US Denies Targeting Iraqi Civilians in Baghdad Incident (VOA)

[Nambe]

VOA News

U.S. military officials in Iraq are denying reports that a U.S. helicopter gunship opened fire on civilians in Baghdad at the site of a roadside bombing that destroyed a military vehicle.

U.S. officials say the helicopter was responding to a distress call from the vehicle's occupants and fired on insurgents after taking ground fire. Officials say the helicopter also targeted the abandoned Bradley fighting vehicle to prevent the loss of sensitive equipment and weapons. ..

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Ok, ok is it alrady five O'Clock

Five O'Clock Follies folks... and is Westmoreland reading this statement?

[Jacobin]

44. Whenever I see the headline start "military denying......"

You already know its true and the denial is a lie.

What, no more rural wedding parties to shoot rockets into?

[cal04]

2. only republicans would believe that nonsense

Tens of Iraqis, including women and children, have died in a day of fierce clashes between Iraqi militiamen and US troops across the country.In Ramadi, US tanks and helicopters killed 10 Iraqi civilians when they opened fire on a residential district, a doctor said.

Abd al-Salam Muhammad, of Ramadi Hospital, said a further 40 Iraqis were wounded by US forces in the town, west of Baghad.Witnesses said US forces had clashed with Iraqi fighters in the town earlier on Sunday.

A US military spokesman did not immediately have any information on the fighting.

Baghdad strike

Earlier in the day, at least 10 Iraqis were killed and 35 others injured after US helicopters fired missiles at a crowd in a central Baghdad street.

[Red Fox]

3. They have a copy of that tape from that reporter guy?

Or was that non-existent? Then it would be clear if there was shooting from the ground, and if that did indeed justify raining bullets and missiles on them.

I somehow doubt it, though, but ah well.

[cal04]

4. they were reporting but nothing about a tape

A PALESTINIAN television journalist was killed today as he was giving a live report to camera on deadly clashes between US forces and insurgents in the heart of the Iraqi capital.

Residents of his home town in the West Bank watched in horror as Mazen al-Tomaisi, who worked for Saudi television Akhbariya and for the pan-Arab satellite channel Al-Arabiya, went down.

Mr Tomaisi, 28, was killed when a US helicopter fired missiles on a mob which had gathered round a US tank in Baghdad that had been set ablaze in a car bomb attack, one of a string of bombings across the capital today. Blood spattered across the cameraman's lens and screams were heard by viewers of the Al-Arabiya report. Mr Tomaisi, from the West Bank town of Idna, is the fourth Palestinian journalist killed in Iraq.


An Iraqi cameraman and an Iraqi photographer were also slightly wounded by flying shrapnel during the attack.An Iraqi official later said a total of 13 people were killed, including two children, and 55 were wounded during the battle in Haifa Street, a suspected bastion of Saddam Hussein loyalists, where insurgents and US troops clash regularly.

[lockdown]

22. I think part of the footage is here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3648786.stm

Try the video link on that page. I don't use Real Player so can't check, but that seems to be the report BBC tv is showing that includes at least part of the footage. There's a crowd around the burning vehicle but things seem calm and no shooting can be seen or heard. The journalist is stood in the open talking to camera with the scene in the background, again, obviously no shooting going on when the helicopter strike comes from nowhere.

War crime caught on camera. Of course their mere presence at the scene makes them insurgent terrorist beheaders, and curious kids and journalists who gather at the scene of any explosion are also obviously accomplices who deserve to die. God bless the crusaders!

[Ms. Clio]

5. Oh, then it's okay then--they weren't firing on the people

They were firing on the burning vehicle, and all those dead folks just got in the way.

[luaneryder]

6. VOA always tells the truth

the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Of course!

[tabasco]

7. I'm sure the Iraqis will forgive us now.

Imagine the rage we are creating in the Iraqi people. I wish we could draft Bush supporters to go patrol in the happy stabilized streets of Iraq.

[Radius]

8. Would be interesting

to see the GCF from the helicopter. That would settle it quick.

The insurgents exploded a car bomb to knock out the bradley, takes more than a rifle. Grenades were mentioned in the AP story. Blowing a grenade in the street is going to hit people within a 60 foot diameter with shrapnel. I wonder if they killed anyone with that?

I wonder how many iraqi bystanders it takes to kill one soldier or Iraqi policeman. That would be an interesting ratio..

[Ms. Clio]

10. I wonder how many apologetics for atrocities you can make

You appear to have an endless supply of excuses for U.S. actions against Iraqis.

