What will happen if AIDS depopulates Black Africa?

[Silverhair]

Last month's Discover magazine had an excellent article on how AIDS is spreading in Sub-Saharan Africa. The portion of the population with HIV is huge, and nothing seems to be working. The drug treatments are insufficient, education about avoidance isn't working. Even if a preventive vaccine is developed, it is already too late for so many. And those that are dying are the younger to middle age people - the economic producers. The old and the young depend on them for their food and other needs. It appears probable that AIDS, in the next couple of decades, may cause a massive die-off of humans in Africa south of the Sahara. There are some exceptions to this, but they are relatively few.

Many other developing nations are also reporting alarming levels of HIV infection among heterosexual populations.

What will the future look like, if humans become almost extinct in central Africa?

[Lone_Wolf]

1. It is sad

There needs to be a serious effort by the world to keep this from happening. I think the U.S. should change how it uses "humanitarian aid" to other countries. Often the aid only goes to countries that support U.S. policy.

[jansu]

111. Cry for all of us!

The start of humanity began there and it is sad if that is the beginning of the end of humanity happening there. The beginning and the end in the same place! Poetic, bad sad.....

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. Pat Robertson will get to keep all the diamonds and gold

for himself & his pals?

That's why it's a sin to talk about birth control or abortion. They would rather watch people die from war and disease.

[Beaker]

61. that's pretty much the plan...

arming every faction to the teeth for decades hasn't worked as effectively as they had hoped...time for a more efficient way to wipe out the indigenous herds(kinda like buffalo bill and his pals did here) so's we can get at all those yummy resources and real estate.

[regnaD kciN]

129. But the labor force will be gone!

In the "race to the bottom" that is free-market capitalism, there is only so long one group can be used as cheap labor before they too become too costly for maximization of profit. Mexico held that position in the days of NAFTA, but now the jobs are all going to India and China. Eventually they, too will become "uneconomic." Africa was always the continent of last resort, where unskilled jobs would be funneled when China began to cost too much. If the workforce of Africa is gone, there's going to be an economic upheaval the likes of which we've yet to see.

(That upheaval may somehow result in a more humane worldwide economic system. I wish there was a less tragic way to achieve it, though.)

[jean]

3. Internation Aids Trust

Bill Clinton and Nelson Mandela are working with this organization. The website is here

Discover makes the future in Sub-Saharan Africa sound very bleak. I guess those exceptions will be the groups to re-populate the continent.

In the meantime, as Clinton has said, it's important to work on this crisis fast and furiously. When whole nations go down to this disease they end up as "failed states" which are then overrun by terrorist groups.

[alittlelark]

63. I'd guess the 'failed states' will be overrun

by multinational corporations slavering over natural resources.

[jean]

72. they already have a strong foothold, I'm sure

[Loonman]

4. How can we do it?

The money that gets earmarked and donated just goes into dictator's pockets, and then the dictators turn around and say "Americans are putting AIDs in the condoms, don't use them".

Or they come up with some wacky-ass idea like sex with a virgin will cure or protect you from AIDs.

We must help the people, but the majority of Central Africa is ruled by insane dictators.

[Lorien]

115. Very true

all this talk about Saddam, and some of the most brutal dictators on earth never see even a moment of air time on American newscasts!

[Vogon_Glory]

5. There Will Be Some Survivors

Even if the Boosh administration and its Republican/"conservative" allies continues its do-nothing policy towards sub-Saharan Africa, there will be survivors.

Whatever I may think of the puerile apologists for the "just say no" policy towards sex education, I suspect that the majority of survivors in central and southern Africa will be those who were abstinent, had negative test results, and stayed monogamous.

This is not a defense for the so-called "abstinence" movement. This is merely basic biology for an area sadly lacking in sanitation, medicines, vaccines, and education.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

7. There is a tiny percentage of population who's naturally immune, isn't it?

Those will be among the survivors too.

[Nikia]

102. 25% of European descent are immune

A mutation keeps it binding. I don't have the reference. We studied a paper on this in my college moleculear biology class. The study was based on gay men with and without HIV. No one with this mutation had HIV. Only those of European descent had this mutation and it was around 25%.
Africans could also thave this mutation but it is not established in the population as a whole.

[starroute]

34. Africa has more genetic diversity than the entire rest of the world

That sort of diversity is the best possible protection against a group being completely wiped out by disease. For example, I saw a story a while ago about prostitutes, I think in Kenya, who seemed to be naturally immune. AIDS has been particularly devastating in Africa because of its poverty and folk beliefs, but Africa may also be the area of the world that is most likely to come through with its populations relatively intact.

