Canada beckons left-leaning Yanks

[Minstrel Boy]

Canada beckons left-leaning Yanks

By GENE JOHNSON
The Associated Press
Nov 14

SEATTLE — Got the blue-state blues? Rudi Kischer feels your pain.

The Vancouver, British Columbia, immigration lawyer plans seminars in three U.S. cities — Seattle, San Francisco and Los Angeles — to tell Americans frustrated with President Bush's re-election that the grass is greener north of the border.

...

There was so much interest that a Vancouver-based Internet company, Communicopia, set up a new Web site this month — at http://www.canadianalternative.com — to suggest Canada as a viable option for its American clients.

...

Canada suddenly has utopian appeal for many left-leaning Americans. Its universal health care, homosexual rights, abortion rights, gun control laws, drug laws, opposition to the Iraq war, ban on capital punishment, and ethnic diversity mirror many values of the American left. Immigrants, including an estimated 1 million Americans, make up nearly 20 percent of Canada's population. The United Nations named Toronto the world's most multicultural city.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/world/10175838.htm

[Deja Q]

1. NAFTA and a flip-flop here.

What happened to 2 weeks ago when Canada was saying we'd have to wait our turn?

Don't forget NAFTA; in times of energy crises in the US, we can freely take Canadian resources. Oil, gas, energy.

[Maple]

10. PM said you were most welcome

Please stop believing the Canadian news that you get filtered through American versions.

And no, you can't take those things freely. Another myth.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

57. Thank you, Maple.

I'm sick of hearing all the misinformation about Canada lately.

[steely]

2. Sounds awfully tempting actually....

just too many family ties here -

only wish I could, eh? but someone's gotta be in the "resistance".

[Arioch]

3. For me it's just another possibility

My wife is Japanese and I am welcome there anytime...

Canada has more room though!
:D

[bhikkhu]

30. Coulnd't have said it better

They will have to re-steal this country every couple of years. I hope enough others won't bail, and hand it to them on a silver platter.

[autorank]

77. No Way, No Way, No F'ing Way. I will not leave!!!!!!!!

Screw the bastards. They're not chasing me off. I've been here my whole life, I have friends, family, and a great career here. I love this country as a process (although the current product leaves much to be desired).

I respect people looking at choices but if they chase enough of us off, they win. F them!

Here is what * has to look forward to:
* Iraq in flames indefinitely
* An economic situation that will force him to raise taxes (his father had to do this and the real powers that be will put the arm on him)
* Insane Clown Posse legislation from congress that will shock and awe the nation (to wit, Brownback's exile of American's who receive stem cell treatment overseas -- believe me this crosses party lines).
* Little surprises from the government from disgruntled employees. There was a reason nobody took on J. Edgar Hoover, he had the files and pictures. Hubris is defined as screwing the Mandarins.

There is much much more to indicate that * will have a rocky ride.

Don't leave now, the fun is just starting and, from the ashes, will be reborn a much better society.

[steely]

88. I'm with you.

eom

[NCN007]

94. figures

that a raiders fan would be one of the few who'd rather fight the bastards than run away...Oakland or LA?

[autorank]

96. Both, I grew up with Daryl Lamonica on my milk cartons

...lived in Fresno and Santa Cruz. I always thought they were America's team and, guess what, I'm right! Big '70's era fan. Favorite moment on the field -- every moment. Favorite off (aside from the partying) was when the Steelers coach said the Raiders were the "criminal element of the NFL." George Atkinson, safety and former felon, sued the Steelers coach for slander in Oakland...and LOST. The truth is the truth.

F the bastards. I'm with you. We will unite under the banner of

RAIDERS NATION Just win baby

(seriously, how many Raiders do you think voter for * and survived)

[LynnTheDem]

4. One more year, God willing, and hubby and I are back to Canada

for GOOD. (I have Cdn citizenship)

We are SO SICK of the US State Media and the fascism in this country.

One more year...just one more year...grit the teeth, we can do it, just one more year!

[TexasChick]

11. LynnTheDem, you're lucky! Will you take me along? LOL! n/t

[LynnTheDem]

12. I sure have been asked that a lot lately...

LOL!

[Dem2theMax]

17. Well, we MUST be related. I mean, look at my name.

"DEM" :)

So, ah, hi there relative. Wanna take me too? ;)

I'm flat broke. If I had any money, OH CANADA, here I'd come.

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. If your ballots don't count, and your money don't matter

Vote with your feet.

[Chimpanzee]

5. I refuse to be a refugee

I intend to stay and fight them.

[maddogesq]

19. You don't have to live like a refugee.

Well, at least if you are only 25 miles from the border, like I am.

Trust me, I have talked about going since Raygun was in office. We will never have national health care here, so I think about it often. Besides, Toronto RAWKS!

