North Korea cloud 'not nuke blast'

[Emillereid]

Sunday, September 12, 2004 Posted: 1:05 AM EDT (0505 GMT)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/09/12/nkorea.blast/

SEOUL, South Korea (CNN) -- A large cloud that appeared over North Korea in satellite images several days ago was not the result of a nuclear explosion, according to a U.S. official.

South Korea's Yonhap news agency is reporting a huge explosion shook North Korea's northernmost province on Thursday producing a mushroom cloud over two miles (4 km) wide.

The blast coincided with the anniversary of North Korea's founding on Sepember 9 when various military activities are staged.

The U.S. official said the cloud could be the result of a forest fire....

Emergency over!? Nothing to see here, move along.

[Ediacara]

1. FOREST FIRE!?

The story on the BBC says you can see the crater from fucking satelite photos!!

[Erika]

7. Bush and his administration has 0 credibility.

Watching worldwires for the truth.

[struggle4progress]

73. What! You don't believe Ranger Rice?

<snip> "We don't think, at this point, it was a nuclear event, but we're looking at it and will get further analysis," said Condoleezza Rice, the president's national security adviser. "There are all kinds of reports and all kinds of assessments that are going on. Maybe it was a fire -- some kind of forest fire." <snip>

http://icberkshire.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/nationalnews/tm_objectid=14634723&method=full&siteid=50102&headline=n-korean-blast-was-not-nuclear---us-name_page.html

[Eloriel]

10. LOL -- I saw the subject line and my comment was going to be:

So, did they come up with something a little more credible than a "forest fire"?

Apparently not yet. Maybe tomorrow.

[jeff30997]

15. More credible ? Mmmm,how about...

A flying saucer ? :)

[HEyHEY]

23. really big seagull crap

[Swamp Rat]

31. Could have been a flying saucer.

[Carla in Ca]

19. it is a conspiracy

we want * to have to mispronounce nuclear. Time for another *ism!

[Ohio rules]

20. Or maybe it was a -->comet ? lol

[vajraroshana]

66. whatever exploded created the forest fire

And the forest fire created the smoke that appeared as a mushroom shaped cloud. At least that's what I gather from this news story. In other words there's no denial of an explosion anywhere in the story. The story just mentions that the cloud was the result of the forest fire.

[Ediacara]

74. Hmmm maybe

My impression was that they were trying to explain it away as JUST a forest fire. A forest fire that created a mushroom cloud and a crater.....

[yardwork]

87. I don't think that's possible

My understanding is that explosions create mushroom clouds because of the rapidly expanding air. A forest fire would create a huge amount of smoke, but not in the shape of a mushroom.

If witnesses saw a mushroom cloud, there must have been an explosion before the fire, I think.

[Cronus Protagonist]

2. hahahaa I just realized something

You just can't trust ANY news sources any more. They have ALL lost our confidence entirely. The only people who still believe the news are people who watch FOX, and we all know they're literally deluded.

In Memorium
http://brainscream.com/MP3/wtc-Roger_Waters_and_Waking_Born-World_Trade_Center_Tribute.mpg

[alittlelark]

3. I trust no one. But I do trust DU.

eclectic, brazen....correct

[truthisfreedom]

4. and the crater is... from... a meteorite! no, i mean, it's from that

satellite that Isreal was trying to launch. no, it's that thing that was gathering particles from the sun. well, you know what i mean. it's just an ordinary forest fire crater.

[Eloriel]

11. Swamp gas, perhaps? n/t

[Emillereid]

5. Can a forest fire cause an explosion or a crater the size that's

been reported?

[Cronus Protagonist]

6. It's a weather balloon

fer sure.

In Memorium
http://brainscream.com/MP3/wtc-Roger_Waters_and_Waking_Born-World_Trade_Center_Tribute.mpg

[daleo]

8. I have driven through areas that had large forest fires go through

One thing that strikes you is the notable lack of craters.

On edit - Naturally, I mean I have driven through these areas after the forest fire had passed, sometimes years after. Areas like this are common enough in Canada.

[shadu]

9. seems pretty much right on schedule

[Old and In the Way]

12. Mushroom Clouds are a common feature of forest fires.

Where's Condi? Somethings up in NK....that blast a few months ago, I'm wondering if it was another manifestation of the Bush doctrine of pre-emptive regime change? Odd that they wouldn't be raising the threat level if nukes are exploding in NK, don't you think?