Of course, the key word here is "relatively." AIDS is hitting hardest at the most urban, educated, and economically successful groups. If the survivors after the dust clears are primarily subsistence-level peasants, those countries are going to be a long time catching up with the 21st century.

I'm more concerned about the less visible spread of AIDS in India and China, which even without reaching pandemic levels could cripple their economic growth within the next few decades and leave the world economy in a long-term state of stagnation.

[NWHarkness]

39. The problem is bigger than that

Even those who do not succumb to AIDS will be at risk from the social collapse that the epidemic may cause. Widespread famine is likely and the public health infrastructure may collapse, leading to the spread of other epidemics.

[Beaker]

87. of course.

and they'll make excellent serfs.

this time, we're going to get that colonization thing right, dag-blammit.

[virtualzero2]

119. This is somewhat silly

First off the Boosh administration has attempted to do more for Africa than the previous Clinton administration did. Why is it the do-nothing policy when it is the most involved policy to ever come out of America or any other part of the world?

As well, why is it not a defense 'for the so called abstinence movement'? If it will keep people alive it seems like a good enough defense for me. Is it better to let people die than to support the abstinence movement?

[Taeger]

125. Words mean nothing !!!

Compassion is more than talking. Bush has actively moved to take away funding for organizations that distribute contraception.

Yes, as far as Bush is concerned, no rubbers for Africans.

Oh yeah, and there was the pledge of $15 billion for anti-Aids medication. Of course, this was as well funded as his pledge of $3 billion for New York reconstruction.

[Solomon]

131. Not to mention the fact that every "pledge" he makes the money

winds up going into his friend's pockets. It kills me that some folks are crying about money spent in africa as though it's the africans who are benefiting and not the corporations who get to make the money.

[libview]

6. question......

how are these people getting the desease? It's not like it's airborn or something. Why is it so widespread?

[Maeve]

8. From the article, part of the problem and solution

I posted this in a thread discussing the topic last month:

The basic premise is that there is a difference in African sexual behavior in that there is a greater prevelence of multiple on-going relationships. This, combined with the higher rate of passing on the virus early in the infection means that it spreads quickly across the web of relationships. A support for this theory is that the "zero grazing" campaign in Uganda during the 80's and 90's resulted in a drop in HIV infection from 18% in 1993 to 6% today. It was also noted that Uganda's woman's movement (one of the oldest and most activist in Africa) contributed strongly to the change.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1020395#1020496

[skypilot]

10. Months ago I posted on another thread...

...about this. The person who responded worked in the AIDS field and she admitted at one point that she thought the numbers were exaggerated somewhat. When I started the thread my main question was how do they distinguish between Africans who are dying of AIDS and Africans who are dying from any number of other diseases that people are exposed to in Africa. I was, and am, fairly certain that all these sick Africans are NOT getting HIV tests. That would be millions of HIV test--not to mention the follow-up tests to confirm the original diagnosis. I've read that even here in the US doctors will give what's called a "presumptive diagnosis". A guy comes in sick, the doctor takes a look at him and determines one way or another that the guy is gay and a "presumptive" HIV positive diagnosis is made without doing any actual test. I'm sure this goes on in Africa. I'm not trying to downplay the tragedy of AIDS in Africa but I don't always trust the numbers that are being thrown around.

[DenverDem]

9. AIDS is doing the job it was created to do,

depopulation worldwide in target populations.

[skypilot]

11. "target populations"????

That's very charming.

[Solomon]

14. Actually, its not very charming

at all. Nice way of dismissing it.

[skypilot]

16. I'm not dismissing it.

I'm just wondering why he thinks that certain populations have to be targeted or why he thinks that this "targeting" is the "job" of AIDS or any other diseases.

[DenverDem]

26. I am hardly supporting the targeting of AIDS

I am saying that I believe that the disease was created in power elite laboratories to do exactly what it is doing, depopulating groups who could challenge the elites economic and mind control dominance i.e GLBT, Africans, drug users and working class populations worldwide. This assists in the demonization of these groups as well as killing them off, it's a power elite magic bullet.

[freestatevet]

56. And I'm sure

you have some credible proof to back that up, right?

[hang a left]

84. There is plenty out there to research on this. Try google.

Do your own research. I've done mine.

[Terran]

94. Oh no.

You make an outrageous assertion and then decline to offer any proof of it. No wonder no one believes you.

[veganwitch]

18. actually i think thats quite true

when you look at the outbreak of AIDS in the gay community in the early 80s, it was dismissed as a "gay disease."

if there was a disease that disproportionately affected rich, white, god-fearing folk, there would be a cure found next week.

