RockyMtnNews: GIs claim threat by Army

[krkaufman]

Heard about this on today's Franken Show, from Christy Harvey...

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/state/article/0,1299,DRMN_21_3185596,00.html

GIs claim threat by Army
Soldiers say they were told to re-enlist or face deployment to Iraq

By Dick Foster, Rocky Mountain News
September 16, 2004

COLORADO SPRINGS - Soldiers from a Fort Carson combat unit say they have been issued an ultimatum - re-enlist for three more years or be transferred to other units expected to deploy to Iraq.

Hundreds of soldiers from the 3rd Brigade Combat Team were presented with that message and a re-enlistment form in a series of assemblies last Thursday, said two soldiers who spoke on condition of anonymity.

...

A Fort Carson spokesman confirmed the re-enlistment drive is under way and one of the soldiers provided the form to the Rocky Mountain News.

...

The form, if signed, would bind the soldier to the 3rd Brigade until Dec. 31, 2007. The two soldiers said they were told that those who did not sign would be transferred out of the 3rd Brigade Combat Team.

"They said if you refuse to re-enlist with the 3rd Brigade, we'll send you down to the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, which is going to Iraq for a year, and you can stay with them, or we'll send you to Korea, or to Fort Riley (in Kansas) where they're going to Iraq," said one of the soldiers, a sergeant.

...

WHAT THE FORM SAID

• "Elect not to extend or re-enlist and understand that the soldier will be reassigned IAW (in accordance with) the needs of the Army by Department of the Army HRC (Human Resources Command) . . . or Fort Carson G1 (Personnel Office).''

WHAT IT MEANS

• Soldiers who sign the letter are bound to the 3rd Brigade Combat Team until Dec. 31, 2007.

• Soldiers who do not sign the letter might be transferred out of the brigade and possibly to Iraq.

[Nashyra]

1. They should all start saying that they want to serve like their Commander

Early out, special consideration etc.

[Sparky McGruff]

27. They can just "work it out" with the army!

Say they want to go to business school, so they don't need to have a physical, attend drills, etc! Why doesn't everyone do that? (and if they get hurt, just use a "purple heart band-aid!)

[w4rma]

2. Less and less a volunteer army and more a conscription army. (nt)

[Eloriel]

10. Conscirption is too fine a word for it --

I'd call it extortion and slavery.

[0007]

37. I'd say it's more like "Blackmail"

This administration is good at this sort of stuff. Look at how they threaten their allies, and then punish the counties that won't kowtow to junior.

"Your either with us or against us" - They can shoot me cuz I'm against them.

[Scairp]

42. Yep

Why don't they just cut to the chase and threaten to kill them outright if they refuse to re-up? This is so repugnant.

[0007]

51. I've often wonder how that high suicide rate in Iraq with the

U.S. soldiers and the ones that died in their sleep.

[Bucky]

3. If they sign the agreement, can they go to Harvard for MBAs instead?

I think that's how it works.

[denverbill]

5. Can they opt to work on an election in Alabama instead?

That's a valid excuse in war-time.

[Bucky]

15. Moral clarity: "Reenlist, punk, or we'll force you to serve your country!"

Definitely the Age of Bush

[Mountainman]

4. These people are in a nightmare situation

At least the Army could be trusted to keep it's word about your discharge when I was in. I couldn't imagine them doing that to me.

[trogdor]

6. So, what would happen if everyone said no?

They can't transfer everybody; that would drop manning levels to unacceptable shortage levels, and get the commander in considerable hot water. I used to work at S-1 (battalion personnel office), and we would send quarterly personnel readiness reports to the division commander (rank: 2-star general). If we were to somehow become non-combat-ready for a lack of qualified personnel, our XO (rank: major) would shit his pants. I can imagine what a brigade XO (rank: lieutenant colonel) would do if he had to send such a report to the corps commander (rank: 3-star general).

The short version: they're bluffing. After three years of this, as a battalion personnel staff NCO, I'd be tempted to point out this fact while the troops were assembled, possibly by asking the retention NCO handing out the paperwork whether Colonel Soandso was worried about what the QTB numbers would look like after he transferred 2/3 of his unit out.