[Protected]

17. Yonhap is now calling it a "column of black smoke w/radius about 3km"

http://english.yna.co.kr/Engnews/20040912/310000000020040912155022E9.html

[Ohio rules]

22. maybe it was a slash and burn harvest festival got out of hand

I wonder how many villagers left in the region could give an eyewitness account.

[teryang]

40. Slash and burn is in the early spring

It isn't associated with any celebration.

[chenGOD]

36. On Korean news they showed photos...

It was a column of black smoke that they showed. No I don't know if the photos are accurate or where they are from, but that's what they showed. When the video comes up for grabs on the net I'll see if I can't somehow share it with the people here at DU.

[Yuna]

59. Don't tell anyone in the last thread

Soon they will be telling you that you don't know anything about forest fires.

[allemand]

60. We certainly have some "strong believers" here among us.

;-)

[MercutioATC]

13. Don't worry. Kim's just a "pygmy". So sayeth Bush.

:hurts:

[Renew Deal]

16. He said that?

[MercutioATC]

21. Yep

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=14563

[Renew Deal]

24. What an ass

Nothing surprises me anymore.

[MercutioATC]

51. Apparently, that's "diplomacy" under this administration.

When dealing with a foreign leader with nukes who doesn't like you to begin with, insult him in a childish manner...

:eyes:

[Fleshdancer]

14. remember...only YOU can prevent forest mushroom clouds.

:silly:

[jeff30997]

18. Hehehe...

[EST]

29. Actually, 'ol Kimmy baby had called China and placed an order

some time ago. Told them that this was a really special b'day party and he wanted a really special firecracker (or bottle rocket or whatever)
Kinda wonder why they wanted to explode the damn thing in a spot that was soo hard to get to and nobody around to see?
Actually, it was probably one of them there special worm turds sent over to them by senator Jeff Sessions!

[bluestateguy]

25. Corporate media and "US officials" in full whitewash mode

:eyes:

[Walt Starr]

26. Red Truth

Blue Truth requires radiological and seismic data in order to determine the nature of this Red Forest Fire.

[Swamp Rat]

32. Green Truth

Actually, back in the early days of the invasion, it was called "Operation Green Truth" or in alien language: "hiss gurgle braap."

[21winner]

37. There you are again.

Thank you for posting sanity. Its so short here on this .

[Yuna]

61. In the last thread

You attacked me for wanting this kind of evidence as not knowing what I was talking about. Only "one way to know" was it. <cough>

Every source today indicates this was not a nuke as I originally said. I hope everyone takes a look at the evidence (or lack thereof), realizes this was not a nuke, and calms down.

[Walt Starr]

72. #1 I didn't attack YOU!

#2, I never claimed in any thread that this was a nuclear test, only that it *could* be. You claimed there was no way it could be.

#3 What I attacked was your lack of knowledge about unconventional weaponry.

[Yuna]

79. #2

"could be". Everything "could" be something. I "could" have a billion dollars in the bank. That doesn't mean it's bloody likely and even worth considering.

When you were arguing it "could be” the evidence was massively sided against such a possibility. Yet, many thought it perfectly fine to assume the least likely possibility was true. Never mind though - somehow I was the one who lacked knowledge for failing to jump to the least likely conclusion. That must be why I was proven correct today despite my supposed lack of knowledge.

This is the key reason we are in the political mess we are in today. So many just assume they know something with out any evidence what so ever, because they want to believe something, or because those around them believe something. Those who try to educate them are assumed to be wrong. If people bothered to actually learn about the regime bush would be polling at 5% right now. Likewise, the same applys to nuke detonation accusations.

[Philostopher]

27. See? Apparently, Ronald Reagan was right all along.

When he said that pollution was caused by methane farts from ruminant animals, I mean. That's what happened -- all those North Korean ruminants wandered into a forest fire and farted, and they caused a crater.

When there are bizarre birth defects twenty miles east of the blast area in South Korea, I wonder what they'll blame that on? South Koreans not taking better care of themselves? Demon rock and roll and deviant Hollywood movies? Fluoridated water?

[Kagemusha]

28. Well they want to shut down independent sat imagery for a reason

And this would be why.

[EST]

30. Yep, satellite acting funny again.

n/t

[Realityhack]

33. A nuke would...

cause a sismic event that everyone would capture including not gov. scientists. It is unlikely that this was nuclear if we aren't hearing anything about that.