[kwyjibo]

25. (don't have to liiiiive like a refu-jaaaaayy)

I was really expecting Tom Petty lyrics..

[Prodemsouth]

6. Hey what about us Yanks on the east side? I want to go! Iwant to go!

Yes I really want to go BAD!

[Malva Zebrina]

7. I would love to move to Canada

I simply love it there and all the people I have ever met while travelling there. I have been there many many times as it is not far from my home.

I am too old to qualify, and no money for health care should I need it while living in Canada. I need to stay around where Medicare, for all it is worth now, will be my insurance.

I will still travel there and hope to be as welcomed as I have been over the period of twenty years. Canadiens are the most friendly , relaxed people I have ever met in all my travels. :toast:

[LynnTheDem]

15. If you live in Canada you don't need money for healthcare.

:)

[Malva Zebrina]

23. but if you are over a certain age you do not qualify -

otherwise you would have an enormous influx of seniors into
Canada wanting health care it offers to it's citizens. They would not be contributing economically much to the community either as most probably will not be working, or do not have certain skills.

[Sugarbleus]

27. Yep, that is what I read last spring on the Canadian immigration

website. :(

I cannot go unless I were to sneak into the land or have a "sponsor".

I could,however, send my adult children...:cry:

Matter of fact, most of other countries immigration sites said much the same thing...

[indigolady]

82. what age?

[The Zanti Regent]

8. It's time to secede from Jesusland and join Canada

That map looks better every day!

[IndianaGreen]

20. It is better to have an entire state secede and join Canada

Let Jesusland go the way of the Taliban's Afghanistan.

[wildeyed]

9. It is certainly an option I am keeping in mind.

I feel unwanted here, right now. Only they still want my taxes and productivity.

I have always admired immigrants. It take allot of grit to pull up stakes and move to a new country. Maybe I should be one.

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. When I'm calling Yoooooooooooou. Will you answer toooooooo.

I'm there. Do they have good soccer in Canada?

[Sugarbleus]

29. LOL--->"When I'm calling you...." n/t

[indigolady]

83. there's that "LOL" again. What does LOL mean?

[The Backlash Cometh]

108. Laughing out loud.

And ROTFL is rolling on the floor laughing.

[CAN_for_Kerry]

60. soccer in canada

Yes, they have soccer in Canada, no worries there, there is tons of it everywhere.

[The Backlash Cometh]

79. Thank God.

[TedsGarage]

16. Canada would be no culture shock for me

I grew up in Michigan. We played hockey in the backyard and on the river, we watched the CBC on our cable systems, we were always finding Canadian coins in our change, we didn't have the death penalty, Windsor was just a suburb of Detroit, we loooved Rush, and yes, we already have Tim Horton's.

[fujiyama]

114. I live in Michigan

But I'm unsure as to which Rush you are speaking of.

[kostya]

18. We, too, are considering a move to the North, but still a lot of

research to do. Can't quite afford to retire yet, so employment possiblities (I'm a software engineer and my wife is an artist) need to be explored. Hate to leave behind Oregon, though, it's ideal in terms of climate and elbow room (for now anyway) IMHO.

I'm wondering what the odds of being accepted are relative to your immigration "score"? If you're over the threshold, and all other factors being "average" are you a shoo-in eventually, or do they prioritize above the score threshold?

How's the mapping of SS benefits to their national retirement plan? I know SS is exchangeable into the Canadian system, but I wonder how the level of benefits compare?

How are the schools funded there? Many more questions...

- K

:dunce:

[Spazito]

21. I can answer the school question...

The public schools are funded by provincial taxes, the public colleges and universities by the federal government as well as tuition fees, bursaries, etc. There are differences in each province re funding for private schools. Alberta, for example, funds Catholic schools out of public funds as does Quebec, I believe.

Re the benefits, if you are wanting to know how our Canadian Pension Plan equates to your SS, here is a link to CPP site:

http://www.sdc.gc.ca/en/isp/cpp/cpptoc.shtml

[daleo]

31. Universities and colleges are funded by the provinces (and tuition)

The federal government provides plenty of research support, and financial assistance to students but the actual post-secondary institutions are under provincial jurisdiction. I used to work in the Ontario Ministry of Colleges and Universities, and now work at the University of Alberta so I am a bit of a nerd on this subject.:)

[Spazito]

32. It is under provincial jurisdiction but provincial governments get

federal grants toward post-secondary education so it is fair to say that post-secondary institutions are federally funded as opposed to public elementary and secondary schools which are funded solely via provincial taxation. Unfortunately the grants are not locked in for use only in post-secondary education so some provinces do not apply their grants in that sector.

[daleo]

33. Yes this is another indirect form of federal funding

There used to be a block grant for education and welfare that the federal government gave - when I was in the Ontario government we always claimed it was being eroded by inflation, etc. - part of that was talk was just the usual federal-provincial squabbling. Also, some of the money that is given out as equalization payments to "have-not" provinces probably ends up in university budgets.

