Mississippi: Musgrove, Barbour want Mississippi to display monument

[Judi Lynn]

Mississippi: Musgrove, Barbour want Mississippi to display monument
Posted by: will on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 01:27 AM

JACKSON (AP) — Democratic Gov. Ronnie Musgrove and his Republican rival Haley Barbour said Mississippi would take the Ten Commandments monument that was removed Wednesday from a public area of the Alabama Supreme Court building.

The separate statements were issued within minutes of each other, and it’s unclear which was written first.
‘‘For too long our courts and politicians have interpreted every American freedom of religion as freedom from religion,’’ Musgrove wrote in a letter to suspended Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, who installed the 5,280-pound monument two years ago in the rotunda of the Alabama Judi-cial Building.
‘‘It would be my honor to host this monument as a symbol of every Mississippian’s dedication to the fundamental principles of the Ten Commandments,’’ Musgrove wrote on official stationery with the state seal.
Barbour, who’s challenging Musgrove in the Nov. 4 general election, issued a news release saying the court-ordered removal of the Ten Command-ments monument in Alabama was wrong.
‘‘Tell Judge Moore, who is a hero to so many of us, that if they don’t want the monument in Alabama, we want it in Mississippi,’’ Barbour said. ‘‘I’ll send a truck over today to pick it up, if they’ll let me have it for the Governor’s Mansion.’’ (snip/...)

http://www.godesoto.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1786&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

[peterh]

1. Well…since we don’t have the flippy anymore…

I’ll just say…Fuck you Musgrove…Fuck you Barbour….and Fuck you to all those that mistakenly see a difference in those that choose to defy a Constitutional rule of law and those that promote anarchy.

[jiacinto]

5. Have you ever considered

that maybe Musgrove is up for re-election and that people in MS actually respect religion?

[Walt Starr]

7. Have you ever thought that pandering to theocratic fools is dangerous?

And I will call anybody who supports this fucked up monument precisely what they are, IDOLATORS!

[jiacinto]

9. Do you hate religion?

I sometimes wonder about whether some people here just hate religion in general.

[AlabamaYankee]

16. You're making a huge logical mistake

In arguing from the Specific ("The placement of a religous monument in a public place - particularly a Courthouse is wrong") to the general ("anybody who says that hates religion")is one of the most common logical fallacies, and one that unfortunately is used most often by demagogues.

In the Alabama case, Justice Moore has for many years pushed for the establishment of his brand of protestant faith as the basis for governmental decisions. When he was a county judge he would start the court proceedings with a prayer, and made clear his disdain for people not of his religion. If you have seen him on the news recently, he is eerily similar to historical demagogues like George Wallace and Huey Long. His supporters in Montgomery were mainly Neo-Confederates, States-righters, and the usual gang of professional fundamentalists, most of them from out of state. The Federal judge made clear in his ruling that the big issue was how Moore had "entangled" the state in the form of the Court, and him personally, with religion, by permitting the exploitation of the monument by a religious institution (Coral Ridge Ministries)as well as his pronouncements about placing God's law above state and Federal Law. That's textbook establishment.

As far as calling the monument idolatry, you need only to listen to the remarks of the protesters, and watch as they prayed to the rock.

Those of us who are people of deep personal faith, but also recognize the importance of the separation between religion and the state can only applaud the decision. If Moore wants the monument in his front yard, then Bless his heart, as we say down here. Just keep it out of the courthouse.

[Jacobin]

42. Thank you for the cogent response to the

dangerous themes that are being spouted by RWers and those who think that theocracies are not a problem

[ProfessorGAC]

19. No Logic Classes in College, Carlos?

Sure doesn't seem like it. That was one enormous leap from what the poster said and your conclusion.
The Professor

[jsw_81]

55. Do I hate religion?

I certainly hate some of them, especially Xtian fundamentalism. It's a vile, horrific belief system that should be tossed on the garbage heap of history. And if anyone's offended, I say tough shit.