Letters to the editor can be addressed to: [e-mail]

[denverbill]

7. What's going to happen to the 3rd Brigade next year? Or in 2006?

I would definitely refuse to sign onto that crap. 3rd Brigade will probably be going anyway so it's just a matter of now versus later, and geting out now versus hitching on for another 3 years.

[rocktivity]

8. Well, do they have to re-enlist, or do they not?

:headbang:
rocknation

[malachi]

9. This just happened recently to the son of one of my friends.

He extended his tour of duty for two years in Korea to stay out the the hell that Iraq has become. Bright kid.

[trogdor]

16. Except now they're transferring people out of Korea.

People are PISSED! You can at least drink some soju and talk to the barmaids now and then in Korea.

[malachi]

32. Sounds like you've been to the Land of the Morning Calm.

Did 14 months in the early 70's as a guest of Uncle at 8th Army HQ in Yongsan. Soju, kimchee lethal stuff.

[trogdor]

52. 5/17 Cavalry, Yongjugol/Munsan. 1992

Started out in Yongjugol, then moved north about 2/3 through my tour. I used to write snarky letters to Pacific Stars and Stripes before one could get in trouble for having opinions. I did get the "why do you hate America?" treatment a couple of times, though.

I let out a big-ass HOOAH! when I heard over the mess hall radio that Clinton had been elected President. I couldn't stand 41 any more than I can 43. I remember officers muttering under their breath about how catastrophic this was going to be for the Army, etc.

What's worse than kimchee (which is good for digestion, BTW) is steamed mandu washed down with soju and juice. You stink like a local for the whole next day as the garlic or whatever they put in it comes out of your every pore. I love the stuff, though.

[kayell]

11. Someone posted that same situation here yesterday

I don't remember the location or other details. Off to hunt for that thread.

Here it is. Not yesterday but on Tuesday. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2351879

[Cha]

17. Thank for finding that!

This is some more of their back door policy to keep bush's little war going.

[nolabels]

12. What is the difference, they just will just issue stop loss orders

Can we say coercion :think:

Damn this letter was a hard to find a link to.

Claim that stop-loss orders are illegal

Are you a member of Bushs "shanghaied" army? Well listen up the following story is for you. The current act of forcing you to stay active through the use of a stop loss order is apparently wrong in more ways than one...

06-16-2004

Getting Screwed By Stop Loss?

CALL FOR PLAINTIFFS TO CONTEST MILITARY "STOP-LOSS" ORDERS
A group of San Francisco attorneys are seeking military service-members who'd be interested in participating as plaintiffs in a legal action contesting the Department of Defense's policy of using "stop-loss" orders to prolong military enlistments indefinitely. Their prospectus follows...


We are looking, ideally, for a service-member from the San Francisco / Northern California area, or whose unit / station is based in this area, who has had their separation, retirement, or maximum active duty period suspended by stop-loss. They may file using a "John Doe" pseudonym if they wish to keep their identity confidential.

The ideal plaintiff, for various reasons including their own interests, would be someone who already has served in Iraq, but who is in the U.S. at present and has yet to be shipped back overseas. However, we can try to work with someone currently overseas.


We know that a legal challenge to stop-loss is going to be tough and may not survive a motion to dismiss by the government, but we feel it is important to present the arguments and see what the courts (and public) think about it. We intend to argue that:

1) Stop-loss violates statutes prohibiting involuntary extensions of enlistment without a declaration of war or national emergency by Congress;

2) The statute granting presidential authority to suspend laws on separation and retirement anytime reservists are serving on active duty unconstitutionally delegates congressional authority to "raise armies" by allowing an involuntary 'draft' of combat veterans at the whim of the executive (and military);

3) Stop-loss is arbitrary and capricious, because the asserted justification is based on false information (or information has been withheld), and therefore violates the due process rights of service-members and the Administrative Procedures Act;

4) Stop-loss breaches service-members' enlistment contracts.