But overall, I would still say the majority of post-secondary funding is provincial (the U of A gets about 375 million from the province and 90 million from other government sources, for example). In Alberta's case, it could afford to spend a lot more, too.

http://www.uofaweb.ualberta.ca/strategic/nav03.cfm?nav03=17568&nav02=17560&nav01=17123

But, as is often the case, when one looks at the details there is substantial overlap between the levels of government.

On edit - Any Americans that are looking into moving to Canada might as well get used to these federal-provincial jurisdictional debates - it is what a large part of our political discourse comes down to.

[Pachamama]

35. I plan on living there and raising the Pachababies, so I'm all ears...

...teach away to this yankee...I'm happy to learn how it all works there and the jingo and "provincial jurisdiction debates"... :hi:

[Spazito]

36. LOL and very true re the jurisdictional debates, it is good advice

*

[Pachamama]

34. We are looking at property in BC right now...I've actually wondered about

the issue related to the schools question since I have two young children....Here in the US the public schools are financed/funded primarily by property taxes....I've wondered what the rules are if one owns property there and lives can my kids go to school there? I've contacted an immigration lawyer to atleast start doing my homework on future options...I still have lots of family in Europe and I speak two other languages fluently, but moving to Canada would be a whole lot easier and less cultural changes for the kids...we also have family in the NW, so visits would be easier....I've always loved Canada...I have lots of friends there and we go visit atleast twice a year...in fact we are going at Christmas skiing for 2 weeks...

Hopefully the Canadians will welcome us yankees....never seen anything but kindness and hospitality...hopefully that won't change when we start coming in droves...the * political refugees....

:hi:

[IndianaGreen]

22. Let us not make the same mistake the Germans Jews made in the 1930s

They never thought that Hitler would resort to exterminating them, so many stayed in Germany. Even as late as 1936, the Nazis appeared to mellow a bit (mostly due to the Olympics). By the time synagogues were burned on Krystallnacht, on November 9, 1938, it was very difficult for Jews to emigrate. It was just too late!

[Frederic Bastiat]

24. yup I got out in 2002

And I'm damn glad I did especially after the elections.

[Sugarbleus]

28. You got out? How is life for you now?? eom

[Frederic Bastiat]

45. Great. I love it.

I couldn't have picked a better society in which to live in. My wife is Canadian so that pretty much reduced the application process by half.

My kid brother (19 yrs old) is now studying at McGill and is also planning to apply for Canadian residency, hopefully he gets it before the draft.

[Califooyah Operative]

40. its the easy way out. they better have me on the run for me to leave

*note, ment to be a reply on the main thread.

[TankLV]

64. So far, the US is right on schedule, following the NAZI script almost to

the letter and calandar date.

Guess we have a couple more years left to go before "Krystalnacht".

sigh.

[nine23]

51. kostya

Can't help you much with those SS particulars, but I can say this: you're a software engineer? Check out Victoria, BC.

A smallish (pop. 318.000) city, BC's provincial capital on the southern tip of Vancouver Island, a gorgeous little historical town with a burgeoning software/tech industry. Microsoft employees from Seattle (yep, those of the stock option variety) have been quietly moving there for years.

Why give up a career at Microsoft? Because for some people, bringing up kids in such a beautiful, crime-free, West Coast lefty environment is more important than bucks. The software/tech branch offices opening up have NO problems with recruitment whatsoever, one of the reasons they're settling there. Folks have been known to get on the high-speed cat/ferry outa' Seattle (one hour trip) in the morning, nail the job interview in the afternoon, then phone the spouse by 4pm to say "get packing".

And none of this has anything to do with the current "troubles" in the US, just a wish for a better life.

Your wife's an artist? It's where artists go to retire! A friend of mine, a commercial artist from NYC now in his early 60's (went to art school with Warhol, worked the Madison Avenue rat race), escaped back in the mid-80's, and never looked back. Hasn't been back to the states in a decade.

During my big career change in the late 90's, I went to school there for two years, but had to move back here to Vancouver. Simply loved it. I'd move back/retire there in an instant, but my partner and I already have an agenda (she's French; we have a little flat in the Pyrenees).

Check it out. If you're serious, and I read your "needs" correctly, this is the place.

By the way, if you jones for home, you can SEE the Olympic Peninsula across Juan De Fuca straight from your doorstep if you're on the water.

Cheers.

[d_b]

26. It's so damn tempting

[Barkley]

37. May be some people in Blue states should move to the Red states

I know that I'll get flamed for this one.

But it makes more sense than moving to Canada.

You have less power to change what America does to the rest of the world living in Canada.

I live CA but work in Ohio in the summer months. I'm going to register
to vote in Ohio (absentee) from my parents home in 2006 and 2008.

