Yeah as a resident of Seoul I'd like to thank you for your concern...

Cause you know that the minute North Korean radar detects anything like a missile or bomb coming into it's airspace, they're launching the 10,000 or so artillery pieces they have aimed towards South Korea.

[Radius]

98. Hopefully

if dear leader starts a war he will start with japan, for your sake.

If they fire a nuke at anyone it will be our people in SK or the Japanese. They really don't like the Japanese do they? Either way their arty will not be a problem as the B-83 1.2 megaton nuclear bomb dropped from an airplane with no radar signature would melt them and their operators. The NK's know they are targeted with enough nuclear ordinance to kill them all several times over. Any war on the peninsula will go nuclear, and NK will be left in ruins.

I think this is bullshit, and NK is looking for some more welfare since the communism plan seems to be going to the shitter.

[LivingInTheBubble]

219. You seem to take glee in imagining nuclear war.

Multiple times too.. time for ignore.

[Ohio rules]

206. Is it true S K is relocating their capitol ?

I heard that in the news several weeks ago. can't recall the name of the city but it was a more centrally located one.
Kim does have 10,000 guns aimed south.
But won't he have to retarget if troops and govt institutions move?

[chenGOD]

210. Yes they are planning on it.

The projected move won't occur until sometime like 2010 (I'm not exactly sure on the date, as I keep hearing/reading different stories).

Regardless, Seoul will still have a huge population as they plan to develop it further into the economic capital (the analogy is to Washington D.C. and New York City). And it doesn't take that long to retarget artillery pieces.

[Ohio rules]

211. retarget artillery pieces at civilians

Then what do you think of removing the US speed bump of 35,000 troops while SoKo 900,000 remain to face off against the 1.1 NK troops ?

Our presence on the DMZ is more a token symbolic role in the nuclear age of Kim .

On a side note,
I've read articles that Kim has lowered the standards of his army.
Seems the malnourishment has taken its toll on the manpower.
Truely,in stature,they are a shrinking force.
They won't take recruits that are under 4ft 3in... yet

Could that army march on its stomache
or will they force march living off the chaos of plunder replenishing?

Those are the questions Kims general staff must plan.
They know the outcome.

I wonder how they will deal with Kim when he must go.
Do they cut a deal with the Chinese and release a Jonestown massacre on the home front ?

Can they make it across the DMZ lacking force multipliers?
Well actually, the question;
how many will return to claim bragging rights in front of grandchildren?
yes
There are fanatics but all of them can be MAD.

[lazarus]

95. And their leader

is as insane as our leader is.

the point isn't that NK could bomb anybody. It's that NK's only export is weapons/military tech. Now they can throw nuclear into the mix.

Garsh, glad ol' Bush is making things safer for us. 4 years ago these two nations were on the verge of unification...

[daleo]

113. Do you think the world would let the U.S. go around incinerating countries

Testing a bomb is not a genocide offense. If the U.S. started incinerating countries whenever they felt like it, a general nuclear war would be very likely to follow. This is serious stuff.

Honestly Radius, sometimes you write like you would like this to happen.

[Bleacher Creature]

71. Not the best time to throw politics in the mix, but

this is ridiculous. George Bush is so incredibly dangerous for this nation and this planet that I'm at a loss for words.

We devote all of our attention to Iraq, an utterly meaningless nation that hasn't been a threat for years, and ignore everything else that's going on in the world. Now we are so overly committed there, that we can't even threaten force in NK. We've alienated most of the world -- how the hell are we going to handle this?!? And if you are anywhere near the ages of 18-27 . . .

[HopeIsNowHere]

80. I beg to differ

"we can't even threaten force in NK"

I am of the belief that we could turn NK into one big smoking crator just by cleaning out a few of our expired nukes and sending them their way.

[Bleacher Creature]

81. "Well that's reassuring"

[Radius]

84. Exactly

NK may repeat may have a ww2 era implosion or uranium gun weapon. Right now there are at least two ohio class subs ready to launch into nk with 144 250kt thermonuclear weapons, per. Nevermind the MX capability and the air force capability to kill their cities with no notice using gravity bombs and stealth jets.

Translation in a nuclear war NK is a parking lot, no one lives in for 2000 years if they so much as twitch a nuke towards SK or japan.

No shit, this in no joke. If they fuck around they will get a massive nuclear response.

Personally I think this is bullshit but I will hold my judgement. The sats can see a gamma bloom from orbit.

[chenGOD]

88. Yeah and nevermind the downwind radiation poisoning that SK residents will

suffer. I mean they're only simple yellow folk who should be eternally grateful for the US protection that the the US has altruistically provided.

[Radius]

92. ARTY

Is their problem. There are thousands of tubes on Seoul right now. If NK decided to go nuclear the fallout would be determined by the wind..

Who's to say they wouldn't nuke their "yellow" neighbors and our troops first.

I think this is bullshit and a NK scam to get more handout, but I may be wrong.

