Why are people against unions?

[proud2BlibKansan]

You can thank the labor unions for getting Monday off.

But these days, many Kansans aren't very appreciative of organized labor.

You hear it in the daily stream of ugly comments around the lunch table at work or read it on Internet message boards. Words such as "greedy," "entitled" and "out-of-touch" keep popping up.

The current round of Machinists union negotiations with Hawker Beechcraft and Cessna Aircraft seems especially fraught with criticism. The deep recession and the threat by Hawker Beechcraft to move operations out of Wichita have sharpened the public debate over the value of unions.


Read more: http://www.kansas.com/2010/09/05/1479215/why-are-people-against-unions.html#Comments_Container#ixzz0ylEsLYX8

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[OHdem10]

1. Steady drumbeat of anti-union from Republicans, Republican

Union Busting Presidents.

[Populist_Prole]

9. That's pretty much it

Amongst those I know who are hostile to unions and "labor" in general ( most of them ironically working stiffs ) it seems to stem from the team mentality.

They are either self described conservatives or GOP-ers, and since the anti-labor stance is a large part of the platform of the right, these people, by extension are then anti-labor.

It's not just even the labor issue. I see it on other issues as well. They are for or against something with a veracity that is out of synch with their actual exposure, or knowledge, let alone personal interest of a subject. They hate unions, even if they've never had any exposure to them.

I used to be a center-right GOP voter till about 2 years ago, and listened to talk radio, even Limbaugh, and even then noted how anti-labor he was. He and others tried to make a big show about how he wasn't against _workers_ as such, just unions. Baloney. In all other contexts they favored policy hostile to the working class. Being anti-union was just a way of triangulating. As a practical measure, it made sense to them and the plutocrats: If you want to marginalize the working class, You don't attack workers directly or they'll turn on you. You'll attack the most visible bulwark of the working class. Once they dispose of that, the working class are now pliant serfs.

[Glidescube2]

41. so true

They were very successful of demonizing unions under Ronnie Reagan in the 80s. And he being such a popular prez, the label just stuck.

[customerserviceguy]

2. This was inevitable when the number of people in union households

dropped to less than half of the country. At that point, union workers became the 'haves', while non-union workers and their families became the 'have nots'.

A lot of 'have nots' have suffered terribly in this last recession. To those who have had hours cut back, wages cut back, and even jobs eliminated, seeing a union threaten a strike for more money looks arrogant.

I'm a member of a union, but have only been one for about the last year and a half. When I see how terribly hard it is to deal with co-workers who are rude to customers, and inconsiderate to fellow workers, I wonder if it is still a great thing, even though it's working for me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. Do you understand WHY the number of people in union households has dropped?

The haves are not union members, they are the Wall Street bankers, the politicians and the corporatists.

[customerserviceguy]

14. It was clever of Raygun

to cast the unions as villains, but it's been done. Once you got less than half of the American people depending on a union household, the unions became the fortunate ones, along with all the banksters, etc.

I'm sorry, but I don't see anything that could possibly reverse this trend. As manufacturing shrinks in this country, the only union members are going to be those on the public payroll, and we know what the general public thinks of those who derive their wages from other people's taxes.

[Crazy Dave]

8. The unions need to take a good like at themselves.

Not union workers but the unions and their leadership. The unions have changed over the years and that's what many don't realize since so many are either pro-union or against them and that's the only mentality they use. If they are told by their union and their political leaders that unions are good then they obey and agree with what they're told...until their factory gets shut down and they're no longer a dues paying member. Then they get told by the union to "fuck off".

The unions were once there for the workers benefit but now it's for a few select leaders and the highest priority is political access and influence.

[customerserviceguy]

15. It was the excesses of union leaders

in the decades before Raygun that allowed him to demonize unions. When the Teamsters went in bed with Richard Nixon, the decline of unions was inevitable.

[southmost]

46. bingo!

for example local union around here is headed up by the son of a certain popular anti-union 2008 repug presidential candidate ... their are foxes in the union henhouse also

[depakid]

4. Resentment of people that have better wages and benefits than they do

Frankly, I wish them and theirs everything that they want and deserve from their ignorance and ill founded beliefs.

