Bin Laden is dead. Who cares? Don't we have more important things to worry about?

[ixion]

It seems to me that this Boogey Man far, far away and now very, very deceased is really the least of our concerns right now.

I see no joy in one human killing another. Ever. And although I consider bin Laden to be just as bad as any other murdering thug, I don't see this as a victory, nor anything to celebrate.

An old CIA operative is dead, killed by the same machine he served during Russia's occupation of Afghanistan. CIA operatives, like many other dangerous professions, have long since accepted this inevitability: The chances of them dying of old age are slim to none. The chances of dying in a firefight are fair to middling. Such is the nature of the work. The killing of this man, however, is a bittersweet victory, at best for the US. Since 911, we've seen civil rights trampled on a regular basis. The Constitution and Bill of Rights are STILL in the crapper, even after 10 years, and in fact it only gets worse, not better.

Do you really think the assassination of Bin Laden is going to somehow prompt a rollback of the unPATRIOTic Act, the MCA, Black Box Sites, The TSA and DHS? Do you really think this 'glorious' accomplishment will have any affect on the terrible state of our civil liberties?

Don't hold your breath, because it won't. The Police State will continue to march forward until We, the People say enough is enough. And feeding into the hysteria over the killing of this one human being isn't going to change that in any way. It's ironic that Obama used the theatrical presentation that he did (sudden announcement, late Sunday night) as if this is actually going to change something. It isn't.

This operation was a distraction, however temporary, from the two things that are critical right here at home: Our economy and our civil liberties.

Let me say that again: This bit of theater was brought to you by a no-jobs-stagflated economy, and by a Police State that loves to hear people shouting "USA! USA! USA!". And you know, it's interesting: We see clips from Mid-Eastern countries all the time with people shouting and chanting in the camera, and usually these clips are provided as visual evidence that the people of the Mideast are crazy, ill-tempered and violent.

Yet when we do the EXACT SAME THING, it's a beautiful expression of the glory that is the US and it's Global War on Terror. The truth is that these actions are why Noam Chomsky maintains his premise that the US is the largest state sponsor of terror in the world.

It's the truth, we are. And today is a good example of why we are.

Enjoy your revelry, just don't expect 'change.'

[Skinner]

1. Short answer: "I do." and "No." (nt)

[aquart]

2. +1

[JuniperLea]

4. Thanks for this! eom

[villager]

5. And the short snarky answers -- resisting all self-reflection -- are quite telling indeed

n/t

[Skinner]

8. Rightbackatcha! (nt)

[villager]

11. No further questions, your honor. (NT)

[emulatorloo]

12. Not quite sure why your opinions should be exempt from criticism

After all this is a discussion board.

[villager]

14. "After all this is a discussion board." Wait -- you're going to start *discussing* things now!?

Welcome aboard! ;-)

[emulatorloo]

20. Cute. I've been discussing things. OTOH your posts seem like binary sloganeering

I especially find your post about "Frat Boys" and "Group Think" to be rather shallow. I find your insinuations that many DU'ers are unthinking war mongers to be hyperbolic at best, and disingenous at worst.

[villager]

22. So -- we can count on you to set aside anything "hyperbolic"

...and "disingenuous" now in your own replies, in favor of less catch-phrase laden discussion?

I'm glad to hear it.

My opinion of the groupthink stands, however. You are, of course, free to hold an entirely different opinion.

And you're under no obligation to call anyone else a name, for having it! :thumbsup:

[emulatorloo]

23. Where exactly did I call you a name?

[villager]

24. Where exactly did you discuss anything? Other than commanding people to "drop hyperbole,"

etc., in otherwise blank postings?

That's not really discussion, just kind of shouting across the aisle. Come to think, I guess the model could work in Parliament, or on AM radio talk shows....

[emulatorloo]

25. So you think you can change the subject now. You insinuated I called you a name.

I did no such thing. Pretty much ruins your credibility.

[villager]

26. well, you insult people routinely, discuss nothing, then plea for the "rules" when you

...disagree. Like a schoolroom bully.

If you want to discuss, discuss. Stop your pathetic snarking, for Crissakes.

[emulatorloo]

29. I see you continue to fabricate things.

I don't think people are as gullible as you presume. The deeper you dig, the more transparent you become.

