Keep Cuba sanctions, Democratic presidential candidate Kerry says

[Osolomia]

Mon, Sep. 01, 2003
BY PETER WALLSTEN
Miami Herald

Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, a Democratic candidate for president who has campaigned heavily in Florida for cash and votes, appeared to shift his stance on the trade embargo with Cuba on Sunday, telling a national television audience that he now supports keeping sanctions in place.

Kerry's remarks, delivered on NBC's Meet the Press, seemed to contradict statements he made during a 2000 interview with The Boston Globe that a reevaluation of the embargo was ''way overdue'' and that the only reason Cuba has been treated differently than China and Russia is the ``politics of Florida.''

Kerry on Sunday called that ''an honest statement,'' but when NBC's Tim Russert asked whether he endorsed lifting sanctions he replied: ``Not unilaterally, not now, no.''

The Massachusetts senator, who has met privately over the past year with exile leaders, said Sunday that he would support easing travel restrictions, though he was vague about how to do it and whether he was referring to tourism. He also said he might consider allowing more money to be sent to dissidents.

More...
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/6666091.htm

[OldSoldier]

1. Unilaterally my ass

The United States is the onlycountry in the world that has sanctions against Cuba.

[Muddleoftheroad]

6. So?

That doesn't make it wrong? Perhaps we can start a trend to put sanctions on dictatorships.

[guajira]

31. The Sanction is Not Against Castro, Muddle - It's Against YOU!!!!

Castro can travel all over the world, you're the one who's banned from traveling to Cuba!!

Same with the embargo - it's American businesses who are being banned from trading with Cuba!!

And all because of a banana-bunch of hate-motivated Batistianos in Miami!!!

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. Not against me

because I am for it. Refusing to have dealings with a repressive state is perfectly within the approved purview of government. Yes, the bunch in Miami hates Castro. Probably has something to do with him killing their families and such. Go figure.

[bread_and_roses]

38. and when any of these hypocrites

propose the same sanctions against Saudi Arabia and Israel I'll believe that their stance has anything to do with principle, even if wrong-headed. This type of sanction hurts ordinary people far more than the people in power. We could maybe start out by not selling arms and giving money to torturing dictators around the world instead of singling out the Cuban people?

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. Saudi Arabia

I'd love to see sanctions against them. And I would also cut back on arms sales. But by allowing Castro to stay in power, the Cuban people accept the negative result.

[Zhade]

201. That's flawed.

If we can all agree that Castro is a ruthless dictator, then how does it follow that the Cuban people "allow" him to remain in power? They don't have much of a choice without rising up against him!

[Vogon_Glory]

86. I Agree With Guajira: The Sanctions Are Against US Citizens

Let's face it, kids, the US Treasury Department regulations prohibiting US citizens from non-Cuban backgrounds traveling to Cuba without US licenses are aimed at the rest of US citizenry. Such restrictions are a restriction on the rights and liberties of US citizens and should be repealed. That Senator Kerry should vocate that these restrictions to continue is shameful.

I have no love for Castro or the current regime in Cuba. Lifting the travel restrictions may heighten Fidel's cash flow, but it would also further the opportunities for other US citizens to bring in books and magazines full of new ideas to prepare Cubans resident in Cuba for the post-Communist era.

[Kbowe]

25. Kerry and Dean now off my list of candidate....

Any leader of this country who believe it is ok to starve and sanction innocent people won't get my vote. PERIOD!!!

[ClintonTyree]

2. Kerry has more..............

waffles than Eggo lately. Talk about someone reinventing themself on the fly...........

[coralrf]

87. Reinventing....

where did you get that word? It comes from the GOP and they have beaten you into using it against a Democrat....when will we learn.

Read the damn article. It is a winger diatribe full of "it seems". "appears" and so forth. IF you READ that tripe you will see its only purpose is to paint Kerry a flip-flopper, a GOP mainstay that Democrats fall for all too often.

Kerry says that the political influence of the Cubans in South Florida has too much an impact on US Cuban policy. He is right. That does not mean that he is opposed to all that they want. This winger authors spin this point and we buy it.

Its done like this:

"John Kerry, a Democratic candidate for president who has campaigned heavily in Florida for cash and votes"

....get it? He is one of those damn Democrats that campaigns and raises funds. And he DID IT IN FLORIDA!!!!

I live in Florida and Kerry has not put in an overtime effort here. He is not here now but this author wants you to think he is and that is the purpose for this gratuitous verbiage. '''He is in Florida and changing his stance on an important issue here to get votes and money'''. That is what you are to believe but it cannot be written as it is not true.


"appeared to shift his stance on the trade embargo"

If he had done that you would see not see qualified innuendo about it but brazen 'FLIP FLOPPER !!!!' in Red Caps on the front page.

"seemed to contradict statements he made during a 2000 interview with The Boston Globe that a reevaluation of the embargo was ''way overdue''"

Did he do it or 'seem' to do it. Where does this wingnut author write that Kerry in the past stated he wanted to drop the embargo? Do you think this guy just omitted that in error? He cannot write that because he cannot source it. Kerry said a 'reevaluation' not a 'discontinuance' of the embargo was in order.

"that he would support easing travel restrictions, though he was vague about how to do it and whether he was referring to tourism"

A classic. Travel is travel. This author knows that and he knows how to spin. He just had to get the word 'vague' in there and that is how he did it.

Let me try it: Kerry said he loves fresh fruit but was 'vague' about bananas and made no comment at all about how good American fruit is. Heyyyyyyyyyyy Kerry is unpatriotic.

So often you see the Dems on DU getting hoodwinked by a post that is intended to do just that. We have in fact become a 'focus group' for the GOP. If it works here you can be sure it will be seen on a much larger level. Please learn to read the media. Look for qualifiers : "seems" "appears" "gives the impression" as journalistic ethic requires such modifiers prior to lies. Look for gratuitous phrases, "Senator Kerry a Vietnam protestor made clear his love of fruits today" as they more than anything point out the real intention of the author.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

89. Thank you for an intelligent post.

You have renewed my faith that there are people in this world capable of critical reading and thinking.

[karmadogma]

159. Eye - openning critique - thanks

Thanks. It's so easy to read and not challenge the unwritten insinuations. Journalists want people to read what they write; even without a political agenda they will 'sex up' a story with unsubstantiated implications, as you so well illustrated.

[Zhade]

202. Welcome to DU karmadogma!

:hi:

[bluestateguy]

3. Appeasment of Angry Cubans in Florida

And it won't work. No Democrat will ever win a contest with Republicans over who can hate Castro more. The dwindling numbers of the Cold Warriors of South Beach will just sort of snicker and still vote for Bush. Fortunately, the younger generation of Cubans seems to realize that it's not 1962 anymore and is not preoccupied with exile politics.

[MrPrax]

15. Good Point...

The Florida 'reactionaries' will still vote GOP and so why cater...
Maybe 'other' Dems should make this hideous oversight and 'hypocrisy' an issue the other way...
Clinton BTW reversed himself...
He was opposed to the sanctions on the 'trail' and then switch after meeting with the 'exiles' to get cash...
The War Room documented this--a textbook case of 'bait and switch'

[eablair3]

4. Where does Kucinich stand on this?

I saw that Dean is in favor of the embargo etc on Cuba, and Kerry is too.

Where does Kucinich stand on this?

[Catch22Dem]

5. Does anyone have a list

of where ALL of the candidates stand? If so, please include Clark, if he's stated an opinion. I'll go do some looking myself.

[TreasonousBastard]

19. Here's a few.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/politics/6418932.htm

"While Lieberman is a supporter of the trade embargo with Cuba and has a history of close ties with exile leaders, his comments Tuesday underscored a broader push by national Democrats -- and several of the party's other presidential hopefuls -- to appeal to an unlikely voting bloc that could help them take Florida's critical 27 electoral votes next year."

Clark: http://slate.msn.com/id/2076528/

"He's on the record as opposing the trade embargo with Cuba, for example, but that's the sort of issue a presidential candidate can easily back off from if need be."


http://www.issues2000.org/2004/Dennis_Kucinich_Foreign_Policy.htm

"Voted YES on keeping Cuba travel ban until political prisoners released.
Stop enforcing travel restrictions on US citizens to Cuba, only after the president has certified that Cuba has released all political prisoners, and extradited all individuals sought by the US on charges of air piracy, drug trafficking and murder."

http://www.issues2000.org/2004/Bob_Graham_Foreign_Policy.htm

Voted YES on Strengthening of the trade embargo against Cuba.

[bread_and_roses]

7. This is so depressing

if true...do any of these guys have a spine? or a brain? or anything resembling an ethical stance on anything? and Dems wonder why people vote green, or don't vote. Go ahead, fire away, but I get more disillusioned by the day in this campaign.

[IndianaGreen]

9. Whoring to the Cuban vote in Florida

Why don't they also whore themselves to the homophobic vote, to be consistent in their idiocy?

[userdave2061]

116. Because anti-communism and homosexuality have nothing in common

At least sex with the partner of your choice has a hope of a good outCOME the fruits of communism are all handed over to the dictator in charge with not even a kiss or a ride home from the party.

Unless you're an annointed member of the corrupt elite.

[IndianaGreen]

144. Our CANF friends are homophobes and anti-Semites

and want to replace Castro with a fundamentalist Opus Dei government.

[Tinoire]

47. KUCINICH on Cuba

H.R. 2138 (2001)- Bridges to the Cuban People Act. A bill to provide the people of Cuba with access to food and medicines from the United States, to ease restrictions on travel to Cuba, to provide scholarships for certain Cuban nationals, and for other purposes.

H.R. 230 (1999)- Cuban Humanitarian Trade Act: A bill to allow for trade with Cuba on food, medicine, and medical supplies. Freedom to Travel to Cuba Act of 2000: A bill to change law to allow for free travel to Cuba.

----------------------------------------
From his official campaign site:

Cuba ttp://www.kucinich.us/issues/issue_cuba.htm

END THE EMBARGO ON CUBA

Our policy toward Cuba has failed. More than four decades of a unilateral embargo and persistently hostile and aggressive rhetoric and actions from successive administrations have created only misery for the Cuban people and have hurt, not helped, U.S. interests at large.

Common sense dictates that we pursue a policy of normalizing relations with Cuba. A Kucinich Administration will work for repeal of the Helms-Burton Act and the immediate lifting of the trade embargo.

A Kucinich Administration will take several steps to restoring a more humane and effective policy toward this important neighbor:

1. Support normal bilateral trade with Cuba. Farm communities throughout the U.S. are being denied a natural market in Cuba, and Americans are being denied products from Cuba.

2. Restore Americans' freedom to travel to Cuba. Our government's travel ban violates the Constitutionally-guaranteed freedom of movement.

3. Work to repeal the Cuban Adjustment Act, which has encouraged smuggling and put lives at risk -- and has reinforced arbitrary and unequal immigration policies.

4. Support increased national security cooperation with Cuba.

----------------------------------------
Kucinich calls for end to embargo on Cuba

Democratic Presidential hopeful Dennis Kucinich would work to open up trade with Cuba and kill or greatly reform NAFTA and the World Trade Organization if he were elected.

“We need to open up new markets for farmers,” he said Monday in Davenport. “We need to open up Cuba.”

http://havanajournal.com/business_comments/A315_0_4_0_C/

-----

DEAN VS. DENNIS ON CUBA: More Embargo vs. Immediate End

The Kucinich position is clear: "Our policy toward Cuba has failed. More than four decades of a unilateral embargo and persistently hostile and aggressive rhetoric and actions from successive administrations have created only misery for the Cuban people and have hurt, not helped, U.S. interests at large. A Kucinich Administration will work for repeal of the Helms-Burton Act and the immediate lifting of the trade embargo."

Meanwhile the Miami Herald reported on Tuesday that "Howard Dean says he is shifting his views on the trade embargo with Cuba...Dean said he supports rolling back the embargo in order to encourage human rights advancements -- but citing Fidel Castro's recent crackdowns on dissidents, says that in recent months he has become convinced that 'we can't do it right now.'"

http://www.muhajabah.com/muslims4kucinich/archives/006413.php

----------------------------------------


by Michael W. Stowell
August 18, 2003


What will you do, Americans, will you elect Dennis Kucinich? Will you demand that his voice be heard, will you take your voices out into the streets and shout loud and clear, for all to hear, will you exercise your right of free speech? Now, America and Americans, will you put partisanship out of your minds and unite for the common good? Will you change the course of history?

Then what will you do, America, after you've elected President Kucinich; what will you do with those who've supported Bush and his tenders? What do you have in mind for those in Congress, and those in your courts? Show them the door? Escort them out?

And what will you do with the money that you no longer give to Israel? What will become of the death camps in Palestine, who will clean them up? Who will rebuild Palestine for the Palestinian people and their new Palestinian state?

What will you Americans do about the destitution that you left behind in that country your government disappeared, Yugoslavia? Can you afford all the reparations? How about some bread? Some bakeries? Some medicine? Some books?

Now what will you do, America, now that you've opened your borders and lifted the sanctions on Cuba? Will you invite the Cuban people to a celebration? Will you throw a great party in Washington D. C. and invite the whole country of Cuba, and provide safe passage?

When you Americans finally take charge of your government, I imagine you'll have plans for Cheney and Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and the rest. Don't forget about Poppy Bush, though, send him to a prison farm that has chickens to keep, it will be good therapy, for all of us.

<snip>

Will you open your prison doors and release your political prisoners? Will you end the barbarity of capital punishment? Will you tear down your prison/industrial complex and start building some schools? Will you support an international court that has the authority to prosecute your leaders and military if they commit crimes?

When?

You can do this America, but only you can do this. I would love to see people from around the world sending money to help you elect Dennis Kucinich, and I am sure they would if they could. However, if you do not have significant money to give, or even if you do, money is a small part of it when everyone takes the time to do what is necessary.

What will you do, America?


Michael W. Stowell is a local activist in Northern California.
http://www.swans.com/ A site well worth a visit!!!

[Forkboy]

48. DK is the man with a plan!

:thumbsup:

[Judi Lynn]

138. Tinoire, I was late in seeing this great post.

I am SO glad to see Dennis Kucinich's perception of what has to be done.

Not only does he deal with the embargo, and the travel ban, he ALSO addresses that vile Cuban Adjustment Act, which is almost totally unfamilar to most people, yet which has caused so MUCH hardship, and is so WILDLY wrong.

Thanks for getting those crucial points right where we need to see them.

[Osolomia]

8. This Thursday the House is expected to vote on lifting travel ban

For the past 3 years in a row a BIPARTISAN MAJORITY has voted to lift the travel ban. This year they're expected to get a VETO PROOF majority!

But all of the 2004 Dem presidential candidates are ignoring the will of the majority and bending over backwards to kiss the feet of a tiny extremist right wing minority of hatemongers in Miami-Dade.

Spineless Dems have no one to blame but themselves for remaining trade and travel banned and the laughingstock of the world for many more years to come at this rate:

snip/...

.. Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, one of the leading Democratic contenders, has expressed concerns about Cuba's human rights record. He is also reportedly reconsidering his past opposition to the current U.S. embargo on trade and travel with Cuba in light of Fidel Castro's crackdown on dissidents this year. Because of the crackdown, which included dozens of arrests and long prison sentences for dissidents and independent journalists, Dean said the U.S should not seek to improve relations with the island.

Other Democratic candidates, including Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry and North Carolina Sen. John Edwards, have met with Cuban-American leaders and are said to be considering the issue. Already, three Democratic presidential candidates -- Florida Sen. Bob Graham, Sen. Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut and Rep. Richard Gephardt of Missouri -- are embargo supporters and allies of powerful groups in the Cuban-American community.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/miami/sfl-0829acuba30,0,702523.story?coll=sfla-news-miami

[Catch22Dem]

10. List

O = Opposes embargo
K = Keep embargo in place

Clark - O
Kucinich - O
Dean - K
Sharpton - O
Kerry - K
Lieberman - K (and tighten it)
Edwards - O (I think)
Mosley-Braun - O (I think)
Graham - K

[BayCityProgressive]

12. Ugh

This really pisses me off. Why are the Democrats continuing to use global terrorism?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

11. No contradiction here

According to the article, Kerry said in 2000 that the embargo needed to be reevaluated, and on Sunday, he describe his opinion on that reevaluation, that the sanctions should not be unilaterally lifted, but that travel restrictions should be eased, and perhaps allowing more money to be sent to dissident.

In other words, Kerry is following up with some specifics to his earlier statement.