We are aware that there are legal counter-arguments for each of these theories, but they each have a foundation in law, and as importantly, many service-members and their families have arrived at these conclusions without need for legal analysis and thus seem to be based on "common sense."

Interested service-members should contact Marti Hiken or Josh Sondheimer:


JOSHUA SONDHEIMER
Attorney at Law
Law Offices of Michael S. Sorgen

Email: [e-mail]
Tel: [phone]
Fax: [phone]


MARTI HIKEN
Co-Chair, Military Law Task Force
National Lawyers Guild

Email: [e-mail]
Tel: [phone]
(snip)
http://www.politicalpuzzle.org/archives/2004/06/attention_consc.php

[Cha]

13. And the rocky mountain news is a

rightwing rag, too.

This is "extortion".."Illegal use of one's official position or powers to obtain property, funds, or patronage."

I hope it's illegal!

[trogdor]

26. Probably no more than the Utica Observer-Dispatch

Are they a Gannett paper, too, like the OD? I didn't check.

[Spiffarino]

14. Idiotic method IMO

So they re-up soldiers against their interests by threatening them with Iraq. It begs the question: How is the Army going to get civilians to enlist once they hear about this kind of thing? If the Army admits it's not going to treat my kid fairly, I would do everything I could to keep her from enlisting until they fix the problem.

What it sounds like is the Army doesn't care if they can't get civilians to join...voluntarily. What's next? Anybody? Anybody?

[kayell]

23. Good rhetorical question.

They don't care what methods they use, because pretty soon it won't matter.

[Bucky]

18. Decisions decisions. Go to Iraq till Dec '04, or go fight in Iran in '06.

If they get all those new sign-ups, guess where those poor kids'll be by election time 2006.

[The_Casual_Observer]

19. "I support my commander-in-chief"

Good luck in Iraq gentlemen and ladies.

[JoFerret]

41. They should vote to change him

then they might have another option.

[annabanana]

20. It's IRAQ either way... sign or not...

They are marking time until the election is over, then they can get the Draft up and running again.... DON'T SIGN.

[murray hill farm]

21. My son is one of those at fort carson

He was told that either reinlist..and go to iraq for a year..and you will be allowed to go with your team...those who you know and trust..OR...not reinlist and be shopped out in january to others teams that are folks u do not know and have not trained with..and go anyway to iraq..so..catch 22..u are going..so make the choice to go now with those u have trained with..or go in jan with who knows who to fight along side u. He reinlisted.

[annabanana]

22. I'm so sorry mexicoexpat...

I pray that he stays safe. How long is the reinlistment for?

[murray hill farm]

30. til 2007

and active instead of reserve. they have told him he will only be there for one year...and then back to ft carson...and can then retire as active..which means he can collect his retirement then..rather than wait until he is 60 to collect..that also was a recent change to keep them in and manipulate them to active status. I told him to just skip..come to mexico to live..and i will hide him forever..ha! But..hey...I am the "mom". He is 43 years old..been in the army all of his life...thought he would be retired and living legit in Mexico by now..he was in Iraq the first time and then Bosnia and it had been the plan that he would retire this year and be living..with his wife..here on Isla Mujeres. He tells me that those who he serves with believe that this is just the beginning of the wars that will never end.

[annabanana]

35. This is why we have to get this corrupt crew out.............n/t

[Qanisqineq]

55. mexicoxpat

I am at Ft. Carson and my husband is going through this, too. He hasn't made any decisions yet because he is trying other options (he's been in 9 years so he knows a few tricks). He's going to try becoming an instructor or a recruiter, or move to a nondeployable post... if none of those work, he's going to call the army's bluff and hope he doesn't go back to Iraq this fall.