[chenGOD]

97. Artillery is the big problem...correct, as I said in an earlier post.

"Who's to say they wouldn't nuke their "yellow" neighbors and our troops first." And who's to say they would?
If North Korea was gonna start something, they would have done it back in the late 70's early 80's when the USSR and China were strong backers of the regime.
The handout they're looking for is a guarantee that Bush won't decide to "pre-emptively" attack them (although why they'd trust bush's word at this point is beyond me). Not such an unreasonable request.

[Radius]

106. They are looking for dollars,

build us a nuke plant, feed our army since our communist system fell on its ass.

They aren't going to do shit. I'll bet a beer there was no nuclear detonation.

Fuck north Korea they should get jack shit from any president. Clinton just about went to war with them. They are lying scum and have been since the armistice. Let them stew and starve for a few more years and they will fall apart. good riddance. No politics, just a hardy fuck you to NK, and the dear leader.

[chenGOD]

155. Now what if they were to look for dollars through trade and building

infrastructure? And what if I were to tell you that they have actively been pursuing developing their economic infrastructure through talks and action with South Korea. And what if i were to tell you that markets had been opened in Pyongyang that had been allowed by the government? Still eager to let them starve? That must be some of that compassion the democrats are famous for.

Clinton just about went to war with them. You know why he didn't? Cause then South Korean president Kim Young Sam told Clinton that if the US attacked, not one single South Korean soldier would be sent into battle. And if you think that it was the North that initially broke the 94 Agreed Framework, you have some serious reading to do.

[mbperrin]

174. Thank you for some actual facts.

They're sorely needed here.

[Ohio rules]

177. They want dollars through blackmail

What have they got to offer up in trade?
Scud missiles?

They turned the UN camerasaway and broke the seals off their reactors.

They had few cards up their sleeves as it was.

Maybe China will bow before Kim.
right.

[chenGOD]

185. What Korea has to offer in trade...

North Korea offers land for factories. Cheap labour. Natural resources. You don't have to believe me, check out these links:
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200405/07/200405070055002279900092309231.html (this is a somewhat right-leaning paper here in Seoul)

http://economicreport.co.kr/special/spe0309.htm a link about the re-connecting of North-South rail lines (3rd question).

AS to the '94 agreed framework, check out when the LWR reactors (which would have been much safer than the current gas-graphite reactors http://www.isis-online.org/publications/dprk/final_cox.html ) were supposed to have been completed: http://www.kedo.org/pdfs/AgreedFramework.pdf

In other words stop talking out of your ass and educate yourself.

[Ohio rules]

194. Off shore more jobs?

"North Korea offers land for factories. Cheap labour. Natural resources.

what natural resources? a cheap labor pool to defeat us stupid americans ?

ANd in return we give them $$$ to maintain that 5 million man army ..


no deal.

I'd rather pack up and ship jobs to China.

this arguement is going nowhere.

[chenGOD]

195. Err South Korea not the US....will be doing the trade.

Natural resources from the CIA factbook: coal, lead, tungsten, zinc, graphite, magnesite, iron ore, copper, gold, pyrites, salt, fluorspar, hydropower


The army is about 1 million, not 5 million. The US gives more money to Israel and Afghanistan than it does to North Korea.

The argument is going nowhere because you have accepted everything you have been told about the evil scary North and not educated yourself about the realities of the actual situation.

[Ohio rules]

200. how about a link

I don't trust your CIA fact book
first
You said NK provided us a cheap labor pool.
now
you say SK will send their jobs north instead of US job loss ?



Who will lose jobs ?

I know where our factory jobs are going my friend.

Away from the rust belt over into the pacific rim.

[chenGOD]

204. Links inside about natural resources, jobs

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/kn.html#Geo (natural resources, scroll down a little bit)

I should have been clearer, I live in South Korea, so when i said us, I meant South Korea.
http://www.iht.com/articles/508944.html (factories to be constructed and they are being constructed)

http://www.iht.com/articles/538030.html (South Korean bank chosen to operate inside Kaesong)

US jobs ain't going to North Korea for a while, not with the economic embargo the US has on North Korea.

[Radius]

227. NK

Is a failed state. They are led by a nutty dictator. I didn't say we should invade, nuke, or fart at NK. But isolated and left to stew in their own juices they will implode. Compassion has nothing to do with NK foreign policy.

I do not think we should support them in any way financially, economically, just postponing the inevitable failure. They use food aid to feed their army first and civilians second. If they have really detonated a nuke which I doubt no one will touch them. China will cut them off and they will collapse.

I guess NK's sunshine plan includes the sunshine in a bottle?

If clinton had attacked the south koreans would probably take a different position when NK shelled Seoul. My point was that this has been a hot place for a long time, to long.

NK, bush or not, are not nice. They were have been a problem before we (assuming your were born post 54)were born. You have fallen for my enemy's enemy is my friend fallacy.

Got a link to any of that, SK ultimatum to clinton?

[daleo]

115. The fallout will be determined by the wind

That's a pretty blase attitude. Oh, well if the wind blows the wrong way, that's life - it's not our fault.

Or maybe the U.S. military will start up its giant wind machines and make sure the fallout heads to Russia or China. After all, they wouldn't mind.

