Lynndie England could receive up to 38 years in jail

[lovuian]

http://newsfromrussia.com/world/2004/09/28/56311.html

Lynndie England could receive up to 38 years in jail

04:48 2004-09-28
Private First Class Lynndie England will be court-martialled in January on charges arising from the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison, the U.S. Army announced Monday.
A motions hearing is scheduled for Dec. 1-3, with the trial scheduled for Jan. 17-28, according to Lieutenant-General John Vines, commander of the 18th Airborne Corps at Fort Bragg.
Pfc. England, 21, a reservist stationed at Fort Bragg who is seen in some of the most notorious photos taken at the prison, was arraigned Friday, and did not enter a plea.
If convicted of all 19 counts, she could receive up to 38 years in jail, a dishonourable discharge and forfeiture of all pay and allowances.
more....

This just gives a wake up call to all Military you will be convicted Not your commanding officer just remember that

She forgot what is was to be a human being..now she will be a prisoner

[kayell]

1. Ok, what will Rummy and * get???

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

2. Yeah, since he approved it, it's only fair...

...what WILL he get?

[lovuian]

5. Notice the Woman gets convicted first

Who was her commanding officer

Only the grunts are going to jail

this is terribly demoralizing for the Army

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

6. Bush response: "Our nation owes Secretary Rumsfeld a debt of gratitude"

:grr:

[durablend]

11. I'm showing my gratitude to Rumsfeld now...

There's no icon to illustrate it though.

(here's a hint...it involves one finger on each hand--guess which one)

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

12. Hey, welcome to DU, bush_has_to_go!

:toast:

[JusticeForAll]

21. Just like Martha gets convicted first

How long have we been waiting for Enron and the hundreds of other crooks to serve their time and pay their debts?!?!?!

[Psephos]

23. You're wrong, she's the last of the seven to face prosecution

She is not being convicted (yet). She is being court-martialed.

I take it you did not read the article before posting. England is actually the last of the seven accused soldiers to be brought before the military court.

Here is a direct quote from the New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/28/international/worldspecial/28abuse.html

"Private England is the last of seven soldiers from the 372nd Military Police Company, based in Cresaptown, Md., to face military court proceedings..."

For my $0.02 worth, I don't have a problem with England being held responsible for her actions. What she did was mean, degrading, and pointless. She won't get 38 years; I'd be quite surprised if she gets 38 months. This has been a huge black eye for the Army and they will not want to been seen handing out Draconian sentences to the grunts...that would only invite additional scrutiny of those higher up the chain of command. It would also risk martyrizing England.

[sr_pacifica]

3. I don't buy the Lynndie England as victim b.s. n/t

[Celeborn Skywalker]

8. No, she's not a victim

but that doesn't change the fact that her commanding officers should be held accountable also.

[leftist.]

4. I'd give her 38 years just for that bad haircut! (n/t)

[sr_pacifica]

7. You got that right! n/t

[lovuian]

9. She deserves the 38 years but so does he commanders

for letting her get away with it

If no commanders get prison time then its your typical

let the grunts burn

This is one of the most demoralizing things happen in an Army when the military men & women can't trust their commanding officers

[billbuckhead]

10. I think her story is a parable for how the Repukes really treat the workin

class. This unfortunate woman was turned loose without proper supervision. She didn't think this up on her own. On the low low she was trained and rewarded for these acts.

[lovuian]

13. Exactly

I wonder what her evaluation was before Abu Ghahib Prison Scandal

probably excellent

[Seabiscuit]

27. I agree, except

that no woman who did what she did should be characterized as "unfortunate". She had it in her somewhere to participate in the activities she engaged in, which were disgusting beyond the pale.

That's not to say her superiors all the way up to Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush shouldn't be shot at sundown for her conduct.

[gottaB]

29. we all have it in us--that's why laws are necessary

When the Whitehouse/Pentagon purposefully crafted a policy to evade international humanitarian law, and passed it down the chain of command, they virtually ensured that this sort of abuse would occur. Knowing what we know about the socialpsychology of prison situations, no other outcome was likely. This is the charitable view of Bush/Rumsfeld torture policy.

A less charitable, but equally plausible, view is that Bush/Rumsfeld specifically intended for underlings to commit acts which they understood to be torture and knew to be violations of international and US law.