Impoverishment, poor health and a miserable, insecure old age.

[stray cat]

5. Are union leaders corporate leaders?

or do they get a waver? I'm all for unions - I'm not in favor of stupidity or getting rich at the top

[iamjoy]

6. A Few Reasons

Well, if some one is not Union, they may see Union workers making more money than they do, with better benefits and complaining about it.

The idea of rewarding seniority rather than work goes against the grain for some people,

And lets look at Union presidents and leaders, and the compensation they get.

The first is jealousy, an understandable although not admirable human reaction. I believe there is some legitimacy to the last two.

But really, it is about the message. Big business hates organized labor because organized labor forces changes that are bad for business. You know, stuff like adequate pay, good benefits, safe working conditions, etc really cut into the bonuses for senior management. So rather than have people take a critical look at executive compensation, it's easier to get people angry at the unions.

This really sums up things for me: "CEOs make $16 million and we make $50,000 — and we're getting crucified?" said union member Eddie Wheelock.

[Recursion]

24. "rewarding seniority rather than work"

That's definitely something that's always bothered me. And, with that, a resistance to any kind of change to "the way we do things". And a resistance to expanding the workforce -- higher wages through false scarcity is great for the people in the union, not so great for people who are looking to get in (ie, scabs gotta eat too).

[iamjoy]

32. Well, I Understand The Intent of It

I mean, lets face it, promotions aren't always fair. In non-Union companies it isn't always about who is most qualified. Sometimes it is who is best at shmoozing with management. However, it at least allows the appearance of hard work and merit being the reason for promotions and pay raises.

But, while Unions are flawed, they are not the evil destroyers of industry the corporatists would have us believe.

[Sherman A1]

37. Union Member for 37 years

and it works like this.

Unions are flawed - Yes, but name one man made thing that is not so......You can cite a litany of problems with Unions, their leadership, the seniority system, what is perceived as excessive demands, etc.

But, the real answer comes down to one thing and one thing only.

If Companies treated their workers properly, with respect and a reasonable share of the profits of their work (and continuously increasing productivity) in wages and benefits, the Unions would not exist nor ever would have.

Companies do not choose to do so, therefore the only real answer is.............

[Bitwit1234]

7. Because the history of America is not taught in schools any more

they only history taught is how the republicans did every thing. How they made this country tip top with out the help of the Unions. Who fought for just about every advantage the worker has today. If not for the Unions what would we have. If you ask a young person they can't tell you doodly squat. They don't know.

[hlthe2b]

10. I had a good discussion with a fairly "liberal" libertarian recently

on this score. He was in agreement about the need to rethink our trade policies and reenact some tariffs in order to protect jobs and pay in this country. He's also very socially liberal. But when we inched the discussion towards need for a reinvigoration of unions, that's where we parted ways.

As a highly trained and educated professional, it seems that his real beef is the high salaries the unions get for their employees, who in his mind have not earned it--not sweated through all the years of education and training. In his mind, his efforts are diminished when their salaries start to approach his own.

I really hadn't ever thought of it this way. While similarly highly educated, I don't agree with him, but that is his viewpoint and one that is likely widely held by others.

[Crazy Dave]

13. Back before the unions changed...

...you'd be surprised how much closer the factory manager's and union bosses salary were to the guy loading and unloading trucks 30 years ago. But little by little the people at the top got greedy and wanted more for themselves. Pay the little guy less and pay us (management) more because we're so smart and we've earned it. We should live in better neighborhoods and our kids should go to different schools, etc.

So now...

These days an average UAW worker makes 40% - 50% less than someone in his position did 25 years ago but a current factory manager or union boss makes six figures.

[Warren Stupidity]

19. It might be widely held among highly paid non-union workers

but most workers are non-union and not at all highly paid. So this explanation does not hold for them.

[electricD]

23. tell your "liberal" libertarian friend

that, not only does a certain percentage of our "high" salary go for training apprentices, it also goes for ANY training that a journeyman may want or need. Not only can we take brush up courses, we can also take classes that may help us learn a new technology.

It sounds like the beef he has with union members is that he has an education directed at a "business/office" degree where he works with his "mind" and or money, and us lowly union factory/construction workers work with our hands where we are "trained" not to think just, do.