It may sound corny, but last summer I visited my high school in Cincinnati Ohio. I told the principle that growing up in 1970s I don't recall Cincinnati being so conservative.

I asked her what happened!?!?!

She said that part of the problem is that people from other places don't come here with new ideas, so people tend to do the same thing over and over.

[PlanetBev]

38. Anybody know if 54 is too old?

I am a commercial property manager and have a B.A.

[Carolab]

43. You lose points for being older

There is a point system on the Canadian immigration site. You can go there and "test" yourself.

I would have gotten the required 67 points if I weren't 56!

By the way, I am in real estate and have a B.A.

[kostya]

58. Learn French fluently and you should regain those points. Take a

crash course, it will be worth it and find a group of francophones to practice with daily. There are good immersion programs around, too. - K

[oblivious]

39. This is music to my Canadian ears.

The finest America has to offer looking north. And anti-war liberals, all.

Come on up.

[Minstrel Boy]

54. That's how I'm feeling, too.

Americans emigres of conscience, and those fleeing oppression, have helped make Canada Canada.

[SammyWinstonJack]

80. And those of us who can't leave or chose not to leave

are left here to fight the madness. Oh well. :shrug: As long as Canada gets "The finest America has to offer".........:eyes:

[Piperay]

41. Sounds Good

THANKS!

[mulethree]

42. grass is greener - when it's not frozen solid!

or does he mean sticky skunky hydroponic grass?

[ChicanoPwr]

44. Yes it does sound temping

being in a country where there is no worry about the FBI (soon to be called the Secret Police)coming in the mid of the night to detain you because of Bush's MAN-date to "purge liberal Dems" or anybody "disloyal" to him. So how does that national anthem go again...j/k

[Atlant]

47. The official lyrics....

>So how does that national anthem go again...

O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!

From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

[arwalden]

46. How Does Canada Keep The RW Christians Out Of THEIR Political System?

... and why can't we do that here? And how long before our own RW Christians start to target Canada as being in need of some Christian Nation Building?

[Atlant]

48. Canadians, like most civilized peoples of the world, think for themselves.

This distinguishes them from 'Murcans, who are simply told what to think.

Atlant

[tanyev]

50. Notice that most of our rabid RW whackos

live in the South (as do I). Maybe the heat fosters the insanity.

[stealyourface]

86. 'crazy from the heat'

i have a theory about that. historically, the northern states all have high voter-turnout. conversely, low in the southern states. i also think it's true that the closer your country is to the equator, the more likely there'll be violence and political unrest.

in response to someone else's statement about the snow. Ontario isnt' really any different than any NE state or the mid-west Blue states. and Victoria and Vancouver have unique climates. it rarely snows in the city and doesnt' stick when it does.

one thing that might surprise people is the cost of auto insurance. i'm not sure if it's diff. for each province (or age groups), but if your in your 20's it is not worth owning a car. so then that might be a good thing as well because most cities have public transportation.

[Minstrel Boy]

56. We're made very uncomfortable by mixing religion and politics.

Part of that may be on account of our historical compromise between the Protestant English and the Roman Catholic French. And that's been extended to other faiths as we've become a multicultural society. (It's kind of a cliche, but true: the US is a melting pot, and Canada a mosaic. So here, there is no chance of a dominant faith arising.)

Faith, or the lack of it, is a private matter in Canada. Secularism isn't a bad word. It's the best way we've found to make accomodation with each other.

[nine23]

61. SECULARISM with a capital S

It's just not in our political culture to LET 'EM IN. That's not to say we don't have conservatives - of course we do...they're just not RW Christian wackos, or if they are, we insist they keep it to themselves.

Here's what the public response would be like if a conservative Christian basket case hit the campaign trail and SERIOUSLY tried to bring hardcore fundy "values" into the mix:

Public response,

Campaign week one: "Aw, isn't that special. He sure does like his religion, doesn't he?"

Campaign week two: "Gee, he REALLY likes that 'ol time religion."

Campaign week three: "What's with this guy? He's not dealing with the issues, and he seems obsessed with hating everybody and everything in sight."

Campaign week four: "Nice try, freak. Get outa' here." (Entire campaign and political career goes crashing down in flames; removed to the dustbin of history)


I don't know how else to put it - it just can't happen here.



RE: "how long before our own RW Christians start to target Canada as being in need of some Christian Nation Building?"

Put it this way: You guys are currently "looking inward" and having a good hard look at yourselves and where you stand at home and in the world - and so are we. ONLY WE LIKE WHAT WE SEE.

It'll never happen.

[tanyev]

90. "It'll never happen."

I hope for your sake you are right. However, I myself would have said the same thing about the US a decade or two ago.

