Forest fires' timing sets tongues wagging (GOP arson?)

[villager]

Forest fires' timing sets tongues wagging

08/27/03

MICHAEL MILSTEIN

An emerging whodunit in Central Oregon hovers amid the smoke draping the east side of the Cascade Range.


Can it be pure coincidence, locals are asking, that two wildfires sprang up in view of the spot where President Bush planned to promote his plan to thin forests for wildfire prevention?

And that they both appeared just as his plans emerged?

"I think everyone in the community here is wondering that," said Judy Wattier, who works at the KOA Campground just east of Sisters, where business is in the doldrums because of the blazes that have covered almost 40,000 acres in the nearby Deschutes National Forest. "Everyone I've mentioned it to can talk about it for hours."

<snip>

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/106198638840220.xml

[bahrbearian]

1. And while Chimpy was is Seattle

collecting bribes the next day a fire broke out about 20 miles away.

[sangh0]

2. What does it mean

when ordinary people have no hesitation in speculating about Bush* and conspiracies?

[UpInArms]

11. I'm certain that

* and Co. will "win" by a computer error landslide! /sarcasm partially off

yeah, what does it mean?

Seems like it might mean that the average ordinary Jane and Joe might be catching on to the "coincidence" theories that abound with everything that happens on McCokespoon's shift.

[Trajan]

26. Perhaps it means ...

That people have god reason to mistrust a man who has no compunction about lying to start a war, nor any to protect citizens from rapacious utility moguls, nor even to protect those in NYC who were exposed to extremely unhealthy air, and were purposely denied that information ....

You have DOUBTS that Bush or ANY one in the GOP would do such a thing as starting forest fires to promote policy ? ..

You deny they can act without morals ? ...

That point isnt speculation: the GOP CAN and DO and WILL act with immoral intent ...

[roughsatori]

3. GOP "Eco-Terrorism"

I guess the Shurb's minions forgot to spray paint "ELF" on a tree.

[markus]

4. No, they probably did.

Of course, the tree burned up.

[arcane1]

5. convenient timing follows these goons around

like the timing of the recent blackout. The timing of the sniper in the east. The timing of the rape os California. The timing of 9/11.

and always remember, you don't roll out a new product before August!

So if some of us want to point this out, and point out how unsurprised we would be to learn it's true, hopefully you all can now understand why

[0rganism]

32. and middle-America greets it as proof of W's divine mandate

"he's such a strong moral leader, I'm glad he's our president"

How many times have you seen that crap since 2001?

[Flying_Pig]

6. Add this to the suicides. the "plane crashes", 9/11,

and a whole list of other atrocities that "may" (and probably were) committed by the right-wing junta, and pretty soon, even bumpkins are going to start asking questions... :mad:

[villager]

7. as per post #2 above...

...Mr. & Mrs. America do seem to be asking questions -- according to the article, a lot of the folks who assume the timing was "suspicious" aren't Demo/Green activists, college professors, or any of the other "usual suspects" as viewed by the right, but rather, folks who seemed like they could've been Bush* supporters at one time themselves.

The question is, does this wind up translating into apathy, or some kind of sea change?

[Flying_Pig]

8. Eastern Oregon is a pretty Repuglian area,

though there are quite a few liberals in Bend, and Sisters. Redmond, where Bush spoke, is cowboy/logger heaven. If *they're* asking questions, it can only be a good thing...

[sangh0]

9. That's why I brought it up

E Oregon is DEFINITELY Freeper territory. It's certainly not DU.

[lumpy]

10. Which only goes to show that Bushco

has rightly earned a reputation for illegal political/military/domestic conspiracies. The distrust is spreading into the general public.

[benfro25]

12. wait a minute

everyone is a little too eager to accept outlandish conspiracy theories. from a logical standpoint it would be very unwise politically for Bush and co. to start a wildfire and the coverup would have to be vast. maybe we should all give bush the benefit of the doubt until there's at least a shred of evidence.

[sangh0]

13. wait a minute

Don't you think that, from the "logical standpoint" that you seem to like, it would "unwise politically" to call for more arsenic in our drinking water? And yet, that's what the Chimp did.

Don't you think that, from the "logical standpoint" that you seem to like, it would "unwise politically" to lie about Saddam's having WMD's. And yet, that's exactly what he did.

Don't you think that, from the "logical standpoint" that you seem to like, it would "unwise politically" to drive the economy into the crapper? And yet, that's exactly what he did.