[treepig]

51. another example of the rightwinger irony-is-dead meme

don't these people realize that by making an idol of this piece of stone, they're violating the commandment "thou shalt have no other gods before me . . "?

what a bunch of morons.

[NewJerseyDem]

25. This isn't about respecting religion

That is an outrageous comment. There are some people in the world and in Mississippi who aren't religious or are of a different religion than christianity. This isn't about who respects religion but about who respects those that have diffent religious views. Perhaps the people of Mississippi don't respect those that disagree with them about religion.

I do respect religion and if Christianity is what people believe than that is fine but others shouldn't try to force that view on others by using their voting power. It is offensive to suggest that those that don't want the ten commandments in every public building in the country don't respect the religious views of others.

[LeftCoast]

2. I won't bash the South. I won't bash the South.

:spank:

[Atlant]

10. No need. The South routinely bashes itself. (NT)

[ginantonic40]

53. O.T. graphic request.

Lefty, do you have a larger version of your 'shutup' graphic? I would dearly love to acquire one large enough (read higher resolution) to use as a bumper sticker and t-shirt logo. TIA

[Wednesdays]

3. Looks like Mississippi doesn't consider itself

beholden to the Constitution nor the SCOTUS.

[mikeytherat]

4. So, every single Mississippian is a Christian or Jew?

"It would be my honor to host this monument as a symbol of every Mississippian’s dedication to the fundamental principles of the Ten Commandments," Musgrove wrote on official stationery with the state seal.

EVERY Mississippian? Wow, an entire state comprised exclusively of Judeo-Christian folks, and it's Mississipi, no less. Who'd a thunk it?

mikey_the_rat

[jiacinto]

6. This is what I think

Politically Musgrove has no choice but to say that. On the other hand I do think there is a separation of church and state and that the monument doesn't belong in a government area. However, at the same time, I often think that sometimes the far left takes this issue way too far vis a vis the Pledge of Allegiance and non-sectarian prayers at graduation ceremonies.

[Walt Starr]

8. This is not a "Far Left" issue

If anything it is conservative by definition to desire to keep the boundaries between church and state where they were when the first amendment was written.

[PurityOfEssence]

35. Absolutely correct

This is not a "fringe" issue. Admittedly, it's something we shouldn't have our major candidates delving into during an important election cycle. An enforced absense of religion in government is not "anti-religion" it is "religion neutral". How is a blank wall offensive? Must the beliefs of the dominant believers be proclaimed everywhere, mandated and sustained by public monies to rub the noses of the non-believers in the groupthink or else risk the believers screaming "persecution" because of resisance to their persecution?

It's offensive, wrong and ILLEGAL. Leaving "innocuous" statements, "ceremonial deism" and slogans intact is to leave numerous precedents to be exploited by those who would force religion down our throats.

Endorsement of any religion or group of religions is tyranny: it's to say that those outside of the accepted guess are inferiors within society. "one nation, under god" says that if you are not under god, you are not really a true member of the nation.

Article One of the Bill of Rights goes way beyond this; it's not just particular religions or groups of them, it's the very concept of religion itself that is to be held at bay. The very concept of a god is not to be mentioned in the official functions of the government; many of us do not accept the concept. We do not demand anti-religion in government, merely an absence.

Those of us without religion stomach a lot in this society, and toe the line for the most part, realizing that this is a dangerous issue.

Unfortunately, many people are so programmed with the belief that they simply cannot accept anyone really believing that the big whatever isn't there, and any attempt to question their rights of omnipresence is personally trying to hurt them. It's too divisive an issue for right now, but it needs to be addressed and contained as soon as possible.

[Rowdyboy]

11. Its 70 days before an statewide election....

The last governor's race was run by 8,000 votes. This one is likely to be just as close. I don't like Musgrove saying that but if I was in his place, I'd probably say the same thing. Find a politician who's never been guilty of pandering, and I'll show you a former politician...

[Ripley]

12. I hope what I heard isn't true.

I heard someone say on CNN that this was just the beginning of a movement by the 40 million (?) born-again Christians who see the judicial system in America is attacking them (by the Texas ruling, etc.).