Like so many issues, it's more complicated than simply, "for or against" the embargo. But a lot of folks have trouble with shades of gray. Perhaps some took his 2000 statement that the embargo needed to be reevaluated as meaning it should be lifted. But anyone who has paid attention to Kerry will realize that he chooses his words carefully and if he wanted to say it should be lifted, he would have said that. Instead, he said what he meant - as always - that it needed to be reevaluated.

Whether or not you agree with Kerry that the embargo should be reevaluated, or if you think he is not going far enough, is one thing. But the article uses some fuzzy reasoning to imply that Kerry is contradicting himself when in fact he is being entirely consistent.

[BayCityProgressive]

13. In other words

sending money to terrorists. Unilaterally? PLEASE..we are the only country with an embargo.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

14. In other words

I can't make sense of your post. Just who are the terrorists you are talking about? What does your post mean? Perhaps a few more explanatory sentences would help those who don't share your preconceived opinions to understand what you are saying.

[BayCityProgressive]

16. The terrorists

are the Miami Cuban mob that is funded with tens of millions of our tax dollars. They have killed Americans and Cubans, used car bombs in Florida, and set fire to buildings. They pressure politicians into siding with them. Im glad my tax dollars are going to Al Qaeda lite.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

21. 'Terrorists' 'mob' 'car bombs' ?

Wow, maybe you should call the police and the newspapers. Sounds like there is some serious stuff going on that isn't making it into the news. I'd love to hear more details. Please share some references with us. You seem to be in possesion of some information that I don't have but I'm always willing to become more informed. I'd especially like to hear how my tax dollars are being used to build car bombs that kill Americans in Florida.

[guajira]

32. Here are Some examples of Miami Cuban Terrorism

Here is the beginning of a list that all Americans should be aware of:

snippet:
1968 From MacArthur Causeway, pediatrician Orlando Bosch fires bazooka at a Polish freighter. (City of Miami later declares "Orlando Bosch Day." Federal agents will jail him in 1988.)

1972 Julio Iglesias, performing at a local nightclub, says he wouldn't mind "singing in front of Cubans." Audience erupts in anger. Singer requires police escort. Most radio stations drop Iglesias from playlists. One that doesn't, Radio Alegre, receives bomb threats.

1974 Exile leader José Elias de la Torriente murdered in his Coral Gables home after failing to carry out a planned invasion of Cuba.

1974 Bomb blast guts the office of Spanish-language magazine Replica.

1974 Several small Cuban businesses, citing threats, stop selling Replica.

1974 Three bombs explode near a Spanish-language radio station.

1974 Hector Diaz Limonta and Arturo Rodriguez Vives murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1975 Luciano Nieves murdered after advocating peaceful coexistence with Cuba.

1975 Another bomb damages Replica's office.

1976 Rolando
more.....

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2000-04-20/mullin.html/1/index.html

[Feanorcurufinwe]

37. 1968? 1972? 1974? 1975? Do you have anything from this century?

And the point that BayCityProgressive was making was: "The terrorists are the Miami Cuban mob that is funded with tens of millions of our tax dollars. They have killed Americans and Cubans, used car bombs in Florida, and set fire to buildings. They pressure politicians into siding with them. Im glad my tax dollars are going to Al Qaeda lite."

So what I am interested in is the current (as in, 2003) US government funding that is going to terrorist making car bombs and killing Americans. Is this true? Or not?

[Judi Lynn]

39. You can start you own search here

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Miami+Cuban+exile+terrorism

There are 7,610 entries for Miami Cuban exile terrorism.

It's better that you spend some time reading and informing yourself than harrassing posters about it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

40. I'm just asking the poster to back up the inflammatory statements he made.

Specifically, BayCityProgressive said that the US Government is funding terrorists making car bombs and killing Americans.


Are you saying the burden is on me to DISPROVE such an inflammatory statement, not on the poster to offer at least some shred of corroboration? Why would I work to disprove this, when I don't know whether it is true or not? The person who made the statement must think it's true. Why?

What is the funding?
Who gets it?
What terrorist acts have the groups who receive this funding commited?

Is it really harrassment to ask for simple facts and references to back up the assertion that:

"The terrorists are the Miami Cuban mob that is funded with tens of millions of our tax dollars. They have killed Americans and Cubans, used car bombs in Florida, and set fire to buildings."

What is the basis for this statement? You think I should have to search through 7610 entries in the hopes that somewhere among them is corroboration? Wouldn't it make more sense for the person who made the assertion to explain the facts behind it?

I'd like to have the facts because if this is true then I would like to write my Senators and Congressman to express my disapproval of this policy.

[Osolomia]

42. 2003 U.S. Funding for Transition in Cuba

http://ciponline.org/cuba/humanrights/USfunding.htm

There's nothing new about any of this, it's been well documented for years as has the terrorism committed by the "exile" groups receiving this taxpayers money.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

43. There is nothing in that link that says anything about terrorist groups,

car bombs, murdering Americans, or setting fire to buildings.

I'm asking, AGAIN, what group is receiving US funds that is committing these terrorist acts?


http://ciponline.org/cuba/humanrights/USfunding.htm


"it's been well documented for years as has the terrorism committed by the "exile" groups receiving this taxpayers money."


If it is so well documented it should be easy for you to provide a reference.

[Osolomia]

46. The "exiles" in Miami receiving the funds have a long history of terrorism

that is very well documented. Links have been provided to you, read them.

Here's another quickie for you:

Cuba & Terrorism: Resources for Informed Judgment
http://www.giraldilla.com/Terror_Docs/Cuba-CIP-10-11-01.htm

[Feanorcurufinwe]

49. Your references do not back up what you are saying.

Yes, bombings and murders have been committed by Cuban exiles. However, nothing in the links that have been provided indicates that any US government funding is going to any group that supports terrorism.

If you disagree with my assessment, please tell me which group it is that received money that supports terrorism. Or is it just 'all Cuban exiles are terrorists' - sort of like 'all arabs are terrorists'?


Interestingly enough, the last link you provided actually has nothing to do with this issue, instead it is about whether or not Cuba is a state sponsor of terrorism. Did you think I wouldn't read it or something?

[Osolomia]

60. Obvioulsy you didn't bother to read it

The author btw was US ambassador in Cuba during the Carter administration and is one of the most credible experts on the topic.

The section titled "Forty years of exile terrorism" mentions CANF funding and is just one quickie example.

Surely you do not expect the US government or the "exiles" to admit that they're funding terrorism do you?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

67. So you are admitting that you have no evidence to back your assertion?

Can you name one link between government funding of Cuban exile groups and terrorist actions or not?



ps. - you seem to be relying on the idea that no one is going to read the whole article but anyone who does will see that it does not back your assertion. At all. It is about whether or not Cuba is a state sponsor of terrorism. It also mentions some terrorist acts committed by Cuban exiles. It in no way says, implies, or hints that the US government is funding any group that sponsors terrorism.


You seem to think I am on 'the other side' from you in some argument. Whereas actually I am just asking for corroboration that the US government is really involved in this horrible policy it is being accused of.

Honestly, this issue is not one I've given much attention till today, but I just hate sloppy reasoning and assertions that are not based on facts. If it is true that the government is supporting terrorist acts in Florida or Cuba I would work to end that support but I haven't seen any evidence that that is so.

[Mika]

70. The US NED fund the CANF, they fund(ed) terrorists. Oh, and the CIA

Goto post 63 for some snips of below links

A BOMBER'S TALE
http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/americas/071298cuba-plot.html


TERRORIST CONNECTIONS RESURFACE IN FLORIDA
http://www.rprogreso.com/RPWeekly062702/usfranklinTerroristConnection062702.htm

[Osolomia]

71. Yes, as the US Ambassador said: CANF for one!

You need to connect the dots yourself.

Take the list of "exile" organizations that recieved funding in 2003 that I have already provided to you.

Go to their websites and find out who their Board of Directors are.

Google search those names and you'll find more than you ever wanted to know!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

78. It is YOUR case to make

if you want to argue your point, you'd better connect the dots yourself. MAKE the argument. State the facts that you assert back up your position. Provide the references. Just saying that these references exist 'somewhere on google' - is useless. I could assert to you that the moon is made of green cheese and if you search google for 'moon' and 'green cheese' you will more than you ever wanted to know - was that very convincing?



My take on it, is that some Cuban exiles are good, some are evil. Some have worked in appropriate ways to defeat Castro, some have worked in evil ways. The US government has probably supported both the good and the evil groups at different times. My hope is that the government is not supporting any evil at the present. If it is I would like to know about it.

[Mika]

81. BREAKTHROUGH!! "some Cuban exiles are good, some are evil"

"My take on it, is that some Cuban exiles are good, some are evil. Some have worked in appropriate ways to defeat Castro, some have worked in evil ways. The US government has probably supported both the good and the evil groups at different times."

<sarcasm on> THEN PROVE IT! <sarcasm off>



Yep. I think that some of the posters have been mentioning the "evil" ones. Yep. They're the ones many posters have been objecting to.


I'm not going to make the case for you, but IF you are interested, beyond making a stab at a "take', you might want to look up some of those names, and CORU + Posada , CORU + Bosch , CORU + Bush , "operation mongoose" and go from there.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

84. Again, you say there are references, but don't provide them.

yawn

Does the the US Government fund car bombings, killing Americans, or setting fire to buildings in Florida or Cuba? If you say yes, please provide a reference to back those assertions.

[Mika]

88. Yawn x2

Sorry Feanorcurufinwe, you'll have to draw your own picture, and connect the large dots yourself. Can't do your homework for you.

Just click these links below. There's more than enough to entertain your interests, if you really are interested.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Milian+%2B+bomb+%2B+Miami&spell=1

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=CORU+%2B+Posada&btnG=Google+Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=CORU+%2B+Bosch&btnG=Google+Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=CORU+%2B+Bush&btnG=Google+Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22operation+mongoose%22&btnG=Google+Search

[Feanorcurufinwe]

90. None of those links describe any current US funding of

car bombings, killing Americans, or setting fire to buildings. As you must well know.

[Mika]

92. Its got to be CURRENT, now?

Shifting the goal posts I see.

Sorta like the Bushies now saying that they're looking for evidence of Iraq's WMD programs.


Yeah, like the US publishes its current planing, action on, or funding of secret ops. :crazy:



Why don't you just go through some of the links that people have posted on some of the patterns of past US/Miamicuban "exile' terra activity? Since there are no published stats or articles on CURRENT ops, you'll have to come to your own conclusions.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

93. Look I am not against you or your cause!

Why can't you understand that!

This statement was posted:

"The terrorists are the Miami Cuban mob that is funded with tens of millions of our tax dollars. They have killed Americans and Cubans, used car bombs in Florida, and set fire to buildings."


and I am asking whether it is true! I'm not asking what happened in the past, or whether other bad things have happened! I'm trying to find out it the US government is really funding (yes, present tense) a terrorist mob that has "killed Americans and Cubans, used car bombs in Florida, and set fire to buildings."

But it sounds like the original poster, who hasn't bothered to respond, was just labelling the Cuban exile community in general as a terrorist mob. Then a bunch of people have tried to convince me that terrorism has been committed by Cuban exiles. GUESS WHAT? I DON'T NEED CONVINCING OF THAT! I'm just concerned with whether or not the US government is funding groups that sponsor terrorism. It's clear after 50 posts that the answer that some give is "we don't know but we think so". And the only evidence to back up this idea is the fact that some Cuban exiles have committed terrorist acts, mostly, many years ago.

Today I am extra glad that I live in Montana.

[Osolomia]

98. What do you think the US gov't funds to "exiles" and "dissidents" is for?

Can you say "regime change"?

You're going to have another Iraq just 90 miles offshore if Dems don't smarten up fast and put a leash on Bush and the pResidential wannabees. Just watch!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

102. Why don't you just state your real agenda, whatever it is?

Obviously you have some axe to grind and this is an important issue to you, one that you have firm, unwavering opinions about. You see the issue as having 'sides' and you know which side you are on. Why don't you tell us all about it? Some of us are just voters trying to make the right choices who have no vested interest in, or preconceived opinions about, these issues. This is your chance to inform. If you wish to use that chance to make condescending comments and belittle those who are asking for information, that's your choice.

[Osolomia]

109. Excuse me?

It’s up to you to decide for yourself whether using food and medicines as weapons is immoral and unethical or not.

It’s up to you to decide for yourself whether it is immoral and unethical for US taxpayers to be financing “dissidents” in Cuba or not.

It’s up to you to decide for yourself whether it is immoral and unethical for US taxpayers to be financing “exiles” in Florida or not.

It’s up to you to decide for yourself whether it is immoral and unethical for well known terrorists to be freely walking the streets of Miami.

It’s up to you to decide for yourself whether it is immoral and unethical for US presidential candidates to take campaign contributions from organizations with known links to terrorism.

It’s up to you to decide for yourself whether it is immoral and unethical for the US government to plot regime change in Cuba or elsewhere.

It’s up to you to decide for yourself whether it is immoral and unethical for the US government to restrict the freedom to travel of US citizens and residents.

It’s up to you to read the links and take the advice that was given to you to do your own research on the links between US government funding of “exile” and "dissident" organizations and those involved in terrorism and connect the dots and judge for yourself.

Meet the cast of characters that were at a Bush fundraiser last year for example then follow the money:
http://www.lanacioncubana.homestead.com/Twentyeight.html

[Feanorcurufinwe]

112. I've asked you to explain your view of these issues - you've declined. OK.

[Osolomia]

113. Nonsense, you said for wanted to be informed, not opinionated

But if you must have this no brainer spelled out for you:

I think is immoral and unethical to use food and medicines as weapons .

I think it is immoral and unethical for US taxpayers to be financing “dissidents” in Cuba.

I think it is immoral and unethical for US taxpayers to be financing “exiles” in Florida.

I think it is immoral and unethical for well known terrorists to be freely walking the streets of Miami.

I think it is immoral and unethical for US presidential candidates to take campaign contributions from organizations with known links to terrorism.

I think it is immoral and unethical for the US government to plot regime change in Cuba.

I think it is immoral and unethical for the US government to restrict the freedom to travel of US citizens and residents.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

115. Is this the way you try to educate people to your viewpoint?

By insulting them, preaching at them, and talking down to them? Without actually imparting any information? I wish all people with hate in their hearts could inhabit a private hell where they could hurt no one but each other but unfortunately they are sharing the world with all the rest of us.

[Mika]

121. You've been given many links. Now educate yourself

Is this the way you try to educate yourself, by repeatedly asking the same question over and over without looking through the hundreds of linked sources offered to you?

One of my elementary grade school teachers used to say to the class, "no one can do your homework for you, no one can do your reading for you". Its still true.


Contained in the aforementioned links is plenty of info relating to various Miamicuban "exile" terror ops in the US as well as abroad, and the organizations/persons providing the funding, many of whom are on the CIA, NED, & USAID payroll.


Feanorcurufinwe, now its up to you to do your homework, IF you are really interested (and, based on your refusal to do so, I'm beginning to think that you aren't).

[Feanorcurufinwe]

131. I have read every single one of those links.

They just don't back up the statement that:

"The terrorists are the Miami Cuban mob that is funded with tens of millions of our tax dollars. They have killed Americans and Cubans, used car bombs in Florida, and set fire to buildings. They pressure politicians into siding with them. Im glad my tax dollars are going to Al Qaeda lite."

It's as simple as that. This statement is a good example of what is wrong with political discourse in this country. All you would have to do to make your case is present some reasonable arguments as to why these groups shouldn't be funded (in fact I don't think they should). But instead you cling to this hyperbolic statement that is clearly nothing more than a blanket indictment of all exiles as a 'terrorist mob'. And then when asked for facts to back up the statement you go into immediate defense/attack mode, as if everyone who has a question is automatically 'against' you.

I'm being told to 'connect the dots' myself, and to 'do my homework' myself - I can read and I've read all the links provided. They just don't reveal this statement as true.

I think you should do some homework, in logic and critical thinking.

[Mika]

137. I didn't make that statement

This statement,

"The terrorists are the Miami Cuban mob that is funded with tens of millions of our tax dollars. They have killed Americans and Cubans, used car bombs in Florida, and set fire to buildings. They pressure politicians into siding with them. Im glad my tax dollars are going to Al Qaeda lite."

was not made by me. It was made by a poster who has not returned to this thread thus far.


For you to continue with your line,

"But instead you cling to this hyperbolic statement that is clearly nothing more than a blanket indictment of all exiles as a 'terrorist mob'."

.. as if this is the position of all of the posters who have pasted plenty of links for you to learn (or confirm) that there are terrorists within the Cuban-American community. There have been bombings, fire bombings, car bombings, murders, assassinations, both in the USA and abroad, perpetrated by groups of (but not all of) Miamicuban "exiles", that have received their funding from US government sources. That info is contained in the aforementioned google links. If you claim that that info isn't there, then -plain and simple- you're not reading.


