Pentagon wants to make it a court martial offense for troops to use prosti

[Kadie]

Pentagon wants to make it a court martial offense for troops to use prostitutes

PAULINE JELINEK, Associated Press Writer
Tuesday, September 21, 2004


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



(09-21) 14:49 PDT WASHINGTON (AP) --

U.S. troops stationed overseas could face a court martial for patronizing prostitutes under a new regulation drafted by the Pentagon.

The move is part of a Defense Department effort to lessen the possibility that troops will contribute to human trafficking in areas near their overseas bases by seeking the services of women forced into prostitution.

In recent years, "women and girls are being forced into prostitution for a clientele consisting largely of military services members, government contractors and international peacekeepers" in places like South Korea and the Balkans, Rep. Christopher Smith, R-N.J., said Tuesday at a Capitol Hill forum on Pentagon anti-trafficking efforts.

Defense officials have drafted an amendment to the manual on courts martial that would make it an offense for U.S. troops to use the services of prostitutes, said Charles Abell, a Pentagon undersecretary for personnel and readiness.


more...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/09/21/national1749EDT0721.DTL

[truthisfreedom]

1. hmm. i guess no more war games in vegas, huh?

[amber dog democrat]

2. When we had liberty in foreign ports,

We'd head right for the nearest USO or church social for lemonade and cookies.

There was a doughnut waiting in every port. fond memories.

[arwalden]

11. Ya Big Clown...

that's funny! :hi:

-- Allen

[Bandit]

15. I think I met you there.

Wasn't that you that used to sit in the fourth pew back and wasn't that you who won all the ping pong contests at the USO? :shrug: I can't imagine any GI wanting to visit a prostitute. Seems like they are reaching a bit here.

[saskatoon]

70. Right On!

where in the devil are these nuts coming from. If a man can't have sex with a woman, then human nature being what it is, he is going to take the next best thing re human contact and i don't need to be any more explicit.

[mom cat]

3. Now that is a way to boost reenlistment!

:evilgrin: It should really help the falling recruitment too. Actually, it is a good idea. If it is used, it could decimate troop strength, stop the war and usher in a new era of peace and prosperity.:bounce:

[geek tragedy]

4. It's about time.

There is an entire cottage industry of providing sex slaves/trafficked women to US troops in places like Korea. It's really a horrible problem.

[joefree1]

5. Stop sex slavery OK, but stop legal prostitution?

It'll just go underground. Moral policing is a dumb idea pushed by fundies.

Make it legal or get ready for a lot of young bucks to start shooting up the locals or go AWOL. What are young soldiers suppose to do? Play drop the soap in communal showers?
:eyes:


Seating now available in the Smoking Section:
Politics, humor, death and the Devil - http://www.eDiablo.com

On edit: The more I think about it the more this sounds like a stupid idea. I guess they're gonna try for a all Christian army. Ooh boy, enlistment is gonna drop like a rock.

[geek tragedy]

27. It's not about fundy morality, it's about preventing trafficking

and the human rights of poor women.

Apparently you're not aware of the extent of the problem. I suggest you read up on the subject.

[EST]

24. What the heck would be the problem

with flying in a few hundred certified, well adjusted, disease free, clean and talented well...attitude adjusters. Provide free rubbers, a few rubber rooms for the determined experimenters and a reasonable amount of MP-policed privacy for a predetermined time, maybe even charge for it, but only enough to help defray a percentage of the costs. Probably could reduce the number of chaplins and psychologists. Hell, the service providers could be chaplins, psychiatrists, and maybe even...cooks or office personnel. Could save a mint and reduce the amount of inevitable post traumatic stress disorder...

[geek tragedy]

28. We're talking about thousands, and they're not going to be

certified professionals, they're going to be trafficked sex slaves.

I find it unbelievable that some people are advocating the trafficking of human beings in this century.

It comes down to this: MEN ARE NOT ENTITLED TO SEX. If they can't find someone who's willing to have sex with them for free, they need to whack off like thousands of civilians. Can't have prostitutes? Boo fucking hoo.

[EST]

30. Actually, I wasn't thinking just of men...

One of the problems confronting the military right now is the issue of umm-fraternization and the attendant pregnancies and emotional entanglements.

I do apologize if you feel I'm not treating the issue you raise sufficiently seriously, sex slavery is ugly under any circumstances and amounts to rape-which is, in my book, one of the deadly sins and should be punishable by the victim with a 45 caliber slug between the eyes of the perpetrator.

However, I was not addressing the matter of sexual frustration and sex slaves, particularly, but the way to stop the whole matter of sex slavery entirely and most of the attendant mental destruction and moral horror. Sex is not a matter for the intrusion of law, except to define its limits. Thou shalt not have sex with any creature incapable of giving thoughtful, informed, adult consent, which, unfortunately for some, excludes children, animals, and reduced capacity adults (drunk, drugged, captive), but trees, rocks and watermelons are just fine. The penalty for any violation of such would be separation of the offender from his/her weapon, period. No other rules, but strong suggestions, as before-licensing, certified disease free, bonded, trained, etc. Establish the laws to treat sex for what it really is, and all the dumbass problems evaporate.

[geek tragedy]

33. My take

is that "consent" is a very nebulous concept--especially when there is a gross disparity in economic and political power.

At its best, prostitution is the capitalistic exploitation of desperate women who are trapped in the world of prostitution(the vast majority of prostitutes would stop if they could find something else). When they are in a vulnerable position, as most poor immigrants are, I just don't see real consent.

Full disclosure: My fiancee works as an anti-trafficking activist.