This is really scary folks. They are so deluded that they think secular America is taking something away from them when it is just the opposite. THEY are the ones trying to force the Bible into MY courthouse, MY schools, MY TV. They are trying to keep certain minorities stripped of constitutional rights they enjoy.

You know, a lot of people at the rallies in Montgomery were from other states. So don't start bashing the south. This may be starting here, but let's see how long it takes before Alaska or Ohio decides they want a granite washing machine in their courthouse.

I remember the fringe nuts always talked about the coming "race" wars, has it now changed to the "religious" wars that are coming?

Jack van Impe will be leading the charge I'm sure.

[LoneStarLiberal]

15. If The Wingnuts Believed in Logic

Then they would see that they are in a classic tautology...their behavior reinforces the exact type of reaction they use to play the aggrieved minority card in the first place.

I grew up in the Methodist church. One thing I did not appreciate at the time but now do is how practical and approachable the Bible was in my church; it was an environment where you thought about the lessons behind the Scriptures and how these related to your life instead of some intolerant inerrant doctrine.

While there is definitely room to worry about these people, I do not think we have to worry too much about them politically; they are the Republicans' problem, not ours. They will never vote for a Democratic candidate though could probably vote for a Buchanan or Robertson so in that sense they are far more of a relevant threat to the conservatives in America than they are to liberals.

We've already been through one Great Awakening. It came and went and is now history. Although we may be seeing the dawning of a second Great Awakening, it will come and go. There is sufficient enough at stake that they do merit close scrutiny, though.

Edit: The judicial system is attacking them. The system of publically-funded higher education is attacking them. Intellectuals are attacking them. The expansion of cultural literacy is attacking them. They are completely right (pun!) about all this; why? Because all these things attack narrow-mindedness and those who embrace ignorance. They deserved to be attacked by all these things.

[Ripley]

18. I agree with you.

However, the Fundies will tell you the judicial system is PERSECUTING them. The ones crying on my courthouse steps are shivering with fear that the judges are on a ladder and the next rung will be to come into their homes and take their bibles away.

Now who would have put that thought into their heads? Could it be the big mouths on TV, like Tucker boy on CNN? I saw him viciously attack a woman from the ACLU the other night. She compared Moore to Wallace, rightfully so. Tucker boy then spewed "So, you are calling Judge Moore a Nazi or a Klansman?"

The lies and distortions by the mainstream right seem to be getting to a near hysterical pitch lately. Are they trying to rile up the Fundies?

[LearnedHand]

39. Link?

n/t

[burr]

13. Swift Ronnie cuts his own throat.

And I thought he was democrat, not a demagogue. Another DINO loses my support, Sherman Lee Dillon for Governor!

<http://www.dillon4gov.com/questions.html>

[saigon68]

14. Tell Judge Moore, who is a hero to so many of us

MAYBE THEY COULD NOSTALIGICALLY BRING BACK

separate and equal restrooms

FOR THEIR BLACK AND WHITE RESIDENTS

also ---- why stop there maybe LUNCH COUNTERS too

[ProfessorGAC]

20. Don't Forget Water Fountains

The Professor

[Atlant]

23. And while you're at it, women don't really need to vote. (NT)

[GoldenOldie]

17. Media and the Golden Calf

I am amazed that the national media has been at the Alabama court house interviewing the 200-300 good chrisitians, that have arrived to pray with the help of microphones, wail, lay prone on the hard concrete steps/walkways, beating of brows, while cameras continually panning to the big block of marble with writings that were approved by the Alabama judge who snuck it into the courhouse in the dark of night.
We get to watch all of this 24/7, as TV Evangelists -Falwell, out-of-work attorney's, TV attorney's turned journalist, as they scream to be heard, just how bad this is for the country.