[Frederic Bastiat]

99. It.Will.Never.Happen

And even if it did, the 25% of the population that lives in Quebec will have nothing to do with it. They despise the church here so much so that all the nasty curse words have to do with the church. French Canadians know what its like when the church and state collude.

[mainer]

49. global warming may actually make it livable

[hyphenate]

52. My parents were/are both born in Canada

and I still have many relatives there. I spent every summer of my life from 1-15 at my grandfather's farm in Cape Breton. I spent a lot of time in Toronto from 1999 to 2003. I'd be welcomed by relatives if I decided to go, from Newfoundland, to Nova Scotia, to Ontario. If things don't get any better, it's an option. I almost got my dual citizenship, but found out that the program expired in August. Perhaps with the new need, they will start it up again.

[Frederic Bastiat]

62. You should apply for permanent residence

Your parents being Canadian can "sponsor" you for permanent residency (you can do everything but vote or get a Canadian passport). The plus side is that neither of you need to be in Canada to make this happen.

It doesn't hurt to have a backup plan.

[hyphenate]

74. Both parents became naturalized Americans

many years ago. My mom didn't become naturalized until after I was around, so that's what I was basing the dual citizenship on. Unfortunately, I can't get them to "sponsor" me, and my Dad died 20 years ago.

On the other hand, having a lot of relatives does add a lot of points to the point scoring system, which will help a lot.

[Boswells_Johnson]

70. You should really

come to Halifax!

It's a small-ish city (roughly 320 000), is the "smartest" city in the country (6 degree-granting institutions), and has strong familial and historical ties to the "Boston States":)

[hyphenate]

73. One of my cousins is in Halifax

And I've been there a few times. It's a nice place. An actor I know has a place there as well--he's been busy in the past in the theatre area in Halifax. His name is Nigel Bennett.

My cousin works for the province, I think as a social worker.

I come from a long line of MacDonalds from Cape Breton.

[Just Me]

53. All I need is either the money, a job or a Canadian hubby.

I hope to save up the financing necessary to relocate before my son turns 18.

[youspeakmylanguage]

55. Please be wary...

...of unscrupulous immigration lawyers. I have a feeling a lot
of progressives attempting to emigrate are going to be burned
over the next four years.

[dkofos]

59. Can't decide between Canada or New Zealand

[Almost_there]

63. So, people are just running away? Pathetic.

OK, I am virtually asking, nee, begging to be flamed, since I don't have time to write a diatribe on simply tucking your tail between your legs and running to our Neighbors to the North. I love Canada, but, I am a Citizen of the United States, I was born here, I live here, I don't plan on being a citizen of any other country ever.

The jist I am getting here is "when the going gets tough... run!" Nice, really nice. Anyone that thinks Canada has no problems, no issues, their health care is perfect (no lines for surgery at all! As soon as you come into the US to get the surgery done and have the Canadian gov't pay for the "emergency" surgery, and yes, I know someone personally who needed arthroscopic knee surgery and went to Detroit to get it, since the wait was 18 (eighteen) months), all of the people hate Americans, they are all progressives, they all love eachother (referendum on PQ seceeding anyone?), is simply ridiculous. It is like saying that this election was won totally by right wing nuts. Give me a break. I am so sick of people crying, moping, and not willing to do a damn thing. Well, what the hell good will it do if 1,000,000 Americans move to Canada, moving the US solidly to the right in the next election, and then, you can't vote yet in Canada, and maybe the next gov't will be right leaning, and then, you've really gone and f'd this whole thing up.

I am just saddened to see so many people even thinking about just jumping ship because Bush is in office. I thought this was a progressive site for forward thinking people, not quitters. Damn, I'm sick of this. Stay and fight, or get the hell out, whatever. If you go, just know you're not helping a single damn thing. I haven't been able to find the stats on how many US citizens can move to Canada each year, but, for April 2004 - April 2005, the 65,000 limit has been hit for Canadians emigrating to the US, so, what does that mean? Why would Canadians be coming here? Are all 65,000 of them right wing evangelical nuts? I just don't understand what would be so bad to leave the country of your birth, to simply abondon ship, to give up and move. I love a LOT of countries, I've traveled extensively, but, I am still a proud citizen of this country. I don't know, maybe this board isn't for me as someone that loves his country. I don't need to like the politics or politicians, but, I still love this land.

~Almost

[TankLV]

66. At some point is becomes hopeless to stay - just ask the Jews in NAZI

Germany who also believed that way.

Right now, I'd say, stay and fight. I complete agree with you.

But we must be realistic, and be vigilant, for the warning signs, before it is TOO LATE.

Right now, I also see an ever increasing path that replicates the NAZI experience here in the once great USA.

Better be prepared for the worst and hope for the best.

Don't you see the alarming parallels?