[EST]

37. Why, how kool!

And, you know, you are really right. It comes down to the word "prostitute," and the concept of it. Probably, also, the conceptual difference between "prostitute" and "whore" having to do with the desperation and "trapped" nature that can accompany the actual doing. (Whew! Wrapping one's brain around something not usually chewed on can be difficult) I have known only a very few prostitutes and have never availed myself of their services, male or female, so my experience is pretty limited. I do know if we "enlightened" assholes did not set it up as somehow "morally" wrong to do sex for pay, there would not be that ugly word or even mindset, "prostitution." My point comes from knowing a few "whores" who like or even LOVE doing sex, free and for money, drinks, or other reward. As a voluptuous nineteen year old told me once, "I can't he'p it 'cause I love it."

The other end of the spectrum, I suppose, is the lonely, arduous chore of "doin' it" and getting paid, hating the smell, the cheap sleaziness of it all, but having no way out, for whatever reason, or no reason at all. Or maybe the terrified little girl, in fear of her life, unable to confront the groping, grunting dirty, painful experience, hiding away in that frightened tiny corner of her mind, in danger of hiding so tiny, so far away, and never coming back...

I guess my direction of attack is that, in order to eliminate the problem, rather than a one-at-a-time rescue operation, we have to come up with an approach that changes, overwhelms, enlightens or "clears up" the fundamental concept, mindset (I'm kind of searching, here)-maybe transforms the way we hold the experience of "sex" so that it loses all trappings of morals, right or wrong, uh victim/victimizer, power/powerlessness, etc. I think we hook all kinds of crap to sex and that's what makes it possible to have a kind of mental crime called "prostitution." It might be instructional to notice that prostitution is NOT the oldest profession." What is?" You ask. Answer, the ministry...witch doctoring, preachering, interceding with the gods on your behalf, etc. Kinda makes one wonder, does it not?
So, to sum up- If we did not make prostitution some kind of sin, there would not be anything called prostitution-it just wouldn't exist. We hold it in place, we make it real, by making a moral issue of it.
Does this make any sense at all?

[geek tragedy]

55. I agree.

Prostitution isn't wrong because it offends the Bible--it's wrong because it degrades and destroys women. Of course, the Bible-bangers want to ban prostitution as part of their restrictions on society. Such is the risk of coalition politics.

I think the best answer would be to force men into thinking about what exactly is going on. That prostituted woman doesn't think the john is a stud, she doesn't want him, she doesn't think he's sexy, she doesn't even want to be doing this at all. She's ashamed, trapped, and desperate. She's not enjoying it, and a part of her dies every time she has to do this.

Now, if a man can get a boner in that situation, he needs therapy.

Now, there probably are women who do enjoy it and do consider it a profession. But, in balance, they are very rare and the harm that results from trafficking is too great.

[Dhalgren]

42. What effect on the number of rapes in the area

do you think this might contribute to. To take a philosophical/moral stand on what men ought and ought not do is ignoring the painful reality. It is just like with prohibitions of any kind - other avenues will be found. And some of those avenues will be dreadful. Also, the stopping of human trafficking is not the same thing as making prostitution illegal. Human trafficking and prostitution are not synonymous. We should by all means stop human trafficking, but prostitution will continue and can never be stopped; it is simply ridiculous to try.

[geek tragedy]

56. Making it a court martial offense will certainly reduce it, if not

eliminate it.

Enabling trafficking to allegedly prevent rape is not a pro-woman tactic.

I categorically reject "boys will be boys." This is the fucking military--that kind of discipline can keep their dicks in their pants.

[Dhalgren]

83. This isn't a "boys will be boys" issue,

it's a human nature issue. We have soldiers, right now, who rape women - and that is most assuredly against military regs. The idea that you can legislate away prostitution from military bases is stupid; as long as there are armies, there will be soldiers having sex, some women make money from this and I do not condemn them in any way. Now, to say that a woman, for whatever personal reasons of her own, who decides to charge soliders for her favors (and this has been the norm for thousands of years) is the same thing as a woman or child who is enslaved and forced to service anyone her (or his) owners choose, is ridiculous. You may abhor prostitution, I am of two minds about it, but to say that every woman who sells sex is a slave is the same as saying everyone who picked cotton in the US south prior to 1860 was a slave - and that is not true.

[RivetJoint]

88. The problem in Korea

is that Russian women are being forced into prostitution, in part, to feed the demand for the American service men serving in Korea. Eliminate the demand, and there will be no economic reason to provide the service.

[Dhalgren]

89. As long as there are soldiers there

there will be a demand. If you are suggesting withdrawing US forces from South Korea, that is a viable option. But to say that because it is against the law, soldiers won't do it is silly. When I was in the army (admittedly, a long time ago) soldiers broke the law just as often and just as readily as any civilian.

[RivetJoint]

90. Not true

The military has VERY effective ways of reducing demand.

It's pretty damn easy to lock down Osan Air Base if it came to that.

[Dhalgren]

95. You have no concept of morale, at all.

Also, you don't seem to understand what "locking down" a huge military base entails. The brass may be able to do it for specific reasons for a very limited amount of time, but that solution is unworkable.

[RivetJoint]

96. As a former Air Force

Squadron Commander, I understand morale far better than you. The brass can, and will indeed, lock down a base for disciplinary or safety reasons (e.g. Clark AB back in '89) Wholesale violation of the "anti-prostitution" regulation would be tantamount to open revolt in the ranks and the military will NOT allow it. Will they stop ALL military members from frequenting prostitutes? No. But they WILL stop the vast majority of those that do.

[Dhalgren]

97. It'll never happen.

No base commander anywhere would "lock down" an entire base because it was discovered that service men were frequenting prostitutes. And my expreience as King of Bulgaria gives me insight, as well.

[RivetJoint]

98. Sure would

It's easy enought to do, peer pressure works wonders in the military. And they would not have to lock down EVERYONE, just the men for example. BTW we don't have "base commanders" anymore.

[MadHound]

47. Oh, they very well could be pros friend

Ship them in from Nevada, or Amersterdam, or other places where prostitution is legal. Hell, it could become a booming export business for some lucky country(s). And yes, you can get them by the thousands.

And believe it or not, but those civilians are as likely to visit a prostitute as whack off, whether the practice is legal or not. And quite frankly, how is some sad sack soldier who doesn't speak the language supposed to find someone and talk them up for free sex?

I agree with your dislike and disgust with the sexual slavery trade, it should be abolished. But driving prostitution underground with the threat of court-martials is not the way to do it. This has been tried before with US troops and it has always been a disaster. Wars have been won and lost depending on which side was the most devestated with STDs. This is why, in more than one war, the military has set up clean legal whorehouses next to foreign military operations. This way things are clean, safe and above board. And you don't have to resort to trafficking in humans in order to set one or more of these up. There are more than plenty women who would be willing, ready and able, and would be making good money doing so.

[geek tragedy]

57. You're advocating trafficking in your post.

I really don't feel sorry for a soldier who can't get laid overseas. Boo fucking hoo, soldier. Getting laid is not a basic human or constitutional right.

Men are not entitled to sex. And that message needs to be sent.

And legalizing prostitution does not end the underground trade--quite the opposite.

[MadHound]

64. And exactly where do you read that into my post?

Yes I'm advocating for controlled, legalized prostitution. That isn't the same as advocating for trafficking in humans. If that were the case, then you could show me the sex slaves out in Nevada, but gee, they aren't there now are they.

In fact I even mentioned my disgust with the practice of trafficking in humans, and that it should be abolished. So tell me where am I advocating for trafficking in humans?

However, I do find it amusing that you state "Getting laid is not a basic human or constitutional right. " Hate to point this out, but "getting laid" is human nature, both for males and females. The drive for sex and sexual reproduction is one of the strongest drives in human nature, sometimes even superceding the need for food, water, and shelter. Part of the problem with the sex crimes we have in our society is our societies' puritanical nature, which represses natural human sexual expression, thus twisting and deforming it into something evil and immoral. And yet here you are, advocating even further repression. Good show! I hope you'll be there to comfort the victims of rape that will inevitably follow. Or provide the medicines for the soldiers who come down with STDs. Or take care of the unwanted children that will result.

You aren't going to stop a soldier, either male or female, from having sex while in the service, it is simply impossible. This much we should have learned by now. By making it a crime, all you are going to do is drive it underground, and that is where the real tragedies will occurr. Rape, rampant disease, extortion, unwanted pregnancies, ruined careers, these and much more will be the only result of this crackdown. In fact by criminalizing prostitution, you will drive it underground and into the very hands of the human traffickers you so abhor. Rather that we have it above board, legal and open to inspection by all, where all participants enter into these contracts freely and of their own voalition. This is what happens in areas where it is legal. And I ask you, do you see any sexual slaves in the trade out in Nevada? I don't think so, all I see is two people entering freely and legally into a mutually binding contract. And like any legal and open contract, neither person is harmed. But driving the trade underground, all you will do is insure victims, victims on both sides. I hope you can live with that.

[geek tragedy]

66. More "boys will be boys" bullshit--just the same old male supremacism.

MEN DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO A WOMAN'S VAGINA.

The problem is not overwhelming impulses, it is men who don't respect women and see them as vaginas.

Your argument on behalf of men is "You can give it to us, or we can take it from you. Either way, pussy is our god-given right."

[MadHound]

68. I'm not saying that they do, so please, stop yelling

And if you notice in my posts, I address BOTH genders on this issue, stating that it is HUMAN nature, not womans' nature, not mans' nature, but all of our natures OK.

For me this is a health and human welfare issue. And by criminalizing HUMAN nature, all you are going to do is insure that there will be exponetially more victims.

So tell me, in the legal sex trade in Nevada, where are the victims?

[geek tragedy]

71. Your argument is premised upon the idea that

men will rape if they can't get laid.

1. This is false. Rape is about power and domination and entitlement--not about horniness. The problem is not that the men can't have sex--it is that they weren't raised properly. Men need to learn that they aren't entitled to sex.

2. Sexual exploitation is not human nature. It is a feature of the patriarchy and economic disparity. It is the act of one class of human beings exploiting another class. That is wrong.

3. People don't need sex to live. It is not a right nor a necessity. It is an urge, but so is violence.

4. Where are the victims? The message that prostitution sends is that women's bodies are objects to be purchased, and that any man with a credit card is entitled to rent a vagina. That kind of mentality increases the likelihood of rape. It dehumanizes women.

Not knowing the specific individuals in Nevada, one cannot know whether they are being victimized. However, there is always an underground that develops. Sleaze attracts sleaze, and just as high-rent porn indirectly creates a market for nastier, more offensive porn, highly regulated prostitution creates a market for even more brutal and exploitative prostitution.

Do you think that there should be brothels that specialize in rough sex? Sex without condoms? That allow simulated rape or other violent fantasies?

Wherever you draw that line, there will be an underground market that develops for everything on the other side.

[MadHound]

79. No, my premise is that it is a vital component of human nature

To be sexually active. I say, I find it laughable that you state "People don't need sex to live. It is not a right nor a necessity." So what, do kids here via immaculate conception? Please, we all started out as a gleam in our parents eye, and that if humans stopped having sex, we as a species would perish. Human sexual drives are similar to animanl sexual drives, it is a force that propels us to reproduce.

My arguement isn't premised upon "men will rape if they can't get laid", though that certainly is a possibility. My arguement is that both men and women will go to extrordinary lengths to get laid, and if it is legal, they will get laid illegally. They will risk disease, unwanted pregnancy, court-martial, even death to get laid. Rather than put people through those kind of hoops in order to satisfy a basic urge to have sex, make it safe, controlled and legal.

Your arguements are simply ludicrous. You essentially that somehow leglized prostitution will increase rape, yet the statistics in states and countries with legalized prostitution prove you wrong. You think that it demeans women, without actually talking to, or reading interviews of those women. You completely ignore the fact that women are as much sexual beings as men are, and that they too would benefit from legalized prostitution. You simply continue to repeat the Dworkin mantra that has been proven false and bogus twenty years ago by rote. Sorry, but I don't by it friend.

And you really do need to do your historical research in this area. Tell you what, why don't you start with the temple prostitutes in ancient Mesopotamia. You know, the ones who accepted a modest sum for their services, and in turn thought that they were fulfilling the wish of the goddess by giving pleasure and bringing forth life itself. PS, this was a matriarcal society, so your stereotypes won't fit here.

When you get done with your historical research, I suggest that you talk with some prostitutes, ones who have worked legally. Then come back and tell us how exploited they feel. You're in for an eye-opener, I hope you can handle it.

[geek tragedy]

92. Ancient Mesopatamian priestesses? Wrong

We're talking about poor, vulnerable women who are often coerced into becoming prostitutes at an early age.

Do you really think some 19 year old kid from Arkansas is going to know, or care, about the difference between a 100% consenting, professional prostitute (in those rare cases where they meet one) and a poor woman who was forced into the trade at the age of 14? No, they won't.

Trafficking is demand driven. And unless using prostituted women is banned and punished accordingly, US soldiers will serve as a source of that demand.

Again, when you can point to legalization of prostitution as something that reduces trafficking, be my guest.

Prostitution is exploitation and degradation--no matter how many "happy hooker" myths you want to spin.

[psychopomp]

36. Sounds like what the Japanese did in WWII

At first, I believe, it was compensated and mostly Japanese women, but then the policy shifted to forced sexual slavery in the newly conquerered countries (mostly Korean).

Living "comfort women" do not recall that idea working out well at all.

[teryang]

6. Prostitution in S.Korea is completely different from

...that in the Balkans. To lump the two together is absurd. "Contact" with prostitutes is just what exactly? Sounds unconstitutionally vague to me. A Korean bar girl may be gi seng (geisha) or she may be a hooker. (Are the talented and beautiful gi seng at the Seoul Hilton prostitutes?) She may be looking for an American husband for an immigration ticket. She may be an English student looking for a job requiring English. She may be a runaway desperate for support. There are areas of frank sexploitation in Seoul, but they are rarely frequented by soldiers because of the language barrier. The truly poor and desperate girls don't speak English at all. The english speaking bar girls in the Itaewon area are for the most part not really prostitutes although the youngest girls do get sexually exploited because of their inexperience. (Where are the Generals going to find their mistresses?)

The crime would be solicitation of prostitution not contact with prostitutes.

[RivetJoint]

8. There's already an offense on the books for that

for commissioned officers. "Public association with known prostitutes" is punishable under Article 133 of the UCMJ.

[teryang]

81. Conduct unbecoming an officer

Interesting.

[RivetJoint]

87. What's so interesting about it?

I don't follow...

[geek tragedy]

29. You are wrong.

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/1489/context/archive

<snip>
A September 2002 report from the International Organization for Migration said that since the mid-1990s, more than 5,000 women have been trafficked into South Korea for sexual services for United States service personnel.
<snip>

But, as long as men are given their god-given right to have access to a vagina, some male DU'ers are ok with that.

Sickening.

[teryang]

78. Trafficked into S. Korea?

from where? You've got it wrong. The traffic if anything, is out of S.Korea.

You read it in an article, so it must be true. I notice that the article is conclusory and cites no facts at all. I traveled widely throughout Korea for three years and know the people that I'm talking about.

But I won't go as low as to call you sickening, that not's my style.

[RivetJoint]

85. The traffic is INTO South Korea

The women are primarily Russian. They are driving the Korean prostitutes out of business even though their rates are higher.

Maybe you need to travel more...

[geek tragedy]

91. You want more sources?

http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-20030617a2.html

<snip>
South Korea is a source, transit and destination country for women trafficked for sexual exploitation. Victims come mainly from Southeast Asia (particularly the Philippines and Thailand), China, Russia, Uzbekistan, and Kazakhstan. Women often enter South Korea on "entertainer" visas and are forced to work as prostitutes in bars and private clubs. South Korean women are also trafficked abroad to Japan and the United States.
<snip>

http://www.csce.gov/press_csce.cfm?press_id=386

<snip>
In March 2002, Cleveland, Ohio’s Fox Affiliate WJW-TV aired an investigative report indicating that U.S. troops in South Korea were patronizing bars and other establishments where women from the Philippines and former Soviet states were trafficked and forced to prostitute themselves.



In response to the report, Helsinki Commission Chairman Rep. Christopher H. Smith (R-NJ) and a dozen other Members of Congress wrote to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld requesting an immediate investigation into the veracity of the allegations as well as the appropriateness of the U.S. military's policies and response to prostitution and human trafficking worldwide.