[chenGOD]

132. And I can assure you that the wind generally blows from China down towards

the Korean peninsula. As evidenced almost yearly in the spring time when the giant dust storm from China makes its way down through the peninsula and even across the Pacific to the west coast of the US.
Admittedly radiation particles might be heavy enough to settle quickly probably into the sea and therefore wouldn't travel all the way to the west coast of America. Just irradiate the sea between Korea and Japan affecting a massive food source for both peoples.

Seems like Radius would willfully ignore these consequences for the reward of turning North Korea into a praking lot.

[Radius]

228. The Evil us...

Is not the one who appears to have detonated a nuclear weapon.
The evil us will not start a nuclear war with the dear nutty leader.
We will finish one if he starts it. Fallout will not be on the top of the list of concerns if NK has just nuked seuol or Tokyo.

China would be none to pleased with a nuclear north korea. Ever considered the effect of a nuclear war between the norcoms and the chicoms.

Personally I doubt they set off a nuke, if so, who cares. We've got hundreds pointing at them. Sitting in the pacific, listening for an order and running missile drills.

Now the South Koreans may figure out the sunshine plan was feeding the crocodile if it was a nuke and take a more realistic approach to the north.

If it was a nuke you think the security councli will sit by and do nothing?

[FlemingsGhost]

85. What a surprise.

Not.

Who would Jesus bomb, tough guy?

[Radius]

89. Jesus

or not. we've got 18 ohio class subs and I'm sure two would be plenty to ruduce NK to ruins. 288 250kt thermonuclear warheads tend to fuck up your day.

Personally I think this is bullshit and NK is a beggar. Same as they were under the prior administration. A fucking bum looking for a handout.

Either way they are no USSR and have NO chance in any type of open war. If they go nuclear they will be wiped out.

[FlemingsGhost]

93. More neophytical bravado.

So much anger. So much fear ...

[Radius]

101. It is all bullshit..

I'm prettty sure this is bullshit. The NK's are not a nuclear threat. If they start a nuclear war they will all die.

Simple math. NK a few mts at most. US 3000 mts plus.

I'm unmoved. I get angry when I spill a full beer..

neo what, is that a new word? snazzy!

[lazarus]

104. This is surprisingly easy to figure out

They're not interested in a war. They're interested in selling this technology to the highest bidder.

And the Saudis have been giving a lot of money to our ol' buddy bin Laden.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FlemingsGhost]

Yes, let's kill all North Koreans because of their leadership

Not a policy I'm going to promote, given the state of our own leadership.


Either your brain or your dick is far smaller than average.

[Radius]

229. Never suggested it

But you can eat the peanuts out of my shit you little pissant bastard.

[lazarus]

196. So what?

Is that going to help when bin Laden sets off a nuke in New York harbor? A nuke he bought from Kim?

And you seem to have forgotten that the North Koreans live under a dictatorship. They don't have much choice in the matter.

[Radius]

230. MAD

If a nation state gives or sells a nuclear weapon to a terrorist group they should be held accountable for its use. You really think we should make a distinction?

If we gave a nuke to Chechen terrorists and they vaporize Moscow you think Russia would just not worry about it.

So yes if a NK nuke goes off in NYC, dictator or not, they are going to get a nuclear response, a very large one.

IMHO this is all bullshit. We would have confirmed an atmospheric test in minutes and the politicians would have released it on 9/11 for maximum political effect.

[foo_bar]

110. "they" are actually one Most Revered leader guy

simple math: he's a solipsist.

[Snazzy]

213. yo!

You rang?

You are sadly neglecting morality in calculating your balance of power.

Not to mention ambient craziness, which is to what any and all potential nuclear conflicts owe their allegiances. Who is more crazy.

Can the US, the modern super superpower nuke anybody? Can the US actually do it in response to a nuke? A nuke in a far away country as a response to a madman? Can we incinerate millions upon millions in swift stroke?

What would people think about the US then? How would they react?

Bush (*--I mean Whistleass) might jump at it, but most of the people with a few degrees who have spent far too much brainpower on thinking about just such an occurrence would totally disagree. (And many of those people work in the DoD/CIA/State/etc. paid to think about this over the last 50 years or so).

They certainly pause for the inhumanity of the response, and the dire global consequences on so many fronts. Not to mention the outright and real opportunity that an exchange would lead to a snowballing, maybe unintended, holocaust.

Balance of power and an asymmetric nuclear threat is a lot more complicated than who has more nukes on an intellectual level, if you can get there. But the famous paradox is that such a war is never strategic, it is only crazy. As the vast majority or reasoned moral people have concluded, they are weapons that cannot be used.

That means all circumstances. Response included. What does that mean to a crazy man? What does that mean to the prisoner in his dilemma? How about our pals in S. Korea, we just toss them away in the mix.

Nice to add up just how a super a super pwer we are. Our dick is bigger! Let's not think with it.

[Comadreja]

163. NK's neighbors

Mostly CHINA, might be less than thrilled at dozens of thermonuclear blasts throwing tons of radioactive dust in the air right on their property line. They already showed they were willing to face down "Capt. Courage" Bush over the spyplane event.

[Kool Kitty]

131. Couldn't you think of a better way to deal with this-

your solution would truly start WW3.