Where in the hell were these same media CNN, NBC, CBS, FOX, when hundreds of thousands were marching and protesting in the streets of this Nation against sending our military to Iraq. Where were the citizens being interviewed. Where is the media now as we are spending billions in Iraq with our troops being picked-off on a daily basis and the only journalists that give a damn about reporting the truth are being mysteriously killed in Iraq.

Our media is no better than that found in countries controlled by dictators.

[prolesunited]

22. What??!?!? You think those godless, commie "libruls"

deserve equal coverage with these god-fearing, moral pillars of society? /sarcasm off

Media today is no longer the Fourth Estate, designed as a watchdog for we the people. It is a profit-driven entertainment industry. The monument story is easily digestible, with so-called heroes and villains battling it out along a simple plot-line.

Do you think media actually is going to devote resources (time and money) to investigate stories and dig deeper into issues? No when it will cut into their profit margins, never mind the advertising revenues if they don't follow the party line.

[jos]

21. Mississippi

There is actually a place worse than Alabama.

Reminds me of the old Dick Gregory joke. During segregation, he was asked how who would root for in the college football game between Alabama and Mississippi. He replied, "the commercials."

[NewJerseyDem]

24. I love New Jersey

Whenever I here things like this I just think about how great New Jersey is.

I guess that politically one has to be very religious to win in Mississippi but it is just sad that such religious fanaticism is so powerful is some states.

[Felix Mala]

26. The 10 Commandments are the basis for all GOP pandering.

Wasn't this settled 40 years ago?

[californication]

27. Please someone...

The Ten Commandments monument to me is the same as having moses on the Supreme Court Building holding the Ten commandments. It also has other religions represented as well. I don't see anything wrong about having the monument there as long as it inclusive to all as in such case as the Supreme court building. If we did not base our laws on the spirit of the Ten commandments then It is Ok to kill someone and rape someone lie to everyone you know and go next door and take your neighbors BMW out for a spin without even asking him.

[Felix Mala]

28. If that's what the judge is after...

However, I'm sure most of us think he's doing this to show that, as a man of God, doing God's work, no one should oppose him for office and those who vote against him are trying to stop God's work. This is the exact reason why the Founders erected a FIREWALL between church and state. They knew there'd be no shortage of politicians trying to convince people that their viewpoint was also God's. The deliberative process of representative government cannot exist when the participants believe they're acting on behalf of the Supreme Being.

[Judi Lynn]

29. What about Japan?

How does that work, considering your proposition?

>>> If we did not base our laws on the spirit of the Ten commandments then It is Ok to kill someone and rape someone lie to everyone you know and go next door and take your neighbors BMW out for a spin without even asking him. <<<

Do you have any reason to imagine Japanese people kill a lot of other people, rape quite a few, lie continuously, and are all out driving around in each others' BMW's?

Seems it would hardly be worth the effort to maintain an embassy there, wouldn't you think?

[californication]

45. Ok...

The ancient civilization of the orient is represented on top of the supreme court building along with the Ten commandments which are symbolic in the sense that those ancient (Moses, Confucius, Salon) civilizations leaders philosophy comprise the laws of nature which is where the framers of the constitution got used as a template to form our governemnt. This is way before Jesus and Mohammad walked the earth.

[Atlant]

30. You understand that most religious traditions...

> If we did not base our laws on the spirit of the Ten commandments
> then It is Ok to kill someone and rape someone lie to everyone
> you know and go next door and take your neighbors BMW out for a
> spin without even asking him.

You understand that most religious traditions (and not just
Judaism and Christianity) don't believe in murder, rape, or
theft, right?

Even most atheists don't believe in murder, rape, or theft.

Through lots of research, people have simply discovered that
you can't have a functioning society if you allow that sort
of thing.

---

You also understand that many of the "Ten Commandments"
aren't dealing with such mundane things, but rather, are
prescribing particular religious behaviors required of
the participants in that religion, right?

And these religious requirements have exactly NOTHING
to do with the people who don't adhere to those few religions
to which the Ten Commandments apply?

Atlant

[Felix Mala]

31. Antonin Scalia

I don't think even he would support a state law requiring residents to worship Jehovah and no other God.