[vogonity]

24. Intimidation of our own soldiers? Major backfire potential.

I shudder to think what will happen to the soldiers that have been horribly mistreated by the the shithead in chief. And these are the lucky ones that actually get back from Iraq alive. Let's see we have "Mission Accomplished" we have lightly armoured Humvees, we have tours of duty extended, we have a backdoor draft, we have blatant intimidation to extend service "or go to Iraq." We have an invasion of Fallujah followed by "never mind lets turn it over to the insurgents." We have US soldiers escorting Halliburton employed truck drivers making 3-4 times what the soldiers are.

I am beyond livid about what bush has done.

I have been typing and editing a sentence to try to express how angry I think these soldiers will be about the way this fiasco has played out. I have finally decided that I am not qualified to choose those words. I will leave that to the soldiers who have been there.

I'm sorry.

[annabanana]

28. Your anger is justified, and widespread...

Many, many people are furious about the way he has mistreated our kids. Those of us with teenagers are fearful of any future that Bush will conjure up for our children too. More and more parents of soldier and the soldiers themselves are recognizing that our government has BROKEN FAITH with those who serve.

This is why we fight. You have no reason to be sorry... you are not the guilty one.

and welcome to the Democratic Underground.

[bemildred]

29. Yeah, ought to really help with recruitment. nt

[HereSince1628]

36. Organizational behavior is directed "top-down"

there is nothing that the recruiting sergeants are doing that isn't consitent with their perception of their leadership's intent.

I would not be surprised to hear Bush, Cheney or Rumsfeld say that delaying or terminating the lives of these volunteers is probably the best thing that can happen to redress the unfortunate consequence of their conception to a mother who is "non-elite."

[nibbana]

25. Either way the will be labeled "cowards" by some chickenhawk

draft dodger..like Bush...

God bless and pray for our troops..

[Dhalgren]

31. Welcome to the United Fascist States of America.

I've said this over and over - this is FASCISM. The Republican Party is almost completely Fascist; the federal government is almost completely Fascist; the media is almost completely Fascist; and now the military is completely Fascist. We are going to have to fight before this is over - and I don't mean on some political campaign...

[nolabels]

33. Forced Contributions to GOP?

Forced Contributions to GOP?

PHILADELPHIA-September 14, 2004 — Employees of the Republican-controlled Philadelphia Parking Authority said they were told by their superiors to contribute to the GOP, or risk losing their jobs, a newspaper reported.

Five employees said they were pressured on the job to contribute $275 per year, the Philadelphia Daily News reported for Tuesday editions. Campaign finance records show dozens of $100 contributions this year from workers making $25,000 or less.

State law forbids demanding political contributions from public employees or contractors.

"It's extortion," said Michael J. Vecchione, who was hired two years ago to work in the authority's impoundment lots. The four other employees spoke to the Daily News on condition of anonymity.

Vecchione, 38, said he had been on the job about a month when his supervisor asked him to buy a $100 ticket to the Republican City Committee's fall dinner.

"I told her, "I'm not really a political person.' Then she told me, 'You should understand, this is a patronage job and you have to buy three tickets a year.' At that time, I refused to pay, but two days later another supervisor came up and said I was still under probation. If I didn't buy the tickets they could fire me."
(snip)
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/09142004_nw_parkingauthority.htm

[glitch]

45. Not so much "United" - call it Fascist United States of America

the chant goes like this: F-USA! F-USA! F-USA!

You may be right Dhalgren, but I hope you're not. More and more people wake up every day, no one is choosing to go back to sleep. When was the last time you heard of someone changing their mind for boosh? Their attrition rate must be atrocious or they wouldn't have to go so negative so early.

[nine30]

34. Serves them Right !

Colorado Springs and the surrounding area is among the most conservative places in America...and a bastion of support for the Bush-Cheney campaign.

Don't they all "stand with the President" ?? Go support your president and get sent to a shooting gallery. I would like to see how much support they and their families still have for the "Commander-in-Thief" after they return home in caskets.

Sounds harsh ? But that is the fact.

[nolabels]

38. Ah hum, This one sounds strong, double his taxes

So speaketh, the King bushco


http://209.157.64.200/~rondog/

:puke: (sorry, I often do that after going to a site like the one above)

[krkaufman]

40. It *is* harsh. And it's opinion, not fact.

Some percentage support The Chimp, and others are just doing their duty, that to which they'd committed.