In either case, it is indeed unfortunate that Pfc England did not have the benefit of legal counsel before she carried out her crimes. Clearly her training in the Geneva Protocols did not adequately cover a situation in which her President and Defense Secretary would plot to circumvent the law. Some members of the Judge Advocate General's Corps protested the Bush torture policy, but they did not protest loudly enough. The JAG failed Pfc England as much as Bush and Rumsfeld betrayed her.

[stlsaxman]

17. Yeah- like Moe Howard! n/t

[karlrschneider]

14. she will get "time served" & a DD

Bank on it.

[Florida_Geek]

18. she has not served one day

she is free as a bird.....

[Stew225]

15. So much for her plans to

matriculate at Sarah Lawrence.

[Lefty48197]

16. for damaging government property?

.

[Hekate]

19. How do you spell "scapegoat" kids?

First thought in my shock at the photos: "Who taught that girl to do that?" She is not, repeat not, blameless. But she was the lowest person in the chain of command, probably the youngest there, female in a male world, from a distinctly non-privileged background, and drowning in a swamp of propaganda. She did as she was told. I want to know who told her to do it.

Lyndie's not blameless. Can't remember the name of the young man who blew the whistle, the one whose more-or-less disabled Mom lives in a trailer park -- that young man did the right thing, and at some risk to himself. His life is probably none too easy just now, because nobody thanks a whistleblower.

But before you spend all your energy reviling Lyndie -- remember to keep asking why the investigators aren't vigorously pursuing the chain of command all the way to the top. Because you know it goes to the top, all the way up to the men that patted that lawyer on the head for writing the opinion that the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to us anymore. That's where the rot starts.

My greatest hope is that Lyndie and the others in her unit have a helluva good lawyer, one that can blow the case open, not just get them off.

Hekate

[Fuzzy LaRue]

24. From what I have heard and read...

Lyndie was not assigned to that unit. If this is true, then her own chain of command is blameless. No one had to tell her to do what she is accused of doing. She was having sex with one of the guards assigned there. If they were beating and abusing prisoners she probably just wanted to take part.

It is entirely possible that that the abuse went only a couple of steps up the chain of command. A lot of times, hell most of the time, fucked up shit at squad level stays at squad level. Platoon shit stays at platoon level. Company shit stays at company level.

In Korea, a couple of my soldiers stole a Hummer from the MPs. One of them paniced and told me. I was their squad leader. I could have kicked it up to my platoon sergeant and a big deal could have been made. Instead, we went out and left the Hummer parked on the side of the road close to the Camp where the MPs were staioned. Ot ended right there.

You would be amazed to know what soldiers cover up and hide from their commanders.

[sandnsea]

28. Oh puhleese

You slumming tonight??

Don't even try to compare what happened at Abu Ghraib with typical youthful stupidity. Rape, anal rape, dog attacks, murder. Again, do you really care? If you do, the stories are there. Not in the US media too much, our "liberal" media doesn't report it all. I'd be inclined to say this is the worst scandal that has happened in US history, but there's been so many the last 4 years, it's hard to pin down which one is worse.

The change in treatment of prisoners came from Washington. Everybody knows it. Why pretend otherwise?

[Fuzzy LaRue]

36. Even if it goes to higher ups,

the higher ups in Lyndie's chain of command would not be involved. She was in another unit and that unit would have no reason to issue orders for the prisoners to be mistreated.

The higher ups of the other guards could go down on this, but not her's.

In Desert Storm I used volunteer to ride along as an extra gun with the Air Force Para-rescue guys. If on one of our trips we came up on some Iraqis and tortured them, if it got out, the Air Force chain of command could be in trouble, but no one in my chain of command would be involved.

I think the heads of higher ups will wind up stuck on poles after this is all over, but I sincerely think that Lyndie's superiors were out of the loop. She was basically acting on her own to fit in with her boyfriend and friends.

[saigon68]

40. They are in denial

She didn't have the brains to how to humilate these men and shame their religion. Ie: used Kotex pads taped to the head and face.

She is like so many other slot fillers over there Dense and Dumb.

[Hello_Kitty]

33. I'd believe that except...

I just read Sy Hersch's book and he uncovered how orders to 'soften' up the Abu Ghraib inmates similar to the way Guantanamo were came from WAY up top!