Not to mention, the majority of people that work in offices think that those of us that work with our hands are of the simple minded type. But, ask them to install a light fixture, ceiling fan, hell, even a motor control system, they turn out to be just as "simple minded" as we are. They MAY be able to install it but, correctly, safely, or quality of installation? Doubtful. The same thing goes for us. Ask us to put together a spread sheet or balance a company's budget, we may could get something together but, correctly? Doubtful.

I chose my career on the basis of a challenge, not only do I work with my mind, I work with my hands and every day that goes by I feel like I've accomplished something or learned something.

Fraternally
electricD
IBEW L.U. 474
Memphis, TN

[hlthe2b]

26. Preaching to the choir here...

My father never finished college, but was union his whole life and a better mechanical engineer than most who were formally trained at the best universities.

That said, my "friend" (I don't know him well) is an engineer-- not management-- but dually trained in electrical and computer engineering, multiple master's degrees--that kind of thing. :shrug:

[electricD]

28. engineer, eh?

In 23 years of being in the electrical industry, I've come across only ONE electrical engineer that earns every bit of respect I give him. Most engineers, that me and my work associates, have come across have not the first clue about correct installation much less, how it works when it's installed. We've actually had questions for said engineers about how, why and what and the best response we've gotten from them is, "you're the guys that install it, make it work."

This is one of the main reasons I have little to no respect for the sheepskin diplomas that most of them wave around like a flag, thinking that they're better than the field worker.

To the one engineer that I respect totally, I am honored to work with/for him as much as he respects my input on anything he needs. To bad he is planning on retiring in less than a year.

[hlthe2b]

29. heh heh...

My father used to speak that way about the "sheep-skinned" mechanical engineers that he worked with. ;)

[Recursion]

40. EE here

I sometimes say my only job is to get sued if the electricians screw up too badly.

Though the crew chief says if you average out my "wrong" and his "wrong" we usually blunder into "right".

[Populist_Prole]

34. Spot on. I've seen and heard it so many times

That "I have a degree" mantra is really just class snobbishness under a thin wrap of meritocracy BS. Since many of that type have no knowledge, much less exposure, of any type of hands-on type work that also requires skill and critical thinking, it is below their radars...another dimension. They simply can't see where your skills count for anything...and I do mean SKILLS, learned knowledge and not just simple repetition. Other than for doctors/surgeons, they really do seem to think it's a matter of working with one's mind or one's hands.

[VioletLake]

11. Anti-Union talking points became conventional wisdom. nt

[Raster]

21. Anti-union talking points became added to the Amerimeme taxonomy.

The goal is to weaken worker's rights, wages and recourse to maltreatment. And it's working, unfortunately. All to often the average worker participates in union bashing, not realizing that unions are the main reason we have: (1) 40 hour work weeks; (2) weekends (or equivalent) time off; and (3) paid vacations. The list of benefits to the American worker courtesy of unions and unionized labor continues, but the corporations try and shut down anything that will benefit workers.

[VioletLake]

25. Thanks, Raster,

for elaborating.

[Raster]

27. My pleasure. Even though my job is not unionized, my company adheres to union wage standards.

I also have a personal stake in the good that unions do. Years ago my Mother-bless her heart, was basically harassed to the point of almost quitting a 30-year career with the Bell System when the telecommunications union came to her aid. They investigated and found the supervisor was indeed harassing my Mother, breaking and the law and filed a grievance. The supervisor was terminated and Bell issued an apology and demanded that all their front-line supervisors attend non-harassment training.

Yes, there are union "horror stories," most of them highly exaggerated. Unions have been the forefront of worker's rights in the United States for years. Unions have been responsible for ending child labor and mandating that companies provide safe working conditions for employees. With the demise of the American labor unions, we are witnessing the diminishing of worker's rights. With the demise of American labor unions we are witnessing the best friend to the American worker shunted aside to maximize shareholder profits, which I might add usually come directly at the expense of the workers. Unfortunately, that's the American way.