But no one else who is discussing this with you, and who have provided links to you on terra perpetrated by some "exiles", has stated anything like the blanket indictment of all exiles that you are seeking absolute proof for in a single link.

Why don't you PM the poster who made the bombastic statement, instead of insisting that other posters are 'clinging to this hyperbolic statement' when they really aren't. You are.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

155. If you are not defending that statement then I have no argument with you.

[Osolomia]

126. Nonsense! If you want to cling to your deluded fantasies

and spin in the wind that’s your problem, just don’t expect those who do pay attention to what’s going on to support immoral and unethical policies.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

130. I don't have any 'deluded fantasies' about this issue.

In fact, I've never given it much thought and after this discussion I'm inclined to never give it another one. It just sounds like a bunch of folks who hate each other. The exiles hate Castro, you obviously hate the exiles, and I sincerely hope that mutual hatred doesn't hurt anymore innocent people than it already has.

[Osolomia]

136. Your persistent misinterpretations of what was said

is typical of Maimi gusanos who do not have a moral or ethical or intelligent leg to stand on.

Go ahead, keep you head in the sand about the embargo and what’s going on here and see were it gets you.

Just watch!

[Osolomia]

82. The embargo is evil

Using food and medicines as weapons is immoral and unethical and the whole world knows it except the USA's Democrats apparently.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

85. That may very well be true

but that doesn't mean that the US government is funding car bombs, killing Americans, or setting fire to buildings.

[Mika]

91. That doesn't. Other evidence suggests otherwise

Who? :o

Lil' ol 'murica wouldn't hurt a fly.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

95. Could you please point to the evidence that you are talking about

instead of just stating that it exists?

Evidence of what? What are you trying to say?

[userdave2061]

118. Lil' ol 'murica wouldn't hurt a fly.

Cite please.

[Osolomia]

96. That "may" be true?

So much for your criticial thinking skills! No wonder so many 2004 Dem candidates still support an immoral and unethical embargo.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

97. So I'm evil because I haven't formed an opinion on this subject?

[userdave2061]

117. "The embargo is evil"

Communism is evil. Nuff said.

[Judi Lynn]

128. N.E.D. contributes to C.A.N.F.

N.E.D. is purely taxpayers' money, and C.A.N.F. has directly paid terrorists, as testified by Luis Posada Carriles, bomber/ex-CIA/exile terrorist.

Here's one description of how the money travels from Congress to N.E.D., and is passed on to C.A.N.F.:

(snip) Since its establishment in 1981, the Cuban American National Foundation has been one of the most effective lobbies in Washington. Its extraordinary success in persuading Congress to underwrite a host of Castro-bashing activities is due in no small part to the lobby's lavish funding of the political campaigns of anti-Castro candidates, to slick propaganda and to a willingness to brand its opponents as Communist sympathizers.

While there is nothing particularly unusual about this style of Washington power-politics, the CANF has an unfair advantage that violates the spirit if not the letter of Federal law. Federal Election Commission records and other documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act indicate that the foundation's efforts to manipulate the debate on U.S.-Cuban relations and other issues are indirectly subsidized by taxpayers' dollars.

....The central figure in this hustle is Jorge Mas Canosa, founder and chair of the CANF....by both a quirk of circumstance and an effective carrot-and-stick strategy, Mas and his foundation were able to enlist the support of Rep. Dante Fascell, the powerful chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee....In 1983, Fascell was a member of the bipartisan study group that recommended the creation and Federal funding of the National Endowment for Democracy....When the NED opened its doors for business, Fascell was the first to direct its board, although he resigned a few months later after moving up to chair the House Foreign Affairs Committee. He continues as a member of the endowment's board.

One of the first grants awarded by the new endowment was to the Cuban American National Foundation 'to gather and disseminate information about the human rights situation in Cuba.' To date, the foundation has received a total of $390,000 in Federal funds from the NED.... During roughly the same time period, the political action committee created by CANF's directors has donated a nearly identical amount of money to the campaigns of scores of political candidates for Federal office, including Fascell.

...Because the Cuban American National Foundation and its PAC are separate legal entities with separate bank accounts, the Cuba lobby may not have technically violated . Obviously, when the CANF a windfall of NED grants to carry out activities that the foundation would have supported through internal channels, a greater percentage of its existing funds are freed up for use by the PAC.
(snip/...)

http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:tZztdWaIwz4J:www.us.net/cip/statemen.htm+Congress+%2B+N.E.D.+%2B+C.A.N.F.+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[Judi Lynn]

129. Waybe S. Smith, former U.S. head of Interests Section in Havana

was the subject of a lawsuit by C.A.N.F. head, Jorge Mas Canosa, concerning the same information. This article says the law suit will most likely be overturned on appeal:

(snip) SLAPPing Down the Debate Over Cuba
Right-Wing Exile Foundation in Florida Uses Defamation Suits
To Chill Criticism of Its Policies

By John S. Nichols
And Robert D. Richards

A panel of judges in Florida's Third District Court of Appeals is now considering the case of an outspoken retired diplomat who is seeking not only personal justice but also is fighting for a fundamental principle of democracy against an organization that seems bent on destroying free speech in the United States under the guise of establishing it in Cuba. While Smith vs. Cuban American National Foundation appears to be a routine defamation case in which Wayne S. Smith, former head of the U.S. diplomatic mission in Havana, is appealing a Miami jury's verdict against him, it actually is a complex web involving bare-knuckle Washington politics, an article in a national opinion magazine, and ultimately the First Amendment.

The combatants in the case are long-standing political adversaries in the contentious debate over U.S. foreign policy toward Cuba. In one corner is the Cuban American National Foundation, a tax-exempt foundation that represents the interests of the right wing of the Cuban exile community and is a strident opponent of the government of Fidel Castro. The late Jorge Mas Canosa, CANF's founder and chairman until his death from cancer earlier this year, was a veteran Castro hater who aspired to be the next president of Cuba. With the substantial financial backing from other wealthy exiled businessmen and a willingness to brand opponents as Communist sympathizers, Mas Canosa and his organization became feared and effective players in the corridors of power in Washington. The controversial Mas Canosa and other foundation leaders frequently appeared in the media or testified before congressional committees advocating tough measures against the Castro regime and have been extraordinarily successful in pushing both Republican and Democratic administrations to strengthen the U.S economic embargo on Cuba. Their goal, they contend, is to bring freedom and democracy to their homeland.

Equally vocal is Wayne Smith, formerly head of the Cuban desk at the State Department and of the U.S. Interests Section in Cuba until he retired from the foreign service in 1982, disgruntled with the Reagan Administration's confrontational approach to dealing with the Castro government. Smith, who now teaches at The Johns Hopkins University and is a fellow in a Washington think tank, the Center for International Policy, has since become a leading critic of U.S. policy toward Cuba and especially CANF's influence on that policy. He often writes for major newspapers and appears on television skewering Washington policymakers, Mas Canosa and others who he believes are blocking a rational dialogue over the Cuban problem.

That outspokenness is what got him in trouble, at least with Mas Canosa. in 1992 Smith was interviewed by filmmakers from the University of West Florida for a documentary titled "Campaign for Cuba," which aired on PBS that year. Smith's statements on that program formed the basis of CANF's lawsuit against him. In a 20-second sound bite, he summarized an article by John Spicer Nichols that appeared in The Nation in 1988. The article, titled "Cuba: The Congress; The Power of the Anti-Fidel Lobby," reported that the National Endowment for Democracy, a quasi-governmental institute that funnels U.S. tax dollars to projects intended to support democracy abroad, signed contracts with CANF from 1983-1988 awarding the foundation grants totalling $390,000 for the purpose of supporting a European organization also seeking to marshal opposition to the Castro government.


During that same period, the po-litical action committee associated- through interlocking directorships with CANF gave a nearly identical sum of contributions to political candidates. Among the candidates to receive a portion of this PAC money was then Congressman Dante Fascell, who introduced the legislation creating NED and later became a member of the NED board. As a board member, Fascell, whose congressional district in South Florida encompassed the headquarters for CANF and the homes of many of its leaders, voted for grants to CANF on at least three occasions. (snip/...)

http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/98-3NRfall98/Nichols_SLAPP.html

[Judi Lynn]

132. N.E.D. use of taxpayers' money

Trojan Horse
The National Endowment for Democracy

(snip...The NED was set up in the early 1980s under President Reagan in the wake of all the negative revelations about the CIA in the second half of the 1970s. The latter was a remarkable period. Spurred by Watergate -- the Church committee of the Senate, the Pike committee of the House, and the Rockefeller Commission, created by the president, were all busy investigating the CIA. Seemingly every other day there was a new headline about the discovery of some awful thing, even criminal conduct, the CIA had been mixed up in for years. The Agency was getting an exceedingly bad name, and it was causing the powers-that-be much embarrassment.

Something had to be done. What was done was not to stop doing these awful things. Of course not. What was done was to shift many of these awful things to a new organization, with a nice sounding name -- The National Endowment for Democracy. The idea was that the NED would do somewhat overtly what the CIA had been doing covertly for decades, and thus, hopefully, eliminate the stigma associated with CIA covert activities. (snip)


(snip) Thus it was that in 1983, the National Endowment for Democracy was set up to "support democratic institutions throughout the world through private, nongovernmental efforts". Notice the "nongovernmental" -- part of the image, part of the myth. In actuality, virtually every penny of its funding comes from the federal government, as is clearly indicated in the financial statement in each issue of its annual report. NED likes to refer to itself as an NGO (Non-governmental organization) because this helps to maintain a certain credibility abroad that an official US government agency might not have. But NGO is the wrong category. NED is a GO.
Allen Weinstein, who helped draft the legislation establishing NED, was quite candid when he said in 1991: "A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA."{1} In effect, the CIA has been laundering money through NED.(snip)

(snip) And between 1990 and 1992, the Endowment donated a quarter-million dollars of taxpayers' money to the Cuban-American National Foundation, the ultra-fanatic anti-Castro Miami group. The CANF, in turn, financed Luis Posada Carriles, one of the most prolific and pitiless terrorists of modern times, who was involved in the blowing up of a Cuban airplane in 1976, which killed 73 people. In 1997, he was involved in a series of bomb explosions in Havana hotels.{12}
The NED, like the CIA before it, calls what it does supporting democracy; the governments and movements whom the NED targets call it destabilization.{13} (snip/...)

http://lists.iww.org/pipermail/iww-news/2002-July/000085.html

[Judi Lynn]

134. Congress funding to NED to Cuban American National Foundation

(snip) The NED is supposedly a private, non-government, non-profit foundation, but it receives a yearly appropriation from the US Congress. The money is channelled through four core foundations. These are the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs (linked to the Democratic Party); the International Republican Institute (Republican Party); the American Center for International Labor Solidarity; and the Center for International Private Enterprise (US Chamber of Commerce).

According to its web site, the NED also gives money directly to groups abroad who are working for human rights, independent media, the rule of law, and a wide range of civil society initiatives.

The NED's NGO status provides the fiction that recipients of NED money are getting privaterather than US government money. This is important because so many countries, including both the US and Cuba, have laws relating to their citizens being paid to carry out activities for foreign governments.

The US requires an individual or organisation subject to foreign controlto register with the attorney general and to file detailed activities reports, including finances, every six months. (snip/...)

http://www.people-link.org/showupdates.php?upid=966

The author, Phillip Agee, is a former CIA employee.

[Judi Lynn]

135. Where does the Cuban American Nat'l Foundation get its money?

(snip) In March, the Scripps-Howard Foundation gave its Service to the First Amendment award to David Lawrence Jr., publisher of The Miami Herald, for a series of columns he wrote after Mas launched a campaign against the Herald and its sister publication, El Nuevo Herald, in January 1992. Lawrence had editorialized against the so-called Cuban Democracy Act. Designed by CANF, the legislation to tighten the U.S. trade embargo against Cuba was about to be introduced by Torricelli and Graham. Mas denounced the Herald as a tool of Fidel Castro. Death threats and bomb threats followed against Lawrence and other Herald executives. Newspaper vending machines were smeared with feces. Recognizing that it takes courage to disagree with Mas Canosa, the Scripps-Howard Foundation praised Lawrence's "brave, balanced reaction in the face of threats both to his life and to his profession."

Last August, Americas Watch and the Fund for Free Expression issued a report about abuse of human rights in Miami, documenting a campaign of intimidation and terror and criticizing U.S. Government "encouragement, primarily through funding, of groups that have been closely identified with efforts to restrict freedom of expression." The "principal example," says the report, is money granted to such groups as the Cuban American National Foundation, led by Jorge Mas Canosa. (snip)

(snip) When accused of buying influence, Mas responds repeatedly that the practice of U.S. democracy includes having a powerful lobby and being able to give "contributions" to political leaders. Where does CANF get its funds? First, it collects $5,000 to $10,000 (sometimes more) per year from its wealthy members. CANF also collects money from that same Congress to whose members it donates. In 1983, two years after the founding of CANF and at the initiative of the Reagan Administration, Congress created the National Endowment for Democracy to promote "democratic" institutions around the world. NED has contributed hundreds of thousands of dollars to CANF front groups--the European Coalition for Human Rights in Cuba, for example.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JBFranklins/canf.htm

[mitchtv]

44. I'd say public record is hardly inflamitory

read Du enough and the examples get posted again and again. the 70's is close enough for the relatives concerned to be still affected.There is no statute of limitations on murder.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

45. If the information is so available and easy to find, please post a link

Is the US Government funding terrorism in Cuba or Florida?

As someone who is opposed to my government funding terrorism, I would like to read about it if it is true. Please point me to some corroborating evidence. Thank you.

[guajira]

99. Obviously you didn't read my link - here is more of the article

As you can see, the firebombs just keep on coming!!!

snippet:
1994 Two firebombs explode at Replica magazine's office.

1994 Bomb threat to law office of Magda Montiel Davis following her videotaped exchange with Fidel Castro.

1996 Music promoter receives threatening calls, cancels local appearance of Cuba's La Orquesta Aragon.

1996 Patrons attending concert by Cuban jazz pianist Gonzalo Rubalcaba physically assaulted by 200 exile protesters. Transportation for exiles arranged by Dade County Commissioner Javier Souto.

1996 Firebomb explodes at Little Havana's Centro Vasco restaurant preceding concert by Cuban singer Rosita Fornes.

1996 Firebomb explodes at Marazul Charters, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1996 Arson committed at Tu Familia Shipping, which ships packages to Cuba.

1997 Bomb threats, death threats received by radio station WRTO-FM following its short-lived decision to include in its playlist songs by Cuban musicians.

1998 Bomb threat empties concert hall at MIDEM music conference during performance by 91-year-old Cuban musician Compay Segundo.

1998 Bomb threat received by Amnesia nightclub in Miami Beach preceding performance by Cuban musician Orlando "Maraca" Valle.

1998 Firebomb explodes at Amnesia nightclub preceding performance by Cuban singer Manolín.

1999 Violent protest at Miami Arena performance of Cuban band Los Van Van leaves one person injured, eleven arrested.

1999 Bomb threat received by Seville Hotel in Miami Beach preceding performance by Cuban singer Rosita Fornes. Hotel cancels concert.

January 26, 2000 Outside Miami Beach home of Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, protester displays sign reading, "Stop the deaths at sea. Repeal the Cuban Adjustment Act," then is physically assaulted by nearby exile crowd before police come to rescue.

April 11, 2000 Outside home of Elian Gonzalez's Miami relatives, radio talk show host Scot Piasant of Portland, Oregon, displays T-shirt reading, "Send the boy home" and "A father's rights," then is physically assaulted by nearby exile crowd before police come to rescue.
article:
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2000-04-20/mullin.html/1/index.html

[Feanorcurufinwe]

105. Actually I read the whole link. The only incidents from this century

are the last two, where 'crowds' of people assaulted individuals. Reprehensible but hardly examples of US government supported terrorism. There are other, more serious violent incidents listed farther in the past but nothing that tells me this is in some way related to US government funding. In fact this seems to be a long list of crimes, with no information as to who committed the crimes. Who are you blaming? How are these crimes connected to US funding of exile groups?

All have ever asked for in this discussion is evidence as to the truth of the statement:
"The terrorists are the Miami Cuban mob that is funded with tens of millions of our tax dollars. They have killed Americans and Cubans, used car bombs in Florida, and set fire to buildings."

Does this statement have some basis in fact, or is it nothing more than a blanket indictment of the entire Cuban exile community? Who specifically are (present tense) the Miami Cuban mob that is (present tense) funded with tens of millions of our tax dollars? Who is (present tense) receiving funding who has killed Americans and Cubans, used car bombs in Florida, and set fire to buildings?