[californication]

34. Read this....

From Abraham Lincoln's "Proclamation Appointing a National Fast Day," March 30, 1863:
"Whereas, the Senate of the United States devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for national prayer and humiliation:
And whereas, it is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history: that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord:
And, insomuch as we know that, by His divine law, nations like individuals are subjected to punishments and chastisements in this world may we not justly fear that the awful calamity of civil war, which now desolates the land may be but a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole people; We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven. We have been preserved these many years in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious Hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined,, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us!
It behooves us then to humble ourselves before the offended Power, to confess our national sins and to pray for clemency and forgiveness. <. . . >
All this being done, in sincerity and truth, let us then rest humbly in the hope authorized by the Divine teachings, that the united cry of the nation will be heard on high and answered with blessings no less than the pardon of our national sins and the restoration of our now divided and suffering country to its former happy condition of unity and peace.
In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed. By the President: Abraham Lincoln.

[Atlant]

36. So? (NT)

[peterh]

37. Uhhh…that version you posted is a hoax

<http://members.aol.com/paulbeedle/thanksgiving.html>


Lincoln's Thanksgiving Proclamation of October 3, 1863 - which set the precedent for our custom of observing Thanksgiving on the last Thursday in November - begins with the words "The year that is drawing towards its close..." (Lincoln did not establish the Thanksgiving custom, he only fixed a date that stuck.)

The hoax* - which begins with the words "It is the duty of nations..." - is a paste-up of portions of Lincoln's Proclamation Appointing a National Fast Day of March 30, 1863 with a piece of the closing paragraph of the above Thanksgiving Proclamation tacked onto the end. Where the Thanksgiving piece is tacked on, the original said:.....

[Sentath]

32. Right Bingo Exactly

"It also has other religions represented as well."

Which is something that the judge was offered as a way to keep his monument, and he categorically and without exception refused.

[NewJerseyDem]

33. There isn't a law against lying

I don't know of any law that prohibits me from lying to other people. If there were one then I would be in a lot of trouble. I would also be in a lot of trouble if I had to honor my parents. I don't see how one can say that the ten commandments are the basis of our law. It is just that we can't kill people and we can't steal things. I think that the people of Thailand and Japan would be surprised that their laws against murder were based on the ten commandments.

[TacticalPeek]

38. Lordy, being a dem behind the Magnolia Curtain

requires a MIGHTY perseverance.

BUT, this is electoral politics, brothers and sisters. For the squeamish, there are other politics.

Quote:

Glenn said he did not know about Barbour’s offer to take the monument to Mississippi. "Gov. Musgrove is the actual governor right now so we’ll take his letter," Glenn said.

Asked how Barbour would display the monument at the Governor’s Mansion since he’s not governor, campaign spokesman Quinton Dickerson said: "I think he means ... if he’s elected he would." from posted article

Electoral politics.

This issue is totally irrelevant to 99.99% of any affairs of government. As outraged as I am at Judge Moore and his supporters, I am more incensed by the media's Kobe/Laci/OJ hyped, endless coverage of this freak show. And those decisions come not from Mississippi or Alabama, but from the cosmopolities of NY, LA, ATL, etc.

Yes, it grates on me to hear this from Musgrove, Lord knows it does. But I also see that he absolutely must do suchlike to have a chance to win. It is way, way better for his state and country that Musgrove be governor than Barbour. That is the relevant matter, not a piece of rock.

A pure and perfect politics is better expressed fighting for a single issue. Statewide electoral politics is more the playground of the junk yard dogs. I'm actually thankful that Ronnie was as quick to the punch as Haley the Barbourian.

Pandering, sure. I'll bet I can find a little pandering somewhere in the record of ANY candidate. You watch. Someday there will be something about your favorite, perfect candidate, about which you will say, "No. He would never do that. He won't do such a thing." and sure as the sun shines, poof! They do it. But unless you believe their opponents should take their power of office, you should still support them if you can.

