Japanese Hostage Killed in Iraq - AP

[UpInArms]

2:49pm EST 10/29/04 JAPANESE CIVILIAN TAKEN HOSTAGE IN IRAQ KILLED - AP

short newsline at CBSMarketwatch

http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/newsfinder/default.asp?refresh=on&Property=symb&Value=&doctype=806&submit=Go&scid=0&siteid=mktw

:(

[Kagemusha]

1. Koizumi gets to pay the price for toughness this time.

Last time he got off easy.

[fishface]

2. So much for taking a sightseeing trip into Bagdad huh?

WTF was that idiot thinking??

[JSJ]

11. terrorist v tourist= godzilla v bambi

[karlrschneider]

3. DAMMIT. I hate to hear that, saw his pic on TV, looks a lot like a good

friend of mine in Japan.
:cry:

[Peanut Gallery]

7. I hate to hear it too

He was only 24. Condolences to his parents and family.

[LiberalBushFan]

4. How much was the discount for one to go sightseeing in Baghdad?

You'd think one would realize there's a reason why the tourism package costs negative 5000 dollars.

Perhaps there is more to the story than what we've been told? Could he perhaps been something other than a tourist?

[rockydem]

5. murderers

I hope Kerry can do a better job of hunting down these fuckin' thugs.

They deserve whatever they have coming to them - the sooner the better.

[Crunchy Frog]

6. I'm sorry, but for every foreign civilian

who's killed there, hundreds of innocent Iraqi civilians are. The thugs are the ones who created this situation in the first place, first by the unprovoked invasion and occupation of a sovereign country, and then by not even having the planning and the troops in place to create and maintain stability afterwords.

These foreign civilians who are getting killed are entering an extremely dangerous war zone by their own free choice. They have to know what kind of risk they're taking. Their deaths are tragic, but this is exactly the kind of shit that happens during war, which is why you avoid it whenever possible.

The thugs in this country who support Bush and support his war are far more guilty IMO than those people in Iraq, who, as savage as it may look to us, probably see what they're doing as a legitimate form of resistance to an illegitimate foreign occupation.

I am sure that many Iraqis regard the American troops as "fuckin'thugs" who "deserve whatever they have coming to them - the sooner the better."

My hope is that Kerry can defuse the cycle of conflict and revenge, persuade the Iraqis that we have no intention to keep Iraq as a permanent colony, and introduce order, so that these things stop happening.

[rockydem]

8. The religious nuts who do this were nuts before we invaded Iraq

* has given them an international platform - but they were already thugs and psychos before we got there...

Just yesterday they posted a tape on the net - they killed 11 Iraqi National Guardsmen - just regular poor Iraqis trying to feed their families. They beheaded one - lined up four and shot them in the back of the head - one after the other - and then laid down down the rest in a pile - while they were still alive and emptied an AK clip into their bodies...

They are evil people - they are members of a murderous cult. And Kerry will hunt them down and kill them. He will also bring the world together to oppose these murderers.

[Crunchy Frog]

9. There are religious nuts everywhere.

We have plenty of them in this country too, along with other assorted "thugs and psychos". Some of them are responsible for creating this war. Some of them are even in Iraq serving in our military. Should we deal with them all by "hunting them down and killing them" too?

One could make the case that American Evangelical Christians of some stripes are also members of a murderous cult. Should we hunt them down and kill them too? Many of them helped to enable this situation.

People are getting killed there because Bush stirred up a hornets nest, not because there are religious nuts and psychos, as there are in any society.

As far as Iraqi National Guardsman getting killed, most likely, Iraqi insurgents regard them as agents of an illegitimate foreign occupation and therefore as enemy soldiers who are legitimate targets (I'm talking about from their perspective). What would you do if, say, our country had been invaded and occupied by China, and the Chinese had put together an army of American collaborators to act as their agents? Would you be supporting the Chinese occupation or would you fight against it? Would you regard Americans who were fighting on behalf of the Chinese as legitimate targets?

The world is not as simplistic and black and white as your post would suggest.

[rockydem]

10. The people who do this kind of thing *are* thugs and psychos

You can try and water down that point by saying there are thugs and psychos everywhere - but that doesn't change what they *are* and what they've
*done*.

Why can't you call these people for what they are? The people who carry out these barbaric acts represent the extreme end of an extremely loosely affiliated insurgency (some parts not even affiliated). I am seeing the complexities - I'm not saying it's black and white. These acts are repulsing many of the Iraqis who are opposed to the US being there/staying there... There are many different groups fighting over there with differing agendas, motives and tactics. These thugs are evil though. Straight up.

I think you're the one who's being simplistic by labelling them all "insurgents battling an evil US tyrant, etc., etc."

And Pat Robertson is a right-wing extremist - but he doesn't even come close to the level of psychopathic barbarism that these thugs demonstrate. Not. Even. Close.