[Osolomia]

206. “This century”? Ever see Frometal Jacket for example?

Straight from the terrorist’s mouth no less! Go figure!!!:
http://www.comandosf4.org/newspaper/2003-02-06.htm

or
Anti-Castro group claims shooting of spy in Cuba
The Miami Herald, December 31, 2002.
http://64.21.33.164/CNews/y02/dec02/31e4.htm

Funny how this guy was mentioned in that link I gave you in #109 about all the known Batistiano terrorists at a Bush fundraiser in Florida last year but now the link doesn’t work and even Google’s cache is blank. Go figure!!!

[Judi Lynn]

207. It's working now. I just reread it.

Glad it's still working. Information well worth pondering.

[seaglass]

22. I believe by unilaterally he meant not dropping all sanctions

at once. I don't think he is being inconsistent in his statement nor do I think that bargaining is such a bad idea.

[Osolomia]

17. Kerry 'might consider' sending MORE MONEY to DISSIDENTS

And Dems think Castro is evil for arresting these US government financed "dissidents" in Cuba?

With hypocritical democrats* like this who needs the repukes!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

23. Please explain this to me.

US Government funds dissident.

Castro arrests dissident.

Dem denounces Castro.

Dem is a hypocrite.



Where is the hypocrisy? Please explain.

[Osolomia]

26. So you support Al Qaida financing dissidents in the USA

with the intent of overthrowing the government?

So it's okay for Americans to arrest foreign financed dissidents interfering in their internal affairs and threatening their national security in this way but it's not okay for Cuba to do so?

Hypocrite!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. I support what I say I support, not the strawmen you make up for me

My question remains:

US Government funds dissident.

Castro arrests dissident.

Dem denounces Castro.

Dem is a hypocrite.



Where is the hypocrisy? Please explain. What is hypocritical about funding a dissident, and then condemning Castro for arresting that dissident.

Please note, the question at hand is not whether or not it is right to fund the dissident, but whether it is hypocritical to condemn Castro for arresting the dissident you are supporting. Is it really a hypocritical position or is it just a consistent position that you disagree with?

[sujan]

18. nothing new from Senator waffle

[mike_c]

20. what have sanctions against Cuba actually achieved...

...other than public relations in the U.S.? They certainly haven't weakened Castro's government, or raised much in the way of a counterrevolutionary movement-- as far as I'm aware dissidence in Cuba has very little to do with the U.S. economic embargo.

[Mika]

34. They have achieved a campaign funding platform

Without Castro there would be no "anti Castro" platform to milk for pandering politicians. Why deal with real issues in S Florida when there is always Castro to run against?

Dems are just as guilty of this fraud,

From opensecrets.org

[donsu]

24. No - Kerry sounds like a repug

on this issue. No more sanctions!

[pasadenaboy]

27. The dem candidates misread this issues

the former cubans in Florida who vote on this issue always vote republican, period.

They are not going to get their votes, regardless of their position.

Its such moral cowardice.

[BayCityProgressive]

29. "dissidents" in America funded by the middle east

are sent off to Gitmo! You don't expect the Cuban government to do the same? As a side note it was the court that tried them not Castro.

[Osolomia]

30. Cuban-Americans aren't solidly in Bush camp for 2004

By Rafael Lorente | Washington Bureau
August 31, 2003

WASHINGTON -- The Democratic Party and several of its presidential candidates are hoping to take advantage of the White House's recent troubles with Cuban-American voters in South Florida.

Stoked in part by Cuban-Americans angry with President Bush for not doing enough to end the four-decade rule of Fidel Castro, Democrats see an opportunity to cause trouble for the White House with a key constituency in a key state.

... Officials at the DNC headquarters in Washington said they have discussed the Bush administration's problems in South Florida, but are not sure yet how to take advantage. But Welch, the former spokesman for the Florida Democratic Party, knows firsthand how close the race was in 2000 and thinks his party can make the president pay closer attention to one of his key constituencies.

... The Bush administration has been under attack from Cuban-Americans in South Florida since U.S. officials returned 12 Cuban migrants, who were intercepted as they attempted to come to the United States in July, after getting assurances from Havana that they would not be executed and would receive prison sentences no longer than 10 years. The move, perceived in South Florida as negotiating with Fidel Castro, set off a community that for months had been quietly questioning what it was getting for its loyal support of Bush in the 2000 election.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/nationworld/orl-aseccubans31083103aug31,0,7658609.story?coll=orl-news-headlines

[guajira]

35. Democrats are Dreaming!!!

Miami Batistiano Repukes are threatening B* to get what they want (and they will!!).

If by some chance they wouldn't get their way, they would not swing to the Democratic Party, they would stay away from the polls or run their own Independent candidate.

If Dem candidates weren't chicken-shit of Miami Repukes, they would strongly advocate ending the embargo and travel ban, and leave B* defending it and looking like the pandering cold-war dinosaur that he is!!

[Osolomia]

33. 35 US States have signed trade agreements with Cuba

in recent years, so wtf is the Dem's problem with it?!

e.g. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=92291

[Judi Lynn]

50. Here's an article for newcomers to Cuban "exile" problems

The Old-Fashioned Kind of Terrorism: As American as Miami


Plenty of terrorism has been directed at Cuba from Washington, D.C. The long list of attempted assassinations of President Castro has been known since the 1975 Church congressional hearings. But these days, terrorism against Cuba is conducted by Cuban exiles based in Miami. Those there who oppose the extreme hard line against President Castro experience threats, shootings, bombs, and sometimes murder. American authorities turn a blind eye to this ongoing violence and assist terrorism conducted in Cuba or in third countries.

Convicted terrorists such as Luis Posada Carriles, who killed 73 people when he blew up a Cuban airliner, operate with impunity. Mr. Posada has even worked directly for the U.S. government.

In a report published on April 20, 2000, in the Miami New Times, Jim Mullen compiled a list of terrorist acts committed by Cuban exiles in the Miami area, a list Mr. Mullen says is "incomplete, especially in Miami's trademark category of bomb threats." Mr. Mullen lists 71 acts of violence from 1968 (all but two from 1974) through April 2000.<23> The list includes seven people, six of whom were exile figures, murdered in a three-year span. Then there's the radio reporter whose legs were blown off by a bomb after the reporter condemned exile violence, dozens of actual bombings, several beatings of demonstrators, including a nun, and bombings of cultural events.

Far from attempting to stop this terrorism, Miami officials seem to encourage it. In a well-documented 1968 attack, the notorious exile leader Orlando Bosch, fired a bazooka at a Polish freighter from MacArthur Causeway, the main bridge between Miami and Miami Beach, because the freighter had stopped in Cuba. The city of Miami later declared "Orlando Bosch Day."<24> In 1982, then Miami mayor Maurice Ferre defended a grant to the terrorist group Alpha 66 on the grounds that the group "has never been accused of terrorist activities inside the United States" and a year later, a Miami city commissioner sought to honor an exile terrorist who killed himself when his bomb accidentally detonated.<25>

Perhaps Miami officials take their cue from the federal government, which not only encourages acts against Cuba but harbors as many as 1,000 torturers from around the world, providing a safe haven for them.<26> Amnesty International reports that at least 150 suspected torturers are living in the U.S., and not one has been prosecuted.<27> (snip/...)

http://www.nycbigcitylit.com/aug2002/contents/articledolack.html

[Feanorcurufinwe]

51. So is the US funding terrorist activity in Cuba or Florida or not?

What terrorist groups are receive US funding? What terrorist acts did those groups commit?

Terrorist violence is bad. The US Government supporting terrorist violence is worse.

Is the US Government supporting terrorist violence in Cuba or Florida? Or not?

I'm not a citizen of Miami so I don't have much say over whether that city wants to honor terrorists or jail them but I am a citizen of the United States so I am very interested in whether the US government funds terrorist activities.

[Mika]

63. Yes. The CANF for one, the CIA another

A BOMBER'S TALE
http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/americas/071298cuba-plot.html

A Cuban exile who has waged a campaign of bombings and assassination attempts aimed at toppling Fidel Castro says that his efforts were supported financially for more than a decade by the Cuban-American leaders of one of America's most influential lobbying groups.

The exile, Luis Posada Carriles, said he organized a wave of bombings in Cuba last year <1997> at hotels, restaurants and discothèques, killing an Italian tourist and alarming the Cuban Government. Posada was schooled in demolition and guerrilla warfare by the Central Intelligence Agency in the 1960's.

In a series of tape-recorded interviews at a walled Caribbean compound, Posada said the hotel bombings and other operations had been supported by leaders of the Cuban-American National Foundation. Its founder and head, Jorge Mas Canosa, who died last year, was embraced at the White House by Presidents Reagan, Bush and Clinton.

A powerful force in both Florida and national elections, and a prodigious campaign donor, Mas played a decisive role in persuading Clinton to change his mind and follow a course of sanctions and isolation against Castro's Cuba.

Although the tax-exempt foundation has declared that it seeks to bring down Cuba's Communist Government solely through peaceful means, Posada said leaders of the foundation discreetly financed his operations. Mas personally supervised the flow of money and logistical support, he said.

"Jorge controlled everything," Posada said. "Whenever I needed money, he said to give me $5,000, give me $10,000, give me $15,000, and they sent it to me."

Over the years, Posada estimated, Mas sent him more than $200,000. "He never said, 'This is from the foundation,' " Posada recalled. Rather, he said with a chuckle, the money arrived with the message, "This is for the church."

______


TERRORIST CONNECTIONS RESURFACE IN FLORIDA
http://www.rprogreso.com/RPWeekly062702/usfranklinTerroristConnection062702.htm

Back in 1989 Orlando Bosch, one of the two most notorious Cuban-American terrorists (the other is Luis Posada), was in prison in Florida.  He had returned from Venezuela and was being held on a parole violation.  The United States Justice Department ruled that Bosch should be deported because of his terrorist activities.  The deportation order cited FBI and CIA reports that Bosch "has repeatedly expressed and demonstrated a willingness to cause indiscriminate injury and death," including 30 acts of sabotage in the United States, Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Panama from 1961 through 1968.  In the worst charge against Bosch, 73 people were killed when a bomb blew up a Cuban passenger jet. Acting Associate Attorney General Joe Whitley wrote in his decision to deport Bosch: "The October 6, 1976, Cuban airline bombing was a CORU operation under the direction of Bosch. CORU is the name of Bosch's terrorist outfit."  That bombing marked the first time that a civilian passenger jet was turned into a weapon of terrorism.

Interestingly, it occurred in 1976 when George Bush the elder was head of the CIA; Orlando Bosch had been and maybe still was an agent of the CIA.

You can google most any of the names is the above articles and find plenty of info on their association with terror.

[Osolomia]

66. And if you look you'll find the same names listed

time and time again in the board of directors of the various organizations receiving funding listed in this previous post:

http://ciponline.org/cuba/humanrights/USfunding.htm#usaid

[Feanorcurufinwe]

72. Interestingly enough

the CANF is not listed as a recipient of money:

http://ciponline.org/cuba/humanrights/USfunding.htm

As for Bosch, what does this evil, despicable person have to do with this discussion? The CIA? You really arent expecting me to defend the BushSr CIA are you?

I'm not denying that there are evil people in the world or in the Cuban exile community. I am just asking if it is true that the US is funding terrorism. So pointing out that there are Cuban exile terrorists is only material to our discussion if you also point out that they are receiving US government funding.


Your argument as I understand it:

Some Cuban exiles have committed terrorist acts.
The US government has funded some Cuban exiles.
Therefore the US government has funded terrorist acts.


Similar to:

Some cars are Mustangs.
GM builds cars.
Therefore GM builds Mustangs.

[Osolomia]

77. You need to connect the dots!

Remember that list of organizations receiving US government funds I gave you? Well they're all interelated.

CANF's Mas Canosa was on the Board of Directors of the International Republican Institute which received $2,174,462 of US taxpayers money this year for example.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

80. No, it's your argument, YOU need to connect the dots

in this case you seem to be stating that the International Republican Institute (which of course I've never heard of and know nothing about) is a terrorist organization because Mas Canosa (who I've also never heard of and know nothing about) is on the Board of Directors.

Isn't that a simple case of guilt by association? You have one organization, CANF, accussed by a terrorist in hiding of supporting his terrorism. Another organization, IRI, has someone on it's Board of Directors who has some association with CANF. Is your conclusion that IRI is a terrorist organization? It seems like a non sequitur to me.

[Mika]

79. Who said ALL "exiles"

No one said all "exiles" commit acts of terra, why do you insist that is what posters are saying? :crazy:

All Miamicubans are not perpetrators of Miamicuban exile terror.



BTW, I don't think your GM/Mustangs simile is accurate,

GM builds SOME cars, not all.

Therefore, we wouldn't know whether or not GM made Mustangs unless further scrutiny is endeavored.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

83. Not me, I never used the phrase once in any of my posts

Some Cuban exiles have committed terrorist acts.
The US government has funded some Cuban exiles.
Therefore the US government has funded terrorist acts.


Some cars are Mustangs.
GM builds cars.
Therefore GM builds Mustangs.


Note that the word 'all' is not present. Have you ever studied formal logic? This is what is known as a classic illicit minor - a conclusion that refers to all members of a category, but the same term in the premises refers only to some members of that category.

This is what started the whole useless and repetitive discussion:

BayCityProgressive posted: "The terrorists are the Miami Cuban mob that is funded with tens of millions of our tax dollars. They have killed Americans and Cubans, used car bombs in Florida, and set fire to buildings. They pressure politicians into siding with them. Im glad my tax dollars are going to Al Qaeda lite."

And I asked for some references to back this up. More than 50 posts later and I still haven't seen any evidence that any US tax dollars are going to pay for car bombings, killing Americans or setting fire to buildings. However I have seen plenty of evidence that attempts at reasonable discussion about this issue are fruitless.

Edit: corrected syllogistic error from non sequitur to illicit minor and added link.

[Judi Lynn]

76. Who hasn't seen THIS before?

They explain that they are "just" trying to find out if you are an utter fool or not, or perhaps an enemy of the state, and you can spend an entire day running to google and dragging articles back, which some of them flat out refuse to read, like you know who's, while they keep repeating their original charges over and over.

They are "just" trying to understand, while you "just" waste an entire afternoon or evening while they pretend they "just" can't understand how you can arrive at your conclusions.

They "just" should sit and read the material, invest some time the way any of us do who struggle to learn!

I gotta go, have time obligations elsewhere, of course.

If I had time, I'd look up the law suit pressed by Jorge Mas Canosa on a former head of the U.S. Interests Sections in Havana who stated that the money from the government goes to the N.E.D. which gives it to CANF. Jorge Mas Canosa sued him, won in Florida, OF COURSE, then the guy overturned the judgement, OF COURSE, in appeals.

[Julien Sorel]

53. Terrorism is only terrorism when it's committed by Arabs.

You should know that by now. Someone should inform the person who wrote that article that the correct term for Cuban politically-motivated murder is 'freedom killings,' so these sorts of debates are avoided in the future.

[legin]

52. Mmmmm...

If Dean and Kerry roll over for this bunch of miserable squirts (Miami Cubans) just to get a few votes, what are they going to do when they come up against 'the main man' ?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

54. Kerry has been consistent - as always.

He said in 2000 that the sanctions need reevaluating, and he described on MTP some of his thoughts on that reevaluation. Specifically he said that the sanctions should not be unilaterally lifted, but that travel restrictions should be eased, and perhaps allowing more money to be sent to dissidents.

[IndianaGreen]

56. Kerry is a liar! Why did he say "unilateral" when the US is the only...

Kerry is a liar! Why did he say "unilateral" when the US is the only country having an embargo on Cuba? What the hell is he smoking? Perhaps Kerry thinks we are a bunch of uneducated morons that wouldn't know the difference between unilateral and multilateral. Wait a minute, maybe that is why Kerry saw nothing wrong in Bush's unilateral decision to invade Iraq. Perhaps this is why Kerry parroted the same lies about WMD, including the 45 minute launch warning, that the Poodle Blair told Parliament.

I saw Kerry's performance on Meet the Press, and a performance it was. There for all to see was Kerry, showing us all why he pissed away all of his talents for the cheap thrill of a racist war against a Muslim country.