[agincourt]

72. Well if it's a nuke test,

Thank God GW Bush is president now!!! There, I feel safe, now with my red, white and blue binkey.

[Connie_Corleone]

74. And as we all know,

Iraq was the bigger threat./sarcasm

:eyes:

[dennis4868]

82. Sadaam attacked....

NK?

[BeHereNow]

90. Oh Nooooo, the Jindos....

If so much as ONE hair was harmed on a single
Jindo- someone is going to have to answer to ME.
BHN

[Doosh]

91. they're testing nukes, no doubt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

160. There are none so cocksure as the ignorant and ill-informed.

Nice try. Go back to sleep, please, Doosh.

[Yuna]

94. I call BS

No way this happened on the 9th and no one has heard about it until today. Detonating a nuke isn't exactly a stealth operation.

Also - *IN* North Korea? WTF would they nuke themselves for?

[abrock]

99. Where the hell else are they going to test it? South Korea? Russia?

[Yuna]

107. <cough>

So let me understand your logic...

1. You have a nuke.

2. You don't want to test it on another nation.

3. Therefore you just say "what the hell, we'll test it on ourselves".

Riiiiggght. Kind of like deciding to test your car air bag by driving in to a brick wall at 100MPH.

[daleo]

116. The U.S. tested plenty of weapons in Nevada

I seem to recall reading that you could see the flash from Las Vegas.

[Yuna]

127. True

But how many vast open spaces does NK have?

Detonating a nuke in the middle of no where is far different than detonating one near civilization.

[Walt Starr]

138. You don't know much about Korea, do you?

Get a map. Look at the region in question.

[Yuna]

145. <sigh>

You don't know much about nukes, do you? Let's take a look. From Gene B. Williams “Nuclear War, Nuclear Winter” - Page 24 (yes, I've done my home work)

"The temperature of a nuclear explosion reaches into the millions of degrees. "Little Boy," exploded 1,000 feet (300 meters) above Hiroshima, caused the surface temperature to jump to well over 5,000 degrees almost instantly. Citizens more than two miles (3 kilometers) from the blast were burned.

The force of the explosion annihilated everything within more than a mile of the center. Photographs were taken showing where "shadows" had been burned into concrete walls; the humans who were the sources of the shadows had been completely vaporized.

It has been estimated that nearly 60 percent of the population of Hiroshima died either instantly or within a few weeks. Many more died later. Even today, more than forty years after explosion, the effects are still showing up. The children of the survivors continue to carry the "radioactive plague."

Yet "Little Boy" was very small compared to the warheads presently available."

That doesn't even detail the FAR reaching effects of the aftermath. People from many, many miles outside of the initial blast radius die either in the coming days or weeks, with those even further out dieing within months/years. Funny we haven't heard about any ill effects on people consistent with a nuke isn't it?

[Walt Starr]

Yep, could easily contain a Hiroshima sized ground explosion

in that province of North Korea with minimal immediate damage to the citizenry.

Again, you don;t know much about Korea, do you?

[Yuna]

175. We are talking nukes

not atom bombs. You are aware these are two different weapons, correct? One being massively more powerful. Or did NK decide mid 20th century level tech would be cute?

Also - care to explain how no nation detected seismographic readings as a result. You are aware they can be detected hundreds and hundreds of miles away, right? Or did everyone with a seismograph in south korea and surrounding nations sleep that one for 48 hours?

What about fall out - which can again be detected hundreds of miles away. Ooops guess everyone slept that one too.

Sorry - it doesn't add up. The evidence would have been highly visible immediately in south korea and surrounding nations, both to public/private and government skilled individuals. They would have brought this to their press ASAP.

[Walt Starr]

180. Man, do I have to give you a lesson in unconventional weaponry?

Give me a fucking break. You obviously have no clue whatsoever about what you are talking.

"Nukes" can refer to one of several devices. For any nation in the development phases, such as Pakistan, India, Israel, North Korea, and Iran, "Nuke" would refer to standard fission based devices.

Fusion based devices are extermely more complicated and require a much higher degree of precise engineering to accomplish.

So short answer, North Korea would have a Hiroshima style device AT BEST. This is what Pakistan and India have as well. Israel *MAY* have standard fusion based devices, but that is highly unlikely and they would only have them *IF* the United States supplied them.

Seisomography can be fooled in such a case. The train explosion of April, for example, would have also registered on seismic devices. All seismology can say is an event occurred. It cannot tell you the nature of the event in terms of whether it was a conventional explosion of a nuclear explosion.

When a fertilizer plant explodes, for example, it will do so with the force of a Hiroshima style device. All of the destructive capabilites and seismic readings with none of the nuclear fallout. Heat effects can be strikingly similar in both a conventional explosive and nuclear explosive event.

There is ONE WAY to verify if this was a nuclear event or not and standard civilians and media agencies do not have that sort of capability. Only a govenrment can confirm or deny whether or not this was a nucear event.

[Swamp Rat]

203. No shit. A grain elevator a few miles out of New Orleans blew up -

spontaneous combustion - and broke windows in homes in the city. This was just GRAIN, but the explosion rumbled my house like an earthquake.