[Radius]

11. What

about Iraqi atrocities against Iraqis. Those get little play but Iraqi police are being killed in much higher numbers than our troops. I still would like a figure on how many Iraqi civilians are blown up by insurgents while killing or trying to kill troops or Iraqi police. I'd guess it is at minimum 3:1 but 10:1 would not surprise me.

I'm just curious who killed who. Car bomb, frag grenades, hellfire missiles and mini gun fire were all involved in this incident. I make no apology for my position, and don't rush to judgment.

[Ms. Clio]

13. Those "atrocities" would not be occurring at all if the U.S.

had not invaded their country. I don't think that's such a difficult concept to grasp. And what is the ratio of innocent civilians who die when the US "targets a safe house" in Fallujah or Sadr City?

It's clear that you are always ready to make apologies for U.S. war crimes. It's also clear that the crowd was fire on by U.S. helicopters, and that's who killed who, in this particular instance.

[Radius]

14. Then you

can send me a copy of the GCF from the helo to support your claim, or you are just talking out your ass. You have no facts. They could have been hit by us or by the people trying to blow our people up. This is pretty common tactic for the insurgents. Lots of the guys the iraqi police are catching aren't even Iraqi.

Nothing is clear.

Not supporting the war is not the same as being anti us and assuming everything that happens is a us war crime.

[Ms. Clio]

15. There were reporters who filmed it

One of them was killed in the process.

Those are the facts. Deal with it.

Like Truman called the A-bomb his "ace in the hole" in his negotiations with the Russians in May of 1945. Deal with it.

[Radius]

17. Got a link

to the footage?

I haven't seen any yet. Interesting how al-jiz is able to get the scoop. I bet they are embedded with the insurgents. Dangerous work.

Negotiating for the great deal we got with East and West Germany and the blockade?

[Ms. Clio]

19. Links

A pair of US helicopters then swooped down over the neighborhood and fired off missiles and heavy machine-gun fire at the mob, causing the crowd to run, an AFP reporter witnessed

(snip)

The US aircraft fire left at least five corpses scattered on the ground.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/iraq_unrest

Here's a photo of one of those dangerous insurgents:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040912/photos_wl_me_afp/040912045208_yngyv6yc_photo0

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=2&u=/ap/20040912/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

The dead from the helicopter strike included Arab television reporter Mazen al-Tumeizi, who screamed, "I'm dying, I'm dying," as a cameraman recorded the chaotic scene. An Iraqi cameraman working for the Reuters news agency and an Iraqi freelance photographer for Getty Images were wounded.


You never learn, do you? I think it's crystal clear who is talking out of whose ass--maybe you should try reading the first page or so of LBN before you start making excuses for war crimes.

On edit: I see you have already been through one of those threads, so you clearly knew that a reporter had already been killed, and that he was not with Al-Jazeera.

Your disingenousness is utterly exposed now.

[Radius]

25. All talk, no video

No video. Video has no politics, no motive, and never lies. We might as well be arguing about whose god is better.

Unless you have a link to gun camera footage from the aircraft it is impossible to see who killed who. Footage from the ground would help but would be hard to tell ground fire from helo fire or one of the thousands of he rounds in that vehicle exploding. Can you tell the difference in an IED and Hellfire explosion, I can't.

I've read that, and plenty of others.

Was you pic before or after the strike, you don't know? You as a historian should know the importance of a timeline and evidence.

You are an expert on the Geneva convention too. War crimes, genocide, megadeath.. sound and fury, no proof no indictments, just rhetoric.

My question is how much of this is politics for you? I'm reserving judgment, I would do the same no matter who was in office. The guys on the ground are not your enemy. They are your neighbors.

Will your opinion change in November and our plan changes to pull out in 4 years and invite the western Europeans in to the war? Don't answer, just think about it.

[Ms. Clio]

29. Whatever, I'm PISSing on you, from now on

That's a historical Net term, google it.

I don't need video to know what happened--photos and witness statements will suffice. Witnesses clearly state that fire from the helicopter killed five people. People from the dead reporter's hometown were watching when he was killed by that fire.

You constantly change the terms of the argument, and when someone provides you with incontrovertible proof that you are wrong, you simply move on to spread your lies and propaganda somewhere else.

I've had enough.

[Radius]

32. Can't take the heat, leave the kitchen, noble move.

Witnesses clearly stated that a spanish mine blew up the USS Maine.

You've got your agenda and are free to protect it any way you see fit. Blinders work well.

I asked you for video, that is a problem?

[Ms. Clio]

33. See post 22 for video

That's all.

[leftchick]

20. It was a Reuters Photographer who died...

And a correspondent for the Arabic language Al-Arabiya television station.

