Do you support your country even if what it does is evil?

[Emillereid]

So what does that make you?

By John Kaminski
[e-mail]

11/15/04 "ICH" -- It is truly a devil of a choice.

Support American soldiers murdering innocent civilians throughout Iraq and win the hollow, uneasy applause of your neighbors?

Or do you secretly root for Iraqi civilians turned revolutionaries trying the defend their war-wracked country against the murderous Western invaders ... and risk being arrested for treason?

You've heard the stories, if you've chosen to listen. Here's today's roundup: Gunmen in American helicopters shooting a family of five trying to swim across a river while escaping the carnage in Fallujah. Or killing doctors and nurses who were trying to help those wounded by indiscriminate American bombing. Or that story of the American soldier "finishing off" an injured Iraqi man.

These are only the latest of thousands of heartless atrocities wreaked on a ravaged country by an overwhelming military force that can only be described as completely insane. Representing a country that can only be described with the same phrase. The country in question is yours. Can you deal with that?

What America is doing to Iraq is a thousand times worse than Saddam Hussein every dreamed about doing to anyone! What America is doing to Iraq is worse than any dictator, no matter how vilified, has ever done to any other country!...

This writer doesn't mince words. This country has a long overdue date with karma.

So sorry -- http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7291.htm
(edited to provide link -- also the real title is Who is the Real Enemy)

[Javaman]

1. No I don't.

I refuse to be a nazi. That's why I voted for Kerry and not the functional moron.

[MatrixEscape]

2. What would TJ say about the subject? n/t

[aquart]

3. MY country. MY people. MY shame.

Not, however, my president.

[Vincardog]

4. I support my country always. I support the Government or oppose

the government policies bases on MY MORAL choices. I denounce the FASCIST policies of the Illegal Immoral Illegitimate regime of The Idiot Bush and the Rabid Radical Right wing nuts.

[scarletwoman]

5. Is there more to this piece?

You only posted the writer's email, not a link to the article.

Thanks,
sw

[knowbody0]

6. i flat out condem the illegal invasion and occupation

and i hope iraqis get their country back
killing people for defending their homeland cannot be spun into righteousness. the media calls the dead "terrorists" and many amerikans believe them. we have indeed sunk into a black hole, mayhaps this is hell.
when the fraud theories become fact, we must unite to bring sanity back. this administration must be held accountable.

[distantearlywarning]

7. I don't like...

crazy Muslim fundamentalists or crazy Christian fundamentalists. I don't root for either of them. I hope the earth opens up and swallows them both up so that the normal people everywhere can live in peace.

I do feel badly for many of our soldiers over there. They just have to do a job and many of them probably hate it.

I also feel badly for the civillians in Iraq. They were trying to make a living and not get shot when that asshole Saddam was in power, and they are trying to make a living now that the asshole Americans and the asshole Islamic fundies are fighting it out in their backyards.

[Djinn]

29. who says those fighting are all

muslim fundamentalists???

[puddycat]

8. real patriots are those like us who criticize the fascists in power

we are the ones trying to hold on to the vision of the founding fathers, and its a maddeningly difficult job when faced with radical right-wing reactionaries who don't even understand the Constitution.

[MISSDem]

31. When the country falls into chaos,

patriotism is born - The Tao

[indigobusiness]

9. Non-cooperation with evil is a sacred duty.--Ghandi

John goes on to say:

We have let our world be radically changed by a few evil, rich, white and soulless businessmen who control the information we receive and the appartus that governs us, and now we have let 200-plus years of relative freedom go down the drain simply because these men wanted to make even more money and sold us on a story that convinced us we were in danger from a foreign threat, just like they always do, just like they have always done.

They have changed the character of the world based on a big lie that we swallowed because we failed to have the courage to challenge what they said.

And look what happened. This killing will never stop, you know. The dogs of war have been unleashed. Those American kids who are doing all that killing in Iraq will bring all the stuff back home, and give it to us here.

---
------------------

John has the guts that few do these days. The courage to stand up and voice what is festering within the American soul.

[LSparkle]

15. It makes me feel better to know someone's saying what I feel

It's a tragic choice ... I love this country but I'm feeling more and more like it's been taken over by aliens and therefore, I can no longer support what it does.

[indigobusiness]

23. They've stolen so many fibers, the fabric is nearly unrecognizable.

I don't know if the texture can be restored. I doubt it. Sadly.