[nine30]

50. Only those who still support the Neanderthal-in-Chief

I greatly honor and appreciate the sacrifices made by our soldiers.

But what confounds and bewilders me are people like one of the mothers interviewed on TV, who was eager to send her other children to serve their "Commander" after the loss of her first son !

Why are Military folks still with the President ? He has got them killed and wounded by the thousands..but to what end ? Just so he can look like the guy who can make the "Tough Choices" for his relection campaign ?

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

44. Colorado Springs

isn't all crazy! I've been seeing more Kerry stickers here lately, not that that is the best indication. There are more of US here than most people think and we're beginning to "come out of the closet" so to speak. Anger has fueled many people here.

Of course, I sport my Kerry Edwards sticker with great pride.

I'm hoping that the local news here will pick up this story, not likely.

[Qanisqineq]

57. local news did pick up the story

I saw it on ABC during the 6 o'clock news and then on NBC at 10:00.

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

59. That's great!

I'm so glad. Didn't have time to watch last night. I hope plenty of people saw it and understand the importance of voting Kerry this time around.

[nine30]

49. Only those who still support the Neanderthal-in-Chief

I greatly honor and appreciate the sacrifices made by our soldiers.

But what confounds and bewilders me are people like one of the mothers interviewed on TV, who was eager to send her other children to serve their "Commander" after the loss of her first son !

Why are Military folks still with the President ? He has got them killed and wounded by the thousands..but to what end ? Just so he can look like the guy who can make the "Tough Choices" for his relection campaign ?

[Qanisqineq]

56. just because they are stationed at Ft. Carson

doesn't mean they are from Colorado Springs. My husband and I are not from Colorado period. And just because he is stationed here doesn't mean he supports Bush. Most of the soldiers my husband knows here won't vote for Bush.

Serves them right? Think again.

[okieinpain]

39. Man that's really strange. I thought all of the soldiers couldn't

wait to go to iraq. hell on our local news that's all you ever see is a soldier on leave saying he can't wait to go back to iraq, and be with the friendly people of iraq. and oh yeah they support their commander in chief, bush.

I'm not joking, that's all you will see on the local news in oklahoma city.

[sybylla]

43. I heard from a friend last night that his son was threatened like this

I don't know all the circumstances but he is stationed in California IIRC. The story goes that they had an assembly and the room was divided between those who would agree to extend their service and those who didn't. The officers were brutal in their attitude toward those who didn't want to reup and the division of the house was to shame rather than to expedite the paperwork. Her son reported that out of over 100 soldiers at the assembly, only a few stuck to their guns and refused to sign, effectively putting them on a fast track to Iraq.

[yardwork]

46. kick

[dave502d]

47. The US military may run out of national guard and reserve troops

http://www.rense.com/general57/res.htm

[JSJ]

48. mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be...troops nt

[Qanisqineq]

53. MY HUSBAND IS GOING THROUGH THIS

I started a thread a few days ago about it. He is in a different unit from the one mentioned in this article. Also, he has two years left on his contract, but they want him to reenlist NOW or go to Iraq this fall (only 6 months after returning). Also, reenlist NOW or he doesn't get that promotion he was supposed to be getting.

[jackieforthedems]

54. I Don't Know About Anybody Else

but I feel a "draft" coming on. I think it's inevitable.

[Raster]

58. One word: Conscription!

[Keirsey]

60. revenge is sweet

CBS/Dan Rather need to pursue this story to the fullest. Investigate how many other bases have been put on notice. Interview some of the affected soldiers. Blur their faces and keep their names out of the news to protect them.

[Raster]

61. absolutely! Show the rest of the U-S-of-A what the good folks in the....

...services are having to deal with. As a country, we have done the services wrong.

[bobbieinok]

62. my brother was in the army in So Korea in the 60s

when he decided not to reenlist, he was almost immediately sent to Vietnam

[struggle4progress]

63. another kick

:kick: