Troops Battle Militants in Iraq; 13 Dead (A War Crime Indeed)

[Nambe]

Middle East - AP

Militants pounded central Baghdad on Sunday with one of their most intense mortar barrages ever, targeting the Green Zone and destroying a U.S. vehicle along a major street. At least 13 people were killed and 55 wounded when a U.S. helicopter fired at crowds around the vehicle, Iraqi officials said. ..

Insurgents opened fire on the Americans, destroying a Bradley fighting vehicle on Haifa street, a major avenue in the center of the capital. The four U.S. crewmen escaped with minor injuries, U.S. officials said.

As the Americans withdrew, jubilant fighters and young boys swarmed around the burning vehicle, dancing and cheering. Several young men placed a black banner of al-Qaida-backed Tawhid and Jihad, led by terror mastermind Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, in the barrel of the Bradley's main gun.

Suddenly, a U.S. Apache attack helicopter swooped down and opened fire around the Bradley. Witnesses said several people, including a correspondent for the Arabic language Al-Arabiya television station, were killed. ..

Need A Hug Go To The Store!

[Olive]

1. Maj. Phil Smith, a spokesman for the 1st Cavalry Division, said ...

(...)
Maj. Phil Smith, a spokesman for the 1st Cavalry Division, said the helicopter fired to try to destroy the burning vehicle "for the safety of the people around it."
(...)

[NeoConsSuck]

2. I read that also and it made me sick..

and if it made me sick, I'm sure the average Iraqi is sickened by this also.

Ah, payback is a bitch, as the saying goes.. It's too bad some American kid is eventually going to have to pay for Smith's words.

[slojim240]

3. We ARE the EVIL we say we abhor!

No question about it. It puzzles me that many people allow themselves to believe that we didn't commit atrocities in Viet Nam.

[iam]

71. Lissen folks!

We aren't doing ourselves any favors by accusing the entire US of war crimes. Conservatism is responsible for this madness, conservatives are committing these murders. Every time someone who considers themselves a liberal insults everyone like this, conservatism wins. EVERY WORD COUNTS!

[Radius]

4. Devils Advocate..

vehicle containing weapons is damaged and overrun by hostiles. To prevent scavanging of ordinance to later be used in IEDs vehicle is blown in place.

snip>
A Bradley fighting vehicle rushing down Haifa Street to assist a U.S. patrol was disabled by a car bomb about 6:50 a.m., the U.S. military said. The four U.S. crewmen escaped with minor injuries but came under small arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire and called for air support, U.S. officials said.


Jubilant fighters (note not grandmothers and nuns) and young boys swarmed around the burning vehicle, dancing, cheering and hurling firebombs. Several young men placed a black banner of Tawhid and Jihad in the barrel of the Bradley's main gun.


Suddenly, a U.S. Kiowa helicopter fired on the Bradley, trying to destroy it to prevent insurgents from looting weapons and ammunition on board, the military said.


Ap reports them as combatants.

[NNN0LHI]

5. I suspect you may be forgetting who's country America is occupying

The USSR didn't have nothing on the maniacs currently calling our military shots. Know what I mean?

Don

[Radius]

6. In November,

This could become our war. People will still be killed and we have comitted to a 4 year term. It is to bad the war has become political because people will be very disappointed when it continues. Both parties are comitted.

Just saying blowing up armed guys stripping a vehicle will be SOP in the future.

Politics and war mix poorly. Our guys on the ground are my primary concern.

[bemildred]

8. The fact that the two parties are committed does not make it "our war".

It makes it "their war", and one hopes they pay the price if
they do not wise up, and soon.

[Radius]

17. What price?

Both candidates support the war, either way it is a reality.

If kerry is elected the responsibility for running the war will be his. He has stated his plan. Either way it is our war, americans are dying, my concern is with the people over there doing their job. What is the problem with killing the guys who knocked out a bradley?

The sooner they come home the better, but they are americans and the are not the enemy.

[bemildred]

32. A very high price, already, and going higher all the time.

And down a rathole, all of it, too.

Nobody said it was not real. The war is very real, the justifications
however are all 100% bullshit.

If Kerry is elected it will be up to him to decide what it is his
reponsibility to do. One hopes he is bright enough to get the troops
out of there in the most expeditious possible way, as there is nothing
good they can do there.

It is not my war, it is George Bush's war, and it will only become
Kerry's war if he tries to carry it forward instead of terminating
it promptly, and nobody is going to ever make it my war.

The notion that there is something inevitable about it is horseshit.

My concern is with getting our troops home where they belong and
out of harms way immediately. Anybody that is not for that does
not represent me.

It seems highly unlikely to me that the guys who knocked out the
Bradley were dancing around it afterwards, but whatever. I have
no particular problem with taking out the guys who knocked out the
Bradley in a context where we are trying to expeditiously get our
troops out or their country, as long as we aim well. Random missiles
into civilian crowds are always a no-no in my book.

[saigon68]

14. He has no idea

Its a waste of time ---Don

[Pastiche423]

21. Is carlos back?

[Ohio rules]

7. More proof

Not a tank

http://arabic.cnn.com/

The devil is in the details

[Radius]

10. Bradley

fighting vehicle. Probably blasted with a hellfire missile shortly after that picture was taken. Has ordinance that can be used for IEDs so we blew it in place.

[jmcgowanjm]

12. Probably not, that's why we're still firing into crowd

And the Iraqi's don't need anymore IED material.
They've got plenty thanks.

[Radius]

15. They knocked out the vehicle,

Then they went to celebrate, its in the article. They got killed. Who knows what they have, you their quartermaster? Either way they are combatants and got killed.

It is all in the article.

[jmcgowanjm]

65. I know that Iraq has 50000 Republican Guards not accounted for

I know that they have more Grad, Katyusha, and other
spin stabilized rockets than we know what to do with.

I know that the Resistance has more RPG7's than sheep.

I know that they can take out an M1A1 Abrams
w/ an RPG7, the least effective RPG in their
arsenal. Hint-aim at the carriage front and rear.

I know this is BullShit:
The U.S. military said two of its helicopters had opened fire
after coming under attack from the crowd.

"As the helicopters flew over the burning Bradley they
received small arms fire from the insurgents in vicinity of
the vehicle," a military statement said. "Clearly within the rules
of engagement, the helicopters returned fire destroying
some anti-Iraqi forces in the vicinity of the
Bradley."

Earlier, the U.S. military had said a helicopter destroyed
the vehicle "to prevent looting and harm to the Iraqi people"
after four U.S. soldiers were lightly wounded in the attack on
the Bradley.

I know these 4 soldiers were more than slightly WIA'd.

Yes, I guess I could be an Iraqi Resistance Quartermaster,
because I've been following Russian/Jane's Intel on Iraq's
arsenal/capabilities for over 14 years now.

Anything else?

[jmcgowanjm]

11. Yes, you're right, Ohio rules

This would be a tank:

[jmcgowanjm]

9. Reuters, Palestinian, Al Arabya reporters killed/injured

Let's get right to it, Radius.

All the casualties were civilians, the journalist said, adding
that bodies were left in the street for more than half an
hour before an ambulance was able to remove
them.

This is a war crime.

http://english.aljazeera.net/english/Templates/GeneralArticle.aspx?NRORIGINALURL=%2fNR%2fexeres%2fB13F5DC7-E9A9-4D86-8C05-235CBF641973%2ehtm&FRAMELESS=false&NRNODEGUID=%7bB13F5DC7-E9A9-4D86-8C05-235CBF641973%7d&NRCACHEHINT=Guest

The Bradley was targeted (it's still intact), because it
would send the wrong message to the world.

Message: US has no control over events in Iraq.

[Radius]

13. ap story.

Snip
A Bradley fighting vehicle rushing down Haifa Street to assist a U.S. patrol was disabled by a car bomb about 6:50 a.m., the U.S. military said. The four U.S. crewmen escaped with minor injuries but came under small arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire and called for air support, U.S. officials said.


Jubilant fighters and young boys swarmed around the burning vehicle, dancing, cheering and hurling firebombs. Several young men placed a black banner of Tawhid and Jihad in the barrel of the Bradley's main gun.


Suddenly, a U.S. Kiowa helicopter fired on the Bradley, trying to destroy it to prevent insurgents from looting weapons and ammunition on board, the military said.
/Snip

Jubilant fighters missed their chance for a photo op. We blew it in place so the explosives could not be used to blow our guys up.

Jubilant fighters are fair game. They were combatants, they knocked out a vehicle, and got killed stripping it.

[saigon68]

16. Lets Kill them all

And let God sort them out </Sarcasm>

[Radius]

19. I don't write for the AP

if they killed an anti tank crew what is the problem. They are fighting in a war. The ap stated the situation. From what AP said they are combatants.

BTW were you in Vietnam in 68?

This is a narrow issue, not supporting the war, etc etc.

But what is the problem with killing "jubilant fighters"? How is that a war crime?

[saigon68]

22. Never said it was a war crime

was only commenting on the massive killing

I was a combat photographer in 1968

[Radius]

26. Interesting

hell of a place to be. My father was there in 69, with the 101.

Requiem was pretty amazing.
Freelance or with an agency?
Just curious you are welcome to send me mail or not answer.

[saigon68]

28. From Requiem

CHARLES RICHARD EGGLESTON
Born, November 1945 in Gouverneur, NY, U.S.A
Died: May 6, 1968 in Saigon, Vietnam
When Charlie Eggleston's stint as a U.S. Navy journalist ended in 1966, he had collected two bronze stars for valor and other military awards for such efforts as climbing down a helicopter hoist to rescue a U.S. Pilot in North Vietnam and serving with a SVN junk-fleet patrol. Going home to Gouverneur, New York, didn't hold the same appeal as working for UPI in Saigon, so he stayed on. He was wounded twice in the 1968 Tet offensive. He died in Rocket Alley near Saigon's Tan Son Nhut Airport, leaving his estate to Vietnamese orphans.

I was there in the cemetery when he was killed

http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue9711/req28e.htm

[Radius]

31. Amazing story

The sooner this is over the better. I think there were terrible mistakes made up the chain of command.

I come from a military family, although I am not a vet, and can not consider our people the enemy. We are not perfect but not evil. I feel for our guys on the ground.

The sooner we get our people home safely the better. That gets mistaken for pro war but I just can't judge a situation from thousands of miles away. There is always more to a story.

Thanks for sharing your story.

[saigon68]

35. A lot of " troop supporters " are mistaken about me

When I point out that Lynndie and her band of Thugs are hoodlums, they think I am anti-military.

As a Member of the VVA and VFW nothing could be further from the truth. I blame the situation at ABU GHRAIB on the officers and NCOs who apparently had non existent leadership qualities and skills to display and impart to the E-3s E-4s and E-5s-- who actually were supposed to be doing the job of maintaining order.

The military is far from perfect and I agree with you ---we cannot shoot the messenger. The average 19 and 20 year old kid in this mess needs our unconditional support, those in military leadership positions who negligently allowed Abu Ghraib War Crimes to be committed, need to be held accountable.

[Radius]

37. Exactly

Those guys and gals did not put themselves in Iraq and if there is a question about the war it should be dealt with at a political level. Troops are not politicians and do not start wars, they should not be scapegoated for political actions.

The US troop is not the bad guy. Abu Graib was horrible but responsibility needs to be placed at at least the brigade level, as well as with the perps. If the intel community had a hand in it they should pay. Those idiots did more to dishonor the US military than anyone in recent memory.

As a whole the US military is composed of decent people trying to do their job and not get killed.

I do not support the war, it was at best poorly planned, but I can't put blame on the military for doing its job.

[jmcgowanjm]

18. Jubilant fighters are fair game-they were boys playing w/ toys

And you know it. You've seen the scenes repeatedly.
Playing w/ the helmets of dead US.

The Resistance left the scene long before.

How long does it take Reuters et al to reach the scene.


Witnesses said several people milling around the
Bradley, including a correspondent for the Arabic
language Al-Arabiya television station, were killed. An
Iraqi cameraman working for the Reuters news agency was
also injured.

Al-Arabiya broadcast videotape showing its employee,
Mazen al-Tumeizi, preparing to make a report. Suddenly,
an explosion occurred behind him. He doubled-over and
began screaming "I'm dying, I'm dying" and colleagues tried
to help him.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5949556/

If you think that this helo strike killed the people
who knocked this Bradley out, and killed the USsoldiers
inside (to be revealed when ResistanceNews comes
out) you're mistaken.

We just enlarged the # of Iraqis who hate us, and have
labeled anything US fair game.

[Radius]

20. I don't write for the AP, Jubilant Fighters was their quote(NT)

[barb162]

24. this is the way I saw the story being reported also and

the bradley was blown up so the weapons in it couldn't be used against the US.

[Radius]

27. AP

reported that we blew the bradley in place to prevent its ordinance from being used. It was disabled.

AP's account defines them as combatants.

[Barrett808]

29. "Combatants." Right. This kid was a combatant?

Sun Sep 12, 1:01 PM ET
An unidentified father carries his injured child to a hospital in Baghdad, Iraq (news - web sites), Sunday Sept. 12, 2004. The child was injured when a U.S. helicopter fired at a burning Bradley fighting vehicle surrounded by cheering crowds at Haifa street according to witnesses. (AP Photo/Hadi Mizban) (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040912/481/bag13109121658)

[Radius]

30. I don't write for the AP.

Their story quoted us forces firing on jubilant fighters. Yahoo has pictures of kids throwing rocks at the vehicle. I would not want to be within 500 yards of a vehicle with thousands of rounds of explosive rounds onboard. Are people killed by secondary explosions killed by us? I'm sure they didn't knock a bradley out with rifle fire. They set a bomb off to get it. I wonder the child caught fire from the people attacking the bradley? They do seem to be blowing up lots of iraqis trying to kill us.

Not a broad support for the war but things are always black and white.

[atreides1]

43. But The AP

Got there info from a US military PR officer. As for "our guys" not being evil, what exactly is your definition of evil?

And no, as a combat vet from the Gulf War things are not always black and white, there are more shades of grey out their then you seem to realize.

We can't tell the good guys from the bad guys, before Abu Ghraib it was easy, now it's not.

I don't come from a military family, but I did serve, and even in peace time nothing in the military is black and white.

People who only see black and white, are blind by choice.

[jmcgowanjm]

66. And I don't believe the "disabled by a car bomb" bit, either

And AP is just short for CentCom.

The Bradley was taken out by an RPG, but we can't say that
because it means the Resistance can take out
the top of our food chain armor w/ something that
they have an inexhaustible supply of and a 15 year old
can shoot.

[Djinn]

70. "Jubilant fighters are fair game"

I hear plenty of Iraqi's agree with you although they're looking in the opposite direction







I assume these guys are all "fair game" for the resistance too??

[Babel_17]

23. Tough to judge

We do not have, and may never know, the full story with all the details.

But what comes to mind for me is that neither we nor the Iraqi gov't we support have much of a presence on the streets. Invoking justice and crowd control from the air in situations like these will almost always involve regrettable civilian casualties.

The question to me is why don't we have rapid response ground teams in place. I fear the answer to that bodes nothing good for the future. Violence will increase until a new status quo is achieved and those attempting to grab their share of the pie/power in Iraq are either accommodated or dealt with.

Sigh, we seem too often to choose either the ruthless and competent or the malleable and corrupt as our proxies in situations like this. We couldn't find many of ruthless and competent who meet our other criteria (lack of overt Islamic religiosity combined with a willingness to accommodate our strategic/economic goals) so we have gone mostly with the malleable and corrupt.

Just like in VietNam those types don't have much stomach for battling for control. Just like our own elite who dodged the draft their eye is fixed too squarely on their own personal bottom line.

Small wonder our gov't has such an affinity for doing business with them.

[Barrett808]

25. Reuters reports the chopper attack was filmed -- anybody have a link? n/t

[yardwork]

33. Here's a more recent article - says 25 are killed

Edited to add link:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040912/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_040912154934

Rate this article. It's been freeped.

Surge of Baghdad Violence Leaves 25 Dead

By ROBERT H. REID, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Insurgents hammered central Baghdad on Sunday with one of their most intense mortar and rocket barrages ever in the heart of the capital, heralding a day of violence that left at least 25 people dead in the city as security appeared to spiral out of control.

Many of the dead were killed when a U.S. helicopter fired on a disabled U.S. Bradley fighting vehicle as Iraqis swarmed around it, cheering, throwing stones and waving the black and yellow sunburst banner of Iraq's most-feared terror organization.

[Babel_17]

36. Done

Did the same for similar stories.

I'm not happy with how the story from the military changes. Yes, it's quite possible that earlier briefings from the military were done without benefit of the full report from those involved but that won't change the perception on the streets of Iraq.

Here at home we want to believe our military is living up to their code at all times even under the duress of this fubar'd mission to save Iraq.

But as stories like this mount up the cause for concern that our military's honor and integrity is being compromised by the prolonged involvement in the Iraqi quagmire can only increase.

[Radius]

38. Link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3648786.stm

Appears civilians killed, this deserves an explanation from the top.

[Barrett808]

39. Video of the helicopter attack

Dozens die in day of Iraq clashes (BBC video)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/40063000/rm/_40063230_iraq22_hawley12_vi.ram

Can't see much, but apparently, the reporter shown in the video died in the attack. The crowd actually looks pretty peaceful.

A little more here:
Deadly Explosions Rock Baghdad (Video)
http://news.yahoo.com//p/v?u=/ap_av/20040912/av_ap_wl/13ef56f1c867de66cfb9ed32ced371f1&cid=452&f=53746348

[mike_c]

42. damn, that was brutal-- Allawi sure sounded convincing....

Not. He sounded very scared.

[leftchick]

34. omg... 59 Dead, 200 Wounded....

Surge of Baghdad Violence Leaves 59 Dead

<snip>At least 37 people were killed in Baghdad alone. Many of them died when a U.S. helicopter fired on a disabled U.S. Bradley fighting vehicle as Iraqis swarmed around it, cheering, throwing stones and waving the black and yellow sunburst banner of Iraq (news - web sites)'s most-feared terror organization.

<snip>Maimed and lifeless bodies of young men and boys lay in the street as the stricken U.S. vehicle was engulfed in flames and thick black smoke.


Across the country, the death toll Sunday was at least 59, according to figures from the Health Ministry, the Multinational Force command and local authorities.


Nearly 200 people were wounded, more than half of them in Baghdad.

.... and today condiliar said things are not as bad as they seem.

[LauraK]

45. A big resurgence is going on in Afghanistan as well.

I watched an old Donahue show with Tim Robbins and Susan S last night. Virtualy everything they feared if we went to war is happening.

[NNN0LHI]

40. I thought Chimpy wanted the Iraqis dancing in the streets?

They finally start dancing in the streets and a damn Apache attack helicopter blows them all to smithereens. I wish whoever is running this cluster-fuck would make up their mind for crying out loud. Sheesh.

Don

[mike_c]

41. the U.S. would never use a helicopter gunship against civilians...

...crowding in the street. That's just so..., Israeli. They must have all been terrorists or-- in the case of young children-- terrorists in training pants.

And sure, maybe some of them were going to strip the ordnance from the Bradley. That makes it guilt by association for everyone in that street and justifies opening the .50 calibres onto a civilian crowd, and that's good enough for me!

</disgusted sarcasm>, in case that wasn't evident.

on edit-- just watched the video-- it looks more like a missile strike, but the footage is short and not directed-- it looks like the camera fell.

[ssimmons]

44. Anyone flying the al-Qaida flag is a target

al-Qaida is out to kill every innocent person they don't like and that makes them a target. Remember 9-11? That was an al-Qaida job.

al-Qaida supporters and members are targets plain and simple. No war crime here.

[uhhuh]

46. Are you

Sucking on bush's brain directly, or do they pass out little capsules that have a monkey on them?

[ssimmons]

49. This war on terrorists has nothing to do with Bush

Maybe you support the actions of these terrorists but myself and nearly all of the world does not. Bush has nothing to do with my hatred of these terrorists.

[uhhuh]

51. The war on terrorists

has nothing to do with bush.

Explanation?

[ssimmons]

54. I didn't bring up Bush, you did

My problem right now is with the terrorists and those that support them. After watching the planes hit and kill thousands of innocents again it has hardened my resolve to go and rid the world of this vermin regardless who is president.

[uhhuh]

56. Ah! A Reactionary!

What unit are you in?

I'm glad to see you've hardened your resolve to kill a lot of people.

If you aren't enlisted and requesting Iraq dury, why not?

If you are, could you tell us where, so someone could tell your CO to get you a psych evaluation?

Which vermin are to going to kill? How do you know they are the correct vermin?

Do you wait for the chimp to tell you, or do you act if they look "terroristy" enough?

[ssimmons]

59. I did my years in Nam

Too old for duty now. How about you?

[uhhuh]

62. I have no interest in supporting

The military industrial complex. If someone else wants to, I hope the survive it.

Good on you for your service.

And, in bush's America, you are never too old for duty. The have activated at least one guy who was 67 to go to Iraq.

You can still volunteer!!

[pinkpops]

64. al-Qaida in "Nam"?

oh yes - those were COMMUNISTS

[MisterP]

68. damn, I almost choked on my tongue laughing

[number6]

53. Dear simple minded...

A. who the fuck was flying an Al-Qaida flag ?

B. how is mowing down civilian by standers fighting Al-Qaida ?

C. do you even know what the Al-Qaida flag looks like ?

[ssimmons]

55. See this link

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040912_1418.html

"At least 37 people were killed in Baghdad alone. Many of them died when a U.S. helicopter fired on a disabled U.S. Bradley fighting vehicle as Iraqis swarmed around it, cheering, throwing stones and waving the black and yellow sunburst banner of Iraq's most-feared terror organization."

Disabled military equipment is a live target. These terror flag waving terrorist supporters should keep their distance from disabled US equipment and stop supporting terorists.

[uhhuh]

57. I see

You look to Mickey Mouse to tell you who the terrorists are.

That makes sense.

[ssimmons]

58. I don't look to al-jazeera to tell me who the war criminals are

That is for sure.

[uhhuh]

61. Hey sport

Here is a free clue.

The U.S. government has no interest in going after terrorists.

The U.S. Government, and many of its allies including, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Columbia, and the current government of Haiti, have absoulutely no problem supporting terrorists.

Are you going to get them all by yourself?

[number6]

63. more

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040912_1418.html

The dead from the helicopter strike included Arab television reporter Mazen al-Tumeizi, who screamed, "I'm dying! I'm dying!" as a cameraman recorded the chaotic scene. An Iraqi cameraman working for the Reuters news agency and an Iraqi freelance photographer for Getty Images were wounded.

Maimed and lifeless bodies of young men and boys lay in the street as the stricken U.S. vehicle was engulfed in flames and thick black smoke.

[number6]

60. so Al-Queda is Iraqs most feared Terrorist org.

so we've been there over a year and Al-Queda has free run of
the streets and can wave flags, Bush is a failure then isn't
he ?

"These terror flag waving terrorist supporters should keep their distance from disabled US equipment" we agree on that...

and US gunships should keep from firing into crowds of
civilans...

[number6]

47. agreed (A War Crime Indeed)

"..and 55 wounded when a U.S. helicopter fired at crowds around the vehicle"

[Bo]

48. ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS!!!

[Geo55]

50. zackly Bo

[mmonk]

52. I don't think this would

be prosecutable as a war crime. I do, however, believe this war in Iraq is illegal by international standards.

[sr_pacifica]

67. And 80 dead Iraqis from Sunday

How will these numbers affect the American view of Bush's "leadership" of the war in Iraq?

I'm afraid the answer is, if anything, more support for his "handling" of the war. After all, the more Iraqis killed the better. As long as it's "them" and not "us," all is well.

[Disturbed]

69. Killing unarmed civilians is ok now.

Just say they were enemy combatents. This is some sick fuckin' shit!!! I am sorta surprised to find defense for this awful action at DU.