[Magical]

10. I'm Outraged

I'll say it plain and simple.

The people responsible for ordering this are War Criminals.
These are crimes against all of humanity and anyone who is not repulsed by this war has lost their humanity.

I can find no moral distinction between the thousands of innnocents including women and children killed in Iraq and the Beslan massacre.

Bombing cities and hospitals, killing doctors and nurses and families trying to escape turns my stomach.

While the slaughter goes on, America attends their weekend sporting events and cheers some heroic sports figure driving a fast car or catching a football.

No flag, no patriotic programming, no 'unite' slogans, no democracy chants, no divisive us .vs them rants, can convince me that these actions are justified.

Anyone trying to justify this in the name of Christ or Patriotism is delusional.

In the name of Jesus, stop this war.
Blessed are the peacemakers.

[Village Idiot]

11. I'm not sure - I am a Canadian...

my country rarely does ANYTHING AT ALL....let alone ANYTHING EVIL!!!

[DuaneBidoux]

25. Everytime I see a post from a non-American I feel obliged

to ask: are you all just standing around sucking your thumbs over there while the equivalent of a 21st century Hitler rises to power?

Is there any kind of organized move against American goods and products? The American corporations must feel the squeeze or it will simply get worse. Do you sense a change among Canadians: a refusal to visit America and spend their money here? A refusal to buy American products? This is the only thing that is going to stop this crazy man.

[Warpy]

12. I'll be grateful when we get our butts kicked out of Iraq

because that means our guys will come home safe. The ones still alive, that is.

Otherwise, it's a war of attrition on both sides, ugly and endless.

Bush never thought of that part, did he? He thought it would be rose petals and a peaceful transition.

I support my country and its constitution. I do not support the illegal and murderous Bush regime.

And I'm quite looking forward to the conversation in the camps when they round up all Democrats.

[toymachines]

13. is there a true "good" that exists in the world today?

i mean didnt america used to be the "good" in the world, that protected it from the takeover of evil tyrannies? We fought the nazis and the fascists and other evils for the good of the world. or maybe that was just an illusion, like so many other things. in either case, where is the country or alliance of countries which would have the balls to give us an ultimatum with some sort of actual power behind it. not just an empty threat, or some foreign media hype that most of the US will never learn of or even try to hear about. We are imperial, criminal, and irrational. Where is the country or alliance that will stand up to us? Is there an actual good who will stop us from taking over the world? Europe, South america, australia, canada, anyone? or have the evils in the world outweighed the good, and those who really want to fight for good have no power to do so? oh well, at least i got to rant. these crimes are perpetrated every day in our name.why?

[Emillereid]

14. That's the question that haunts me --

Is there no force in the world or the universe that can stop the US?

It looks like it's going to be up to 'we the people.' And I don't think the electoral process is where the change is going to happen -- not so long as private corporations in league with the Repukes are in charge of the electoral process.

Where's our Luke Skywalker and Hans Solo?

[toymachines]

16. what we need is a freakin wookie.

he could do some of his own political purging.

[Emillereid]

21. Wookies unite!

[UL_Approved]

17. I support the United States

That's why I voted for John Kerry/John Edwards.

Remember people, the fight just began, and with election fraud and questionable ballots, the election hasn't ended yet. No matter what happends, perseverance will make things happen. The Neo-con movement has been at it 24/7/365 since the late 1970's. We let ourselves go in the Clinton years. Now we fight.

[toymachines]

18. ok ok, i see how the US could be good, but...

at the present moment we are bad. i agree this can be changed. ha, that even gave me some optimism for the future. the only problem is that we must fight harder than we ever have. i hope we can do it. we need to wake up the many that are apathetic, and then work on the stupid majority of america. i, hate to say it, but an uninformed, misinformed, and generally irrational majority does not make a good voting public, and thats what we have. thank you for changing my tone, it was getting a little dreary.

[OneBlueSky]

19. kudos to Kaminski for having the balls to tell it like it is . . .

this article should be required reading for every American . . . although for some -- perhaps a great many -- I doubt that it would have any effect at all . . . almost kickoff time, don'tcha know . . .

oh . . . to answer the question . . . no, I don't support my country when it does evil . . . which makes it damned difficult to support my country at all these days . . .

[ixion]

20. I can't condone killing innocents

no matter who is doing the killing.