[Almost_there]

68. Maybe I'm pathetically optomistic, but..

I see vague similarities to Nazi Germany, but, there are also vast differences. We are not, nor do I ever think we will have public book burnings, forced by the Gov't, death squads of SS, killing Jews, Homosexuals, Gypsies, whatever, I don't think we will ever engage in a truly "expansionist" war, while it could be argued that we are setting up a puppet regime in Iraq, our intention is to at least set up free elections and have them be subservient, not to take them over for "elbow room". We did invade a sovereign nation, but, the war in Iraq has at least a facade of a "good war", whereas Germany was just looking to invade and take over Europe, Eurasia, and then the world.

I also think that freedom in this country IS worth fighting for, it is worth working here to get the red states colored blue again. I'm just not willing to run to Canada or anywhere because of Iraq or our misguided leadership, it isn't worth abandoning my home.

~Almost

[mmonk]

72. We don't burn books yet,

so far, just music CD's. Some might call the empire of bases with friendly installed governments expansionist while others might not.

[indigolady]

84. what about all those history guidebooks for parents that LynnCheney

had destroyed because they mentioned "standards" that included more history than she was comfortable with?

[Minstrel Boy]

78. You can't be serious

"our intention is to at least set up free elections"

You really believe that?

And of course Iraq is not occupied for lebensraum, but for the bounty of its resources and geostrategic value. Hitler conquered territory for those reasons, too.

"the war in Iraq has at least a facade of a 'good war'"

So did Germany's invasion of Poland. On the eve of the war, a cross-border attack by Poles was faked. German prisoners dressed in Polish uniforms were shot and their bodies displayed as "proof" of the danger Poland posed to Germany. To the "good" German, WWII "at least had the facade of a 'good war.'"

America needs fewer such "good" Americans.

[Frederic Bastiat]

69. Canada ain't perfect

But i'd pick it over America any day.

Life is too short.

[conflictgirl]

87. For me, it's not about tucking tail and running

I totally understand the desire to stay and fight. But for me the fact that I have children puts things in a bit of a different light. I can't risk being hauled off to jail or thrown into Gitmo because they are dependent on me. I already have F*B*I monitoring my blog (I'm certain of this, not just tinfoil-hatting it). If they reinstate the draft and expand it to age 34 and both genders, my husband and I are both in that category - and our children are all boys, so if the war went on as long as Vietnam, one of my sons would be of draftable age then. I live in a moderately safe blue-collar neighborhood in a county & state that went for Kerry, and my car is still being repeatedly vandalized. I just have a K/E and Amnesty Int'l stickers on it, nothing blatantly anti-Bush. Add to that HJ RES 25, still held up in committee in Congress (look it up at thomas.loc.gov), and the man who was out of the military completely for 13 years (not even in reserves) who got deployment orders to Iraq, and the possibility that this election was stolen too, and I am seeing some scary signs. Three other people's lives depend on my choices, and because of that, I would rather move out of this country rather than waiting around for the next Kristallnacht. I always liked the idea of being an expat anyway, so that's not a bad thing to me. As we save money for the move, we'll be watching to see if things improve in the 2nd administration with a new Cabinet, but I'm not optimistic.

[Piperay]

104. I had decided I was leaving even if Kerry won

because the 'values' in this country suck so bad. I am really tired of being of no worth except for what I consume, I am tired of the incivility here and the disregard for a clean environment in favor of greed. I also have some personal reasons having to do with family for leaving. I am still going to remain a citizen and vote even when I no longer reside here but I think it is too late for this country. My grandparents left the place of their birth when their country was no longer worth living in and they went to Canada and lived there before eventually coming to the US. I have relatives in Canada so I consider moving there as almost like returning home.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

105. Eighteen months' wait for knee surgery?

Doesn't sound so bad when people without insurance here have to wait forever.

[NurseLefty]

111. Reasons I am moving

1. * re-elected, in spite of his laundry list of crimes
2. Substantial republican majorities in House and Senate
3. As a result of 1 and 2, * will go unpunished/unimpeached, republicans will rubber stamp their agenda through, and will confirm Supreme and other justices who will warp our judiciary beyond my lifetime
4. Redistricting and other efforts are helping more republicans get elected at state levels
5. Democratic leadership is NON-EXISTENT in the wake of the election catastrophe, the Dems are so factioned that I doubt we can reunite again (sorry)
6. 1,2,3, and 4 will continue to happen with the support of the wealthy, corporate America, sympathetic corporate media, and the fundamentalists who are their grassroots footsoldiers.
7. It will take something beyond comprehension to educate the Wal-Mart Nation. As long as people shut themselves off from the world, stay in their insular consumer culture, they will remain sheep for *
8. Healthcare will implode in the US in the next few years
9. I want to be in a progressive, truly functioning democracy in my lifetime
10. I want to give my skills and efforts to a society that values what I do
11. I want my tax dollars to benefit my society and not a war machine
12. I want to live with TRUE freedom and in a JUST society

I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

[bobthedrummer]

65. Thanks anyway!

Thanks for letting US know about integrity.