[daleo]

149. They probably have some pretty isolated areas

After all, it is a mountainous country. Total area is about 120,000 square km, which isn't huge but it isn't tiny. That would be a square of about 350 km, although the actual dimensions are quite different. Anyway, if they are going to test a nuclear weapon, they would pretty well have to do it in their own country, as they don't have anywhere else to go. Perhaps it was an underground test that escaped containment very badly.

As many defenders of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings will attest, Japan managed to survive the nuclear bombings there. Japan is about 378000 square kilometers. Nevada is about 305000 square kilometers.

[Yuna]

154. Not isolated enough

You don't seem to fully comprehend the power of a nuke... There would be far reaching effects impacting peoples health immediately afterwards. This could also be detected easily by surrounding nations. The fact remains there have been no reports of this. If the story was real there would be.

[Walt Starr]

171. You don't seem to fully comprehend the power of a nuke either

nor do you conprehend North Korean politics.

[Kool Kitty]

136. Uh, Yuna-

did you ever hear about the above-ground nuclear testing that was done right here in the US, at the test sites in Nevada and New Mexico?

Oh, and the tests done in those vast open spaces did happen to rain fallout on the people of both those states and Utah (and lots of other parts of the country, depending on which way the wind blew).

[Yuna]

148. No kidding

"did happen to rain fallout on the people"

But the fact remains this has not been reported by any surrounding nations that should have detected it. This greatly calls BS to the story.

[Kool Kitty]

159. I can imagine lots of reasons why

the media here is not picking up this story. Like, if NK did indeed test a nuclear weapon, well it just might show that our little leader might have had his bleary eye on the wrong ball. Being that we went into Iraq to disarm it and no WMD have been found, and NK seems to have the real thing.

[Yuna]

166. Do you believe the world revolves around the US?

Various surrounding nations would have detected this. Both independent individuals and governments. The effects of a nuke detonanation are highly detectable for a vast distance depending on what you are looking for. Seismographic detection would be possible literally hundreds of miles away.

Or let me guess - no one in south korea has a seismograph, saw the readings and said "holy shit". Or they just decided to ignore it.

South korea actually has a free press. It would have been reported within an hour - not over two bloody days later.

[Kool Kitty]

183. Oh, for heaven's sake-

did I say that? Give me a little credit. I just think that we don't get to hear a lot of important events. Weren't you the one that said no credible sources have reported on this? So, am I to assume from that question that you think only the American media is credible? It cuts both ways.

[vogonjiltz]

144. Its not like they have

the best interests of their people on their mind. Shoot, they probaly hope that they killed off some of their population so that wouldn't have to feed them anymore.

[chenGOD]

164. that's pretty rich from someone who's country has the largest prison

population on the planet both in total numbers and per capita.

[Minstrel Boy]

100. And yet, it happened.

Multiple, credible sources. Mushroom cloud and crater visible. Where's the BS? It may not have been a nuke, but there's been one helluva blast.

You're wrong to think "no one had heard about it until today." It's just us average folks who've been kept out of the loop.

[Yuna]

108. I want to see images

rather than lines of text from mostly sources I have never heard of.

If this is real and we are hearing about it then I would expect CNN et al to go to breaking news, yet they haven't.

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. Ok honestly you think you can trust CNN

NEWS DOES NOT HAPPEN IN THE WEEKEND screamed the US Media.

Also you are calling Reuters, AP and BBC ahem, unknown sources?

Something happened, whether on purpose or accidental is another matter

[Yuna]

125. How about you read those sources?

All the CREDIBLE sources you mention (for example, the BBC) state "A big explosion rocked a northern province of North Korea near the border with China last week, South Korea's Yonhap new agency is reporting. "

A "big explosion" does NOT equal a nuke.

Care to find me a credible source calling it a nuke rather than a big explosion? Nice spin though - worthy of CNN/FAUX.

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. Yahoo has now a story on Reuters that is now using the

qualifier a probable nuclear explosion

Now I don't know about you, but a 4-5 kilometer mushroom cloud IS CONSISTENT with a nuke going off.

But don't worry it is Saturday, we will continue to follow the wires, as the US Media is asleep at the switch... so far

[Pachamama]

215. Welcome to the DU Newbie!

Guess you still are one of the naive that thinks the MEDIA actually reports all the news?

Stick around...you'll learn real fast that the DU folks around the world actually find the real "breaking news" faster than it is often reported (or not) than the folks at CNN, MSNBC, FOX and others....

I give it about 24-48 hours and it will finally be all over the news...not at all (or not much attention) if the Bush administration has their way....unless ofcourse the Bu$h/FUCheney administration has other plans for how they want to "respond".....

Welcome to the DU! :hi:

[steely]

96. Here's a link to some capabilities we have, so we should know

whether it happened or not.

http://www.fas.org/spp/military/program/nssrm/initiatives/usnds.htm

And a new DSP was recently launched - March? I wonder where it's flying over?

[Corgigal]

103. another scary thought

Is the Bush is running around on the Bush or Bust tour and again Cheney is missing. The guy with the bad heart is monitoring the situation. He did such a great job on the last national crisis.

