Would you put up with what is being asked of the Greek people?

[bemildred]

Want to know exactly why public anger in Greece is running at such explosive levels? Then take a look at the austerity measures currently being debated by the Greek parliament.

The BBC reports that as part of the IMF/ EU bailout Greek leaders are proposing the following measures:

* Public sector pay to be frozen till 2014;
* Public sector salary bonuses – equivalent to two months’ extra pay – to be scrapped or capped;
* Public sector allowances to be cut by 20%;
* State pensions to be frozen or cut, with the contribution period up from 37 to 40 years;
* The average retirement age raised from 61 to 63, and early retirement restricted;
* VAT to be increased from 19% to 23%;
* Taxes on fuel, alcohol and tobacco raised to 10%;
* A new one-off tax on profits to be introduced, plus new gambling, property and green taxes.

On their own any one of these measures would probably be enough to prompt significant political disquiet; taken together they represent a catastrophic setback to the financial aspirations of the average Greek.

http://www.citywire.co.uk/personal/-/blogs/money-blog/content.aspx?ID=398084

[Oregone]

1. Yes. Im an American

I like playing Halo on my LCD TV

[still_one]

4. The real question is what would happen if Greece turned it down? /nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

28. Worse most likely

This is in response to a generation of excessive spending and getting out of that hole is going to be painful. If a structured approach is rejected, Greece will find itself effectively unable to participate in international commerce, tossed out of the euro, its national currency will be worthless and the middle and lower classes will hurt much more than under the IMF plan. The rich have already moved into more secure currencies and later locations. Food riots would follow. Governments would fall months, an as a nation it would be a truly failed state.

If this were Africa or South America that would be allowed to happen. Since it Europe and there would be massive refugees, some sort of softer landing will be arranged. Regardless, the Greek people are going to be hurting for some time to come. Upper and some middle class Greeks saw this coming and have moved most of their wealth and their families to other parts of the EU. Some of those left behind will not have that chance if they don't get out soon. Greek property will be cheap for citizens of other nations to buy, expect to see a housing slump that makes the current one in the US look rosy...

[still_one]

2. Their elected parliment voted for it. They didn't have to accept it. If the citizens

of Greece do not agree with that decision, they should vote them out

[bemildred]

3. Or, maybe, throw them out? nt

[still_one]

6. If they have enough support they can dissolve parliment and call for new elections

much easier than we can

[bemildred]

12. We should adopt that.

Anything that makes the government more accountable to the people is a good thing in my view.

[Massacure]

5. What choice do they have?

You simply cannot spend more money than you take in. Not unless you can print money anyway, but that is a different story...

[still_one]

7. What would have happened if they turned it down? Another problem is

that Greece isn't even the worst country in the EU in debt. Will those countries also accept similar terms?

[Massacure]

10. They would have run out of cash.

I read in a post that Greece has loans due in two weeks. I forget the amount due, but it was several billion dollars/euros worth. Sure they could refuse to pay, but then they would be unable to borrow money at a time that their budget deficit is 13% of their GDP. They still would have had to raise taxes or cut spending.

[bemildred]

11. Sure you can, all sorts of people, governments, etc. do it all the time.

The USA has been doing it for decades now. And pretty much everybody prints money now, it has been that way for a long time too. We have a faith based economy. As long a people believe in money, money is good.

[Massacure]

13. Greece doesn't have its own currency, it uses the Euro.

And like I said in my original post, the impacts of printing money is for a different topic.

[bemildred]

14. Some people, apparently, think that was a mistake. nt

[girl gone mad]

22. It was a mistake.

The Eurozone was improperly structured. Greece is suffering in a crisis not of their own making. No, they should not accept the austerity plans.

[Knight Hawk]

17. Cannot do

Greece joined the EU they do not have their own currency,the drachma.They have the euro and cannot print their own euros.They are in a pickle of their own making.The government spends MUCH MORE money than they take in.

[bemildred]

18. Watch it happen. nt

[girl gone mad]

24. No, not of their own making.

We spend much, much more than we take in. Look at this chart (of Greece):



Greece has been cutting government spending, but their exports and private investment has dried up at the same time so the crisis has only worsened, despite already implementing austerity measures. What you are saying is very simplistic and has nothing to do with the fundamentals at play here.

[doc03]

8. I don't know according to our MSM Greece is an example of

socialism gone wild. I have heard 40% of the workforce are public employees and they can retire as early as 42. Wolf Blitzer on CNN was comparing the USA with Greece. According to CNN we are going to go the way of Greece with Obama's socialism and debt. Trying their best to stir the teapot.