[villager]

30. Seriously, can you *discuss* something without insulting those you disagree with?

Just *talk* Quite doing your nyah-nyah-nyah stuff.

Just *talk* You said it was a discussion board, right? Quit being so angry with those you disagree with and discuss with them.

So, where were we? What was the actual issue at hand we disagree with? Let's go -- discussion board style!

[emulatorloo]

33. If people are willing to lie and make things up, I don't see the point in discussing

anything with them. Because they will always make up another lie.

There are several things in your last few posts that simply aren't true. Starting with your claim that I called you a name.

Oh, and I'm not angry. ;) (I know you like smilies)

[villager]

36. So now people who disagree with you are "liars?"

Sigh.

You didn't call me a name directly. But you engage in blizzards of insults, put-downs, etc. In lieu of discussion. The latest being the use of the loaded word "lie."

That's not discussion. It's definitely kin to name-calling.

Thanks for smile, btw....

[emulatorloo]

9. Drop the hyperbole.

[Buzz Clik]

10. They should tell you that people disagree with you.

Is that too hard to take?

[Teaser]

15. couldn't you just have extended the n/t to the subject line too

and saved us all a bit of trouble?

[Buzz Clik]

7. +1

I'll worry about other stuff later today or tomorrow.

It better be today. I have a final to write.

[Wait Wut]

21. +1

I should probably learn to comment like this.

[ixion]

31. Okay, of course I respect your opinion

albeit I would beg to differ.

[MineralMan]

3. It's one event, and one which has not much at all to do with

the other things you brought up. Life's complex. Politics is complex. International issues are complex.

I don't believe anyone's suggesting that bin Laden's death will affect those other things. It's just one bit of data.

I'm afraid I have to unrec your thread, for failure to understand the complexity of the world.

[Faygo Kid]

6. Pleased to unrecommend.

Geesh.

[TwilightGardener]

13. "Fair to midland"? Do you mean "fair to middling"?

[ixion]

34. Edited. Do you feel like discussing the topic? Or just making snarky remarks?

:shrug:

[TwilightGardener]

35. I feel like making snarky remarks.

[ixion]

37. Ah, you must be so proud...

[firehorse]

16. thank you.

I feel no jubilation, no joy what so ever. The urge to cheerlead, wave a flag has not over taken my spirit.

As someone who watched the world trade center crumble in front of my eyes from my lower east side roof, I am sickened by all of this faux patriotism and nationalism.

Things like single payer healthcare would make me feel jubilant enough to wave a flag. Things like a smaller military would make me wave a flag, so would a thriving middle class and quality cheap education for all. The past ten years turned a lot of Americans into violent embracing people who embraced water boarding and places like Gitmo, it turned our government into a climate that gave us illegal wire tapping. Thousands died, more are physically and morally injured through the experience of war. I find no reason to celebrate this latest distraction.

I'd feel a little bit better if Osama was taken alive, was put in jail, and we utilized our legal system and american principles such as due process to prosecute over secret military hit men.

[drm604]

17. By the way,

It's "fair to middling", not "fair to midland".

Fair to midland? What the heck would that even mean?

[TwilightGardener]

19. Obviously a weather forecast.

[ixion]

32. Edited. Now would you like to discuss the topic?

Or continue your snark fest.

[JohnnyRingo]

18. We can go back to worrying about "more inportant things" next week

That's how the news cycle works, isn't it?
I can't imagine a cable news channel saying they aren't going to cover the bin Laden story today because they have a special about melting glaciers, or in Fox News' case, a missing blond girl.

Catch up on movies or read a book for the rest of the week, the world will still be here when you return.

[RaleighNCDUer]

28. The 'more important things' are, as mentioned in the OP, all the things done to us,

to our nations, in the name of GETTING bin Laden.

OK, now we got him. Will we return things to normal?

Don't think so. Fascism is the new normal.

[damntexdem]

27. Well, actually, OBL was one of those "more important things" -- WAS.

But don't worry: we still have plenty of important things to worry about. No worry gap possible.

[ixion]

38. I'm curious: Importance implies some sort of quantum change would occur

do you expect something to change because of this? If so, what would that be?

I appreciate your post.

[center rising]

39. This is a big deal

I for one, am glad he's dead, never to bother anyone again.

[NothingRight]

40. Post seems to have polarized the group a bit

While the opinion about the significance of the death of Bin Laden may seem blasphemous to many, it is not without it's merits, and is certainly worthy of debate here.