[AndyTiedye]

126. Don't Worry About Cheney's Heart - That's a Cover Story

The only way Cheney could get a heart attack
is if he fell on a wooden stake.

[Child_Of_Isis]

133. Hell, Cheney may not be monitoring

but taking matters into his own hands. What could shrub do if Cheney did decide to nuke someone? Slap him?

[morgan2]

105. we dropped a MOAB on NK's nuclear plants

or something.

The National Earthquake Information Center said it found no seismic activity as a result of the explosion, as some in the military had indicated might occur. A 10,000-foot cloud had been expected and local residents had been warned of possible loud noise.

thats about the MOAB test.. 10k feet, thats about 2 miles...

[Radius]

111. Why not a tac-nuke?More bang for the buck?Cant drop moab from stealth(nt)

[Ohio rules]

112. How close is Putins

Russia to this "test site" ?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

152. Use an atlas. They are available online.

[daleo]

153. Russia shares a bit of the North Korean border

It is probably a long way from the explosion site, though.

border countries: China 1,416 km, South Korea 238 km, Russia 19 km

[Ohio rules]

184. I didn't exactly mean geographically as much as

..how close is Putins regime monitoring this situation.( nothing in Pravda either. Hey speaking of Pravda, they do have some fun X-files type articles all the time.)


sorry,my bad.
Seems that current Putin quotes sound like they are itching for a fight.
Not that they are competant enough to fight one along their southern border
but
will he bow out of this far east issue as that little "tif" has surfaced in his publics eye ?

[Renew Deal]

207. They are itching for a fight with the Chechens

I really doubt they want to take on NK. What would they do with them?

[monobrau]

122. I don't think we could get one in

Because of the way the MOAB is delivered with a modified C-130, I'd be surprised if we could get that lumbering behomoth very far into Korean air space before it was shot down. I'm pretty sure a tactical strike would be carried out by a B-2 or some other stealth craft. I wouldn't be surprised if we hit them with a bunker buster nuke.

[Child_Of_Isis]

130. What is a MOAB? n/t

[steely]

135. "mother of all bombs" - biggest non-nuke

[Walt Starr]

Massive Ordinance Air Blast

21,700 pound conventional weapon:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/moab.htm

[Child_Of_Isis]

157. Well that would explain it.

We have been invading (or testing) their air space as of late haven't we?

[Walt Starr]

167. The MOAB requires a cargo aircraft

The ordinance is parachuted in. supersonic speed cannot deliver the ordinance.

A C--135 would never make it that faar into NK airspace.

[Sufi Marmot]

117. NYT: N. Korea Blast Unlikely to Have Been Atomic - S.K. Minister

The NYT just posted a saying that South Korea doesn't think the blast was nuclear. Nothing about why or how they came to that conclusion, though... :shrug: Hopefully we'll know more by tomorrow...

-SM

Edited for subject coherence

[daleo]

120. I wouldn't trust anything the media says for a while

It took years to find out that South Africa/Israel tested a weapon over the Indian Ocean in the late 1970's. We heard that it was a meteor, etc. I don't know if the mainstream media has made this public yet.

[A_Possum]

137. 70's is irrelevant

I got my masters in geology in the early 70's and one of my profs was directly engaged in the development of seismic monitoring for the test ban treaty.

Things have changed. Some articles from the past couple of years:

"One of the biggest challenges to monitoring the CTBT is the possibility that testing could be successfully hidden by conducting nuclear explosions in an evasive manner. The concern is partly based on U.S. and Russian experiments which have demonstrated that seismic signals can be muffled, or decoupled, for a nuclear explosion detonated in a large underground cavity. The decoupling scenario, however, as well as other evasion scenarios, demand extraordinary technical expertise and the likelihood of detection is high. AGU and SSA believe that such technical scenarios are credible only for nations with extensive practical testing experience and only for yields of at most a few kilotons. Furthermore, no nation could rely upon successfully concealing a program of nuclear testing, even at low yields."

American Geophysical Union

Nuclear weapons experts serving on the NAS panel created and analyzed possible scenarios for clandestine testing. The most difficult situations for monitoring explosions, they found, would come from countries attempting to test weapons in mining regions (where daily blasts occur) and in underground cavities. “It’s well known that such an underground cavity can reduce by a quite large factor the size of the seismic signals,” Richards says. However, the panel concluded that IMS would be able to detect signals in both the mining and cavity scenarios down to low yields.

Ironically, creating small explosions requires good nuclear capability. Therefore the only countries with the ability to conceal small-yield nuclear tests would be highly experienced nuclear-weapon states, such as the United States, Russia, the United Kingdom and France. Yet, for these nuclear-advanced countries, the panel concluded, constrained nuclear testing would provide little value in terms of adding to their nuclear capabilities.

Distinguishing a natural seismic signal from a mine blast or a nuclear explosion is fairly easy if the signal is large enough (Geotimes, August 2000). The signals vary in their frequency content. With smaller signals, frequency analysis is increasingly difficult. Mine blasting can result in seismic events smaller than magnitude 4.0 that superficially appear similar to nuclear explosions. Other, larger signals sometimes also produce initially confusing signals. The NAS report states that IMS can effectively identify trickier signals by looking at a combination of signals, such as an infrasound signal coupled with a seismic one.