[benfro25]

15. umm

it would be unwise to intentionally poison people with arsenic, yes.
however reducing the legal limit for arsenic, while it may be only to serve his own purposes and those of his cronies, also reduces the costs of water detoxification, and thus has political support among some americans

about Saddam Hussein's weapons, you are jumping the gun by saying they don't exist. But if you're right, it is something that is easier to cover up, and he can claim that the end justified the means.

finally, concerning the state of the economy it is actually very prudent politically for Bush to employ his economic policies, because they bring in millions of dollars in campaign money and political backing from big business

while i oppose these three actions, they are not outlandish accusations such as the claim that he started two wildfires.

thanks for playing

[Sideways]

30. Ben WTF is this statement all about?

"finally, concerning the state of the economy it is actually very prudent politically for Bush to employ his economic policies, because they bring in millions of dollars in campaign money and political backing from big business"

I mean really dude we are supposed to believe that the economy is going to be helped and Bush is prudent because he is roaming about the country filling up his coffers from big business?

His cash cow/photo op/denial of reality campaigning isn't doing didddly squat for the economy. It is stuffing the Idiot Chimps war chest. BIG DIFFERENCE.

As far as thanks for playing...err umm...cough cough..you are on OUR turf BEN not Limpballs.

This is the BIGS Ben we don't like replacement players much. YMMV.

[UpInArms]

14. well, it was so hard

to think that there was anything in the world that would connect the lovely "intelligence communities" to the thought that terrorists might use "airplanes as weapons" -

and that within 24-48 hours we were presented with full names and pictures of all the suiciders that were involved in 9/11 from the FBI - where did all that information mysteriously and suddenly come from???? If they had it so quickly why didn't they act on it before 9/11???

what rock are you living under??? I truly don't mean to be unkind to you, but what in the world have you been doing for the past 3+ years??? Have you just awakened from a coma? That would be the only reason that I can see for your denial of possible involvement on the junta's behalf.

Have you read the http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Have you looked at the signers on the 1998 letter to Clinton
http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

Elliott Abrams Richard L. Armitage William J. Bennett

Jeffrey Bergner John Bolton Paula Dobriansky

Francis Fukuyama Robert Kagan Zalmay Khalilzad

William Kristol Richard Perle Peter W. Rodman

Donald Rumsfeld William Schneider, Jr. Vin Weber

Paul Wolfowitz R. James Woolsey Robert B. Zoellick

when you have done these things, come back and see how you really can defend anything that may/may not have occurred.

[benfro25]

17. hold on

i did not deny that it was possible that the "junta" had any role in starting the fires. I merely said that you are all jumping the gun, because you want to believe it. there is no shred of evidence yet.

[UpInArms]

19. I have no idea if the junta was involved

in setting the fires - I merely find it extremely interesting that the public has so little faith in the "goodness" of this administration that they are questioning it in relation to these fires.

[aquart]

23. Is that what they were questioning?

None of them thought it was those lefty tree-hugging liberals setting those fires?

Edit: My bad. Should have read the full article first. They really are hinting the administration did it. Wow. That's a major crisis of faith.

[villager]

16. shred of evidence?

You mean, like BushCo's current track record -- rigging elections, for starters? Altering evidence to get us into a war for another?

Shred of evidence?

[benfro25]

18. that's not evidence

of involvement. its merely evidence that bush is a bastard.

[villager]

20. and evidence that such arson...

...wouldn't be past them.

[benfro25]

21. which does not

in and of itself implicate them

[villager]

22. it explains why people are asking questions...

...though nothing explains your dogged defense of Bush* in this instance...

[Zhade]

24. Let's be fair.

It's not really defense of Herr Chimp, as much as a warning not to jump to conclusions - which is, I think, an important reminder.

I would not be surprised if this was arson. But it's true that we should have evidence before deciding it is so. After all, freepers believe in the "liberal" media, with no proof. I don't want to be a freeper!

As for motive, there's no question that it's a possibility that the wingers would do this. So, conviction before evidence aside, it's excellent that people are at least considering that a conspiracy is possible and not just something "conspiracy nuts" dream up.

[Cocoa]

38. the important thing is that people don't trust him

that's going to hurt him in 2004. He'll have to campaign on "this time,
I won't constantly lie to you like I did in my first term."

[0rganism]

33. bushco wouldn't even need to know about it

Look, you got a whole town full of redneck freepers who love bush almost as much as they love clearcuts and dead owls. How hard is it for a wingnut to go around throwing burning cigarette butts into the underbrush before Caligula shows up to promote his "forest policy"?

One need not posit conspiracy to note the unusual coincidence of the two arson fires and shrub's visitation.

[ibegurpard]

34. Whistle-ass doesn't deserve ONE INCH

He's completely exploited the "benefit of the doubt" he's been given in the past.
I have no idea whether there's any validity to this "conspiracy theory" but the fact that I don't reject it outright is testament to what a corrupt administration we are currently saddled with.