Department of Defense Inspector General Joseph Schmitz subsequently conducted investigations in South Korea, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Kosovo and issued two reports assessing the U.S. military's policies and practices with respect to activity that might fuel sex trafficking and prostitution. The reports contain numerous recommendations for action by DoD, including recommending a new department policy on trafficking.
<snip>

The best way to get rid of sex trafficking is to decrease demand. And the only way to decrese demand is to penalize those who would pay for the right to use a woman's body.

[teryang]

105. The second link was informative

...but didn't attribute the cause of the problem to American Armed Forces.

The first link alludes to the problem but again the evidence is lacking. A secondary source references a secondary source.

The truth is that trafficking in women for sexual purposes is a Korean problem (organized crime) not one brought there by American troops.

I'm not saying that sexual exploitation by Americans doesn't go on, but a visit to the non-American fleshpots in Seoul shows that the problem is indigenous not American induced. Korean and Japanese businessmen in Korea do more to promote prostitution in its worse sense than American troops. Of course most outside observers are incapable of observing the difference between a strip club where sexual favors may dispensed to the girls' favored prospects and a whore house. A lot of GIs, civilian employees and contractors favor these places with absolutely no interest in getting laid, or getting sick there from STDs.

Many Korean women in the business emigrate to conduct sex business more profitably elsewhere. Nobody kidnapped them or trafficked in them.

Most unaccompanied American troops are looking for relationships with women period. To assume that the social interaction revolves around or promotes prostitution to the morally repugnant scale suggested (human trafficking) really is an exaggereation of what is going on. There are financial relationships assumed between club owners and young runaways or girls delivered into their hands that border on defacto slavery. Each of these girls who come into contact with American soldiers are more likely than not to be delivered an exit visa to the big PX. Hookers in chungyungni, or other whore markets for the natives, have no such future.

The problem is a whole lot more complex than the categorical simplications suggested by you. The truth is that the American contribution to this problem, at least in Seoul, where the problem of prostitution is endemic, is deminimis. Again it is our hubris that leads us to believe that it is our policies which are giving shape to the nature of another society.

[psychopomp]

38. Just don't go to the two-poled barbershops for a haircut

I don't know if what goes on at "Hooker Hill" in Itaewon is just that or not, but from all effects the place is a seedy dump where that kind of thing probably happens on a regular basis.

[teryang]

82. Itaewon is one of the most popular tourists spots

...in Korea. Certainly news to me that it is a seedy dump. You probably couldn't buy one square foot of real estate in Itaewon with a mortgage. The area is so valuable that eyesore of the American installations around it are being forced out.

[EST]

7. Another dickhead solution looking for a problem

___________

[RivetJoint]

9. It IS a problem

Hang out in Son Tang City and you'll see the issue. It was MUCH worse at Clark AB a few decades ago.

[EST]

13. The problem is not prostitution, however.

Prostitutes deliver far more of honest value for the dollar than do politicians, or even plumbers... The solution is to abandon the idiocy of forcing the girls to be shadowy, organized crime associates, social outcasts, etc.
Be honest about the issue, license them, clean them up, provide health care and regular checkups, insist on papers and chain of custody (in a manner of speaking), eliminate graft, corruption and bribes. Treat them as the trusted providers of a valuable service instead of a dirty, unspeakable, criminal endeavor and there is no longer such a problem. Just like the arrogant, stupid and foolish "drug wars," the real problem is society's pretending that real people don't stink, shit, fuck or get high. We need to grow up, mentally, and this terrible set of circumstances the world has been thrown into may serve as the catalyst, or at least the recovery may, for the social growth necessary!

[RivetJoint]

14. Very valid point

The problem is the FORCED prostitution. Now, since this is occuring overseas, the best the military can do to curb the problem is reduce the demand.

[EST]

17. Not to appear abstruse, but

can you point to any occasion wherein banning a product or activity has actually, for a reasonable length of time, reduced or eliminated demand?
The main ones in this country that come to mind immediately are prostitution, alcohol, and recreational drugs. The banning of these products and services, even when accompanied by inordinately severe prison sentences, jack booted thug break ins of private residences at ungodly hours of the morning, murders both legal and otherwise, and even property forfeiture have had no real positive effect, but the negative effects have been devastating.

Those effects are: turning otherwise normal citizens into criminals, denial of re-acculturating benefits including behavior modification, driving the cost of those products or services up to the point where they attract the attention of high ranking criminals and gangs, providing lawyers and prison service suppliers with entirely too much business, encouraging forced behavior, especially of children and young adults because of their lack of sophistication and legal status, broken homes, broken families, divorce, murder, theft, robbery; the list can go on and on. This feedback mechanism is always in effect. Even in small families, forbidding certain behavior only works some of the time and in the presence of fear, not love.

What is the solution? The least expensive and most effective solution, always and always, is legalization and the other things we discussed plus love, thoughtful understanding, tolerance, patience, all the things that liberal, progressive individuals stand for, work for, and measure themselves by.

The threat of courts martial may discourage a few, for a short time, but will encourage others with the thoughts of forbidden pleasure or the other things we've mentioned. In the long term, it will not work.

[RivetJoint]

84. Sort of like how drug testing in the military

did not reduce drug use in the military, right?

[spooked]

23. Blow up people? Go for it! Make love to them? Absolutely Not!

n/t

[VelmaD]

31. Do you really not grasp the difference between...

"making love" and what goes on between a prostitute and customer? :eyes:

[psychopomp]

39. "Eliminate corruption"

Fat chance with prostitution. I don't know of a single country where prostitution is not dominated by organized crime. I don't know if the Dutch are an exception or not, though.