[TSElliott]

22. Have they found a cure for Cancer yet?

I mean if it were so easy to cure Aids, I am sure they would have found a cure for cancer by now.

[Loonman]

23. Cancer? Parkinsons? MS? Diabetes? Hypertension?

Pick one.

[TSElliott]

24. Don't forget the common cold and the flu.

n/t

[DenverDem]

32. Try not eating meat,

and call me in the morning. I guarantee that would take care of all of the above.

It's not that complicated people.

[Loonman]

35. Riiiiiiiight

I'll go get a salad right now.....

:eyes:

[DenverDem]

37. Good start.

**

[TSElliott]

48. I know you do not believe

that by not eating meat you can cure cancer, diabetes and other diseases.

Lower the chances of getting them yes.

[DenverDem]

58. If you don't eat meat you won't get cancer except through

other environmental toxins in the water or air.


If your went on a macrobiotic diet you would greatly increase your ability to survive cancer once you already have it.

That is what I believe.

[DrWeird]

60. Even if you don't eat meat, the chemtrails will get you.

In fact, meat (particularly from cute animals like baby cows) contains many chemtrail protecting additives.

[DenverDem]

64. Oswald acted alone,

there were no guns for hostages, the invasion of Iraq was to free the citizens et al ad nauseum.

Gullibility does not disprove power elite conspiracies.

[Beaker]

65. Bull. Shit.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

human beings are by nature hunter/gatherers. Meat is a completely natural part of our diet.

despite what you may believe.

[DenverDem]

69. Carnivorism is not physiologically supportable.

Human intestines are not able to digest meat completely like carnivores in the animal kingdom. The resultant toxic sludge in your intestines creates the cancerous cellular disfunction that leads to cancerous cell growth. This inefficient elimination of meat and animal products also leads to hypertension, obesity, diabetes etc.

[Beaker]

83. omnivorism is.

sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but everyone dies.
and for my money, life wouldn't be life without an occasional nice triple-cut prime rib, dripping in au jus...mmmmmmmm

how's that alfalfa sprout going for you...?

[DenverDem]

90. When we are both 80 I'll match quality of life with you.

I feel a lot better now than I did when I was a carnivore, and I presume that will only continue. I have been a vegetarian since 1975 and it hasn't killed me yet.

Sure, I'll die, but in the mean time I will be healthier, happier and free of pain from diet related diseases. I love alfalfa sprouts and tofu and find meat disgusting, but to each his own.

[Beaker]

92. humans aren't "carnivores" we're omnivores

so if you were living as a carnivore, you probably would feel physically lousy.

As for reaching 80- I probably won't, due to a congenital spinal condition(which BTW prohibits me from eating dietary starch). But I'm sure that my 97-year old steak-eating aunt or my 84 year old pork-loving uncle would be happy to swap stories-

[NickB79]

95. Could you please define what's in "toxic sludge"?

This is one of the key words to watch for in ads for herbal remedies, miracle cures and other such BS you see and read about. They can't actually give a chemical breakdown of what these "toxins" are or how they might cause a cancerous tumor to develop, but they know they're there and they're bad.

Could you please elaborate on the biochemical pathways that generate this toxic sludge, the chemical composition of said sludge, and how it interacts with the cellular DNA of human cells to cause mutations that eventually lead to cancer?

[DenverDem]

99. Fecal remnants

undigested waste matter that creates layers of residue in the intestines. If you cannot imagine the toxicity of this residue then a chemical analysis would not convince you either. This coating of the intestinal linings limits absorption of nutients and creates a toxic stew that is absorbed into the bloodstream through intestinal cilia.

If this is not plausible to you, what is your theory of how cancer cells develop?

[NickB79]

105. So vegetarians don't produce fecal remnants?

I've never heard that vegetarians no longer create feces, have you? What makes the fecal matter of someone who eats meat more toxic than the feces of a vegetarian? What unique mutagens are present? You still haven't elaborated on this.

What physiology textbooks have you read that mention "residues" building up in the intestine? That's not in my textbook last I checked. You state that this residue builds up on the intestinal lining and the "toxic stew" is then absorbed through intestinal cilia. If you were familiar with the human digestive tract, you would know that most intestinal cilia are in the small intestine. However, feces aren't created until water is reabsorbed in the lower intestine, where there are few cilia present. Unless someone has a pre-existing medical condition, the lower GI tract is actually quite clean, with muscular contractions occurring several times a day that move fecal matter down the lower intestine and into the colon. Feces don't just build up unless you are suffering from a medical condition or constipation, and eating moderate amounts of meat does not cause constipation.