[Barrett808]

12. I say, "Reinstall Saddam" -- he did a pretty good job keeping the lid on

The West can just refrain from selling him WMD this time.

[rockydem]

13. Howard Stern has joked about that

Since this is a serious thread I'll just say - no one seriously considers that - but it is a humorous aside.

[Anakin Skywalker]

15. LOL!

:)

[barb162]

23. in some interviews being done with ordinary Iraqis, they are

saying exactly this.

[barb162]

24. but then again if you asked the Kurds and others this same

question, I bet they would say forget Saddam.

[Barrett808]

30. I saw some numbers that claimed Saddam would get a plurality of 40%

If he were on the ballot in January, handily beating every other contender. Certainly, most of the Sunnis would vote for him.

[barb162]

32. before the war I kept saying that country would split into 3 groups if

we ever invaded. I hold the same view today. Saddam held it together with brute force. It never was a "country" in the sense of a people coming together in some fashion to form a nation.

I can see why they would want Saddam back. They had reliable necessities to some extent (more than we can provide). Now nothing is reliable in that country and there is way higher unemployment. Oh, we have made such a f-----g mess of it and all those dead and injured NEEDLESSLY. These beheadings....

[Crunchy Frog]

16. Could you please point out to me where I labelled

them "insurgents battling an evil US tyrant", because I don't think I said that. I merely pointed out that many of them probably regard themselves as fighting against an illegitimate foreign occupation of their country. The bottom line is that we did invade and occupy their country illegitimately, so they probably have some justification for this point of view.

As for psychopathic barbarism, what could even come close to starting a war that has cost 100,000 Iraqis, most of them civilians, their lives? What do you call dropping a bomb on a wedding party and killing 50 people? This was the act of our own government and military, and none of the insurgent's violence has even come close. The various RW extremists, Pat Robertson among them, helped to enable this act of psychopathic barbarism.

By the way, have you ever heard about Pat Robertson's statements in support of detonating a nuclear device at the State Department, or his urging his followers to pray for the deaths of Supreme Court justices? Given the right set of circumstances, do you really think he wouldn't be capable of behaving just like the religious extremists in Iraq?

That being said, I do not deny that there are barbaric, psychopathic thugs and religious extremists in Iraq engaging in unacceptable acts of violence and brutality. We need to do everything we can to stop them, for the sake of the Iraqi people whom we unleashed them on, but going in with a simplistic attitude of "hunt 'em down and kill 'em" is likely to only make the situation worse, and we are likely to kill even more civilians in the process.

I think the situation there requires a bit more finesse (sorry for the French word), and dare I say it, sensitivity, in order for the violence to be successfully stopped. I think and hope that Kerry will do that.

[rockydem]

17. we could go back and forth forever

Just three things - first - there are foreign fighters in Iraq - and most of them represent this extreme savage, barabaric part of what has come to be called the 'insurgency".

Second - that wedding party killing saddened me to no end. But I would bet all I have that the pilots who did that felt bad about it (if they are aware of it). That's the difference. You take those American pilots and you put them in charge of that wedding party they wouldn't behead the people and line them up and execute them.

Third - the extremism - we have political extremists - they have political extremists - maybe they are two sides of the *same coin*. But just because Bush is an asshole doesn't make these fuckin' thugs anything but straight up fuckin' evil thugs. I guess in some ways they feed off eachother.

But I still think Pat Robertson is a far more decent fellow than the thugs who make these torture/murder tapes.

[Crunchy Frog]

22. First of all

I didn't blame the pilots for the wedding party incident. In my post I put the responsibility squarely on the heads of the Bush administration and the military leadership. However, are you aware of the pilot who was given a decoration for dropping a bomb that took out several civilian homes and killed at least a dozen civilians, back during the "war", when they thought they were bombing a restaurant that Saddam was supposedly at. (The pilot missed the actual restaurant, which Saddam wasn't at anyway).

Our political and military leaders have put in place rules of engagement that make this sort of thing very likely, and very common.

And for a more apt comparison, how about the behavior of the prison guards at Abu Graib? How bad do you think they feel about what they did? From what I've read, many of them feel bad that they were caught, but don't think they did anything wrong.

See, there are fuckin' murderous thugs on our side as well.

I agree, this back and forth is getting pointless, so I probably won't persue it much further.

My point stands, simply calling other people "fuckin' murderous thugs" and advocating killing them all, is probably an oversimplification that doesn't offer anything useful for actually putting a stop to the violence.

[saigon68]

27. PAT ROBINSON IS A THUG AND A HOODLUM

THERE IS NOTHING DECENT ABOUT HIM.hE IS A SHILL AND HAS MADE HIMSELF RICH BY PREACHING HATRED AND INTOLERENCE.