If you had a friend or family member killed on 9/11, or in the various wars since then, you may have a fairly strong opinion about the quest for Bin Laden, finding his death to be a piece of closure, in a way like bringing the murderer to justice.

For those who do not have a direct connection to the events, it is easy to look at the last 9+ years and say our blind devotion to the destruction of Al Qaeda and Bin Laden have instead led to our instability and unrest.

According to many on the inside, one of the main goals Bin Laden had in this attack was drawing the Americans into a prolonged war they could not "win". He knew it would be polarizing here, as well as financially disruptive. There are many who believe that all of the items the original poster mentioned, like the Patriot Act, reflect victory for the terrorists, as we now seem to live in a constant state of paranoia, waiting for the next attack.

The great thing about being progressive, or liberal if you wish, is that we are willing to entertain a good, healthy debate on any topic, provided logic, data and facts are the basis of the debate. There is no productive point to a debate on things that are ideologically based, as they are strictly driven by faith.

My personal feeling on the matter was a sense that we finally accomplished a primary goal of the war on terror, declared in December 2001. It also left me with an "Okay, now what?" feeling. Bin Laden's death, from an operational standpoint, is not much more significant than that of a general, whose position will soon be filled with another general.

If we want to win the war on terror, we must stop acting terrorized, stop terrorizing other nations in the name of ending terrorism, and begin the slow process of building a dialogue with people of all backgrounds, understanding you can't please everyone, and someone will almost always want to kill you because they believe you are their mortal enemy for one reason or another.

The glory is that this is simply my opinion, and, as such, carries only as much weight as you give it.

[ixion]

41. the board was polarized on this topic prior to my post

And I knew that my opinion would be a lightning rod, in that regard. Still, I stand by my premise.

We need to learn to look through the emotion, collectively speaking. While I can empathize with people who lost loved ones that day -- and I mean that sincerely -- that event has been politicized and used to crystallize the US Police State, and I can't disregard that simply because of an emotional connection that some people had to the event. And I understand that my opinion sound callous, but the fact remains that the terrorists are the puppet masters orchestrating this train wreck, and this event, emotional or not, is being used again for political gain, and as a distraction from serious issues that are a REAL threat right on our front door.

I appreciate your heart-felt post, in any case.

[NothingRight]

42. Likewise

There is no way I can logically dispute your statements about the politicizing of the attacks for the use by war hawks who want to use their "bigger stick" to exert their wishes abroad. There is no question that the attacks themselves were, in part, because of a prevailing opinion that the United States speaks of Democracy out of one side of their mouth while supporting dictatorships that suit our own interests out of the other. I can't argue this fact either.

I think it is more of a personal matter, and I see nothing in your post that represents the fact that you don't understand and respect that fact.

It is our responsibility to call out our leaders for their wrongdoings, and I will never begrudge anyone for that. Sometimes we just have to understand that there are those who can't look past their personal connection to it, and that's okay too, because they have to mourn in the way that works best for them.

Thanks for the post, for the reply, and for stoking a fire that needs to be stoked.

[Scottybeamer70]

43. Thank you, ixion....

I completely agree with your post. Unfortunately the war machine will roll on. Those freedoms we lost with the
Patriot Act will never be replaced, I'm afraid. That would not suit their mission. This will surely tell us
whether or not bin laden was the real cause of the wars. If he was the reason, then I'm assuming the wars will
end promptly. If not, then we have just been told another pack of lies!
Thanks again for the post.

[KoKo]

44. We do need to look ahead. Bin Laden has been "dead news" for awhile. there are too many

other issues we have to deal with. I appreciated your post.

Even our President has encouraged us to "MOVE ON" ...so to address the issues that BinLaden and the failure to find him by the Bushies is their OWN FAULT...If Obama Found Osama then it's definitely TIME TO MOVE ON but to also look back to what the Bush Administration caused to happen to the RIGHTS OF Americans...because they failed to find him.

:kick:

[Marnie]

45. Osama's death means nothing if nothing to us or the world,

or,especially, to the Afgans and Pakistanis if nothing changes by his death.

We are still in four wars today just like yesterday, and we are still destroying this nation by fighting those wars.

Osama still wins. And the WH is still the rope a dope ten years and still counting.