I would actually love to read a chemical analysis on the composition of "toxic sludge." Do you happen to have a link to one I could read, or perhaps a link to another peer-reviewed paper published in a scientific journal?

My theory on cancer cell development are the same as that maintained by the general scientific community. Cells, when subjected to possible mutagens, experience damage to their DNA which, if the cell is unable to repair, could result in uncontrolled growth and tumor formation. But this is a strawman argument, something I'm sure you realize. You never put up an argument challenging the basic theory of cancer development, nor did I. You put up an argument about a mythical "toxic sludge" forming a "residue" in the human body that in some unspecified way causes not only cancer, but according to your own statements, "hypertension, diabetes and obesity." That would be quite a substantial claim if true, but unfortunately the scientific community has not found evidence to verify this yet.

On edit, I noticed you mentioned that not eating meat would also stop MS and Parkinson's, both of which are still not fully understood and might be partially genetic in nature. Your words were "I guarantee that would take care of all of the above." Not eating meat might prevent possibly genetic-based diseases?

[DenverDem]

108. Vegetarians digest their food

meat does not fully break down. This undigested material is what sticks to the intestinal lining. The higher levels of fiber in vegetarian diets also assists in better eliminations.

[AlienGirl]

121. How My Cancer Cells Developed

A genetic mutation in the squamous cells, the middle layer of cells in the skin of my tongue, caused a few of them to go berserk. The mutation, near as I can tell, is related to a hereditary autoimmune problem.

My long-standing veganism was no protection against the basic problem in the DNA of some of my cells.

Tucker

[jeffrey_X]

123. Humans are not designed to eat meat...

Meat-Eaters

Carnivorous animals, including the lion, dog, wolf, cat, etc., have many unique characteristics which set them apart from all other members of the animal kingdom. They all possess a very simple and short digestive system -- only three times the length of their bodies. This is because flesh decays very rapidly, and the products of this decay quickly poison the bloodstream if they remain too long in the body. So a short digestive tract was evolved for rapid expulsion of putrefactive bacteria from decomposing flesh, as well as stomachs with ten times as much hydrochloric acid as non-carnivorous animals (to digest fibrous tissue and bones). Meat-eating animals that hunt in the cool of the night and sleep during the day when it is hot do not need sweat glands to cool their bodies; they therefore do not perspire through their skin, but rather they sweat through their tongues. On the other hand, vegetarian animals, such as the cow, horse, zebra, deer, etc., spend much of their time in the sun gathering their food, and they freely perspire through their skin to cool their bodies. But the most significant difference between the natural meat-eaters and other animals is their teeth. Along with sharp claws, all meat-eaters, since they have to kill mainly with their teeth, possess powerful jaws and pointed, elongated, "canine" teeth to pierce tough hide and to spear and tear flesh. They do NOT have molars (flat, back teeth) which vegetarian animals need for grinding their food. Unlike grains, flesh does not need to be chewed in the mouth to predigest it; it is digested mostly in the stomach and the intestines. A cat, for example, can hardly chew at all.

Human Beings

Human characteristics are in every way like the fruit eaters, very similar to the grass- eater, and very unlike the meat eaters. The human digestive system, tooth and jaw structure, and bodily functions are completely different from carnivorous animals. As in the case of the anthropoid ape, the human digestive system is twelve times the length of the body; our skin has millions of tiny pores to evaporate water and cool the body by sweating; we drink water by suction like all other vegetarian animals; our tooth and jaw structure is vegetarian; and our saliva is alkaline and contains ptyalin for predigestion of grains. Human beings clearly are not carnivores by physiology -- our anatomy and digestive system show that we must have evolved for millions of years living on fruits, nuts, grains, and vegetables.

Furthermore, it is obvious that our natural instincts are non-carnivorous. Most people have other people kill their meat for them and would be sickened if they had to do the killing themselves. Instead of eating raw meat as all flesh-eating animals do, humans boil, bake, or fry it and disguise it with all kinds of sauces and spices so that it bears no resemblance to its raw state. One scientist explains it this way: "A cat will salivate with hungry desire at the smell of a piece of raw flesh but not at all at the smell of fruit. If man could delight in pouncing upon a bird, tear its still-living limbs apart with his teeth, and suck the warm blood, one might conclude that nature provided him with meat-eating instinct. On the other hand, a bunch of luscious grapes makes his mouth water, and even in the absence of hunger he will eat fruit because it tastes so good."