[PlanetBev]

67. Can someone link me up with the site where you can test yourself

to see if I qualify for immigration. I'm well educated, college degree, professional, but I want to see if I'm shit out of luck at age 54.

Oh, forget it, I just found the site!

[DemBones DemBones]

71. Here you go, Bev,

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/

[PlanetBev]

75. Thanks, Bones

Gonna go have me a look.

[DemBones DemBones]

89. Il n'a pas de quoi.

Bonne chance!

:7

[murray hill farm]

76. Living outside the USA

and the age thing! I live in Mexico and collect my social security via direct deposit into my checking account in the USA. I have a pension from the state of michigan...do the same..direct deposit each month. I am still a citizen of the usa..just don't live there. You can live out of the country and still be eligible for medicare..and go back there for treatment that is covered by medicare...not all that much anyway is covered. I have blue cross blue sheild...and get my meds via express scripts in the usa..they are sent to a mail forwarding address in florida..and then sent to me hear in Mexico. I grew up in michigan...so..in the upper penn of mich, we were more Canadian than not up there...and Canada is the most beautiful place...you can do it if you want...there are ways around the USA system of social security and medicare...and you can always just go back into the USA if you do need Medicare covered medical care...and hey....your meds are a lot cheaper in Canada, anyway.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

81. living in Mexico

Mexicopat Where do you live in Mexico? I have been thinking about moving there since 95. I tried to open a Wet and Wild in Cancun but someone beat me to the rights!! Do you know where I can get more info on living in Mexico? I am only 44years so no retirement issues.

[murray hill farm]

100. living in mexico

there are lots of sites available to check out to find info on living in mexico...one that i remember, i think was called mexconnect...but there are lots of them..just run a search. i live on alittle island just off the coast from cancun..called Isla Mujeres...a very peasant place. I think there is also a site in cancun for americans that want to relocate..cannot remember its name, but i am sure if you run a search u will find lots of info and sure..comeon down..really nice here.

[indigolady]

85. I think some of the things we are worried about

is the demise of Medicare, social security, health insurance...things like that.

I love Mexico. . . . but the gov. is more corrupt than the USA. maybe ?

[PlanetBev]

91. Another question about the age restriction

What if someone wanted to retire in Canada? Do t nowjust not let anybody older the 55 in?

[murray hill farm]

101. no govt is more corrupt than the USA

govt corruption here is a myth...sure there always are some bad apples...but no..it is safe and pleasant here...it is different..so at first sight, it may seem a little scary. Like anywhere, if you are not here to break the law, there is not much to worry about..but here you are guilty until proven innocent..so it is important to respect all the laws here...and then..no problems. There are a good number of hoops to jump to live here full time..keeping up your immigrant status, etc....but it is worth the time and effort to do it in order to live here. police with big guns are everywhere..and it is scary at first..but the are mainly kids putting in their time in..and they are polite and friendly..these are the federal police and you will see lots of them everywhere..and in groups..but they are here to protect us u soon realize..it is the criminals they are after...so it soon becomes a symbol of feeling safe to see them. the local police are nice...but basically not crime solvers..ha! Most local crime is just worked out among the folks who are involved..accidents or someone steals your rake or something...and ya work it out one way or another. Guns of any kind are illegal..and it is taken very seriously...very seriously...so, gun crime is basically nonexistant. The most important thing in living in a new country is to understand that u are the alien and to adopt an attitude of gratitude to your new culture..and appreciate that they allow you to share their country and culture with you..and to respect the culture and the laws...and then..all is well. yes..the demise of soc security, etc. is certainly a concern for me too..it is what i live on here..but, ya know..if that happens..you are screwed wherever you live..so might as well live where it is pleasant and peaceful for as long as you are able.

[w4rma]

92. No thanks. (nt)

[NCN007]

93. wow

Anyone who is even considering this should not be on this forum. I'm pretty new here, but my impression was that we are here to support liberal democracy. Kinda hard to do that when you tuck your tail between your legs and run north. Ladies and gentlemen, we lost an election. Our country may be in for some rough times, but its not something we cant weather IF WE WORK THROUGH THEM. We have already allowed the republicans hijack the troops and the flag, now we're gonna give them the land? WTF? Sure, if you go to Canada you will have the luxuary of living in a nice liberal society happily ever after. But you will be abandoning every cause that American liberal democrats stand for. Anyone who actually moves is a coward who lacks the civic principals nessesary to be a member of a democracy. I think someone once said something about summer soldiers and sunshine patriots...

[helpmeget2canada]

95. Newbie....first post.....*S*

First, I had planned to move to Canada for personal reasons (found my real family there) long before Nov. 2nd, so I'm not running away FROM anything, rather I'm moving TOWARD a life situation I choose.