Geotimes

If there was a nuclear blast in NK, we know about it.

[daleo]

162. I am not saying it couldn't be determined, technically

My degree (just a B.Sc.) is in physics, and I studied a lot of geophysics so I have some familiarity with seismology as well. The point is the media would bury and obfuscate for a long time if the government wanted them too.

Look at all the nonsense about IBM Selectric typefaces that we have heard about the last few days. The corporate media could easily confuse the issues so that the average layman wouldn't know what to believe.

This was supposed to be above ground (as was the Indian Ocean test of 78), so the double flash would be the most telling indicator. I imagine there are all kinds of spy satellites over North Korea.

On edit: A reference to the Indian Ocean event in question:
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Safrica/Vela.html

[unslinkychild1]

119. welllllllllllll

I saw some whispy clouds in NK, but my geography ain't so great, so I thought the bright spots off the east coast of JAPAN were the problem. No worries now, mates. NK, north provice, no prob.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

150. Use an atlas or an online atlas. This is the age of the internet.

Ignorance of basics is no excuse when it is at one's fingertips these days.

[Protected]

121. No response from Washington yet

http://english.yna.co.kr/Engnews/20040912/310000000020040912141806E5.html

[umtalal]

129. HOLLY SHIT! NORTH KOREA IS THE PROBLEM NOT IRAQ

[maine_raptor]

140. Has anybody got any links to seismic data site?

If it is a Nuke, there'll be a distinct set of seismic waves. These should have been picked up by many of the stations around the world.

This is going to effect the election BIG TIME, if it's true.

[BluePatriot]

165. i dunno if this is relevant...

or even the right area, but these are reports from southeast asia and all of the data from the 9th is missing...

http://www.bmg.go.id:8080/newgempa.jsp

view this as you will :wtf:

[BluePatriot]

178. Here, you can try this too

http://aslwww.cr.usgs.gov/Seismic_Data/heli2.shtml

[maine_raptor]

191. Thanks, but what I mean

is that someone should find a geologist or seismologist and ask them if there are impulse markings on the graphs for Sept 9 that indicate a nuclear explosion.

My understanding, limited as it is, is that the P and S waves generated, and picked up by seismographs is quite distinctive.

Maybe someone at a University somewhere?

These has got to be someone with a connection like that at DU.

[Renew Deal]

201. I tried this

but there's nothing. I don't know if it's been scrubbed.

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/recenteqsww/Maps/region/Asia.html

[Renew Deal]

202. Reuters: Nothing felt

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=581644§ion=news

[Windy]

143. Let the propaganda begin!!

The last thing Bush wants right now is for the NKs to test a nuke! Who is the imminent threat? Who has WMDs?

so looky look at what CNN has already reported from a US Government source!

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/09/11/nkorea.blast/index.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. And fox is running with that story as well

makes you wonder. doesn't it?" I mean the train story has yet to be ahem, clarified

[Child_Of_Isis]

161. Oh how lame!

A forest fire??

[dethl]

168. Right.....

Because everyone knows that a forest fire gives off a 2.0-2.5km mushroom cloud.

[Child_Of_Isis]

179. The whole damn world will know about this,

but our populace will be convinced that it is a forest fire. How freaking embarrassing.

[Renew Deal]

205. That has to be a joke.

A "huge explosion" could be a forest fire? Horseshit!!!

[Walt Starr]

208. That's the gosh honest Red's Truth

Now as far as the Blue Truth goes, we're waiting for radiological data to interpret whether this "Red" forest fire was indeed a nuclear test.

[Pachamama]

217. Yeah, everytime we have fires here in CA, I'm always noticing the familiar

...shape of that ever-present "Mushroom Cloud"...

Yeah, right :eyes:

[Aidoneus]

147. if this is true, the DPRK has never been in a safer position

However much in the role of "The Real Threat" they may be, if this is a nuclear blast then it means they can defend themselves:--that crosses them off the short-list of the Marines' vacation itinerary.

Unless it was an accident, then "um, ...fuck" about covers it. Or if it's not true, then it's just back to the ambigious status.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

170. North Korea's Answer to Fox News

http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm

[nadinbrzezinski]

173. WOW, they need to work on their graphics though

but not that different

[mahatmakanejeeves]

189. all citizens rejoice in unison

Here are graphics worthy of the DPRK. Smite the revisionist hooligans!

http://www.korea-dpr.com/

[chenGOD]

188. This is the official DPRK website

http://www.korea-dpr.com/


Interesting that I can view that site from South Korea but can't view any sites from South Korea that might contain Korean girls naked.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

193. simultaneous post

thanks

[Cascadian]

181. What is Shrub going to do about this?

Ah....probably nothing. No oil in North Korea.

:eyes:


John

[Junkdrawer]

222. August 19, 2004 : Kerry challenges Bush troop plan

CINCINNATI, Ohio (CNN) -- Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry on Wednesday blasted President Bush's plan to withdraw 70,000 U.S. troops from Asia and Europe, saying it isn't the right time for such a move.

Speaking to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the same group to which Bush announced his plan Monday, Kerry said the president's plan is vague and would take too long to achieve.