Where is the John Kerry that opposed the Vietnam War, and how come he is not running for President?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

58. We get it, you hate Kerry. Here is the dictionary definition of unilateral

lol

Main Entry: uni·lat·er·al
Pronunciation: "yü-ni-'la-t&-r&l, -'la-tr&l
Function: adjective
Date: 1802
1 a : done or undertaken by one person or party b : of, relating to, or affecting one side of a subject : ONE-SIDED c : constituting or relating to a contract or engagement by which an express obligation to do or forbear is imposed on only one party
2 a : having parts arranged on one side <a unilateral raceme> b : occurring on, performed on, or affecting one side of the body or one of its parts <unilateral exophthalmos>
3 : UNILINEAL
4 : having only one side
- uni·lat·er·al·ly adverb
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=unilateral

Kerry is saying the the US shouldn't unilaterally lift the sanctions. (see definition posted above to understand what unilateral means) His position is the the sanctions should only be completely lifted in response to movement by Cuba ( bilaterally ).

[seaglass]

59. Unilateral, as in only one side participates.

In other words, U.S. lifts all sanctions and Cuba does nothing.

[IndianaGreen]

61. So Kerry is still waging the Cold War? A bigger moron than I thought!

American has raped Cuba and the Cuban people since 1898 when the US supplanted Spain as the colonial power (should I mention Puerto Rico?).

Cuba owes NOTHING to the US! Yet it is the US that has conducted an undeclared war and a campaign of terrorism against Cuba ever since Cubans got tired of being America's whorehouse for the US Navy and a Mafia-run gambling Mecca.

America should get her filthy hands off Cuba, and the rest of Latin America, and accept the fact that it is not up to the Yanqui imperialists to tell Latin Americans how to run their affairs.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

68. Kerry is to blame for all of America's mistakes.

Why won't he admit it?

[IndianaGreen]

107. Nice distortion, it is called a "strawman argument" I believe

Go back to school little one, and learn the real history of Cuban-American relations going back to the Spanish American War. While there, you may ask yourself why did the Americans bar the Cuban Liberation Army (the "Mambises"), under the command of General Maximo Gomez, from entering the city of Santiago after the Spanish garrison surrendered.

You should also find out why the US Marines opened fire on striking tobacco workers during the US Occupation, and why was the Platt Amendment made part of the Cuban Constitution at the point of our naval guns? This was long before Fidel Castro was born, and these are but a tiny number of the historical grievances Cubans have against America. Did I mention Guantanamo?

If you are really honest about finding the truth, you can do the same type of historical journey on the American colonization of Puerto Rico and the Philippines.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

108. If you want

to call me 'little one' can I call you 'big fat one'? - it's just as material to the discussion at hand.

I don't know how to respond to your post. You obviously don't like me (although you don't know me) and you have mentioned some historical incidents, seeming to imply that I should explain them or feel guilty about them or... honestly I don't know why you've listed this stuff.

What is your point?

[imhotep]

64. Kerry never opposed Vietnam

he wanted more troops and more bombs in Vietnam to "win."

[Feanorcurufinwe]

75. What a laughable misrepresentation

Kerry arrested for protesting the Vietnam war.


Kerry, a director of the Vietnam Veterans against the War, testifies before the Senate Foreign Relations committee April 22, 1971.

At a jammed Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on April 22, 1971, Kerry took his case to Congress. Television cameras lined the walls, and veterans packed the seats. Kerry was dressed in his green fatigues and wore his Silver Star and Purple Heart ribbons, although he said he left the medals at home. With his thatch of dark hair swept across his brow, Kerry sat at a witness table and delivered the most famous speech of his life, the speech that defined him and made possible his political career.

"How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam?" Kerry asked. "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" Attacking the Nixon White House, he said, "This administration has done us the ultimate dishonor. They have attempted to disown us and the sacrifices we made for this country."
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061703.shtml

[Sean Reynolds]

55. To all: Dean NEVER said he wouldn't repeal the embargo.

He said that NOW wasn't the time to do it. To me that doesn't say he'll keep the embargo in place throughout, he just said that now is not the right time.

Take that for what it's worth.

[legin]

65. And

how long have these sanctions been in place ?

30, 40 years ?

I know foreign policy tends to be somewhat out of the realm of the normal rules of morality, but this is taking things to extremes. This piece of arseholism has become institutionalised within the foreign policy apparatus of the u.s.

I want these sanctions repealed now. I don't want nuanced positions on the sanctions, I want now.

[bread_and_roses]

106. what it's worth

is not much. I don't care if he's consistent, I care if he is willing to do the right thing, which is to end the embargo.

[Mel]

57. this really grates me

I want to go and see Cuba for myself my Mother got to go when she was a little girl before the sanctions/which means Americans not being allowed to go without risking heavy fines. It's not freedom when we can't even go to Cuba hell we can even go to China and look at how they treat their people this hypocrisy is insane!

[Judi Lynn]

73. Jimmy Carter has a less political perspective on Cuba -

(snip) PRESS ALERT

JIMMY CARTER DIRECTIVE ON NORMALIZING CUBA RELATIONS

National Security Archive Posts 1977 Presidential Order to
Reestablish Diplomatic Ties with Castro Government

Carter Directive Recalls Acts of U.S.-Based Terrorism Against Cuba


Washington, D.C., May 15 – The National Security Archive at George Washington University today posted on the Web a declassified Presidential Directive, signed by Jimmy Carter, which stated: “I have concluded that we should attempt to achieve normalization of our relations with Cuba.” The directive, dated March 15, 1977, shortly after Carter took office, is believed to represent the only time a President has ordered normalization of U.S. relations with Castro’s Cuba to be an explicit foreign policy goal of the United States.
On May 12, 2002, Carter became the first U.S. President, current or former, to visit Cuba since Castro’s revolution in 1959. His five-day visit unofficially continues a dialogue that was officially started with the distribution of this two-page document, Presidential Directive/NSC-6, in 1977. Carter’s effort to “set in motion a process which will lead to the reestablishment of diplomatic relations between the United States and Cuba” eventually was aborted over Cold War issues such as Cuba’s involvement in Africa.

While the Carter administration’s attempts to improve relations with Cuba are well known, U.S. government documentation recording that effort remains largely classified, noted Peter Kornbluh who directs the Archive’s Cuba Project. Kornbluh called the presidential directive “a pivotal piece of documentation in the hidden history of U.S. efforts to seek a rapprochement with Cuba.”

In the context of today's war on terrorism, it is interesting to note the Carter directive's assumption that U.S.-based exile groups were conducting terror attacks against Cuba. “The Attorney General should take all necessary steps permitted by law to prevent terrorist or any illegal actions launched from within the United States against Cuba,” the directive concluded. (snip/...)

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20020515/

[Feanorcurufinwe]

171. Carter's vision of future U.S.-Cuban relations - May 14, 2002

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/05/14/carter.text/

[Osolomia]

178. Carter's vision

snip from your article:

That vision includes a Cuba fully integrated into a democratic hemisphere, participating in a Free Trade Area of the Americas and with our citizens traveling without restraint to visit each other. I want a massive student exchange between our universities. I want the people of the United States and Cuba to share more than a love of baseball and wonderful music. I want us to be friends, and to respect each other.

Our two nations have been trapped in a destructive state of belligerence for 42 years, and it is time for us to change our relationship and the way we think and talk about each other. Because the United States is the most powerful nation, we should take the first step.

First, my hope is that the Congress will soon act to permit unrestricted travel between the United States and Cuba, establish open trading relationships, and repeal the embargo.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

181. Read the whole speech if you want to understand what Carter is saying

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/05/14/carter.text/

[Osolomia]

184. I did. In the conclusion to his speech at the University of Havana

Carter said:

(snip/...)

I would ask that you permit the International Committee of the Red Cross to visit prisons and that you would receive the U.N. Human Rights Commissioner to address such issues as prisoners of conscience and the treatment of inmates. These visits could help refute any unwarranted criticisms.

Public opinion surveys show that a majority of people in the United States would like to see the economic embargo ended, normal travel between our two countries, friendship between our people, and Cuba to be welcomed into the community of democracies in the Americas. At the same time, most of my fellow citizens believe that the issues of economic and political freedom need to be addressed by the Cuban people.

After 43 years of animosity, we hope that someday soon, you can reach across the great divide that separates our two countries and say, "We are ready to join the community of democracies," and I hope that Americans will soon open our arms to you and say, "We welcome you as our friends."

(snip/...)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

185. OK, you did, I hope everyone else reads the whole thing too

because if they only read the sections you snip out they will get a distorted view of what he said.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/05/14/carter.text/

[Judi Lynn]

62. Just heard from a knowledgeable South Florida D.U. reader

Who shared this article on Cuba travel as it is, unless the appropriate changes are made:

(snip) .S. tightens the lid on travel to Cuba

Tougher restrictions make it hard for Americans to travel to the island nation.

By Jane Engle | Travel writer
Posted August 31, 2003
Is the party over? (ASSOCIATED PRESS)
Aug 31, 2003


The rumba party isn't over yet for U.S. travelers to Cuba, but the lights have dimmed, the music is fading and guests are starting to leave. It may be time to grab that last dance -- or is it?

A year ago, business was booming for nonprofits that annually send an estimated 20,000 Americans to Cuba. Then in March the U.S. Treasury Department said it would stop issuing "people-to-people" licenses, which many of these operators use. As the remaining licenses expire -- most in November or December -- so do these trips.

By next year, nonprofits I talked with expect to have virtually ended their Cuba travel programs or plan to offer far fewer departures -- in one case, only one-fourth as many. Meanwhile, they are scrambling to redesign tours to qualify under more restrictive licensing categories.

The bottom line: It looks as if you'll still be able to travel to Cuba legally next year, but on fewer and more limited itineraries that may require, for instance, that you spend virtually all your time doing research or delivering humanitarian aid. Trips also may become pricier, mostly because the nonprofits' staffing costs will be spread over fewer tours. (snip/...)

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/travel/printedition/orl-travcubatravel083103aug31.story


looks like some Republicans on holiday!

Hello, Hi! :hi:


John Lennon to be seen in a small park in Havana

[Osolomia]

69. TRAVEL BAN ON CUBA TIGHTENED: WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW

http://ciponline.org/cuba/travel/travelregsmemo_2003.htm

[Mika]

74. Americans are second class citizens/residents

While Americans are not allowed to go to Cuba, Cuban-Americans and Cuban resident aliens in the USA are.

How can any Dem candidate support such discrimination?


http://ciponline.org/cuba/travel/travelregsmemo_2003.htm

Cuban American restrictions eased

The new regulations eased restrictions on the largest category of travelers: Cuban Americans. The definition of a close relative was broadened and the amount of cash remittances a Cuban American may carry to Cuba rose to from $300 to $3,000. The per diem spending limit for Cuban Americans was lifted entirely. Effectively, OFAC has eased conditions under which Cuban-Americans may travel and has narrowed them for most others. This leniency arises from the fact that a majority of Cuban Americans now support lifting the travel ban. Still, many Cuban Americans complain that getting permission for more than one visit--even in extreme cases like death in the family--is too cumbersome and cruel; often these visitors return home illegally, through third countries.

[Osolomia]

94. And that's the way DUers like it!

otherwise they'd be calling their Reps about this Thursday's vote.

Notice that "the amount of cash remittances a Cuban American may carry to Cuba rose to from $300 to $3,000. The per diem spending limit for Cuban Americans was lifted entirely."

Now what was that pretzel logic Dems use to justify the travel ban and embargo again? Oh yeah, spending American-American's money in Cuba is bad but Cuban-American's money is good. Go figure!

[guajira]

103. Miami Cubans can now stay at 5-star hotels in Havana and Varadero!

Miami Cubans fly from Miami to Havana, stay in hotels, rent cars, go to nightclub shows and restaurants, etc. with no restriction on how much they can spend per day.

Americans can't go and spend money because that would be "trading with the enemy".

Any US politician who supports that bullshit policy is either really stupid or just plain pandering to Miami Cuban Batistianos. You decide which category candidates and other politicians fall into!!

[Osolomia]

100. With so many progressive* democrats* in the Repuke camp

What difference does it make who you vote for in 2004?

If it was any other country than Cuba what would DUers reaction be to such government policies? Hmm? Why the double standards?

The Rest of the World opened up to Cuba over a decade ago, the Pope pleaded with you to do it 5 years ago, a bipartisan majority in Congress wants to do it, most State Legislatures want to do it, 35 farm states have already started trading with Cuba, so wtf is the Democratic Party's problem eh?

[Voltaire99]

101. Dem or Repuke? Only his gastroenterologist knows for sure!

I have to agree, sadly.

Kerry is just showing himself to be an establishment tool of the first order--not that his record ever suggested much hope for him.

Through the incompetence and malice of the Bushmen, an historic opportunity has been handed to the Dems! But this pathetic pandering to right wing forces is only giving more impetus to the Greens to smack the Democratic Party back on its ass again in 2004.

[guajira]

104. So True, Remember Nader Went to Cuba and Spoke at the

University of Havana. He has stated he wants the embargo and travel ban to end.

snippet:
In Nader's opinion, the ongoing blockade has not managed to destabilize the Cuban government, but has strengthened it. He questioned the US authorities' double standard on that point, comparing it with the attitude of his country's citizens who are increasingly calling for relations to be normalized.

He likewise said that the US press should make more mention of Cuban society's achievements and positive aspects.
more:

http://www.washingtonfreepress.org/59/naderInHavana.htm

[Osolomia]

111. an historic opportunity has been handed to the Dems indeed!

But it's not the Greens fault if they blow it!

[Uzybone]

187. Yay Greens

thanks for smacking the Democrats on thier ass and giving us Bush the criminal.
Its one thing to worship at the alter of St Ralph, its quite galling to see a greenie basically rejoice in the fact the Democrats didnt win in 2000 and threaten to do it again in 2004.

[jiacinto]

110. Oh my god

The Democrats aren't running on a pro-Castro Marxist platform! Heaven forbid!

[Osolomia]

114. No, it'd be an anti-Cuban "exile" platform of majority rule

That's why you don't like it no doubt.

[Mika]

123. Gotta love Carlos' pro-Castro Marxist accusations. They're funny.

No matter what the aspect of a Cuba related thread, Carlos posts a drive-by accusation/misrepresentation. :silly:

Its always good for a chuckle.

[tlb]

119. The embargo is the only example of consistent foreign policy

that has been totally bipartasin since its inception. Conservative republican or liberal democrat administrations have enforced the policy. Congressional leaders during democrat majorities and republican majorities likewise vote for the policy.

It has always seemed simple minded to blame this entirely on a handful of Cuban refugees in Miami. That might explain the support of one side or the other, but not BOTH sides during such otherwise different types of administrations for two generations.

I've felt for a long time the US had evidence that Castro was behind the hit on JFK and this embargo was the only way to punish him without violating the US/USSR " no invasion " agreement. Castro's retaliation for the various Kennedy murder attempts on him was not enough to justify a war, but neither could it be ignored.

Hopefully the world will be relieved of Castro's presence in the near future. Perhaps then we will finally learn the answer one way or the other.

[Judi Lynn]

120. The current embargo was put in place October 19, 1960

This would have been during Eisenhower's presidency.

There was an ealier embargo, discussed in the Breckenridge Memorandum, by John C. Breckenridge, the Undersecretary of War in 1897. He said:

(snip) We must impose a harsh blockade so that hunger and its constant companion, disease, undermine the peaceful population and decimate the Cuban army. (snip/...)

http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/bmemo.htm

[Mika]

122. So far 93% of DUers who voted want the embargo to end

According to this DU poll,

Poll question: Should the Cuban embargo be lifted?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=251742

As of Tue Sep-02-03 09:20 AM

Yes 93%
No 6%
Undecided 2%

[guajira]

125. Mika, Thanks for posting that Poll!

If Dem candidates had the cojones to call for end to embargo and travel ban, they could leave B* hanging in the wind, defending a worthless pandering policy. That would show his true colors.

Maybe Wesley Clark will be the man with the integrity and courage to stand up to B* on this outdated Cold War policy!

[Osolomia]

127. There’s a veto proof bipartisan majority vote in the House

there for the taking this Thursday that would pull the rug out from under Bush but obviously the spineless Dems do not have the cojones to do it. So long as spineless Dem candidates ignore the will of the majority and pander to the extremist right wing minority they’re not fit to govern either imho.

It's excruciating to watch and my heartfelt sympathies go out to those living in Florida who have known the truth for over a decade now and been instrumental in trying to enlighten their fellow Americans all these years for it all to come to this slate of ignorant pandering candidates. Good luck!

[joshcryer]

124. The irony of embargos:

With embargos, human rights are lessened and people suffer.

With human rights being lessened and suffering of people, embargos are necessary.

...?

Does that make sense to anyone?

[guajira]

133. No, it makes no sense - Embargos are not "necessary" - it's a choice

In the case of the Cuban embargo and travel ban, it's a choice of US politicians to pander to Miami Batistianos

[joshcryer]

139. They're "necessary to curb oppression."

That's how they're 'necessary.'