[saskatoon]

72. dickhead problem

you are so right. Who on here has read "All Quiet On the Western Front" re WW2. The army handled the situation with a commonplace solution, the soldiers were releived of the sexual needs, were protected re disease and it made a hell of a lot of sense to me. READ the book!

[saskatoon]

73. I spoke re wrong war. This was in regards to WW1

Do read the book. It is a classic.

[arwalden]

10. Okay To Kill 'Em... But Don't Fuck 'Em

[0007]

12. I think we're getting winked off! Maybe to make the moms feel good

about sonny & junior practicing abstinence.

Those dirty buggers!!

[emad]

103. Never mind sonny & junior, it's the old man's dipstick that

is under screwtiny.......

[sofa king]

16. It's a huge intelligence liability, too.

The time-honored "honey trap":

http://www.randomhouse.com/features/spybook/spy/970121.html

The thing is, making prostitute use a court martial offense actually increases the effectiveness of the honey trap.

Despite the edict, American soldiers will continue to visit prostitutes. Some of those prostitutes will be part of foreign intelligence operations. The soldiers will then be confronted with the threat of losing their careers to exposure. Some of them will hand over intelligence to a potential enemy rather than be excommunicated from the military.

This is exactly why homosexuals were once locked out of the intelligence community. When homosexuality was a crime, being a homosexual was a severe liability, because it was a soft spot which could be exploited by an enemy.

Once it became more socially acceptable, homosexuality became an instant positive factor for the United States, because not only were potentially excellent operatives protected from exploitation, but the threat of exploitation against other operatives from less understanding nations became an option.

Just goes to show that if you think the only book you need to know is the Bible, sooner or later someone's going to beat you unconscious with a copy of Machiavelli.

[opihimoimoi]

18. Them Bean Counters got us by our Backs, our Wallets, our Minds, and now,

our Dicks too? Damn,,,,soon they be outlawing BJs.

[0007]

20. I got a hot chick called Blinky. Extra long eye lashes imported

from Mexico. The back room boys call her, "O' Spanish Eyes"

[opihimoimoi]

49. Uuuuuuuu, a Double Treat for the price of One... Luv that...:o)

[EST]

25. Nuttin' new under the sun.

If you are a rethug, BJs are illegal...for dems.

[opihimoimoi]

48. Thats 'cause them Pubs Wives refuse to put.. "What? ......Where?"

So they made it illegal... but then all they can get is the Sports Illustrated....haha...no PentHouse for them Pubs

[Bandit]

19. When did logic ever apply to the military

You are using logic and that is not allowed in the Bush* administration. But your logic is right spot on.

[sofa king]

34. Heh. You're so right.

I think a lot of these bullshit ideas come from high-level brass who honestly believe that what they say goes, even behind their backs.

I still love that graphic, by the way. I need to find one of those bus posters.

[Bandit]

58. You can certainly have it if you like

Just right click on the image and go to properties. Copy the url and paste it in your sig line or where ever you wish

[EST]

21. Superb point-making

Wasn't it only a few years ago when da big dawg got himself caught up in a Rovian honey-trap doing the Lewinsky shuffle? Almost brought down a presidency and for sure crippled the anti fascist resistance for such a long time that we are only now recovering and hoping it's not too late.

[Career Prole]

22. To update: Desertion rates an honorable discharge.

Buying sex gets your ass court-martialled.

I'd better make a note of that because it seems counter-intuitive. You might as well just toss your uniform in the dumpster and go home to your SO if that's the case.
What say YOU, shrub?

[LifeDuringWartime]

51. no way

that just doesnt seem right. desertion really gets you an honorable discharge?

[Career Prole]

54. It does if Daddy owns enough people in Texas n/t

[jokerman93]

26. Onward Christian Soldiers

For PR purposes only...

[TahitiNut]

32. That's another way to lower recruitments!

:evilgrin: In the mind of the majority of guys who join up is the prospect of global nookie. Prostitution is second only to liquor as part of the 'trickle down economy' adjacent to military bases all over the world.

The hotels of Saigon were extremely popular with American troops. Saigon had a 10pm curfew - and hotel nightclubs that attracted the young, nubile Vietnamese women. After 10pm, their choices were to sleep on the floor in the corridors or to share a GI's bed. Sound bizarre? I witnessed it firsthand with the small group I was with en route to Hawaii for TDY, staying overnight before our MAC flight in the morning. As a (stupid?) married man, I didn't partake - but a couple of the guys did. Why? Well, I still remember how astonishingly beautiful many/most of these young women were. Really. Stunning. Jaw-droppingly.

[rene moon]

35. I cant believe the attitudes of the men here

Now hear this: Men are not entitled to sex! You are not. If you dont have a partner, then too bad.

Women being used a sex slaves is bad but the tone here on this thread is despicable.

[Jack_DeLeon]

53. there is nothing wrong with paying for sex...

its legal to buy things, its legal to have sex. IMO there is nothing wrong with buying sex.

prostitutes != slaves

[geek tragedy]

63. Is it legal to buy human kidneys?

Didn't think so.

[Jack_DeLeon]

76. Sure it is....

hospitals and doctors do it all the time.

[geek tragedy]

94. Wow.

I would love a link on that--saying that organ trafficking is legal in the US.

[progdonkey]

80. No, but that's completely irrelevant

What does the selling of organs have to do with prostitution? If a person offers you a kidney, you have to ask, "Where in hell did you get that?" Because the acquisition of a kidney would require major surgery or simple murder and it's highly unlikely that a black market kidney salesmen acquired the kidney through proper surgery on the original "donor," one would have to come to the conclusion that the kidney was acquired through illicit means, if not full-fledged murder.