No mention of Aljazeera "getting the scoop"..... :eyes:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=2&u=/ap/20040912/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

<snip>
The dead from the helicopter strike included Arab television reporter Mazen al-Tumeizi, who screamed, "I'm dying, I'm dying," as a cameraman recorded the chaotic scene. An Iraqi cameraman working for the Reuters news agency and an Iraqi freelance photographer for Getty Images were wounded.

[Radius]

21. Stringer

A terrible loss, A link to that footage would be very helpful.

[Ms. Clio]

23. There were other reporters, other witnesses

You will excuse any atrocity.

You are completely disingenuous.

I will not take you seriously at all, anymore.

[Radius]

26. Got Video? I reserve judgment until the facts are in, good to do(nt)

[leftchick]

27. I am sure any footage has been confiscated....

by the Imperial US occupiers.
Here is what one photographer saw. Poor kid does not look like an Iraqi Fighter to me...




An unidentified father carries his injured child to a hospital in Baghdad, Iraq (news - web sites), Sunday Sept. 12, 2004. The child was injured when a U.S. helicopter fired at a burning Bradley fighting vehicle surrounded by cheering crowds at Haifa street according to witnesses. (AP Photo/Hadi Mizban)

[Radius]

30. Right

I see your point, but was it an American gunship that injured him or someone blowing up a Bradley or throwing frag grenades at its occupants on city streets?

I just want information before I conclude anything.

Somehow questioning the idea that every time someone is killed it is an American war crime seems to be bad juju.

[leftchick]

36. The event is reported in the caption...

It isn't the official US version so you may not believe it.

[Ms. Clio]

37. And the BBC video isn't the GCF

So it won't be good enough to base a rational opinion on, either.

(dyslexia edit)

[Radius]

41. BBC

Is fine. I like hard facts before I form an opinion.
It looks like we killed civilians. And that deserves an explanation.

Not jumping feet first into MSM is a hard learned lesson. AP originally reported "jubilant fighters" the video shows people with no weapons. I am not unwilling to say this was wrong, only unwilling to judge without evidence.

I'm sure AP has changed the article by now.
Video does not lie.

[Malva Zebrina]

18. well then by all means--kill anyone, any child, any person

who was dancing around there. Kill them all because they are all "potential" insurgents.

How nice--this war has caused people to lose their sense of clear thinking. This pre-empt anything within 100 feet, whether it be children playing in an empty lot, or a pregnant woman sitting inside a "suspected" house.

Kill them all--what a horrible, horrible thing has happened to the human beings sense of right and wrong because of this slaughter brought about by George Bush and the neo-cons.


Be happy--we will kill them all and we certainly can with our great military apparatus that apparently has trained good men and women to lose their sense of right and wrong--whether innocent in their beds sleeping or playing outside their homes--they deserve it--right?

[Darranar]

9. Just "accidental", I suppose?

Naturally, they didn't know that they would kill civilians if they fired into a crowd....

[Radius]

12. You mean

the people who set off a car bomb big enough to take out a bradley and then threw frag grenades at the guys escaping. This happened on a city street. I'm sure they didn't hurt anyone by setting off god knows how many of pounds of HE and then tossing grenades that throw metal in a 60 foot circle. They have taken such careful measures in the past not to kill iraqis just standing around when a vehicle drives by.

It would be interesting to see the GCF to find out just who we killed.

[shadu]

16. The US has targeted Iraqi civilians since day one

Aren't you paying attention?

[gottaB]

24. Your point about the recklessness of the insurgents is taken, but...

The US has already admitted that civilians were killed by its attack. Reuters can't confirm the US claim that its helicoptors were fired upon from the ground. There will be an investigation by the military, for what that's worth. Thus the judgement exercized by the combat soldiers in this incident is clearly questionable--which isn't to say one should conclude that a war crime has been committed. Hostilities on the part of the insurgents may or may not be a mitigating factor, but they should definitely not be presented as an excuse or a case for moral equivalence. Regardless of who was killed, it would be wise to see it as an occasion for mourning.



Weapons are tools of destruction hated by people.
Therefore followers of the Way never use them.
In peace leaders favor the creative left.
In war they favor the destructive right.

Weapons are tools of destruction,
not used by good leaders.
When their use cannot be avoided,
the best policy is calm restraint.

Even in victory there is no glory.
Those who celebrate victory delight in slaughter.
Those who delight in slaughter
will not be successful leaders.
Fortune is on the left;
Misfortune is on the right.
That is to regard it as a funeral.
The killing of many should be mourned with sorrow.
A victory should be celebrated with funeral ceremonies.