Scientists and naturalists, including the great Charles Darwin who gave the theory of evolution, agree that early humans were fruit and vegetable eaters and that throughout history our anatomy has not changed. The great Swedish scientist von Linné states: "Man's structure, external and internal, compared with that of the other animals, shows that fruit and succulent vegetables constitute his natural food."

[Kaysera]

130. ... then why do we eat it ... and like it ?

Furthermore, it is obvious that our natural instincts are non-carnivorous. Most people have other people kill their meat for them and would be sickened if they had to do the killing themselves. Instead of eating raw meat as all flesh-eating animals do, humans boil, bake, or fry it and disguise it with all kinds of sauces and spices so that it bears no resemblance to its raw state. One scientist explains it this way: "A cat will salivate with hungry desire at the smell of a piece of raw flesh but not at all at the smell of fruit. If man could delight in pouncing upon a bird, tear its still-living limbs apart with his teeth, and suck the warm blood, one might conclude that nature provided him with meat-eating instinct. On the other hand, a bunch of luscious grapes makes his mouth water, and even in the absence of hunger he will eat fruit because it tastes so good."

Most people today have other people kill their meat for them.

Back in the day ... your daddy would have gone out and shot the squirrel ... and your mama would have wrung the chicken's neck herself.

I would agree that man is not, naturally, attracted to raw meat.

But, of course, you must consider that we have evolved to the point where we can prepare meat to our liking ... and, for the most part, ... we like it.

A thick juicy well-prepared sirloin will excite as much human salivation as any grapes I know of.

A question to ponder is this ... if we haven't evolved to eat meat, ... then why do we do it ?

[Beaker]

136. yes, human beings ARE designed to eat meat.

we aren't carnivores.
we aren't herbivores.(i don't have a 4-chambered stomach...do you?)

we're omnivores.
meat is a completely natural part of our diet, as hunter-gatherers.

baked goods, pasta, etc...anything using milled flour or refined sugar- those things are NOT part of a natural human diet.

[Silverhair]

73. Even dinosaurs had cancer.

That's true. There have been fossils found that had bone cancer. And each dino certainly ate his natural diet with no technological toxin to bother it, and it still got cancer. Disease has been around for a looooooooong time.

[libview]

97. by that rational, try using protection or not f**king everyone in

the neighborhood, maybe the aids cases will go down.

[Loonman]

12. Unmarked Helicopters

:tinfoilhat:

[DenverDem]

31. Magic bullet theory

Lee Harvey did it all by himself, right?

Tinfoil is a great way to explain away a lot of nagging questions.

[Solomon]

13. Thank you Denver. I didn't want to be the one to say it.

Aids is doing exactly what it was created to do. General ignorance about africa fuels the belief that it is savage ways that account for the spread of aids there. Those jungle bunnies just screw willy nilly all the time, even with green monkeys.

Africa is still the most resource loaded continent in the world.

[skypilot]

15. My problem with Denver's post is that ...

ALL diseases are doing what they are supposed to do and Africa had no shortage of disease--and war, and famine--before AIDS came along. It's pretty much accepted that disease and war are population levelers. But what is this business about targeted populations?

[Solomon]

19. What he means is that aids was intentionally created in a laboratory

and unleashed on africa to de-populate the continent. Is that clear enough?

[skypilot]

20. Yes, it is clear NOW.

I just don't buy into that theory so that's not how I interpreted his original post.

[DenverDem]

28. So, the theory that AIDS was first spread by eating monkeys

in Africa is more plausible to you?

[skypilot]

38. Did I say that???

I don't think that anyone has definitively proven where HIV came from. Just because I don't believe that it was invented in a laboratory doesn't mean that I believe it came about from eating monkeys. How did you get to that conclusion?

On edit:Also, if you got back to post #10 you'll see that I question whether or not all the deaths in Africa that are attributed to AIDS are in fact AIDS-related. I can't help but think that a lot of African are simply being allowed to die from treatable and maybe even curable diseases and ultimately being lumped in with the AIDS deaths.

[DenverDem]

43. The monkey origination

is the NIH explaination.

[skypilot]

44. It may be the NIH explanation...

...but I still didn't say it was MINE--or that I had one.

[DrWeird]

53. Actually, the NIH explanation...

Is that AIDS is caused by infection with the Human Immunodefiecency Virus.

[DenverDem]

59. We are discussing the origin of AIDS and HIV not

the transmission.

[alittlelark]

80. Denver Dem's theory makes sense to me

Whould evil men do evil things? Yes. THe US has beenexperimenting on unwilling participants for a looooooong time. When did we stop?