[VioletLake]

30. I know a few tow truck drivers who would benefit from a union.

It hasn't been easy convincing them that they're not fated to work hazardous 12-hour days for inadequate pay while being addressed as "asshole" by their employer.

[Raster]

31. The vast majority of American workers would benefit from some type of unionization:

collective bargaining for better wages, working conditions, etc. However, the corporate overlords have spent many dollars and many hours convincing the American worker otherwise.

And make no mistake, even if the American worker gave in and relinquished any benefits from unionization or collective bargaining, the corporatists are going to move jobs to another country that will allow slave-like conditions to prevail. Witness the wholesale migration of American industry to India and China. Hell, they're even abandoning Mexico because they can get even cheaper labor in India and LITERALLY slave-labor conditions in China.

[gmoney]

12. I've heard anecdotal stories that sound rather crazy

Stories of people who are paid basically to show up and sit in a room or do useless work because the union protects certain positions, even though that position has been rendered obsolete due to technology or other reasons. The union prevents these positions from being modified so the employer can have these people actually do useful work. For instance, a story about our local newspaper goes that long after the paper shifted from setting metal type to using computerized methods, the union still required typesetters to set metal type for each story in the paper. So, while they were actually years behind, typesetters would still set the type in metal, make a proof, then melt down the slugs and start the next one.

Stories of quotas -- my dad tells the story of back in the 50s, employees were required to produce a certain number of parts in a day, so they would pull the "Cool Hand Luke" move of hustling in the morning, meeting their quota early, then spending the last few hours of their day in the bathroom reading or smoking. So even though the employees were demonstrating they could produce much more than their current quota, if the employer tried to raise the quota, it was unfair and grievances were filed.

There was a news story the other day, forget all the details other than a union was going to go on strike because management did not want to honor an 8% annual pay increase in this economy... ties into the perception that some unions will destroy their employer rather than compromise.

A lot of people blame the teachers unions and tenure for keeping bad school teachers employed by giving them "jobs for life" essentially, rather than holding them accountable for student performance.

A lot of people blamed the unions for the near-collapse of GM and Chrysler, as meeting union wage, benefit, and retirement obligations was over burdensome and didn't allow them to be competitive with "import" non-union automakers.

Then there's the whole set of corruption and organized crime stories from back in the day. Slush funds and union bosses living like kings...

It's been a long time since the movie "Norma Rae" painted a favorable picture of unions. Heck, even "Roger and Me" is over 20 years old now.

There's a strange disconnect between how the more physically demanding a job is, the lower it generally pays. Some people still marvel at how a union auto worker with experience may take home $100,000+ a year, but have no trouble with an insurance agent who sits in an air conditioned office talking on the phone all day receiving 3 or 4 times that much. And don't get me started on financial "wizards" who receive millions while getting astounding perks and lavish working conditions. I know I get paid a lot more than a lot of people who work a lot harder than I do... but don't expect the "haves" to change the system. And too many of the "have nots" have been led to believe that unions are a bad thing, so are happy to take non-union jobs and even vote against unionizing their own workplace.

[Recursion]

17. And the thing is, every one of those probably has a rational explanation

But as you hear more and more stuff like that it just sounds so stupid.

Also, at least for younger workers like me there's the resentment that unions were the club with the good jobs that we couldn't join. "Sorry, this is a closed shop, no job without a union card. And no union card without a job. Later, kid"

[iamjoy]

33. Historically, There's Justification

The idea of protected positions was to prevent people from being forced out by less skilled workers. It seems silly now when we have technological advances that truly have made some positions obsolete, but you can imagine years back that companies might have made some subtle shifts in job duties in order to justify firing good workers.

As for quotes, the factories used to impose unrealistic quotas on workers - so much so that it was dangerous and exhausting. In other words, that "Cool Hand Luke" pace would be demanded all day, every day. Or the factory owners would start laying off people.

Tenure is a problem keeping bad teachers, until you consider that to a certain extent, teaching quality is subjective and it was all too easy to fire teachers because some one didn't like what they taught. I'm not talking about harmful or useless teachers, I'm talking about those who may have a different political view than the principal or superintendent. Such views are not always easily hidden, especially in those less objective courses like social studies and literature. heck, it can even emerge in science. Without tenure a teacher could be fired because of his/her views on evolution/intelligent design.