[Radius]

28. Totally Agree

I just want the whole story before I make a judgment.
Loss of like on all sides is terrible. The sooner we leave the better.

[Sideways]

38. You have over 600 posts in less than 30 days

Most of them highly inflammatory and down right belligerent. What exactly are you doing here? BTW I am sick of your spelling personnel personell. Use spell check dude.

[Radius]

40. I have

always been polite until someone has been rude to me. I have disagreed with methuselah before.

If you read my posts you will find them to be tolerant, reasonable and, polite. I have never attacked anyone first but will not take insult any more than you would.

You would probably find that we agree on environmental and social issues abound. I just dislike all American soldiers being classified as criminals or murders. They didn't put themselves in Iraq. Politics should not be put on soldiers. Responsibility for the war lays with the administration, not the military. They are not my enemy.

I also have no problem after looking at video saying that strike was unwarranted and killed non-combatants. This should be explained at the highest level.

As for spelling I will apologize for that. In spades.

[Darranar]

34. One side's atrocities don't excuse the other of the same. n/t

[daleo]

31. CNN had a surprisingly objective story today

They told the military's version, then the observers' versions from the ground. The military first said that the group on the ground was trying to strip the Bradley of its weaponry, and they were therefore trying to destroy the Bradley before that could happen. As the vehicle was on fire, that explanation seems unlikely. Witnesses on the ground say the crowd was throwing rocks and hitting the burning vehicle with pipes, so the helicopter opened up on them. Four U.S. soldiers were said to have been hurt, they didn't say how badly. But, this sounds like simple retaliation to me.

[reticulatus]

35. They just showed the video on BBC World

There was a burning vehicle in the background, but no sign of any US personnel, so it they must have already been picked up. There was no sign of insurgents, or of any firing, just a bunch of curious onlookers of all ages milling around. The reporter started talking to the camera and gestured behind himself to the wreck. Bang. Smoke, chaos and blood on the camera lens.

[Radius]

39. Here is the link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3648786.stm

All I wanted. It looks like someone really fucked up and fired when they should not have. All though not gun camera footage it looks like a missile hit. Its ordinance could have exploded but a missile seems more reasonable.

No weapons in anyone, looks like we killed civilians.

Conclusion drawn from fact.

My entire point was that I was unwilling to draw a conclusion without proof, this is proof.

[jayfish]

42. Yet You Draw Conclusions All The Damn Time As Long As They...

support your line of reasoning. The worst part is that you constantly demand proof for every assertion that goes against your viewpoint and you NEVER present anything to back YOURSELF up. You are one of the worst hypocrites I have seen.

Oh and BTW... you are usually wrong.

Jay

[Radius]

45. Sorry

never been one to just believe what I'm told. I saw the video and the conclusion is obvious.

Until I saw the video it was impossible to rule out any number of things.

What is the problem with waiting to see it to make a call? My reasoning was that any number of things could have killed people, grenades car bombs, missiles or gunfire. Saw an explosion, that explains it. It is reasonable to think we killed those people with a hellfire missile.

What is the problem with waiting for evidence to form an opinion.

BTW: My viewpoint is fluid, changing information makes static thinking unreasonable. AP had it one way, the video another.

[jayfish]

46. But You Expect Everyone To Just Believe What You...

tell them, all the while demanding in-damnable proof to support their viewpoint.

Jay

[Radius]

47. I don't expect shit.

If someone believes something it is because they choose to. I'm not trying to change your mind. I don't care what you think, no offense. I look at a story based on what the facts present. AP said one thing early, then video showed something different later.

I am willing to back up anything I say with a link. If I cant find a link for something I say I will say so and retract it. That is fair play. Since when is asking for a link bad.

Some idiot in the nuke threat forum posted that Israel was building a genetically selective virus to kill Palestinians and wolfowitz made reference to it. Asked him for a link, you think he has one yet? Links keep everyone honest and cut down on bullshit.

Viewpoint is a political subjective kind of thing. This was an incident based in fact. Either we killed civilians or we didn't, looks like we did.

I have a viewpoint on why radio sucks and when it started to suck, and who will win the world series, fuck Boston just in case you wondered.

[Radius]

48. Dupe(nt)

[Porcupine]

43. No! No! Insurgents!! Dead Iraqi's

are insugents by definition. A seven year old girl killed by American troops is as much an insurgant as a seventeen year old boy with a Kalishnikov!

How do we know; they're dead of course. The same rules apply as Vietnam. All persons killed or injured were armed insurgents NOT civilians!

Good job staying on message!

{sarcasm off}