[Briar]

22. No

We are a vulnerable species living on a fragile world which we have endangered by our folly and greed. It is time we stopped thinking about countries and started thinking about humankind. Thinking about countries produces the greedy and cruel arrogance which is Bush's America.

[struggle4progress]

24. I love my country -- even when it acts out. But I absolutely refuse to ...

... ignore or enable self-destructive behavior.

[starroute]

26. You oppose your country in the sweetest, most loving way possible

I've been thinking about these issues for a long, long time -- ever since the late 50's when it was first becoming apparent to my twelve year old self that the US wasn't necessarily the good guys. I thought about them again during Vietnam and yet again during the Reagan years.

I went through anger and rejection and guilt and self-hatred and a whole lot of other unhelpful emotions.

And the answer I finally arrived at is that you do whatever is in your power to counter the destructive policies of your own people and to aid the victims of those policies. But you never allow yourself to hate and you never give up hope that you can recall your own people to what is best in themselves.

Me, I'm a citizen of the country of Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln and Franklin Roosevelt, and I renew my allegiance to *that* America every day, at the same time that I oppose the monster which the current government of America has become.

If you can't support what you see around you, then support what you find in your heart. We are Americans, and we are good, and for the moment that is sufficient.

[OETKB]

27. We are dealing with government policy!

To put a good or evil face on our present troubles throws us into the same camp as those we oppose. This is not a religious or moral problem. It is about governance and our ability to interact with the rest of the world. There are ideas and ideology and they provide examples of their consequences when they are put into action. The citizens then have to decide what to do when a horrible mistake has been made.

When Gandhi and MLK resisted authority which was denying citizens their proper rights, the reaction of the authority showed that to deny these rights was wrong and needed governmental change.

As yet for a bare majority of our citizens, that example has not come yet. Unfortunately to make change there has to be dramatic social movement or incident that shows the obvious wrongheadedness of a present course. When that change does come those who had to change their minds are not punished. To humiliate the opposition is to invite more turmoil. This is the constant struggle to fight against our human instincts for survival. What this survival instinct tells us is not a uniform thing throughout this country, as if I had to tell this group that.

We believe war was never an instrument of peace. We on this blog believe in international law. These are far from universal beliefs. So, my friends, the conflict goes on. We will have to take stands and defend them. We will have to provide the vision of where it will take us. The actions of the opposition will provide the examples to bring change. As Harry Truman said(who made some bad decisions himself), "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. I've been ashamed of US foreign policy so many times in the past

30 years that I no longer trust ANYTHING that "official U.S. spokesmen" say.

Vietnam, supporting the Shah of Iran, Central America, Grenada, the first Gulf War, Panama, and now Iraq.

The U.S. foreign policy establishment is drunk with power. I wish someone was able to "do an intervention," the same way a group of us did an intervention with an associate in Oregon who was getting high on combinations of drugs and doing stupid and dangerous things.

Mainstream foreign policy and popular anti-intellectualism are my two most constant beefs with the U.S.

[MISSDem]

30. Yes I support my country. But your country and

whoever is in charge of the government at the moment are two differect things. As Jimmy Carter said at the convention, what is at stake in this election "is nothing less than the soul of America". We lost the election and right now, our soul needs to be re captured. We need a lot of soul caring.

[MISSDem]

32. Also, folks don't want to hear the truth (you can't

handle the truth?) Just like John Kerry was hated for coming back from Viet Nam and telling about the horrible things that happened there and hated for it anyone who points out the horrible things that are happening in this "war" will be called a traitor, too. "The soldiers are just protecting America". The day I removed my Kerry/Edwards stickers from my car's bumper I also removed my support the troops sticker.

[Fleurs du Mal]

33. Absolutely not

We are obligated to dissent and oppose injustice wherever we find it, including in our own streets and government. This is an age-old question well answered by Thoreau, Gandhi, and Martin Luther King, Jr. to name but a few.

[cyr330]

34. HELL no

[imenja]

35. Criticizing the government is supporting the country

I love my country and support it always. That is precisely why I oppose George Bush. He's damaged the US domestically and abroad. He also threatens Democracy. We don't need to reject our country to protest bad policy.

[colonel odis]

36. i no longer support my country. period.

seeing the marine murder the guy in the mosque was my tipping pont.

[The Zanti Regent]

37. My Jon died for this liar. I want out.

I'm in California. I want to be liberated from Jesusland and work with others to secede from this evil Reich.

Let's make the US of Canada a reality and let Jesusland go to hell!