I cannot justify the links to organized crime or Union bosses living like kings. All I can say is where there is a vacuum, there are bad men (and women) who will seek to fill that for their own gain.

These things have contributed to a negative impression of Unions, but consider who controls the message. It is the corporations - upper management finds it easier to blame "greedy" labor for economic woes rather than their own bad decisions and high compensation. So, they make a big deal of a handful of true outrages and strip away the historical context to make it sound even crazier.

[Cirque du So-What]

16. Some darker reasons why unions are vilified

Xenophobia & racism still play a role today, just as they did in the early days of the labor movement.

I've also heard people express contempt for labor unions because they couldn't bear to see anyone else improve their wages or working conditions. Like crabs in a bucket that latch onto their neighbors and keep them from escaping, these people would rather see union members dragged back down to their miserable conditions. Short-sighted as they are, they fail to see that a company paying union wages in the area puts pressure on even non-union shops to raise wages.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. 30 years of Repugnut Propaganda has been very effective.

We are stupid and brainwashed.

[VioletLake]

20. Today, too many Americans require deprogramming

before they can understand simple, common sense concepts, such as the benefits of collective bargaining.

[Raster]

22. Too many Americans require deprogramming on so many levels it's appalling.

The dumbing down of America is real and happening every day before our eyes.

[Joe Chi Minh]

35. Some people like being divided, ruled and oppressed. They like

licking the boots that kick them.

[Skittles]

36. because repukes successfully painted unions as BAD

same as with LIBERALS, FEMINISTS, anything they don't like

[LiberalEsto]

38. Corporate propaganda nt

[ZombieHorde]

39. Why is this thread controversial here on DU?

A pro-union thread is "On the Fence"? What is going on?

[w4rma]

42. Because Obama is against unions. His people are busting teachers' unions all around the nation.

Oh I thought you meant Obama cheerleaders. Sorry.

[TygrBright]

43. I was brought up to NEVER cross a picket line.

Union through and through.

However, back in the 1960s my sister applied for an apprenticeship in a trades union that shall remain nameless. Not only was she not accepted, she was told not to apply to OTHER trades unions. Because she is female.

I know people who were denied apprenticeships and journeyman status in the 1960s and 1970s because they had no friends or relatives already in the Union to "speak" (i.e. pull strings) for them. Others who were excluded because they were the wrong color, or because their lack of "connections" and their ideas about how to do things differently were not welcome in the Union. That stuff piles up, and leaves a bad smell. Eventually, it makes the more fanciful allegations more believable.

There were abuses, when Unions were more powerful. With power, corruption inevitably follows. There are plenty of justified resentments and grievances in specific cases with specific Unions. And it became all too easy to conflate "all Unions" with "this particular corrupt Union official," especially when to do so was in the interests of the oligarchs. And when Union leaders were so averse to change and so reluctant to police their own hierarchy that Federal prosecution became the only way to bust loose their hold on power.

That said, I'm still Union through and through and I STILL won't cross a picket line. Regardless of the very real abuses that arose with power, Unions have always been, and still remain, the ONLY way to effectively fight the corporate fascisti and their oligarch masters. They are the ONLY effective way to counterbalance the greed and exploitation that kept the lives of working people miserable for centuries.

solidly,
Bright

[reggie the dog]

44. because they dont want to have a good standard of living

and dont want their children and grandchildren to have a good standard of living. that is the only reason to be anti union that i can think of, other than for the owners who hate unions because unions increase "production costs" (another term for production costs is "the standard of living of the workers", so we all know what "cuts in production costs" means right, "cuts in the standards of living of workers"
anyone who has delocalized a factory to get around what workers have demanded is a traitor to their country and people in my opinion.

[Daphne08]

45. St. Ronnie and his minions really went after the unions much

more fiercely than I had ever seen before.

[raccoon]

47. Because some of those are dumbasses in red states who never belonged to a union

but have been brainwashed to think unions are evil.

Same dumbasses who could really benefit from a union.

[Zoeisright]

48. Stupidity.

And refusal to believe history. And the idiocy to continually vote against their own best interests.

In other words, the American public.