On the other hand, what is a prostitute offering a potential customer? Her body; to liken it to a removed kidney is absurd at best.

Question for you: which of the following is prostitution and deserves to be illegal?

Option A: Mr. Guy meets a girl at a bar and starts up a conversation. He starts laying down all of the usual lines, while simultaneously getting the girl liquored up (total bill $25). He asks the now-inebriated girl invites Mr. Guy to her room and they go have sex (unprotected because she's too drunk to insist on being safe). The next morning, she wakes up to find that Mr. Guy is gone, having left a note promising to call her some time (which, of course, he doesn't do). The girl becomes filled with regret and shame that she allowed herself to be used like that.

Option B: Mr. Guy meets a prostitute in a bar and offers her $100 for sex. They go have protected sex (this girl's a sober professional, after all), and they part ways happily: Mr. Guy got his sex and the prostitute got her $100. She doesn't feel exploited, since she knew exactly what the relationship (or lack thereof) between her and Mr. Guy was.

Okay, our Puritanical Law system would tell us that Option B is worse; so bad that both Mr. Guy and the prostitute belong in jail. To me, however, Option A sounds far worse, as Mr. Guy spent less money on the girl, who subsequently felt ashamed of herself.

I'm sure your response is that the prostitute may actual feel exploited. If that were the case, it would be due to her having an abusive pimp or her own specific personal problems--of which her prostitution is a symptom, not a cause.

Lastly, why are prostitutes themselves arrested? If the women are somehow being exploited, why are they criminals? It would be akin to arresting a woman for being raped.

[geek tragedy]

93. Scenario A may be rape, depending on how drunk the woman is.

Again, you are assuming that a prostitute is going to be happy doing her work. The vast majority aren't.

Society has created this myth of the glamorous, sophisticated, nymphomaniac prostitute. Mostly to enable men in their exploitation of women.

[progdonkey]

100. what society is that?

Are you talking about American society? Since when are prostitutes in the US seen as "glamorous" or "sophisticated"? The only image of prostitutes that is ever presented in this country is that of drug-addicted whores brimming with disease.

Also, Scenario A would not be rape, regardless of how drunk the girl is. If she got drunk through her own poor choices, the guy would not be able to be charged with rape. Yes, he's a pig, but she chose to get drunk; getting yourself drunk or high is neither an excuse for criminal behavior nor grounds to claim victimhood.

Now, if the guy slipped something into her drink, of course that would be rape, but she chose to drink and she would need to live with the consequences of her poor decision.

I'm not assuming that the prostitute would neccessarily be happy doing her work, but if she were in fact unhappy, it would be indicative of personal problems of which her prostitution is simply an outward expression. It's not that she prostitutes herself that makes her unhappy; it's that she finds herself in a position (drugs, current or former abuse, etc.) where she feels forced to prostitute herself.

Instead of jailing the guy who might take advantage of her situtation, why not go after the person or persons who put her in that position in the first place? Would you jail a guy for rape because he met a woman, who then had sex with him to get back at her boyfriend? People have sex for all kinds of personal reasons; who are you to say, "Sorry, that reason isn't good enough. Off to the slammer with you"?

Where are your figures that allow you to say "the vast majority aren't "?

You still haven't answered why the prostitute is considered a criminal and arrested. If this is all just a means to exploit women, why are the victims jailed along with their supposed victimizers?

Lastly, I'm just dealing with the misguided criminalization of prostitution in its simplest form: paying money for sex. Situations where a third party (such as a pimp or madame) takes in a cut of the money are much more serious; not because of the prostitution itself, but because of the inherent immorality of living off another's work--especially when the worker feels forced to do work he/she would rather not do.

[RivetJoint]

101. Sorry, you're wrong

Scenario A IS rape if the woman was too drunk to consent. It doesn't matter if she CHOSE to get drunk, or if the guy GOT her drunk. Courts in the US have held that if she was too drunk to give consent, it is rape. Period.

[geek tragedy]

102. Prostitutes should not be arrested, imo.

The problem is demand, not supply.

And if someone is too drunk/intoxicated to consent, it is indeed rape. That's the law.

[geek tragedy]

62. Amen.

Prostitution is exploitation of women--period. If you rent a woman, you are directly exploiting her.

[MadHound]

65. Tell you what friend

Why don't you go ask the legal prostitutes, both here in the US and abroad in cities like Amersterdam, whether or not they're being exploited. You can probably still hear them laugh from behind that large stack of money they're carrying to the bank.

Or if that is too much work for you, go research prostitution in the Old West, back when it was legal, and find out whether those women were being exploited.

Look, I agree with you that the traffic in sexual slaves is a huge world-wide problem. But driving prostitution underground will not solve the problem, it will only hide it from view. Legal, above board prostitution will insure that the only women or men participating are willing ones. This is a lesson that we have learned over and over, hopefully we will learn it permanently this time.

[geek tragedy]

67. Oh please.

The vast majority of prostituted women would do something else if they could. Give a woman a choice between starvation and prostitution, they'll choose the lesser of two evils. But prostitution remains an evil.

The bottom line here is that men are asserting a right to exploit women.

Read about the wonderful success Germany has had in reducing trafficking since they legalized prostitution:

http://www.catwinternational.org/fb/Germany.html

[MadHound]

69. Oh please, have you ever sat down and talked with a prostitute?

I have, and know, it wasn't because I hired them(and just for your own instant gratification, I've never hired a prostitute), I've just been in places and spaces to get to know them(and you would be suprised at just how many women have hooked on the side).