[Judi Lynn]

140. Do you recall reading that the Texas Legislature passed a resolution

to end the embargo on Cuba the very year George W. Bush finally left Texas and went to Washington?


Polls, unless they are conducted among right-wingnuts always show the American public supports the end of the embargo.

(snip)
Every recent poll of Americans, including surveys from independent pollsters, shows a majority of Americans favors lifting the U.S. embargo -- with even bigger majorities favoring an end to other embargo-era policies. Americans want to lift the embargo by a margin of 52-to-32 percent, according to a Cuba Policy Foundation poll in 2001 conducted by a nonpartisan, independent polling firm. By a 63-to-33 percent margin, Americans believe lifting the embargo would be the most effective way to bring democracy to Cuba. And by a 63-to-24 percent margin, Americans want the U.S. to start a formal dialogue with Cuba now.

Support for important incremental changes in U.S. policy is even stronger. Overwhelming majorities want to lift the U.S. ban on travel to Cuba (67-to-24 percent); to allow American companies to sell food to Cuba (71-to-22 percent); and to allow American companies to sell medicine to Cuba (76-to-17 percent). (snip/...)

http://www.cubafoundation.org/where-2.html

Worth mentioning, the veto-proof majority in the Republican controlled House of Representatives voting Thursday on lifting the travel ban.

[JohnKleeb]

141. dont like this by Kerry

but I dont know anyone who supports removing it. BTW I think Kucinich does.

[Judi Lynn]

142. It IS sad. Someday, with a Democratic President, it'll probably change

due to heavy popular support!

You're right about Dennis Kucinich. See Tinoire's post, from #47 above:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=92161&mesg_id=92424&page=

[guajira]

143. Gen. Wesley Clark favors ending embargo and travel ban

When I emailed his website to get his viewpoint, this is the reply I got:

"In response to a question from the audience, Clark also said he felt the answer to converting Cuba from communism is with trade, contact and exposure to Americans. “The way to deal with Castro,” Clark said, “is to send Cuba American tourists, American goods and American farm products. There could be no better way to deal with this last vestigial form of Communism than to turn American business and American agriculture loose on them.”

[IndianaGreen]

146. Clark also favors ending the idiotic "don't ask, don't tell" policy

that keeps gays from serving.

[Osolomia]

145. Transcript from Meet the Press

MR. RUSSERT: Let me turn to Cuba before we take a break. This is what John Kerry said a few years ago regarding Fidel Castro in Cuba. “Senator John Kerry...said in an interview that a re-evaluation of relations with Cuba was ‘way overdue.’ ‘We have a frozen, stalemated, counterproductive policy...There is just a complete and total contradiction between the way we deal with China, the way we dealt with Russia, the way we have been dealing with Cuba...The only reason we don’t re-evaluate the policy is the politics of Florida.’”
SEN. KERRY: That’s an honest statement.
MR. RUSSERT: Would you consider lifting sanctions, lifting the embargo against Cuba?
SEN. KERRY: Not unilaterally, not now, no.
MR. RUSSERT: Would you lessen travel restrictions?
SEN. KERRY: Yes.
MR. RUSSERT: How?
SEN. KERRY: I’d like to get people traveling in there. I think that people traveling in there weakens Castro. I want to do what it takes to weaken Fidel Castro. I don’t like Fidel Castro. Some people have cottoned to him in our party and go down and visit. I went to Cuba once and I purposely said I don’t want to. I...
MR. RUSSERT: But, Senator, we trade with Russia, we trade with China, why not trade with Cuba?
SEN. KERRY: I don’t think we should do that automatically. Because I think you want to get something for something, and I think that you should re-evaluate, and I agree—I mean, I don’t change what I said. But I think we need to move step by step in a way that begins to engage and see what we can do. But I wouldn’t just give him a reward for nothing, no.... ... ...
MR. RUSSERT: And you’re not concerned that this may cause you election difficulty in Florida.
SEN. KERRY: I think there are many different views in Florida, Tim. I think many people feel that, you know, Castro uses his isolation, frankly, to have the most Stalinist, tough secret police, you know, eliminate your opposition regime in the world. I think the more you can put the pressure and heat on him, the better. I’d like to find ways to do it. And that’s my policy, to try to liberate Cuba, not leave it in the hands of a Stalinist police state.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/960385.asp

Cuba's a "Stalinist police state"? Only a travel banned American would believe that!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

147. Amnesty International's 2003 Cuba report

http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/cub-summary-eng

[Osolomia]

149. AI neglects to mention the US taxpayer funding of the “dissidents”

Gee, wouldn’t a progressive democrat wonder why instead of swallowing the propaganda hook, line and sinker no questions asked?

[Judi Lynn]

150. Foreign funding of U.S. "dissidents" wouldn't go over here, would it?

Probably would have to name a new Czar just to handle it!

As it is, anyone who even dares to speak out against _Bush becomes the target for all kinds of insults and attacks, and there's NO DOUBT about this whatsoever. "Lib-rul" is pronounced with seething, drooling rancor.

[IndianaGreen]

162. How about Amnesty International report on the United States?

It makes you a hypocrite to support America when she is the worse offender and has engaged in murder and terrorism on a global scale, particularly in Latin America.

Like many of the Miami gusanos, and their rightwing sycophants, you are obsessed about a handful of Cuba's misdemeanors while ignoring America's felonious crime spree!

Conservatives in this country always lauded Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch whenever they issued a report critical of governments they disliked. but quickly turned a deaf ear when a report would critize the US or one of our puppet regimes.

Just as the people of Iraq have the right of self-determination free of the evil American occupation, the people of Cuba have chosen to exercise their own determination. America should stay out of Cuban affairs, just as it should get out of Iraq!

[Judi Lynn]

148. Amnesty International MAY be influenced by its Miami exile members

They are only as good as the information they are getting, and it obviously is going to get a self-serving spin from its Miami members.

"I started activity against Castro when I was 13 and still in Cuba," says Gladys Perez, 53, a banker and a volunteer for Amnesty International.http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2000/04/07/movement/

(snip) ''Taking advantage of their sojourn, Amnesty International in Miami realized the need to honor them , and what better opportunity than the day when women are most talked about?'' said Silvia Sarasua, Amnesty's spokeswoman in South Florida.
http://web.radicalparty.org/pressreview/print_right.php?func=detail&par=4824

Amnesty Internation report on the U.S.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511142003

Do It Yourself! Enter Florida!
Amnesty International on Florida
http://www.amnesty.org/results/is/eng

Enter TEXAS!
http://www.amnesty.org/results/is/eng

Enter United States!
http://www.amnesty.org/results/is/eng
Here's one example:
(snip) UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
A killing that no respectable government can condone


Action for clemency
Please appeal to the following addressees to uphold the rule of law and to promote the international image of Oklahoma and the USA by preventing the execution of Scott Hain.


In its National Strategy for Combating Terrorism, the US Government writes: "We must use the full influence of the United States to delegitimize terrorism and make clear that all acts of terrorism will be viewed in the same light as slavery, piracy, or genocide: behaviour that no respectable government can condone or support and all must oppose."(1)

The prohibitions on slavery and genocide are widely considered to be peremptory norms of international law, also known as rules of jus cogens. These are principles from which there can be no derogation under any circumstances whatsoever. The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, for example, recently stated that norms of jus cogens "derive their status from fundamental values held by the international community, as violations of such peremptory norms are considered to shock the conscience of humankind and therefore bind the international community as a whole, irrespective of protest, recognition or acquiescence." The Commission noted that commonly cited examples of rules of customary law that have attained the status of jus cogens norms include the prohibitions on genocide and slavery.(2)

The Commission went on to find that the USA was itself in violation of a jus cogens principle, adding: "The acceptance of this norm crosses political and ideological boundaries and efforts to detract from this standard have been vigorously condemned by members of the international community as impermissible under contemporary human rights standards... As a jus cogens norm, this proscription binds the community of States, including the United States. The norm cannot be validly derogated from...".

The norm in question is the prohibition on the imposition of the death penalty on child offenders, people who were under 18 at the time of the crime. The Fourth Geneva Convention, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the Convention on the Rights of the Child - the latter ratified by 191 countries - the American Convention on Human Rights, the African Charter on the Rights and Welfare of the Child, and the United Nations Safeguards Guaranteeing Protection of the Rights of Those Facing the Death Penalty, all have provisions exempting child offenders from execution. (snip)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR510332003

Another example:
AI INDEX: AMR 51/046/2003 24 April 2003 Printer friendly
Printer friendly PDF


UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
Death by discrimination - the continuing role of race in capital cases



"We simply cannot say we live in a country that offers equal justice to all Americans when racial disparities plague the system by which our society imposes the ultimate punishment." US Senator, January 2003(1) (snip)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510462003

Another example:
AI INDEX: AMR 51/121/2001 16 August 2001 Printer friendly

16 August 2001
AI Index AMR 51/121/2001 - News Service Nr. 145


USA: Time to stop executing juvenile offenders and join the modern world (snip)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511212001

Another example:
AI INDEX: AMR 05/002/2003 7 May 2003 Printer friendly
Printer friendly PDF


7 May 2003
AI Index: AMR 05/002/2003

Open letter to participants of CARICOM meeting urging rejection of impunity agreements with the United States of America on the International Criminal Court (snip)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR050022003

(snip) Amnesty International's 2000 report and the Human Development Report 2000 reveal that systematic violations of human rights exist in those countries that condemned Cuba, whether assessed on a liberal democratic or a basic human needs principle.(snip)
http://www.ratb.org.uk/frfi/156_geneva.html

[Feanorcurufinwe]

151. I get it - any criticism of Cuba is an exile-sponsored plot

[Mika]

152. Who said that?

"I get it - any criticism of Cuba is an exile-sponsored plot"


Who said that? Wow.. Talk about reaching extreme conclusions.

JudiLyn said '.. MAY be influenced.. ', which, to most, is worthy of some consideration, in light of 40 years of Cuban expat anti Castro propaganda.

[guajira]

153. It takes a Real Gusano (worm) to try to keep Cuban grammy nominees

from coming to Miami to attend the Latin Grammys and pick up their awards!

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/6677494.htm

There is no limit to the amount of hatred Miami Batistianos feel for their own people living in Cuba (except for their own relatives!!).

[Osolomia]

154. It takes a spineless Dem to pander to these Batistiano gusanos

who stole the 2002 election and will steal Cuba's elections too if US taxpayers continue to fund them.

[guajira]

156. Of Course Gusanos had Help from US State Dept.-for Holding up Visas

of Cuban musicians.

If Cuban pedofiles or thiefs or murderers enter US illegally on a stolen boat or brought in by smugglers, they are welcomed with open arms and allowed to stay here permanently!

But if a famous grammy nominated musician tries to enter legally on a temporary visa, they have to be checked thoroughly to ensure they're not a terrorist!!

Anyone who thinks the US/Cuba policy isn't f*cked up, must be a Miami gusano or just plain braindead!!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

157. Inter-American Commission on Human Rights 2002 report on Cuba

http://www.cidh.org/annualrep/2002eng/chap.4a.htm

[Feanorcurufinwe]

158. Human Rights Watch

1999 report on Cuba:
CUBA S REPRESSIVE MACHINERY Human Rights Forty Years After the Revolution

2003 Editorial by the executive director of the Americas division of Human Rights Watch:
Havana s Obstruction of Freedom

[Judi Lynn]

160. Human Rights Watch on the embargo, etc.

Time to End the U.S. Embargo on Cuba

On Monday, President Bush will reportedly give a speech reaffirming his administration's support of the embargo. In its current form, the embargo bars nearly all U.S. trade with Cuba, and prohibits U.S. citizens from visiting the island unless they can show that they fall into certain narrow categories.
"If the goal is to improve human rights conditions in Cuba, then the embargo should be ended," said José Miguel Vivanco, Executive Director of the Americas Division of Human Rights Watch. "The embargo has proved itself ineffective and even counterproductive to the human rights cause." (snip)

(snip) Finally, the embargo's travel ban, which only contains narrow exceptions for journalists, people with relatives in Cuba, and certain other groups, violates the rights of U.S. citizens by limiting their ability to share information and ideas with Cubans. As the visit of former President Jimmy Carter exemplified, U.S. visitors may be the emissary of democratic values and ideas, enriching Cuba's relatively closed society. (snip/...)
http://hrw.org/press/2002/05/cuba0517.htm

[Judi Lynn]

163. HRW on U.S. capital punishment

(snip) Kate Allen, Amnesty International UK Director, said:

"At least one in five of the African Americans executed since 1977, and a quarter of the blacks put to death for killing whites, were tried in front of all-white juries. Are we really to believe that this happened for non-discriminatory reasons?

"President Bush has promised that the United States will always stand firm for equal justice. If that is true, he and other politicians must call an immediate halt to executions, when studies consistently indicate that the justice system places a higher value on white life than on black".

Cases show a pattern of prosecutors dismissing minority jurors during jury selection. Prospective jurors may only be excluded for "race neutral" reasons in US capital trials, but this protection only catches the most overtly racist tactics. Even in the absence of questionable dismissals, however, defendants have faced jury pools in which minorities are under-represented in the first place.

Kate Allen said: "US capital juries do not represent the community because death penalty opponents are kept off them. This is compounded where, for whatever reason, members of minority communities are under-represented in the pools from which jurors are selected".

Recent research into the attitudes of capital jurors indicates that racial stereotyping can taint deliberations, and that the racial mix of juries can play a role in the outcome of capital trials. Two black prisoners were executed last month despite allegations that the solitary African American on each of their juries was singled out for pressure by white jurors to change their vote from life to death. (snip/...)
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/deliver?document=14480

[Judi Lynn]

164. Amnesty International on U.S. Human Rights abuse

(snip)
News

Bigger Smaller Send To A Friend
US accused of human rights scandal over Cuba camp



Governments including Britain and the US are using the war on terror as an excuse to trample human rights, Amnesty International claimed yesterday.


The organisation's annual report said that in spite of huge sums being spent to fight terrorism since September 11, people all over the world were feeling "more insecure than since the end of the Cold War".
Secretary general Irene Khan said: "In the name of security, politics and profit, human rights were trampled the world over by governments, armed groups and corporate activity.
"What would have been unacceptable on September 10 2001 is now becoming almost the norm.
"What would have been an outrage in Western countries during the Cold War – torture, detention without trial, truncated justice – is readily accepted in some countries today for some people.
"Governments spend billions to beef up security to fight the war against terror but people, whether rich or poor in the global north or south, feel more insecure today than ever since the end of the Cold War."
The group said the detention by the US of 600 foreign nationals at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba was a "human rights scandal" and called on America to release or charge those imprisoned there. (snip/...)
http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticleMore2.aspx?SectionID=55&ArticleID=523807&Page=1&ReturnUrl=NewsFrontMore.aspx

[Judi Lynn]

165. U.S. Human Rights Violations in Amnesty International Report

(snip) Amnesty International slams US human rights record
Despite its claim to be the world leader in human rights, the United States is failing to respect fundamental rights at home and abroad, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL said on October 6. AI has released a report on US human rights and launched its first worldwide campaign to highlight that country's human rights situation.


“All countries, irrespective of their power or political system, have a duty to protect the rights of all their people. But across the US, thousands are falling victim to human rights violations”, said Pierre Sani, AI's secretary general. “Too often, human rights in the USA are a tale of two nations: rich and poor, white and black, male and female.”

AI's campaign will highlight the arbitrary, unfair and racist use of the death penalty; abuses by US police and prison officials (often carried out with high-tech repression tools like electro-shock devices and chemical sprays); and the growing incarceration of asylum seekers.

The campaign will also focus attention on the USA's double standards in foreign policy and international human rights.


Abusing the world
“As the world's largest producer and exporter of arms, the USA contributes to human rights abuse by supplying equipment and training to governments and armed groups known to have carried out torture, political killings and other abuses”, Sani said.

Electro-shock weapons produced by the US have been used to torture victims around the world, and are now banned in some western European countries and in Canada. Items used and exported by the US -- like leg-irons, thumb-cuffs, electro-shock weapons and pepper spray -- easily or inherently lend themselves to torture or ill-treatment, according to AI.

The US State Department in 1995 reported there was “highly credible” evidence that US-supplied military equipment had been used to violate human rights in Turkey. Turkey's special units of paramilitary gendarmes and police -- two of the forces most frequently accused of political killings, “disappearances” and torture -- have used assault rifles, grenade launchers and helicopters obtained from the US. (snip/...)
http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1998/337/337p14.htm

[Feanorcurufinwe]

168. if my neighbor is a murderer, does that make it ok for me to be a thief?