Just wanted to say that I appreciate all the information throughout this forum and the honest, in-your-face comments many of you share, links, etc.

I have a joint child custody issue which is the primary challenge I face with regard to relocating....Montreal is the goal. A far, far cry from Bible Belt country in which I currently find myself.

Nice to see so many Canucks here at this forum....*S*

[autorank]

97. Great post and, forgot to say it, Welcome to DU!

Our rights are not given or allowed, they are inherent and part of who we are. We don't get any guarantees or 'easy classes', we have what we earn. I will not leave Why would anyone leave with the prospect of annoying the crap out of the fundies? There time will come and come soon!

And another thing, some wonderful DUer posted a message about the stupid Sen. Brownback, (R) Jesusland, proposing a bill that would not allow Americans back in the country if they received stem cell treatment overseas. We can't stop this type of proposal but we shouldn't be frightened by it. It is simply one of the many propaganda tools that will piss every thinking person off in the country. Don't forget, the 25% of Americans voting for * are not all fundies. A good portion of them are reflexive corporate Republicans. When they see how f'ing crazy things get and when their freedoms are stepped on in a big way, watch things shift.

[noordinaryspider]

98. Appreciate the link....

I'm not going anywhere myself but I do have kids so I appreciate information that might be of use to me as a parent who is concerned with the safety of my offspring.

[kitty1]

102. The welcome mat is out guys!

As a Canadian, I can only say it would be a great honour to have more American company up here. It would be great to mix a little more. As you're probably aware, we're pretty open minded on a lot of issues. To be honest though, I wish we as a country, had a little more conviction on some issues. We're too afraid to step on the collective toes at times. Political correctness to the extreme. Jean Chretien was a bit too wishy washy and deceptive as a PM. Not sure about our current one. Not enough time to adequately analyze him yet. Anyway, the foods great here, so just give us some time to tidy up first.!

[I_Make_Mistakes]

103. Clarification: I was going to move to Florida

because I have health conditions that don't fair well in cold weather. Canada for those who can take wild weather swings and the cold is great. I was going to move to Florida after the election (hurricanes and all) but now, I am having a hard time committing to a red state. There are not alot of warm weather states that seem decent to live in for a Northeastern blue state liberal. That is why Mexico seems a good option for me.

[PATRICK]

106. Watch Out

Looking for ex-Brave New Worlders to populate the Northwest territories and the Arctic circle(building dikes against either melting icecaps or dynamiting advancing glaciers.)

[Orsino]

107. The line starts here...

My wife and I have been planning the move for a couple of years now. The "election" results have only stepped up our timetable. We've realized that we can *talk* about universal health care and gay marriage for the next twenty years--or until we're locked up for it--or we can go support it *now*, and subsidize the purchase of fewer bombers while we're at it.

The progressive nation I fantasize about will never exist, but the Canadians are hitting some of the the right notes. speaking of notes, any nation cool enough to put Scott Thompson on its money is a place I want to live.

Yeah, we know: by leaving, we're ceding the field to the nasty forces of corporate darkness. Our hats are off to you brave folks who want to continue to fight the good fight, and we wish you luck. As long as we are citizens, we'll keep on voting against the fascists (in case someone decides to start counting votes again), and maybe we'll be in a position to help some of you when the time comes for you to flee.

It'll take a few years, but we are determined to become Canadian. I'll do my best to remind 'em that not all Americans are corrupt and willfully ignorant.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

110. Mexicoxpat Island of the Women

My first visit to Mexico was 1983, college graduation present. I went to Isla Mujeres, Cozumel and Chichen Itza (sp?). My best friend and I went. Cancun was nothing then. We met a Mexican from crap can't remember the capital of the Yucatan. He had been educated (8 yrs. + in the US) with a Master's from Boston College I believe. He told us, his favorite place in Mexico was Islas Mujeres so we went. It was the best snorkeling that I have ever enjoyed.

You are right. The US sure is good for corruption. How many people with money get off for drug addiction, abuse, murder etc. We have been fooled into believing that this country has laws that apply to everyone. We are good in principal not reality. People like me (until a few years ago's) believed in what this country says not how it is.

[fear the donkey]

109. Stay and Fight

how much more satisfying will it be to know that when we get all of those neat little things Canada has - right here in our own home - that we made it possible. They can't take that from us.

Fight the good fight.

[BUSHOUT]

112. CANADA DON'T WANT YANKEES, TRUST ME!!

STAY THE FUCK AWAY, THAT'S THE ATTITUDE OF MANY!

Can you blame them since Bush has been at work?

[blue northern]

113. I'm Canadian.

and I disagree BUSHOUT.
I think there's more collective sympathy here in Canada for progressive minded Americans than you're giving credit.