Burr (#13 above), in this race, a vote for anyone other than Musgrove is a vote for Barbour. That's the nature of electoral politics as it exists now and will still exist this Nov 4.

[lordwhorfin]

40. Ah, Phil Ochs

"Mississippi, find yourself another country to be part of."

[californication]

46. Well...

They did try that once but that whole Civil War thing foiled their attempt.

[davidinalameda]

41. its called pandering

let's see who can kiss the ass of the religious right the most

I don't fault Musgrove for doing it though. He has to get the votes of some of those mouth breathers.

[Jacobin]

43. Pure demagoguery

"Hey ya'll over in Alabama!! Ain't got the guts to stand up to no federal commie judge? Send that thang over ta Mississippi and we'll show ya how ta stand up to some damn commie godless federal judge"

"They can send in the troops to take it away, like they did when medgar evers tried to go to Ole Miss. We'll shoot them commie bastards, they try ta take away our gawd."

Huge bump in the polls and lots of grist for the Sunday morning preachers.

[TacticalPeek]

44. Whoops, you confuse issues.

Troops were sent over Mississippian James Meredith's desegregation of Ole Miss; Medgar Evers was the Mississippian heading the state NAACP who was assassinated by the subhuman, Byron Beckwith (no troops).

And the issues you conflate are racial bigotry and religious bigotry. Mississippi, with it's tiny population, has more black elected officials that any other state in the union.

[Jacobin]

47. Your memory is better than mine on the players back then

(although that's not saying much). The analogy stands.

As for conflation, I don't concede that there is not a relationship between "not letting federal judges tell us how to live our lives" which is enmeshed in the two war cries (segregation and biblethumping in public buildings).

[TacticalPeek]

49. "not letting federal judges tell us how to live our lives"

With the exception of Bush v Gore, of course. So much for principle.

[californication]

48. I maybe wrong here...

That it is socially acceptable with stereotyping white southern males.
When are we going to be politically correct across the board?

[Bake]

50. Pander, pander, pander

I understand WHY Musgrove said it, since the election is coming pretty soon. And part of me wants to say that it's better to keep Musgrove in office even if I have to hold my nose to do so, rather than have Haley Barbout in the governor's mansion (by the way, didja notice the presumptiveness of Barbour -- "he can send it to ME to put up in the governor's mansion").

What's funny is they both knew there was no way in hell Judge Roy Bean was going to give up his Graven Image to MS. So, I guess if they're gonna pander, I'm glad Musgrove got in the first shot. I'll bet that really pissed of Barbour!

Now, I've gotta go take a shower ... feel kinda slimy ...

Bake

[M3some]

52. steadily chipping away

Someone in another post said that one of the reasons why this has been such a prominent story is that its a good way to distract attention away from other, more important stories such as Iraq and to strengthen the religious-right base in the run-up to the election. They are able to make it look like its an assault on their religious freedom and to rally support for their cause and to blame it all on us god-less liberal heathens.

Someone else said that the 2004 campaign will be about winning and securing support from each parties respective core voting block instead of reaching to centrist and moderate voters and maybe this is just an example of this idea.

I'm not religous at all and I have my views about what religion has done in the past and today, but I am always respectful of other peoples beliefs, even if I don't necessarily belive them. But these people raise my ire because of their blantant disregard for the constitution and their obvious intent of try to establish a theocracy in the United States. You see it with their constant harping about the "moral decay" of the United States and in such issues as school prayer and the commandments.

I think one reason why they are so adamant in their support and drive is a resistance to the changes that are going on in our society and what we are becoming as a country. I think they are afraid of the natural progression of society and are going to fight kicking and screaming to hold on to their view of what they feel America used to be like. That might be one reason why they are trying to get religon more integrated into government and civic life.

[jsw_81]

54. Musgrove

He's easily the most conservative Democratic governor in the country (he's anti-choice, for example) and I'm not at all surprised that he's pandering to the fundies (AKA American Taliban). So screw him. If he wants to display this stupid rock I hope he's prepared to face a lawsuit.