[IndianaGreen]

173. Except that in this case, YOU (America) is the mass murderer

while your neighbor (Cuba) is fighting off the burglars!

What was that thing in the Bible about the speck in your brother's eye?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

175. If I am a mass murderer, is it ok for my neighbor to be a murderer?

Do two wrongs make a right? You seem to be saying that because the US government does evil, no one in the US should be allowed criticise the Cuban government.

In American, if we are not happy with the actions of the government, we have the freedom to criticise it (so far). And in fact I'm very unhappy with many actions of the US government, and I will continue to speak out against them.

What about free speech in Cuba? Is it freedom to speak as long as you don't criticise the government or socialism?

"ARTICLE 62. None of the freedoms which are recognized for citizens can be exercised contrary to what is established in the Constitution and by law, or contrary to the existence and objectives of the socialist state, or contrary to the decision of the Cuban people to build socialism and communism. Violations of this principle can be punished by law."
Constitution of the Republic of Cuba, 1992

[IndianaGreen]

179. There is more free speech in Cuba than in America

Where is your vaunted free press in America when it is owned by a handful of media magnates? How do you reconcile "free speech" with "First Amendment zones"?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

182. two statements

Statement one:

"I support changing the constitution of the United States to move it toward a socialist system like they have in Cuba"

It is legal to utter this statement in the United States.


Statement two:

"I support changing the constitution of Cuba to move it toward a capitalist system like they have in the United States"

It is illegal to utter this statement in Cuba.



Which sounds like free speech to you?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

191. Even easier

Let's make it even easier.


" I think the basic economic system in this country should be changed by amending the Constitution."


ILLEGAL to say in Cuba
LEGAL to say in the United States


" The president of this country is a tinhorn dictator who was illegally elected and should be removed from power. "


ILLEGAL to say in Cuba
LEGAL to say in the United States

[Osolomia]

192. Nonsense, who do travel banned Americans think they're foolong?

Did U.S. Envoy Go Too Far? Critics say aggressive stance against Cuba may have led to backlash on dissidents

By Letta Tayler
LATIN AMERICA CORRESPONDENT
September 2, 2003

Havana - Yankee capitalists hadn't courted Cuba this ardently since before the Communist revolution. Packing the opening day of a food vendors' fair here in October, U.S. participants were so eager to sell Cuba anything from chicken nuggets to chewing gum that they raced to shake hands with strongman Fidel Castro.

But a Cold-War wind blew through the love fest when James Cason, the new top U.S. diplomat to Cuba, arrived at a party for the American business representatives that evening.

"I expect to see a lot more bull than I do beef" from any food deals with Cuba, Cason thundered in his first major speech here. "... Cuba is an international deadbeat, sort of a Freddie the Freeloader."

His comments were the opening salvo in the Bush administration's stepped-up battle against Castro's regime, which has plunged relations between Cuba and the United States to one of their lowest points in decades.

Since arriving a year ago, Cason has made a point of bluntly condemning the Castro government in ways that many political observers consider unprecedented, not only with his words but through numerous meetings with members of Cuba's fledgling dissident movement.

More...
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/politics/ny-wocuba31q3438288sep02,0,5439617.story?coll=ny-lipolitics-print

[Feanorcurufinwe]

193. Bush's government is evil

all here agree on that point.

Can Cubans advocate for a change in political and economic systems and criticise Castro or do they risk arrest for doing so?

"While Cuba's domestic legislation includes broad statements of fundamental rights, other provisions grant the state extraordinary authority to penalize individuals who attempt to enjoy their rights to free expression, opinion, press, association, and assembly. In recent years, rather than modify its laws to conform to international human rights standards, Cuba has approved legislation further restricting fundamental rights. A notable exception to this trend is the partial restoration of religious freedom. But Cuba has consistently refused to reform the most objectionable elements of its laws. Cuba's concurrent refusal to amnesty political prisoners and its continued prosecution of nonviolent activists highlight the critical role that Cuba's laws play in its machinery of repression.

The Cuban Criminal Code lies at the core of Cuba's repressive machinery, unabashedly prohibiting nonviolent dissent. With the Criminal Code in hand, Cuban officials have broad authority to repress peaceful government opponents at home. Cuban law tightly restricts the freedoms of speech, association, assembly, press, and movement. In an extraordinary June 1998 statement, Cuban Justice Minister Roberto Díaz Sotolongo justified Cuba's restrictions on dissent by explaining that, as Spain had instituted laws to protect the monarch from criticism, Cuba was justified in protecting Fidel Castro from criticism, since he served a similar function as Cuba's "king." "
Human Rights Watch


"ARTICLE 62. None of the freedoms which are recognized for citizens can be exercised contrary to what is established in the Constitution and by law, or contrary to the existence and objectives of the socialist state, or contrary to the decision of the Cuban people to build socialism and communism. Violations of this principle can be punished by law."
Constitution of the Republic of Cuba, 1992

[Mika]

195. I guess you've never heard of the Varela petition

""I support changing the constitution of Cuba to move it toward a capitalist system like they have in the United States"
It is illegal to utter this statement in Cuba."


Feanorcurufinwe, you are out to lunch. You know NOTHING about Cuba.

There are legal political parties in Cuba that espouse moving toward a capitalist system. One of them is the Cuban Christian Democratic Party, sponsor of the Varela petition, of which Oswaldo Paya is the spokesperson.

You know jack shit about Cuba.. and that's the way the US government likes it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

197. Considering that it figures prominently in the Amnesty Int. report I cited

as well as the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights report I cited, yes, I have.

The "Todos Unidos" ("All Together") movement sponsored the Proyecto Varela petition for a referendum on fundamental freedoms. On 10 May Oswaldo Payá Sardiñas of the Movimiento Cristiano Liberación, Christian Liberation Movement, and other Proyecto Varela leaders presented more than 11,000 signatures to the National Assembly demanding a referendum on fundamental freedoms. Shortly afterwards, former US President Carter arrived in Cuba and, in an unprecedented move, was allowed to address the nation in a live broadcast. He supported the Proyecto Varela petition and discussed a range of human rights matters.

On 12 June, the authorities organized a massive march in support of a new referendum initiative which would maintain the existing system. On 20 June, a petition signed by a reported 99 per cent of Cuban voters was submitted to the National Assembly calling for reaffirmed commitment to socialism. Six days later, the National Assembly voted unanimously in favour of a Constitutional amendment declaring the socialist system irrevocable and making it illegal in future for lawmakers to attempt to change it. Proyecto Varela supporters declared that this was a response to their initiative, but the authorities stated that it was in response to calls from US President Bush for a change of government in Cuba.
http://web.amnesty.org/web/web.nsf/print/cub-summary-eng


14. The Cuban State is violating the people’s political rights not just by refusing to hold free elections that meet internationally accepted standards, but also by ignoring the principles of its own Constitution. In effect, during the period covered by this report, and invoking articles 63 and 88 <6> of Cuba’s Constitution, a group of Cuban citizens called “Todos Unidos,” representing more than 140 organizations and coordinated by Osvaldo Payá Sardiñas, presented a petition-with 11,020 signatures-to the General Assembly of the People’s Power asking the Cuban regime for a constitutional referendum to introduce substantive changes in the law. The so-called Varela Project petitions the National Assembly for a referendum on the amendments needed in the laws, preserving the general welfare and respect for human rights. <7> The Cuban authorities’ response came a few days after the “Varela Project” was presented. Their response was a nationwide mobilization in which 800,000 signatures were gathered to declare the Cuban Constitution and the socialist system irrevocable. The Commission was also told that prominent notables from the peaceful opposition like Gustavo Arcos Bergnes, Elizardo Sánchez, Julio Ruiz Pitaluga, Osvaldo Payá Sardiñas -coordinator of the Christian Liberation Movement-, Héctor Palacios Ruiz, and Pedro Pablo Álvarez were among those who signed the Varela Project petition. Cuban authorities arbitrarily arrested them, confiscated their documents and personal belongings and temporarily prohibited them from leaving the country.

15. During the IACHR’s 116th regular session, Dr. Marcelino Miyares, a member of the Human Rights Commission of the Christian Democratic Party, spoke at length about the Varela Project. She stated that the violations of Cuban citizens’ basic rights are basically of four types:
1.- The “preliminary version of the Varela Project bill” has not been publicized, as the current law requires.
2.- Restrictions on personal communication via telephone and the Internet, and on access to the mass media.
3.- Repression in the form of detentions; public censure, beatings, threats and terror. We are providing written testimony concerning these acts of oppression. <8>
<snip>
k. Agustín Cervantes García, 27, and José Alberto Castro Aguilar, 30, who were running the Varela Project in the city of Contramaestra, in Santiago de Cuba province, have been in custody since November 16, 2002, the date on which they were the victims of a public censure organized by State security. These young men, who are accused of the supposed crime of “contempt for authority against the person of Fidel Castro,” were first held at the Contramaestre Police Unit. State security then transferred them by government bus to the Moscú prison, where the common prisoners, upon learning the story of these two young men, began to shout “Viva Varela Project” and “Down with Fidel”. When that happened, they were transferred again, this time under heavy police escort, to the Mar Verde maximum security prison. Another case that occurred in the same city, also related to the Varela Project, is that of activist Lázaro Rosales Roja. On November 19, 2002, four individuals appeared at his place of residence. One showed Rosales his identification, which was Revolutionary National Police officer Nº 21592. He told Rosales Roja that he should come with them. When Rosales Roja refused, the agents forced their way into his home, threw him to the floor and beat him, injuring him with a piece of glass that cut his left cheek. When the victim went to the Police Unit to file a complaint about what happened, they told him that the assailants were thugs, that he should look for them himself and turn them in. On November 22, 2002, the manager of the Varela Project, Rogelio Travieso Pérez, was taken by State security agents to a place he was unable to identify, because they forced him to keep his head down in the car. There these agents questioned him for several hours. The Commission has also received reports to the effect that State security is threatening and pressuring friends and other persons who have some association with Oswaldo Payá Sardiñas or with some of his relatives. Similar incidents have occurred with other Varela Project managers. <21>
http://www.cidh.org/annualrep/2002eng/chap.4a.htm

Why insult me? I'm not insulting you and I am asking you respectfully to please keep the discussion about the issues and ideas and treat me with the same respect with which I am trying to treat you.

Indeed I don't know a lot about Cuba as I state very clearly in the About Cuba thread. I'm just a disinterested Montana dem who got drawn into a discussion about Cuba because I have a passion for precise language and I jumped on someone's particularly sloppy usage. In the course of the discussion I have read an awful lot, for instance I had never bothered to look up Amnesty International's report because, frankly, Cuba has never been a big issue for me. So I just assumed the tales of repression in Cuba were more of the usual propaganda and hyperbole. But I don't think all these reports from all these organizations as well as the express words of Article 62 of the Cuban constitution, can just be dismissed as propaganda. I also read several discussions of the Cuban democratic system, as well as some comparisons between it and Soviet, Irish and American systems.
Because of who I am and my basic mindset, even though I never gave alot of thought to Cuba, I always thought of Che Guevara and Fidel Castro as heroes. Even if I have read and cited some things that don't paint the human rights situation in Cuba as good that basic opinion is not going to change overnight. But as I am learning more I am trying to keep my mind open so that my ideas will be based on the facts and not on my preconceived notions, nor by the strident propangada put out by the extremes on either side of these issues. As I've said, the most sensible thing I've read so far is the Carter speech, but I am still formulating my viewpoints.

[Osolomia]

203. What a load of bunk!!!

"The Commission was also told that prominent notables from the peaceful opposition like Gustavo Arcos Bergnes, Elizardo Sánchez, Julio Ruiz Pitaluga, Osvaldo Payá Sardiñas -coordinator of the Christian Liberation Movement-, Héctor Palacios Ruiz, and Pedro Pablo Álvarez were among those who signed the Varela Project petition. Cuban authorities arbitrarily arrested them, confiscated their documents and personal belongings and temporarily prohibited them from leaving the country."

That's funny, AP and Reuters and just about every other major news organization around the world says Oswaldo Paya was freely travelling around Europe and the USA at the time, even met with Colin Powell in Washington:

Powell Meets Leading Cuban Dissident Oswaldo Paya
Reuters
Monday, January 6, 2003; 8:09 PM
http://www.hermanos.org/docs/reuters010603.html

Go figure!!!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

204. words have meanings. We can read.

"14. The Cuban State is violating the people’s political rights not just by refusing to hold free elections that meet internationally accepted standards, but also by ignoring the principles of its own Constitution. In effect, during the period covered by this report, and invoking articles 63 and 88 <6> of Cuba’s Constitution, a group of Cuban citizens called “Todos Unidos,” representing more than 140 organizations and coordinated by Osvaldo Payá Sardiñas, presented a petition-with 11,020 signatures-to the General Assembly of the People’s Power asking the Cuban regime for a constitutional referendum to introduce substantive changes in the law. The so-called Varela Project petitions the National Assembly for a referendum on the amendments needed in the laws, preserving the general welfare and respect for human rights. <7> The Cuban authorities’ response came a few days after the “Varela Project” was presented. Their response was a nationwide mobilization in which 800,000 signatures were gathered to declare the Cuban Constitution and the socialist system irrevocable. The Commission was also told that prominent notables from the peaceful opposition like Gustavo Arcos Bergnes, Elizardo Sánchez, Julio Ruiz Pitaluga, Osvaldo Payá Sardiñas -coordinator of the Christian Liberation Movement-, Héctor Palacios Ruiz, and Pedro Pablo Álvarez were among those who signed the Varela Project petition. Cuban authorities arbitrarily arrested them, confiscated their documents and personal belongings and temporarily prohibited them from leaving the country."
http://www.cidh.org/annualrep/2002eng/chap.4a.htm

[Mika]

208. Feanorcurufinwe, I agree with you.. you don't know a lot about Cuba.

"Indeed I don't know a lot about Cuba as I state very clearly in the About Cuba thread. "

Then it kinda makes one wonder why you would post postulations like,

"" I think the basic economic system in this country should be changed by amending the Constitution."
ILLEGAL to say in Cuba
LEGAL to say in the United States"

..if you don't know much about Cuba, and have never been there.



Just for your info, I was arrested and jailed by brutal jackboot US government thugs for peacefully protesting, during the 2000 selection fiasco, for carrying a sign requesting a recount of the ballots, in Miami-Dade county USA. Many people were arrested for peacefully protesting there - something I have never seen at a peaceful protest in Cuba, including anti Castro/ pro capitalist/ pro religionist protests. (BTW, FYI, the cast ballots are counted and recounted IN PUBLIC for evey election in every district in Cuba.) These experiences have changed my perception of the limits of 'free speech' and open democracy, both in Cuba and in the USA.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

209. Yes you were arrested but it was an illegal arrest.

That is the difference. I also have been illegally detained in the United States. The police abuse their power in the United States just as they do in every country in the world and just as they always will because it is the nature of human beings to be corrupted by power. But the US constitution says you have the right to free speech and free assembly. It doesn't have any qualifiers. If the police violate the Constitution that's wrong and We the People have more than a right we have a responsibility to try to hold them account for their actions. The constitution of Cuba says something quite different. So when the cops arrested you they were acting contrary to the US constitution. In any system, there will be abuses of power. But what I read in the Cuban constitution codifies that abuse into something with the veneer of legality.

No matter how many times you try to justify one wrong with another, it just doesn't add up. I will fight against oppression whether it takes place in Tibet, Burma, Cuba or the United States or anywhere else. Wrong is wrong no matter who commits it.

BTW, Cuba is not the only topic that I could learn more about. I can't think of any topic where I know everything. There never will be such a topic. Life is about learning and growing. And teaching when the opportunity arises. When you encounter someone who is seeking to learn about a subject you care deeply about, I don't think pushing that person into an adversarial position is the best way to do it.

I tried in post 197 to reach out a hand of friendship to you in the hopes that we could move this away from an argument and towards a discussion. I am appealing to you again. I feel no hostility towards you or any other poster here, I feel no hostility towards Cuba or towards socialism in general. But nothing, no system of government, no group of people, is perfect. Socialism when I first learned about it sounded like a great system. But in practice, one-party socialism has a history, where ever it has been the system, of repressing rights. And what I am reading from Amnesty International, from Human Rights Watch, from Reporters Without Borders, etc., is telling me that Cuba is no exception.

As I've said, I am still formulating my viewpoint on these matters. Please don't push me into a position by attacking me as if I am on 'the other side' from you. I am not.