If ya wanna yell at me you'll have to wait - got an 11:00 meeting that will last a coupla hours.

[Silverhair]

88. The problem with this fruitcake conspricay theory is that

the first cases of AIDS are known to have shown up before the technology to alter DNA was developed.

Of course, to the dedicated tinfoil hatter that is no problem. You will claim, without any evidence, the technology secretly, long before it was developed. And you wonder why conspiracy theorists don't get respect.

[DenverDem]

91. The problem with your personal attack is

(above and beyond spelling problems)
that DNA alteration was not theorized as the way HIV was developed. Creating virus in the lab is not a DNA based technology necessarily.

[DrWeird]

104. A few concerns.

First off, it would only be a personal attack if you specifically were called a fruitcake. The theory that HIV was engineered by evil american scientists to kill specific targets is indeed a fruitcake theory. But just because you go and talk about fruitcake theories, which only a fruitcake would subscribe to, does not you a fruitcake make.

Secondly, it was you who suggested that HIV was engineered to target certain DNA. But perhaps who got two different fruitcake theories confused, it seems you confused the fruitcake theory that scientists are now working on a gene specific bioweapon to wipe out undesired racists, with the fruitcake theory that the CIA created HIV using the polio vaccine.

Thirdly, if you can tell me how viruses can possibly be created without DNA or RNA based technologies I'd certainly like to know how. So would the rest of the scientific community.

Fourthly, people who spell 'explanation' with two i's shouldn't be using other peoples typos as underhanded swipes.

[Silverhair]

106. So how do you change a virus without changing the DNA?

Please inform us of that. Scientific articles, please.

And since I have peripheral neuropathy in my fingertips, I am prone to typos.

[roguevalley]

128. Jeez. How hard is this? We have now crowded every ecosystem in the

world and also its organisms, which native species living
there have developed immunities and live in balanc with them.
Going there new, you get hit with the local diseases and
they gut you out.

Consider what measles and small pox did to the native populations
of North and South America. Lewis and Clark stayed over the winter
with the Mandans and a year or so later, returning through that
same area, the tribes were gone, wiped out by disease.

Disease does what it does because its life affirming of itself
and takes whatever opportunities a host will give it. That's all
AIDS and flu and anything else does. Its new to us so it is
deeply toxic. End of story.

[Terran]

21. I think Denver Dem was saying

that AIDS is a manufactured virus designed to kill of 'undesirable' populations, i.e., gays, Blacks, Africans, intravenous drug users, etc. It's the tinfoil hat view...one to which I do not subscribe.

Dirk

[DenverDem]

27. "Tinfoil hat"

the omnipresent argument of denialists.

[Terran]

41. Unless you have some proof

that AIDS was created deliberately, you're promoting a conspiracy theory, by definition. I'm not a "denialist" (christ, what a silly term that is) because there is nothing there to deny; you don't have any proof that what you assert is true, so I must choose to believe tend to believe the likelier explanations. One of which is that the AIDS has always been around, but mankind's expansion into previsouly uninhabited/uncontacted regions caused it to come into contact with humans. This single explanation is far likelier than any conspiracy theory you can concoct, because of the sheer complexity of such conspiracy theories.

Was the flu pandemic of 1918 a conspiracy? The Black Plague? No.

These. Things. Happen.

[DenverDem]

45. The Pentagon is creating DNA specific bioweapons now,

that will attack a certain genus of homo sapiens and not others. This indicates that they have come a long way past being able to create bioweapons (diseases) that could target certain lifestyle groups.

It's pretty difficult for a civilian to "prove" what the black ops boys down at the lab are doing, but that doesn't mean they are not doing it. And just because we can't prove what they are doing doesn't mean it is irrisponsible to be suspicious, given the track record of the "intelligence" community. How complex would a conspiracy have to be if it were done in one lab by undercover operatives? Not very, I submit.

[DrWeird]

51. We're not going to solve any problems with psuedoscience.

The crackpot theory that HIV was created by the CIA with polio vaccines was debunked years ago, and it's not going to help coming up with new conspiracy theories.

Anymore than telling people that HIV doesn't cause AIDS or that condoms won't stop transmission.

[Xithras]

54. Where did you hear THAT crock?

Read some of the racial genomics studies and get back to me on that one. Fact is, there IS NO race gene. There is a large number of genes that tended to pool because of geography that created the racial characteristics that we see today, but there is no single race gene.

What would they target? The skin color gene, for example, exists in all humans...the actual tone of our skin is determined by RNA actions while we're gestating. Curly hair? Dark hair? It is impossible to distinguish the gene for dark, curly hair on a black person fron the gene for dark, curly hair on a white person. Eye shape? Controlled by multiple unrelated genes that control muscle and skin formation bodywide.