[screembloodymurder]

25. In July I was in Glacier and could not believe

the lackadaisical attitude toward the park fires. I said at the time that I felt the Bush was using the fires as an opportunity to push his forest thinning agenda.

I was also appalled at the way the park's structures were being maintained and the general lack of help. My take, Bush is withholding funds so that he can make his case for privatizing the park system.

[villager]

27. right

do all you can to insure the failure of public sector institutions, so you can sell them off to your backers...

[xchrom]

29. classic capitalistic/imperialistc mode

sell it off cheap to ''supporters''. it keeps the lackeys happy so the elite can rule.

[w4rma]

28. Bush*: “Look, our strategy is to create chaos, to create a vacuum.”

…
In 2000, when Prime Minister Ehud Barak, PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat and President Clinton were meeting at Camp David, Perle made news when he warned Barak not to let Vice President Al Gore become involved in the peace summit, for fear it would boost Gore's election prospects. He also told Barak to "walk away" from a peace plan if it left the thorny issue of a divided Jerusalem unresolved. Working as an advisor to candidate Bush, Perle warned Barak he would urge the Texas governor to condemn any peace plan that gave the PLO a foothold in Jerusalem. The Bush campaign quickly distanced itself from Perle's remarks.
…
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2002/09/05/perle/index.html

Anger at peace talks 'meddling'
Political scandal in US as Bush advisers tell Israelis to be ready to walk out of Camp David negotiations
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,342857,00.html

You’re Invited to the War Party ("Bush at War" book review)
By Georgie Anne Geyer
Ever since his Watergate revelations, which helped evict a president and change the United States for all time, for better or worse Bob Woodward has stood as the major force in a new genre of journalism. He talks, wheedles, and, using government officials’ personal ambitions and dreams of political eternity, implicitly threatens his way into the often closed corridors of power—there, he is a master at getting a certain number of figures who try their best to remain aloof and unknown to tell their stories. The proposition, understood if not explicitly spoken, is that this book, as his former ones, will tell the story—you miss out on leave on this journalistic port, fellow, you miss the whole historic ship!
…
First of all, Bush at War is really about the decision-making process in the upper levels of the Bush administration—the White House, the State Department, and the Pentagon—from the exact morning of Sept. 11th. It begins with a profoundly worried George Tenet, head of the CIA and, from all of the space he gets in the book, obviously one of Woodward’s best and favored sources. That very morning, Tenet is wondering about when Osama bin Laden, whom he has been desperately tracking, will strike the U.S. Then “it” happens—and from then onward, the book delineates day-by-day, and sometimes hour-by-hour and minute-by-minute—what supposedly went on in meeting after meeting. From all accounts that I know of, Woodward’s interpretations are exactly right; it is the quotes that are so bothersome.
…
Another time, he says to Woodward, “I’m the commander—see, I don’t need to explain—I do not need to explain why I say things. That’s the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don’t feel like I owe anybody an explanation.”

At still another point after the Afghan war has started, the president says to his staff, “Look, our strategy is to create chaos, to create a vacuum.” And Woodward ends the book with another quote from the president, in which he again reflects the obsessive chaos theory of the neoconservatives surrounding him like sentinels and for whom Iraq has become the sina quo non of political existence: “We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defense of our great nation.” Whew.
http://www.amconmag.com/01_13_03/geyer7.html

[Gman]

31. They pasted the "Made In USA" stickers

over the "Made in China" markings on boxes, which is against the law just like arson.

More "who cares what you think?"

[Not a robought]

35. Is it any wonder why people's tongues are wagging?

Remember this from July 12th? (It's Fox so hold your nose)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,91735,00.html

PHOENIX, Arizona — The FBI (search) alerted law enforcement agencies last month that an Al Qaeda (search) terrorist now in detention had talked of masterminding a plot to set a series of devastating forest fires around the western United States.

Rose Davis (search), a spokeswoman for the National Interagency Fire Center (search) in Boise, Idaho, told The Associated Press that officials there took note of the warning but didn't see a need to act further on it.

The contents of the June 25 memo from the FBI's Denver office were reported Friday by The Arizona Republic. Davis declined to share a copy of the memo and an FBI spokeswoman in Denver didn't immediately return a telephone call.

<snip>
----------------------------------------------------------

WTF?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

36. i believe bush would do it in a NY second!...withourt a doubt!

[leftbend]

37. coincidence in Central Oregon

I live in central oregon and even my Dr. commited on the "coincidence" today. I do live in Bend which is a bit more liberal but the general area has many loggers, ranchers, wealthy repug retirees, mostly very conservative, so if these folks are asking questions the cracks are certainly beginning to show.