I do feel outrage when I learn of oppression, whether at the hands of the Cuban government, the US government, a private militia or gang or just a random act. But pointing out one evil does not justify another.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

183. Reporters Without Borders

Reporters Without Borders 2003 annual report on Cuba:
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=6194

Reporters Without Borders 2003 annual report on the United States:
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=6228

[Judi Lynn]

186. Interesting to know how the Bush U.S. fares with Reporters Without Borders

Reporters Without Borders
10/25/02
The first worldwide index of press freedom has some surprises for Western democracies. The United States ranks below Costa Rica and Italy scores lower than Benin. The five countries with least press freedom are North Korea, China, Burma, Turkmenistan and Bhutan. The top five are Finland, Iceland, Norway, Netherlands, and Canada.
(snip)

http://www.bushtimes.com/cgi-bin/iowa/news/?shorttakes=1

Here's the list:

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=4116

We're number 17, we're number 17! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: </sarcasm>

[Judi Lynn]

188. The dissident reporters in Cuba are U.S. employees

(snip)Since becoming principal officer at the U.S. Interests Section in Havana in September 2002, James Cason has increased official U.S. connections with Cuban dissidents. Entering directly into Cuba domestic politics, Cason helped launch the youth wing of the dissident Partido Liberal Cubano. Nowhere in the world, said Foreign Minister Felipe Perez Roque, would it be legal for a foreigner to participate in the formation of a political party. In October 2002, Cason invited a group of dissidents to meet with U.S. newspaper editors at his residence in Havana. Although it has become routine for heads of the U.S. mission to seek out dissidents, it was unusual to meet them at home.

Feb. 24 of this year, he participated in a meeting of the dissident Assembly for the Promotion of Civil Society at the home of prominent dissident Marta Beatriz Roque. Also present at the meeting were several reporters to whom Cason repeated his criticisms of President Fidel Castro's government and reaffirmed U.S. support for dissidents.

Cason organized two other such meetings at his residence in March even after receiving a formal complaint from the Foreign Ministry.

In a recent television interview in Miami, Cason said the help he gave dissidents was "moral and spiritual" in nature. But, according to the testimony of several Cuban security agents who infiltrated the organizations that received U.S. support, the Interests Section became a general headquarters and office space for dissidents. Some of them, including Marta Beatriz Roque, had passes signed by Cason that allowed them free access to the Interests Section where they could use computers, telephones, and office machines.

The State Department calls these activities "outreach." However, under the United States Code, similar "outreach" by a foreign diplomat in the United States could result in criminal prosecution and a 10-year prison sentence for anyone "who agrees to operate within the United States subject to the direction or control of a foreign government or official (Title 18, section 951 of the United States Code). (snsip/...)

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/05/69628.html


(snip)ADVICE TO CUBAN DISSIDENTS: Beware U.S. Senators Bearing Gifts
By JOANNE MARINER
----
Monday, Jun. 25, 2001

As part of his latest misconceived effort to undermine the Cuban government, Senator Jesse Helms last month unveiled plans to allocate up to $100 million over four years to assist dissidents, opposition groups, political prisoners and other non-governmental voices in Cuba.

The Helms bill, jointly sponsored by Senator Joseph Lieberman, would authorize the Bush administration to supply Cuban beneficiaries with food, medicine, educational materials, office equipment, telephones and faxes, as well as "other financial assistance" — that is, cash.

Defenders of U.S. policy toward Cuba like to hearken back to successful precedents in which international pressure and concern have facilitated undeniable advances in human rights. When the U.S. trade embargo on Cuba is criticized, for example, they reflexively refer back to the South African experience with apartheid.

It should come as no surprise, then, that the present legislation, called the Cuban Solidarity Act of 2001, is self-consciously modeled after aid provided to the Polish Solidarity movement in the 1980s. But whether or not American-supplied fax machines helped hasten the downfall of Poland's Communist government — thereby promoting the "liberty and economic opportunity" of the Polish people (as the present bill purports to do for Cubans) — U.S. funding is unlikely to have a similar impact in Cuba.

In fact, rather than aiding the Cuban opposition, U.S. financial assistance would almost certainly have the opposite effect. By branding dissidents and opposition figures as paid agents of the U.S. government, the aid would go far toward damaging their credibility and discrediting their views. (snip/...)
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/mariner/20010625.html
(This program addresses DIRECT aid to dissidents, rather than using any of the previous third party methods.)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

189. All of them?

It's all a plot by the US? There is no dissent in Cuba unless fomented by the US?

[Mika]

198. You haven't read the links, obviously

"There is no dissent in Cuba unless fomented by the US?"


What an absoloutely jackass question, especially in light of the fact that there have been links on this thread, directed at you for your 'education', showing otherwise. Links indicating that some of Cuba's leading domestic product dissidents have been begging for the end of US financing of other so called "dissident" groups that taints them all, and calling for an end to the US sanctions which hurt the Cuban people the most. Links you claim to have read, but either you haven't, or you're just disrupting the thread with jackass questions and lies.

Why don't you do some research on Cuba's domestic (non US funded) political parties and opposition? There's more than enough links on this thread to get you started on your studies - so you don't post idiotic questions like the above. (But, looking at the pattern of your posts, I think you aren't really interested in educating yourself about Cuba.. but instead, just slandering the island and its people.)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

199. Take any group of 100 people, some won't agree, whatever the issue.

You are trying to say that among millions of Cubans, NONE dissent unless it is fomented by the US. It just is contrary to human nature.

It is a known and accepted fact that the US DOES foment dissent. I am not saying it doesn't. That does not mean that ALL dissent is due to US meddling.

PS. the post you are responding to was answering the statement: "The dissident reporters in Cuba are U.S. employees"

to which I asked "All of them? It's all a plot by the US? There is no dissent in Cuba unless fomented by the US?"

so to spell it out my point is that yes, some are US agents and provacatuers but it does not follow that all are.

[Osolomia]

205. Then why are US taxpayers still financing “dissidents” in Cuba?

If there is non-US government funded dissent, which there is, then then why do you need to give zillions of US taxpayers dollars each year to the Batistiano “exiles” in Florida and their choice of “dissidents” in Cuba? Huh?

And why do you ignore what Oswaldo Paya and Elizandro Sanchez and other non-US government funded dissidents in Cuba have been trying to tell you for several years now about US government interference?

"We do not support any kind of foreign pressure from abroad as a factor for change in Cuba." the Varela Project’s Oswaldo Paya in Washington, January 6, 2003 http://www.hermanos.org/docs/reuters010603.html

They even got Carter to plead with y’all but if the 2004 Dem presidential candidates are any indication Dems still refuse to listen:

The Miami Herald
May. 17, 2002
Carter says dissidents opposed D.C. aid

BY NANCY SAN MARTIN
A report to the Bush Administration by former President Jimmy Carter on his landmark trip to Cuba will include the view that the dissident community overwhelmingly opposes both the four decade-old economic embargo and a proposal -- expected to be unveiled Monday -- to send financial aid to political opponents of the Cuban government.

''They were unanimous, and very strong in their belief, that there should be maximum encouragement for American business to come to Cuba,'' Carter, who met with about 35 of Cuba's most prominent dissidents during his five-day visit, said in a live interview with CNN before his departure from Havana Friday.

''They were unanimous, and very strong in their belief, that there should be no aid coming to them, directly or indirectly from the U.S. government, that this puts a stigma on them or a condemnation on them as being subservient to Washington,'' Carter said. ``Not a single one of them said that they wanted to be identified in any way with financial assistance from the U.S. government.''

More...
http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/us-cuba/carter-aid.htm

Go figure!!!

[Judi Lynn]

200. Mika, I'm keeping an eye on the Latin Grammys from Miami tonight

I'm curious about whether or not any Cuban artists will be mentioned, after the _Bush administration locked them out, after they had all been here in earlier times, before _Bush. Creepy, isn't it?

Here's an intriguing article, which has some totally unique moves by Bush's government!



(snip) Published Tuesday, September 2, 2003

Prosecutors expand charges against 6 admitted Cuban hijackers

The Associated Press
MIAMI
Prosecutors have expanded charges in a politically sensitive case against six admitted Cuban hijackers by adding two counts carrying a possible life prison sentence.

The six Cuban men, already facing possible life sentences on air piracy and conspiracy charges, now also are charged with interfering with a flight crew and a related conspiracy count.

Their trial is to start Monday in Key West.

The revision follows an unusual investigative trip by five defense attorneys, prosecutors and the FBI to Cuba, which accused the United States of being soft on hijackers after a spate of plane and boat hijackings in March and April.

In turn, the staunchly Republican Cuban-American community in Miami has criticized the Bush administration for being too harsh on Cubans trying to reach the United States. (snip/...)

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20030902/APN/309020784

[Feanorcurufinwe]

190. Bush is evil

everyone here agrees with that. So what?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

194. RWB list: USA 17th, Cuba 134th out of 139 countries.

The poor ranking of the United States (17th) is mainly because of the number of journalists arrested or imprisoned there. Arrests are often because they refuse to reveal their sources in court. Also, since the 11 September attacks, several journalists have been arrested for crossing security lines at some official buildings.

<snip>

Cuba, the last dictatorship in Latin America, came 134th and is the only country in the region where there is no diversity of news and journalists are routinely imprisoned.
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=4116

It is terrible what's happened in the US lately. Let's hope it never becomes 'routine'.

[Judi Lynn]

167. Inter-American Commission on Human Rights on the U.S.

(snip) The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights issued a strong warning to the United States, putting U.S. government officials on notice that no person under the authority and control of a state is devoid of legal protections, even in times of national emergency.

The IHRLG request for precautionary measures, signed by the Center for Constitutional Rights and the Center for Justice and International Law, challenged the U.S. government to either release or justify why they were maintaining custody of dozens of INS detainees, and to provide details on detainee names, nationalities and places of detention.
The detainees were Muslim men of Arab or South Asian descent, who had neither been charged nor accused of terrorist activity. In each case, the detainees had agreed to voluntarily leave the country or had been ordered deported and were able and willing to return to their home countries. Yet, the United States continued to detain them on the mere premise that one day evidence linking them to terrorist activity may be uncovered. In an attempt to justify this procedure, the United States had instituted an ambiguous practice of mandating that the FBI "clear" detainees before allowing them to return to their home countries, though there is no evidence against them necessitating such action.

On February 13, 2003 IHRLG joined the Center for Constitutional Rights in petitioning the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights to request precautionary measures against the United States alleging torture and other cruel and inhumane treatment of prisoners held in the war on terrorism outside the U.S. and Guantanamo Bay. The petition addresses U.S. detention practices in facilities at Bagram Air Force Base in Afghanistan, Diego Garcia military base in the Chagos Islands, as well as the "renditions" of suspects, still under U.S. custody, to third countries for interrogation purposes. (snip/...)
http://www.hrlawgroup.org/initiatives/911detainees.asp

[Judi Lynn]

161. HRW on US support of Colombian terrorists

(snip) Today's certification releases approximately $27 million in military aid. It marks the fifth time in three years that the State Department has certified Colombia despite compelling evidence of non-compliance with six conditions contained in Public Law 108-7, which regulates foreign aid for fiscal year 2003. Colombia receives the third largest amount of U.S. military aid, after Israel and Egypt.

The most important condition requires Colombia's armed forces to sever links with paramilitary groups. Yet the Colombian military continues to work with paramilitaries that are included on the State Department's list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations. (snip/...)
http://hrw.org/press/2003/07/colombia0708.htm


See next post-

[Feanorcurufinwe]

166. two wrongs don't make a right

[Osolomia]

177. Cuba's "human rights abuses" amount to sweet F all

when put into the context of the real world around us, and are no justication whatosever for Americans intransigent hostility towards the country in this day and internet age.

Do any of these human rights reports mention the "thousands" of murdered Cuban dissidents that so many DUers like to fantasize about?

Do any of them mention the US taxpayer funding of the "exiles" and "dissidents" and "independent journalists"?

If not, why not?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

180. If I lived in Cuba

I could be put in jail for publicizing these human rights reports if the government decided it was 'contrary to the existence and objectives of the socialist state'.

"ARTICLE 62. None of the freedoms which are recognized for citizens can be exercised contrary to what is established in the Constitution and by law, or contrary to the existence and objectives of the socialist state, or contrary to the decision of the Cuban people to build socialism and communism. Violations of this principle can be punished by law."
Constitution of the Republic of Cuba, 1992

Yes they absolutely should be put into context. Everyone who wants to learn about Cuba should read these reports and decide for themselves what to make of them.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/
http://www.cidh.org/annualrep/2002eng/chap.4a.htm
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/cub-summary-eng


I think the most insightful thing I've read is Jimmy Carter s May 14, 2002 speech at the University of Havana.
I posted it above, but I think it is worth putting out there again.

[Mika]

196. Get real. Same in the US

"I could be put in jail for publicizing these human rights reports if the government decided it was 'contrary to the existence and objectives of the socialist state'. "


Same in the US if the government decided it was in the name of "national security".



"Everyone who wants to learn about Cuba should read these reports and decide for themselves what to make of them."


Ha!

How about the novel idea of our government allowing Americans to decide for ouselves, by going there to see for ourselves? Wow. What a concept.

[Judi Lynn]

169. Center for International Human Rights on medical aspects of the embargo

"Cuba And The United States: A Poor Prescription For Human Rights"
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clinic/ihr/display_details.cfm?ID=58&document_type=commentary

[Judi Lynn]

170. Inter-American Commission on Human Rights concerning the embargo

Human rights body criticises embargo
The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, a legal tribunal within the Organisation of American States, is urging the US government to end restrictions on the shipment of medicine and basic foods to Cuba.

In a recent letter to the US government, the commission requested “that the United States of America put in place mechanisms to ensure that the necessary steps are taken for exemptions from the trade embargo in respect of medicine, medical supplies and basic food items are capable of effective and speedy implementation”.

The OAS action comes in response to a petition charging the US with violations of international law resulting in human suffering in Cuba. The case is being brought by attorneys from the Center for Human Rights Legal Action and the Center for Constitutional Rights.

At a hearing before the commission on February 3, attorneys Wallie Mason and Sara Rios argued that the Cuban Democracy Act, which sets forth the terms of the current US-imposed embargo against Cuba, violates various provisions of international law, including the provision that trade embargoes must provide a “humanitarian exception” for medicines and basic foodstuffs in order not to cause unnecessary suffering amongst civilian populations.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1995/180/180p22b.htm

[Feanorcurufinwe]

174. I thought you said the OAS was a puppet of the US?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=116&topic_id=1068&mesg_id=1122&page=

Now you are quoting them criticising US policy. So are they credible or not?

[Judi Lynn]

172. O.A.S. excudes the U.S. from I-A Commission on Human Rights

(snip)O.A.S. Votes Against U.S. Candidate for Human Rights Group

The New York Times
By Larry Rohter
June 12, 2003

BUENOS AIRES, June 11 - In a symbolic rebuke to the Bush administration, the member nations of the Organization of American States have for the first time voted to exclude the United States from representation on the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, considered the most prestigious human rights monitoring body in the Western Hemisphere. (snip)

(snip) In private, several nations were critical of what they characterized as Mr. Powell's excessive and narrow focus on Cuba at the expense of other issues. The theme of this year's assembly, which ended Tuesday, was "Democratic Governability in the Americas," which most delegations saw as an opportunity to express concern about growing social inequities and flagging economic growth in the region.

"There is a readiness among member states to talk about Cuba, but in a balanced way, and not only about human rights," a senior O.A.S. official said in a meeting with reporters Monday in Santiago. "Many states, some of Latin America and all of the Caribbean," he said, also "want to talk about the isolation of Cuba, the embargo, and all of that. (snip/...)
http://ciponline.org/cuba/cubainthenews/newsarticles/nyt061203Rohter.htm

This wasn't publicized, actually.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

176. Seems to speak volumes for the credibility of the OAS

[Judi Lynn]

210. For anyone who's interested

They are voting today in the House of Representatives on removing funds which are used in prosecuting Americans travelling to Cuba, and increasing amounts of money Cuban immigrants may send back to their relatives or friends in Cuba.

This is being carried on C-Span 1. It's part of the Transportation Bill. They haven't gotten to the Cuba portion yet, but I presume it could come up at any point during the day.

It's bound to be a knock-down, drag-out, with a win for the majority of Americans interested in getting ahead in the relationship. The ones who will be shrieking, bellowing, waving their hands around, and pounding their fists will be the Republicans, Lincoln Diaz-Balart, Chris Smith, and Tom Delay, if they follow the pattern of previous years.

Anyone can follow it on-line at www.c-span.org
Click on C-Span 1.

On edit:
Voting themselves a pay raise is also part of this Transportation Bill.