[dotymed]

32. Amazing

In 1950 the income tax rate for the wealthiest Americans was 90%, in 1970 it was 75%....Obama has had to piss the wealthy off by raising it to 35%, and most corporations do not pay a penny. So does that mean that from 1939 (91%) until raygun became president, we were a "Socialist" country. Of course now that it is UP(?) to 35% for individuals (the corporations have all the rights of a person except income taxes?) we have become a "Socialist" nation? :wtf:

[Warpy]

9. Unless it also came with a plan to tax the uber rich

and cut the Pentagon budget HELL NO.

I think the Greek people would accept the austerity measures if they were spread upward to the people at the top who have hidden their assets there for decades.

Greece needs a combination of the IRS and GAO to go after those bastards.

[ellenfl]

15. i'm not seeing the problem . . .

items 1-4 only affect state workers.
i don't expect to retire until i'm 65. do you?
ok, vat could be a problem but i don't know THEIR particulars.
aren't our taxes on fuel, alcohol and tobacco higher than 10%?
that last one might be a problem, but again, we don't know their starting point.

personally, i think we should be doing the same thing. we're too immature to police ourselves, what with our national greed ethic.

ellen fl

[Knight Hawk]

19. Seven cardinal sins

Greed is certainly one of them but so is sloth.

[southernyankeebelle]

16. I don't know where you have been lately but some people have taken pay cuts to keep their

jobs. Some people have had the hours cut back. Some people are losing their earned vacation time. You do what you have to do. You do that or you have no job. This is the time families have to start helping each other. I already am helping our son and his family. They aren't going out spending money on stupid stuff. His ex wife moved back in with him. They have the children. She lost her job and food stamps because she moved back in with my son. He makes less than $20,000.00 a year. She is in school and will be graduating next week. Hopefully she will get a job shortly after.

[bemildred]

20. So, compared to the Greeks, you are screwed?

And you are OK with that?

[girl gone mad]

21. No, and in the midst of a recession caused by a drop in private spending..

these types of concessions will only bring more pain.

[smoogatz]

23. Hell yes.

Right now my retirement age as a public sector employee is 65, with very few opportunities to go early.
I get no salary bonuses.
I don't know what a public sector allowance is, so we'll shelve that.
In WI, pension increases are geared to cost of living, so they've basically been flat for ten years.
The contribution period here is 20 years before you can start collecting benefits--37? Really? Or is that the equivalent of Social Security?
23% seems like a pretty steep VAT; do they have income tax, as well?
10% taxes on fuel, booze and smokes is nothing--holy crap.
We pay crazy property taxes here; we pay tax on profits, I don't gamble but if I did I'd have to declare my winnings and wouldn't get to deduct my losses.
What's a green tax?

In all, I'd trade what's left of their welfare state for our "free market" system--I'd be personally better off. Plus, ouzo!

[girl gone mad]

25. The record would not be on your side.

Please find us a single example of a country that has taken the steps you promote here and turned out better for it. Just one!

The neo-liberal propaganda doesn't match the results.

They failed in Africa.

They failed in South America.

They failed in Haiti.

If Greece does not fight it, they will fail there, too.

Lowering the living standards of working people always ends in a precipitous decline into misery, resource deflation and further capital flight.

[smoogatz]

27. My point is

that the Greek "austerity" plan doesn't sound all that austere from where I sit. It sounds to me, in fact, as though their public sector will still be more generous than ours. Which tells you more about us, really, than it does about them.

[DatManFromNawlins]

29. Because spending way more than you take in works so well

They created an untenable situation and now they have to deal with the consequences. It's their fault for ignoring the problem.

[terrapinwelcher]

36. The USA

Is Greece waiting to happen. We spend too much also. Why do I have to cut back when I take in less money, but everything our government does is so essential and needs increased funding? I read where the average government worker makes twice as much in combined pay and benefits as his private sector counterpart does, all skills and education being equal. Something is wrong there if you ask me. I don't agree with the teabaggers on most things, but they are right that this needed to stop a long time ago.

[SpartanDem]

26. I understand why they're angry

and I'd probably bee on the streets with them, no one likes having benefits taken away. But when look at this as objective observer it doesn't change the facts about the country's massive spending and lackadaisical tax collection.

[bread_and_roses]

30. Richest 2% own half all global wealth, but the workers have to give up their wages?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6211250.stm?lsm

The richest 2% of adults in the world own more than half of all household wealth, according to a new study by a United Nations research institute.

The report, from the World Institute for Development Economics Research at the UN University, says that the poorer half of the world's population own barely 1% of global wealth.

But goddess forbid that workers should actually get a half-way decent slice of the pie - oh, no, they are living too fat on the land, getting vacations and not having to work till they drop.