At the risk of sounding repetetive, I'll say it again...there is NO RACE GENE. Without it, it is IMPOSSIBLE to build race based bioweapons because you don't have anything consistent to target your viral agents against.

[DenverDem]

62. Dartmouth Medical College

<http://engineering.dartmouth.edu/~ethreats/whitepapers/Lowery.html>

[Xithras]

74. Says nothing about targeted biowarfare.

Can we build bioweapons that will kill every human they come into contact with? We already have. Can we build bioweapons that will target a single specific person? In theory, yes (in practice, there's a good chance that the CIA has already done so). Can we build bioweapons to target a specific race? No, because the concept of "race" doesn't exist in our DNA.

Your link says nothing to refute that, and doesn't even mention targeted bioweapons.

[Solomon]

68. How did we find out that there is "no race gene", hunh, unless we

tried to find it? And why would we try to find such a thing?

[Xithras]

76. There ARE doctors looking for it

Some population groups have more resistance to certain disease than others. Some population groups have more susceptibility to disease than others. In order to find out why, genome researchers first had to identify the genetic differences between the groups. What they discovered was that there was no single gene, or even small group of genes, that was either unique or differentiated enough to reliably allow them to predict a persons race based solely on their DNA. They can place a reasonably accurate guess if they look at the entire DNA sequence, but that requires computing resources that you just can't fit into a virus.

[Nikia]

103. Some genes are more prevelant in some populations than others

That is also why some genetic diseases are not rare in some populations while do not occurr at all in others. There are all kinds of small genetic difference amongst populations that could be targeted. It wouldn't kill everyone of that population of course and it might kill some members of the favored population. Don't think that some scientists aren't looking for these subtle genetic differences.

[Silverhair]

57. Horsecrap!!! The first human appearance of AIDS is KNOWN...

to be before Recombinant DNA technology was discovered. No, I don't have link to the article. Do your own Googling.

[DenverDem]

66. HIV is not resultant of recombinant dna manimpulation

nor did I theorize that. It's a virus. The discussion of DNA specific bioweapons is another topic.

[Silverhair]

77. To create a DNA bioweapon you have to alter the DNA.

I would hope that would be obvious, but I guess it wasn't.

To alter DNA REQUIRES manipulation of the DNA. But the first cases of AIDS are now known to have occured before it was possible to manipulate DNA in a lab. Hell, DNA itself was only discoved a little over 50 years ago.

So it could not have been done in a lab. Viruses are able to mutate all by themselves. It is called evolution.

[Terran]

93. You asserted that the AIDS virus was manufactured

Yet, the first US AIDS cases were reported circa 1978--possibly earlier, if memory serves. The ability to manipulate the DNA inside a virus that would be necessary to produce the AIDS virus artificially did not exist in 1978.

And btw, there's nothing wrong with being suspicious. It's healthy. But you seem to be far beyond the suspicion stage and well into being fully convinced, when it comes to this issue.

[NickB79]

96. HIV is an RNA-based virus

RNA is very, very similar chemically and structurally to DNA, and requires virtually the same technology to be manipulated as DNA does. This level of technology didn't exist until the mid-70's, and even then wasn't performed at more than a handful of labs worldwide. It's actually easier to perform DNA manipulation than it is to perform RNA manipulation, so scientists working on an early viral weapon in the late 60's/early 70's would have been far more likely to create a DNA-based virus, not an RNA-based one.

Furthermore, studies of the HIV virus using mutation rates to backtrack its history and estimate the date of emergence place the HIV virus entering the human species in the 1930's. I seriously doubt that there were scientists creating genetically engineered biological weapons a good 20 yrs before the discovery of DNA's role in storing and transmitting genetic code.

[DenverDem]

98. Link this, then

<http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0910-15.htm>

[Silverhair]

101. So a few guys NOW can imagine it. You still have the problem...

of trying to make something before the technology exists. Oh, I forgot - the used their secret time machine to go back and introduce the virus 20 years before the discovery of DNA. What a great cover up!!!

[veganwitch]

17. "we'll kill them off, take their land, and go there for vacation"

Rage against the machine - Darkness (of Greed)

edit: to add the rest of the lyric

'AIDS is killing the entire African nation
And a vaccine is still supposedly under preparation
But these governments they don't mind the procrastination
They say
"We'll kill them off,
take their land
and go there for vaction."'