He also said some aspects of it could be dangerous.

"For example, why are we withdrawing unilaterally 12,000 troops from the Korean peninsula at the very time that we are negotiating with North Korea, a country that really has nuclear weapons?" the decorated Vietnam veteran asked at the VFW's 105th annual meeting.

"As Sen. John McCain said, 'I'm particularly concerned about moving troops out of South Korea when North Korea has probably never been more dangerous at any time since the end of the Korean War,' " Kerry quoted the Republican senator as saying.

.....

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/18/kerry.troops/

[Protected]

187. South Korea downplaying possibility of nuke

http://www.yonhapnews.net/Engnews/20040912/310000000020040912152235E7.html

[TheWraith]

197. Yanggang province...

...is believed to be the seat of North Korea's largest ballistic missile base, as well as their uranium reprocessing program. FYI.

[Snazzy]

216. WaPo: Preventing a Nuclear 9/11 (and CNN special too)

How come both these corruptable pices of mass media are on this story today?

How come neither seem to be covering the crack down arrests on members of Pakistani Khan's nuke network in, at least South Africa and Germany?

Something is up.



Preventing a Nuclear 9/11

By Matthew Bunn and Anthony Wier
Sunday, September 12, 2004; Page B07

This month's hostage tragedy in Russia is a stark reminder of the potent terrorist threat that country still faces -- a threat that could result in a nuclear Sept. 11 if terrorists manage to gain access to Russia's nuclear stockpiles.

Unfortunately, the recent claim by Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov that inadequately secured nuclear stockpiles in Russia are only a "myth" is far from the truth. There has been a decade of improvements in Russia, but the work remains dangerously incomplete and the threat to nuclear facilities is terrifyingly high. While many of the best-known thefts of nuclear material occurred a decade ago, it was only last year that the chief of Russia's nuclear agency testified that nuclear security was underfunded by hundreds of millions of dollars. At nearly every site U.S. experts visit, they reach quick agreement with Russian experts on the need for substantial security upgrades. Russia's decision to send additional troops to guard nuclear facilities in the wake of the most recent terrorist attacks belies the notion that these facilities were adequately secured before. Moreover, that heightened troop presence is not likely to last and will do little to reduce the danger of theft by insiders.

Meanwhile, terrorists are zeroing in on these nuclear stockpiles. Top Russian officials have confirmed at least two cases in 2001 of terrorists carrying out reconnaissance at Russian nuclear warhead storage sites. The 41 heavily armed, suicidal terrorists who seized hundreds of hostages at a Moscow theater in 2002 reportedly considered seizing the Kurchatov Institute instead -- a site with enough highly enriched uranium (HEU) for dozens of nuclear weapons. In 2003 proceedings in a Russian criminal case revealed that a Russian businessman had been offering $750,000 for stolen weapon-grade plutonium for sale to a foreign client. Al Qaeda has been actively seeking nuclear material for a bomb and has strong connections to Chechen terrorist groups.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13014-2004Sep10.html

[whitehouserefugee_SF]

218. Nukes Not Likely

Kim jong il, if he does posess nukes (it's been said that north korea has the capabilities to make up to five nuclear warheads) could ill afford to waste even one of his nuclear bargaining chips on anything as unpredictable and frivolous as an above ground test. There is technology that can determine whether or not the bombs posessed are still in working condition, that's why the US and Russia no longer need to test fire these weapons (unless you count the coming nuclear bunker-busters). Anyway, I have suspicions that the blast was probably carried out with large amounts of conventional explosives in an attempt A: demonstrate the republic's nuclear capabilities to indoctrinate the north korean people. and B: To attract potential purchasers of nuclear arms (terrorists) and even if there is no evidence of radiation in the coming days it will still establish concern nationwide. Say no radiation is found, the symbolism of the act sends a message to the world that kim jong il is quite willing to use and test nuclear missiles whether he has them or not.

Pearson

[Dover]

221. Doesn't it seem a bit odd that this hasn't shown up in Asian news sources?

I've looked at six different news sources in that regent, and not a peep about this. What gives?

Here, check for yourself: http://www.thebigproject.co.uk/news/

[allemand]

223. Probably has to do with news cycles

Chosun Ilbo already has a report:
http://english.chosun.com/

Do you read Korean, Japanese or Chinese? Perhaps they have reports in these languages already.

[chenGOD]

226. I've seen reports about it on Korean TV...n/t

[allemand]

224. They would blow up their own railway line in a nuclear test?

Yeah... :eyes:



"The picture shows the near areas North Korea's Youngjo-ri, Ryanggang Province which was taken by the satellite of the U. S. firm DigitalGlobe in February 2003. The area in the circle is Youngjo-ri and the squared area is 10km to the southwest, where the explosion may have taken place. The dotted line is the railroads of Youngjo-ri and thick line is the boundary line of Ryanggang Province and Jagang Province."
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200409/200409120031.html

[DeepModem Mom]

225. CNN International reporting huge cloud of something --

saying is in a remote area, do not yet know what it is.

[Moderator]

231. Locking for length

Please consider this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x820942

Thread #2 and continue there.