[Lerkfish]

37. I call bullsh!t to your reasoning, here...

1. the torture and abuse was ordered by civilian contractors working for the CIA.
2. How could civilians, under ANY circumstance be superceding the base commander, unless orders came from Rumsfeld and Bush?
3. Who paid for their travel to Iraq? was it Englund? Did she personally shell out thousands of bucks to transport, house and feed civilian interrogation specialists and MI and CIA interrogators (including one shadowy Mossad agent)?

follow the money. Who paid the way for the contractors...when you determine that, that is how high you should go.

[Fuzzy LaRue]

43. I am not saying heads won't roll.

I am just saying that since Lyndie was not part of the unit guardig the prison, it would make no sense to go after HER chain of command. That is probably we are not seeing higher ups brought to task. It will probably change once the soldiers in the actual unit in charge of that prison went to trial.

If orders do come down to from the top they are not given out as a blanket on something like this. They are handed down in a specific line down to the ones that have to act on it. If Lyndie's unit was not going to be involved, her superiors would not know.

My daughter was in Iraq until she was wounded and lost an eye this summer. She was a medic in an MP unit. If it was a blanket order, she would have known about it.

[Eye and Monkey]

20. Plenty o' time to become Fundie, saved, and resurrected like Chuck Colson

[JusticeForAll]

22. I still take a whole different tack on this story

I know what the accused troops have done is sick and wrong, but isn't the whole environment and conditions they have been subjected to, also been absolutely and abhorrently sick as well?

I definitely want her and the others to serve time, maybe in a prison...but definitely under lots of supervised counseling, therapy, and rehabilitation. The people who committed the acts we have seen and heard need some serious help.

Rehabilitation seems compassionate to me...imprisonment seems like the tidy, easy solution to a tough invasive problem.

What do I know...

[AuntPatsy]

25. They were told these people were the enemy and deserved no

mercy, after 9/11 many hated the middle easterners, many still do, I have heard people say they get what they deserve since they have been killing each other for years, like no American has ever been guilty of such, it boggles my mind, I'm sorry but I feel for her, she is nothing more than a scapegoat, granted the pictures make me honestly ill and I cannot for the life of me understand how a female could behave in such a disgusting way but we must take into consideration how our own government wanted our troops to hate the enemy, to believe otherwise is staying blind..

Like others on here, I feel the higher ups should be held accountable as well, and I mean the way higher ups, we have a pres who laughed and made jokes about not finding wmds like it just didn't matter, how are our troops supposed to feel when their commander in chief makes light of innocents getting killed and that is exactly what he did...

I for one hope she gets counseling definately, but jail time? No, I think she has suffered enough under all this scrunity and her face will haunt her and us the rest of her life, that in itself is a jail sentence...

[w4rma]

26. Notice that her superiors aren't getting jail time. They'll give the same

orders to a new scape goat down the road, unless they are ousted and punished right now.

The problem is that her superiors got their orders directly from Rumsfield and that is why her superiors are being protected from a court martial by the White House.

[saigon68]

34. England is typical of today's volunteer army

Lots of ignorance, bums and bullies recruited to kill and abuse the ragheads.

as one Marine poster here so aptly put--- "we kill, because we are Marines".

Graner and the boys did so much so this shit and I believe they were ordered to do it, that their fear of disclosure at commiting criminal acts was out weighed by that their arrogance, which led to photography.

Those pictures were ultimately their downfall.

Who by the by and by took them ?

[Carolab]

30. Gee, Lynndie

it was sure fun while it lasted, right? Bet you're not smiling now, you nasty little piece of white trash. Oh, and I hope they send you to one of Ahnold's prisons, where you can't smoke any cigarettes, and where the guards will be taking souvenir snapshots of YOU in a human hogpile. Good riddance.

[molly]

38. Exactly - but let's see if she's willing to make a "deal"

[951]

31. I hope she gets it so her kid can make a good life of him/herself.

Send that ugly product of incest dog in the deepest hole where it cant be seen again ever or become a fox news consultant.

[Carolab]

32. Nice glam shot of Pam

...she sure looks like s**t without makeup.

[daleo]

35. Focussing on Ms. England is like going after Col. Klink

or Sgt. Shultz of Hogan's Heroes after World War 2 (if they were real people) and letting Hitler et al skate.

[RivetJoint]

39. I hope she serves

at least five years in Leavenworth.

[Bridget Burke]

41. And what about those above her?

The ones who started certain procedures for handling prisoners at Guantanamo? The ones who decided that was a good pattern to use in Iraq?

Should they go free?

[RivetJoint]

42. The ones who are found guilty of

offenses should be punished accordingly. No problem with that whatesoever.