As for the OP question, we accepted it long ago - not only accepted, but, as shown in this thread, embraced it - despite the huge inequality of wealth in this country too. Wages in the US have been flat for I forget how long - a generation, at least. That's why "core inflation" does not take into account the "volatile" "food and energy" sectors - those being the major day-to-expenses for workers: you are not supposed to notice that you pay more for your essentials while your buying power shrinks.

And we're so indoctrinated that we defend the ludicrous notion that workers should be forced to keep at it till they're 65. Even the sainted Dr.Dean, if I remember aright, wanted to raise the retirement age when he was running for President, and was defended here for it - though it would not be Dr. Dean who would be trying to work on a road crew at 60 or stand behind a cosmetics counter in heels all day. To demand that people stay on the job till that age is literally ridiculous, both from a physiological standard and given that we have a huge excess of labor and no jobs for our young people.

Americans already accept that in addition to having to work till they drop, they'll be impoverished by retirement because we have no pension system that provides a decent living for workers and we have the most expensive health care in the "developed" world, even for seniors.

We've already accepted that our taxes should not pay for decent schools, that our children have to go into debt for life to get a higher education, that huge sectors of our population can rot and die in blighted areas while the Banksters party hearty, and that the essential infrastructures we rely on - roads, water systems - can crumble into dust so the rich can have more.

Well, keep defending the screwing of the Greek workers - we're already so far down that road that we'll be lucky if we're not all forced to buy our toothpaste from the Company Store soon - no doubt some here will defend that too, maybe in the hope of getting an extra blanket in the barracks.

Embrace your serfdom, Greeks! Be just like us! It's working so well (for a select few) here!

[ipaint]

31. +1 Thank you. nt

[dotymed]

34. Thank You bread_and_roses

Our workers have actually taken a pay-cut for the last 30+ years. on the other hand, 30 years ago an average CEO "earned" 40x what their average worker earned. Today they "earn" 4000x what an average worker at their company earns. The "free market" is a great system as long as you are at the top. Why is it that Obama and most, all (at least D's) agree that the "trickle down" theory does not work, yet they perpetuate it? Even when they "freeze" COLA's for SS recipients and civil servants, it does not affect the automatic raises that Congress gets. This is a "Majority rules" country?? BULLSHIT! We are serfs, they have destroyed our Unions and our ability to collectively bargain for a living wage. Do that and They will move your job to a starving (more) country. FUCK ALL OF THIS. We must organize and take our government back, along with the wealth that has been stolen from us.

[mbperrin]

37. Yep, wages have been flat since the mid-70s in the US. It's no mistake

that two income earners now make about what one did prior to that - now the companies get two workers for the price of one! AND many of the older children in families work now, too.

Prior to the 70s, companies tended to expand where population was, and that's where jobs were created. Workers had the support of their extended families, like my own - my dad was a mechanic, anyone in the family needs their car repaired, buy the parts, he does it; my uncle was a CPA - everyone gets their taxes done by a real expert for free; my grandfather was a carpenter - need a house addition or repair? Call him and get the materials. Mom needs 4 kids babysat while she shops for groceries on Saturday? Granny will keep those kids - no charge, and in a safe and loving environment.

The the change occurred - want a promotion? Relocate, often hundreds of miles away. Now when you need brakes, don't worry - Midas will do that for ya - for big bucks; need taxes done? No problem - CPAs charge $100 an hour or more; home repair - plumbers get $90 per hour on weekends with a 4 hour minimum, even if it only takes 30 minutes to clear the drain; childcare? Sure - $110 per week per child here. So all those extended family benefits are monetized, but hey, you got the promotion, right? Doin' great, right? And since EVERYBODY is working, who feels like cooking? Nobody, but no worries, there's a restaurant on every corner, right?

But hey, ask for a pension plan, you're greedy! Ask for health benefits - you're a socialist! Ask for time off for time with your kids? Greedy bastard! The company needs you, the boss needs you to work more so he can get out and "network" on the 19th hole with his management buds!

Anyone who thinks this by chance, just go ahead and send me any money you have remaining, because you are too dumb to have money in your possession.

Work hard, die right at retirement and opt for cremation - it's cheap! Now you're being a good Amurikan!

[Uncle Joe]

33. Kicked but too late to recommend.

Thanks for the thread, bemildred.

[Blue_Tires]

35. ttt

[Prometheus Bound]

38. I guess virtually all of us would put up with it if the alternative were no jobs.

Like others have said, what choice would we have?

[provis99]

39. Revolution is always a choice. n/t

[Prometheus Bound]

40. I hate to be negative, but I've always believed the elite take over the revolution too.

They did it in the Philippines and we're seeing the results of it in their election today. Choose one of two elites.