[rockydem]

28. LOL

alrighty then...

[rockydem]

14. The China analogy is not a valid analogy

If China invaded us - 99.999% of Americans would be violently opposed to them.

When we invaded Iraq (as wrong-headed as the decision was) a good number of the Iraqi people were glad to get rid of Saddam. Of course we bungled it - as was to be expected with idiots in charge. There are also a sizeable number of Iraqis who just want to get on with it - set up a government and take charge of their country. Of course any one who is trying to do that would be considered a target by the murderous thugs. These Iraqis are just trying to get on with it - they see it as a light at the end of the tunnel - and a way to end the occupation as well.

The fuckin' murderous thugs want a Taliban-like government. Fuck them. They are a minority, and if they get their way, they will impose a Taliban like govt. on Iraq - even though I guarantee you most Iraqis do not want that kind of nightmare.

[Crunchy Frog]

18. "If China invaded us"

"If China invaded us - 99.999% of Americans would be violently opposed to them."

Are you certain of that? I'm not at all certain that would be the case. American people have a remarkable ability to go along to get along. How else do you explain people's acceptance of Bush's outrages. Large numbers of Americans are fat and complacent and would probably just try to get along as best they could under the new circumstances. Some Americans would be certain to collaberate with the occupiers.

What if, at the time, we were being ruled by a murderous tyrant and the Chinese were liberating us from him, while at the same time getting access to resources that they needed? Would that make it OK? What if some of the resistors were Pat Robertson types who wanted their own version of a Taliban like theocracy.

We can play around endlessly with analogies and various possible scenarios. The bottom line is that the invasion would still be illegitimate and resistors, whatever their motives for resisting, would see their acts as legitimate.

At any rate, our current techniques of hunting down and killing those fuckin' murderous thugs, is only having the effect of strengthening the hands of the religious extremists, making a Taliban like government more likely.

[rockydem]

20. Yes - if China invaded us

most would be violently opposed - I totally believe that.

We like our democracy - even if we're not always happy with the result.

And if I resisted a foreign government, I wouldn't behead civilians, while they're still alive with a dull kitchen knife.

I do believe there is a dark, nihilstic, psychopathy at the heart of many of these Islamic extremists that is remarkable in its barbarity.

[Crunchy Frog]

31. If we like our democracy so much

then how come half of eligible people don't even vote. And what do you mean by your remark about not being happy with the result? Do you mean to imply that those of us who oppose Bush are merely unhappy with the results of a legitimate and fair election? Are you suggesting that Bush came to power through democratic means?

And how do you know what you might do in resisting a foreign occupation force? What if the civilians were foreigners there to support or profit from, the occupation? What if they were mercenaries, civilians in name only?

What might you be capable of if your entire family had been killed by foreign invaders?

I'm just asking you to think about it. Do any of us really know what we would do?

[saigon68]

26. You mean the US Thugs bombing the innocent women and children

I can't wait to see a few of them at Leavenworth

like this SWEET HEART

[Buns_of_Fire]

19. Meanwhile, Margaret Hassan waits and pleads...

Houston Chronicle story

[fugue]

21. Whatever else can be said

This Japanese man was a civilian. He was not there to kill anybody, but he was killed.

I do not see how this is not sad. I do not see how it was not wrong.

[Crunchy Frog]

25. It's sad and it's wrong

but the man made a conscious choice to go into an extremely dangerous war zone where kidnappings and beheadings are occurring at an epidemic rate. I really feel that going into Iraq right now, knowing what is going on there is a very unwise decision. If I were to go over there and get kidnapped, I would blame no one but myself.

I feel the worst for the Iraqi civilians who have no choice about being there and are getting killed at an extremely high rate.

[The_Casual_Observer]

29. The United States is responsible for everything bad that happens in Iraq

We occupy the place. We invaded it for nothing and disrupted the place many people will continue to die needlessly for years to come because of the lunacy of bush and his handlers.

[ausiedownunderground]

33. Relax People - Headless body found not Japanese!

Oz media is reporting this morning that the headless body discovered near Tikrit is not that of the latest Japanese hostage. Phew!!! Islamic media is also reporting the same thing, and is accussing the US media of deciet in its reporting!!! As If!!!!!!

Unfortunately our media is also reporting that the "Black Watch" moving from Basra to Camp Dogwood south east of Baghdad was hit by an improvised explosive device on its way there. The reports are saying 1 soldier killed and 3 wounded. Islamic media is reporting the same thing. I'm sure the Brits are going to love this!!!! They haven't even got there and the've lost a soldier already. This transfer was telegraphed far to much by the US and British governments. The whole operation is a moving disaster waiting to happen. The iraqi guerillas must have been rubbing their hands in glee!!! I thought it was a government's responsibility to support their troops??? not get em killed so easily. DOWHHHHH!!!