These women who were participating in legal prostitution didn't feel exploited, to the contrary, many of them felt bad, that they were, in a way, exploiting their johns. So much money for such a simple act, as one of them put it. And know, they didn't get into the trade because they were starving and had no other option, they got into it because they made damn good money. And they figured hell, why should they give it away when they could get paid. And besides, it was FUN. Yes, that's right, FUN. They got to go out to the most elegant places, have a great time, and have sex that ranged from mediocre to great, and they were in control the whole damn time.

This is the same motivation that has gotten women into the legalized sex trade for centuries now, I would suggest you go do some historical research to find out. Say on the Old West sex trade, or the sex trade in Elizabeathan London. It might just open your eyes.

[geek tragedy]

75. Oh Jesus what a load of bullshit.

Oh yes, women in the old West and Elizabethan England had such a wide variety of options, and they chose prositution because they were such a bunch of nymphos that they liked nothing more than to let some smelly, disgusting men use them for their own pleasure. Because selling their bodies to random men is FUN!

"I could have been a doctor or a pharmacist or a school teacher, but just really love having cowboys who haven't showered in a week use me for their own pleasure. So much fun!"



:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Roy Robertson]

99. A friend of mine put himself through college by being a prostitute

out on "The Block" in Boston, back in the early 70s.

He said there were times when he had to "close his eyes and think of England", but basically he enjoyed it. It was a decision he made for himself, based mostly on his economic situation (his father had thrown him out of the house for being gay, he had zero money, and his college tuition was VERY expensive) but also partly on ego gratification (he was a good-looking guy and enjoyed having his looks appreciated by others) and some degree of sheer male horniness, (which some folks here will understand immediately, and some others will not...)

But whatever you think of his decision, if you layed a lot of this overheated marxist rhetoric on him, or tried to tell him he was degrading himself, or his consent wasn't valid because of the economic disparity, he'd just smile, and try to get you to calm down, relax... take a deep breath... aahh... there... better now?

[One_Life_To_Give]

40. Well I'll be a 'Son of a Gun'

What moron came up with this idea!
One who flunked history I suppose.

[brooklynite]

41. Not wanting to take sides on the issue...

but would it also mean that those posted at Area 51 (assuming it existed) can't pop down to one of the bordellos in counties where its legal?

[Swamp Rat]

43. I want to make it a court martial offense for the Pentagon to send troops

to illegally invade a country and kill its citizens.

[PatGund]

44. The thing I don't understand.....

....is what happens when the personnel happen to be stationed somewhere where prositution is legal and regulated?? If someone's stationed at a base in Nevada, they can't go to the Chicken Ranch or somesuch? If someone's stationed in Europe, they can't go to Copenhagen or the like??

I certainly don't support "sex slavery" or the like, and I think that personnel should be busted if they engage in prositution in places where it's illegal and/or unregulated. But if they're in a place where it's legal, I see no reason why they should be forced to abstain.

And that goes for male and female personnel as well.

[Ilsa]

45. But they don't want to prosecute for rape, huh?

Why don't they concentrate on prosecuting for real crimes? Women (including women soldiers) are being victimized in Iraq and elsewhere, and they want to prosecute between consenting adults when one gets paid? Does dinner and a movie count?

[Ilsa]

46. Dupe. Sorry. It took forever to post.

[progressivebydesign]

50. I"m torn on this...

Unfortunately, this stuff does create a market for underage and forced prostitution, supply and demand. If the demand goes, would the supply disappear? I'm not a fundamentalist, nor prude, or anything like that.. BUT the issue of minor girls forced into prostitution overseas is a MAJOR problem. I just don't know if this would stop the demand for prostitutes.

[Jack_DeLeon]

52. I'm against this...

[David Zephyr]

59. Equality Under The Law. Gays Can't Be "Sexually Active" While in Service.

I think that what's sauce for the goose it sauce for the gander.

As ridiculous as this move by the Defense Department is and as wicked as this Republican Congressman Smith from New Jersey may be, it actually begins to bring some fairness to the ridiculous rule that allows gay men and women to serve and die for their country as long as they are not active sexually during their years in the service.

So, I'm all for this because it will force the old farts that are making these cruel rules for young people to abide by, young people who are giving their lives for us, to deal with the stupidity and hypocrisy behind their thinking.

[RivetJoint]

86. Apples and Oranges

Heteros can still have sex with each other...

[KansDem]

60. I guess Neil Bush won't be serving in the military any time soon...

At least not until prostitutes can control themselves from wanting to give him freebies all the time...

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/black-sheep/neil-bush/

But then, if it's free, is it really prositution...???

[MrSlayer]

61. This is a great way out for a lot of people.

Particularly if there is a draft you can't avoid. I'd be banging the "Me so Horny" chick on the General's desk.

[saskatoon]

74. Just because they can't cut the mustard, they don't want anyone else to.

[Jack_DeLeon]

77. It seems like the problem is...

slavery, not prostution.

Yes some slaves are forced to become prostitutes, but not all prostitutes are slaves.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

104. I think they tried that in WWI

Without much success.

Most of the legal brothels in Germany cater to American GIs. When I was in Frankfurt 17 years ago the red light district was close to the Hautbahnhof, the main train station. Because I had time to kill till the train I was to take arrived I took a walking tour through there. I didn't partake in any of it but I was amazed how many of the signs on the brothels were in English.

[Logansquare]

106. If they want it to stop, they'd better make war illegal n/t