RH

[21winner]

38. Thanks for the sanity.

Rational thought is always under attack these days.

[Yupster]

39. Remember Chernobyl

non-governmental labs and colleges were picking up nuke readings before the Soviet government admitted to anything.

[Yuna]

80. Exactly

And a nuke would be many times more than chernobyl.

[LifeDuringWartime]

56. last night on DU

someone posted a picture of global seismic activity on one of the cloud threads. there was a lot of activity over korea.

[Ediacara]

65. Do you have a link for that?

The USGS has no activity above a M2.5 in Korea for the last week. I've also checked earthquake tracking sites in Japan and China, and they both come up with nothing.

Additionally, there is a quote by a USGS scientist somewhere in this thread saying in no uncertain terms that they have detected nothing and that even a small nuke would create seismic waves, although a very large bomb probably would be too small.

Here are the maps available from the USGS for the portion of Korea in question:

[allemand]

67. Does the USGS list all small earthquakes?

A South Korean government official, speaking on the condition of anonymity: "The Korea Meteorological Administration's measuring of a 2.6 on the Richter scale also helped."
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200409/12/200409122231504979900090209021.html

My impression is that they list small earthquakes only if they occur in the U.S.

[Ediacara]

68. The USGS lists all EQs over M2.5

Regardless... they have USGS representatives saying that there was NO seismic activity whatsoever.

[allemand]

69. So doesn't it surprise you that most small earthquakes seem to occur

in the U.S., according to the USGS list?

[Ediacara]

76. Look: how about checking the legend? :-)

Below each map, the legend states the magnitude of earthquakes listed. outside of the US, they list M2.5+, and inside the US they list M1.0+. That's why the US looks like it has most of the world's small earthquakes....

See, this is the legend for non-US earthquakes:


And this is the one for US earthquakes (as well as a map showing an EQ in Yellowstone):


There is a claim that the SK govt recorded a M2.6 earthquake, yet the USGS shows nothing of the sort.

[allemand]

77. Please look at the list of earthquakes M2.5+ and count...

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/recenteqsww/Quakes/quakes_all.html

Coincidence?

[Ediacara]

78. And count what? That most earthquakes are in earthquake zones?

In any case your reasoning is a little off. Most of the US earthquakes are in central Alaska, which seems to have experienced an earthquake swarm in the last week.

[allemand]

82. Don't you think that there should be swarms of earthquakes in other parts

of the world, too?

Ok, that was just an observation concerning the list in general, but I concede that the "2.6" earthquake mentioned in the news report could well have appeared on that list.

I wonder if the South Korean counterpart of the USGS has a website with online earthquake data. I already looked for it, but unfortunately my Korean is restricted to a little more than "annyong haseyo". :-)

Maybe our Korean friend chenGOD can help us?

[w4rma]

34. BushCo *really* doesnt want to admit to Americans that NK has nukes.

FOREST FIRE!! Jebus. Crazy.

[Dem2theMax]

35. Ah yes. The 'forest fire in a crater that sends up mushroom clouds' fire-

ask any southern Californian - we saw those all over the place last summer. :crazy:

I figured * was on drugs. Now I'm thinking the whole damned administration is 'lining' up on a daily basis.

Forest fires that cause craters and mushroom clouds. Yeah right.
And I'm the Easter bunny. I'd ask "how stupid do they think we are?" but half the country is going to vote for this idiot, so that pretty much answers that question. :silly:

[Snazzy]

41. Thankfully...

(if you can say then when you say nuclear)...

if this is the real deal (and sounds like it to me), Europe will be all over it. Besides just NK having a scary confirmed nuke, the atmospheric test will enrage environmentalists everywhere. No way our press can suppress that, election year or not.

BBC:

Our correspondent notes that the North Korean regime's hatred of the US has intensified since President George W Bush denounced it as part of an "axis of evil".

North Korean leader Kim Jong-il has said in the past Mr Bush would not have invaded Iraq if Saddam Hussein had had nuclear weapons capable of use.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3648794.stm

Edit, head on that article: UK demands N Korea explain blast

[whitehouserefugee_SF]

42. Kim Jong Il Wouldn't waste nukes

Kim jong il, if he does posess nukes (it's been said that north korea has the capabilities to make up to five nuclear warheads) could ill afford to waste even one of his nuclear bargaining chips on anything as unpredictable and frivolous as an above ground test. There is technology that can determine whether or not the bombs posessed are still in working condition, that's why the US and Russia no longer need to test fire these weapons (unless you count the coming nuclear bunker-busters). Anyway, I have suspicions that the blast was probably carried out with large amounts of conventional explosives in an attempt A: demonstrate the republic's nuclear capabilities to indoctrinate the north korean people. and B: To attract potential purchasers of nuclear arms (terrorists) and even if there is no evidence of radiation in the coming days it will still establish concern nationwide. Say no radiation is found, the symbolism of the act sends a message to the world that kim jong il is quite willing to use and test nuclear missiles whether he has them or not.

Pearson

[allemand]

43. How about an exploding missile (perhaps with non-nuclear warhead)?

"Kim Hyong-jik Country, where the explosion is known to have taken place. is across the Yalu River from Jilin Province, China, and South Korean intelligence authorities understand that a base for Taepodong 1 and 2 missiles was located at the town of Yongjo-ri, in a mountainous region of the province."
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200409/200409120002.html

"``The area is too close to China for it to have been a nuclear weapons test and go undetected,'' said Koh Yu Hwan, a professor of North Korean studies at Seoul's Dongguk University."
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000101&sid=aXhpw2l.IMtg&refer=japan

[allemand]

44. Gov't Confirms 'Non-Nuclear' N. Korean Explosion

"A high-ranking government official said Sunday, “It is true that a large mushroom cloud about 3.5 to 4 km in diameter was observed by a satellite at around 11:00 a.m. Thursday. It was not a nuclear test, but the explosion seemed to be three times bigger than the one that took place during the Ryongchon Station accident,” and added, “Both U.S. and Korean intelligence authorities are investigating what caused the explosion.”

<...>

The accident took place in a mountainous region 1,500 meter above sea level around Yongjo-ri, where it is known that there were many munitions factories nearby. In particular, the exact spot of explosion is only 10km away southwest from the Yongjo-ri base for Rodong 1 and 2 missiles and some 30km away from the Sino-Korean border.

There is much talk about the cause of the explosion. The government official said, “If a nuclear test causes an explosion, we can detect it by reading satellite data. Thus, the recent explosion in North Korea was not caused by a nuclear test.” The intelligence authorities assume that an ammunition depot with over 1,000 tons of dynamite or an ammunition car may have exploded, or there may have been a chain explosion of chemical material or a big fire. Some Chinese sources argue that a massive explosion took pace in a munitions factory. Hong Sun-jik, director at the Hyundai Economic Institute said, “Other than the assumption that it may be a simple accident that took place due to old facilities, we cannot exclude the possibility that the explosion may have taken place due to the lack of control of the Kim Jong-il regime, or it may have been connected to a secret feud over the successor of Kim Jong-il following the rumor of death of Kim’s wife, Ko Young-hee.”"

More:
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200409/200409120026.html

[Junkdrawer]

45. Why deny? --- "Kerry challenges Bush troop plan" (Korea troop withdraw)

CINCINNATI, Ohio (CNN) -- Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry on Wednesday blasted President Bush's plan to withdraw 70,000 U.S. troops from Asia and Europe, saying it isn't the right time for such a move.

Speaking to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the same group to which Bush announced his plan Monday, Kerry said the president's plan is vague and would take too long to achieve.

He also said some aspects of it could be dangerous.

"For example, why are we withdrawing unilaterally 12,000 troops from the Korean peninsula at the very time that we are negotiating with North Korea, a country that really has nuclear weapons?" the decorated Vietnam veteran asked at the VFW's 105th annual meeting.

"As Sen. John McCain said, 'I'm particularly concerned about moving troops out of South Korea when North Korea has probably never been more dangerous at any time since the end of the Korean War,' " Kerry quoted the Republican senator as saying.

.....

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/18/kerry.troops/

[Deja Q]

46. How many forests spontaneously go *poof* and create a big mushroom cloud?!

Has anybody checked the radiation count? :shrug:

[Dover]

47. This 'news' certainly didn't make the headlines of any Asian papers

that I could find. I mean, you'd think a mushroom cloud would get a little attention from their neighbors, and at least warrant a line or two in the news columns.

[allemand]

49. It depends on when they update their headlines.

On edit:

http://times.hankooki.com/
http://www.seouldaily.com/
http://english.chosun.com/
http://www.chosun.com/

all report it already.

[allemand]

48. Satellite image of the area (before explosion)

"The picture shows the near areas North Korea's Youngjo-ri, Ryanggang Province which was taken by the satellite of the U. S. firm DigitalGlobe in February 2003. The area in the circle is Youngjo-ri and the squared area is 10km to the southwest, where the explosion may have taken place. The dotted line is the railroads of Youngjo-ri and thick line is the boundary line of Ryanggang Province and Jagang Province."
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200409/200409120031.html

Ed. for link.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

50. Hmm...Maybe another horrific rail explosion?

:shrug:
Forest fire, my ass.

[Zynx]

52. To even think that we would believe it is a forest fire is insulting.

Something happened and I demand to know the answer!

[ursacorwin]

53. i'm trying so hard to be calm.

thanks for the reminder about the data, walt.

that said. we all remember the SK gov't little problem with enriched u & pl recently? what the hell is going on?

can ANYONE find realtime sat data? i keep getting shut out of sites, i think i have to go to work where i have a faster connection...

[Just Me]

54. Is someone trying to incite a war over there?

I can't help but wonder.

[daleo]

83. Check out the route of the presumed railway line

It seems to be an approximation at best. A real line wouldn't go straight through (or over) those mountains, but would follow the contour lines. At least not the rail lines I have been on.

That is some pretty mountainous country by the look of the photo. You could probably hide a lot in there. It wouldn't be easy to invade. You can see why the Korean war was so difficult, if this is typical of the topography.

[allemand]

55. N.Korea blast probably not nuclear

"South Korea's Chosun Ilbo newspaper said the site was 6 miles southwest of the Yongjori Missile Base at a point 18 miles from the China frontier. The mountainous area is off-limits to outsiders, including aid workers.

The base has tunnels for storing, deploying and launching medium-range Rodong missiles, according to defector reports.

<...>

John Bellini, a geophysicist at the U.S. Geological Survey in Golden, Colorado, said his organisation had not detected an explosion large enough to be considered nuclear.

"If it was a nuclear bomb, that would have been detected by everybody in the world," he said. A blast involving a conventional bomb would have been too small to detect, he said."

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=581818§ion=news

[Beetwasher]

70. Yes, I'll Take His Word Alone For It

I mean, it's totally impossible that a US gov't employed scientist would lie about something like that...

I'll wait for independent verification from other sources beside ONE gov't scientist.

[Poll_Blind]

57. As an aside, Bush looked extremely distracted during 9/11 speech.

I read the first thread(s) about the explosion last night and then this morning when I was reading the new threads I remembered how incredibly distracted Bush looked when he was reading his address to the nation on Sept. 11th. Does anyone else recall how he sat there, hardly addressing the camera at all while he made no attempt to hide the fact that he was reading the speech from a few sheets of paper he would often lift off the desk, giving an even clearer impression that he was "phoning it in"?

I was a little suprised that such an important speech would be so poorly executed. He looked like a 14-year old who was asked to read a selected poem to the class. "What's he got to get to that's so important that he can't put more effort into this thing while families of the dead are literally standing around him?" was my thought. This cloud have something to do with it?

PB

[Radioactive]

58. Satellite image??

So where are the satellite images of this crater?

[ckdexter]

62. North Korea is talking

They say it was a train accident involving dynamite. Seems strange that this could produce a nuke-sized mushroom cloud, though.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3654189.stm

[The Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

63. Check the date...

"Last Updated: Saturday, 24 April, 2004, 10:40 GMT 11:40 UK"

[Ediacara]

64. This is reference to the OTHER

Giant, unexplained, explosion in Korea last spring.

[ckdexter]

71. Sorry, my mistake

Thanks for catching it.

[ezekiel333]

75. MOAB?

Non nuke, big cloud

<http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/11/sprj.irq.moab>

[DeepModem Mom]

81. Any reports of any atmospheric tests being conducted??? nt

[ItsThePeopleStupid]

84. map of seismic events in the last 2 weeks

http://www.iris.edu/seismon/

[daleo]

85. There were some mag 7+ earthquakes in Japan this week

Not in populated areas, though. That would probably account for the really big rings the map shows in that area, rather than whatever happened in N.K. on the 9th.

[ItsThePeopleStupid]

86. just read about that, thanks n/t