[SoCalDem]

25. Africa will once again be "ripe" for the pickin's"

I have long believed that the "capitalists" see Africa as their next big adventure.. The only thing stopping them are all those pesky Africans..

The AIDS crisis is a beneficial thing to them.. They can wring their hands and feign sympathy, but they really have no interest in prolonging the lives of the afflicted, or even trying to cure them.

Knowing the sexual practices of the uneducated population , they see this as a way to spread the virus throughout the areas, so that it will "be over" quicker.

Africa has a lot of things that capitalists want, and it will be easier to take, once the population is sick, dying or mostly uneducated orphans..

People said I was cynical, but I still think I was right. :(

[DenverDem]

33. It's amazing that something that makes so much sense

is dismissed as the ravings of the "tinfoil hatters".

[Beam Me Up]

110. It's all about how far down the rabbit hole you've gone

or how far along on the "paranoid shift" you've gotten.
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/011004Hasty/011004hasty.html

[Solomon]

70. "Known sexual practices of uneducated people?"

How about the WHO spreading aids under the pretext of fighting it?

[SoCalDem]

79. Why else would the "do-gooders" be so adamant

about attaching so many "strings" to the family planning and women's health clinics..

The men in those societies (not the urban educated) often see the "use of a virginal girl" as a CURE for aids.. Some do not even believe that there is such a thing as aids..

Lots of the village men have had to go long distances from home for work and they use prostitutes.. They bring it back to their wives..

None of this is "news".. If an ordinary person can know the facts, you can be sure that the WHO and all the other NGOs know about this..

If they wanted to really take this disease on..

Women there do not have much of a chance:(

[beanball]

82. The return of the Europeans

it will be the new colonialism and you can bet your last peso there will be some bushes there.

[snippy]

29. Got oil?

[Solomon]

89. Snippy You Break Me Up. LOL!

Your timing is impeccable. I chuckle everytime I scroll through.

[Beam Me Up]

30. Isn't this why AIDS was invented?

[bleedingheart]

36. Seriously I think both Africa and the Far East are having such severe

problems with AIDS that the African continent will see a 50% population decrease in the next 10 years.

It is a monumental tragedy.

[Lorien]

40. I doubt that Africa will ever

be depopulated. The sad fact is that populations that are facing low life expectancy have huge rises in birthrates. What will probably happen is that the population will simply become younger (possibly even larger) and the suffering will continue to grow. It's a horrible sitution, and obviously there is little political will out there to change it. :-(

[cryofan]

42. what on earth makes you think we CAN change it?

There must be a BILLION people in Africa! What could we possibly do, even if every American bankrupted him or herself? And went into debt, too?

Not every problem is solvable.....

[Lorien]

114. Prevention and education is key

you can't cure the sick (only control the disease to some degree). But there are pervasive myths in many African countries (such as "having sex with a virgin will cure HIV") that must be addressed. We stopped distributing condoms in that continent as well, which has had a hugely negative effect. Women must also be empowered and educated about disease prevention. Debunking the myths and honestly educating the people about the causes of HIV will be the most effective way to go, IMHO.

[dumpster_baby]

117. hey, we need to take care of OURSELVES first

....before we go running off to Africa to solve their problems that they themselves caused. That things you talk of would BANKRUPT us.....

[Cleita]

46. I just read that article last night.

They had an interesting theory, didn't they. Here's the link to the article.

http://www.discover.com/issues/feb-04/features/why-aids-worse-in-afric... /

[Xithras]

47. Islam will prevent that from happening

AIDS is decimating all levels of African society but one...the Muslims. Islam teaches that sex outside of marriage is an executable offense...and women are already stoned for it, so the infection rates of AIDS among the African Muslims is very, very low in comparison with the other population groups.

What we may see is the extinction of the non-Islamic traditions in Africa through AIDS related die-off's and conversion (as the rate of AIDS deaths peaks it will be increasingly easy for African Muslims to point out their own low infection rate and say "See, become Muslim and Allah will protect you".)

It will be sad to watch the last of the African semi-tribal societies vanish under Muslim rule, but short of curing AIDS today, I see no alternative.

[skypilot]

50. I'd never thought of it but...

...that sounds like a very likely scenario.

[bleedingheart]

52. I would have to see the data on that to believe it because

just because someone worships a faith that prohibits sex outside marriage doesn't mean it never happens.

Now that doesn't mean they won't market that strategy to young Africans in order to convert them to the Muslim faith or even the Baptists faith for that matter.

[Xithras]

55. Of course it happens.

I never said that there is no AIDS among African Muslims, only that the infection rates are far lower than that of the general population. You have to remember that Islam allows plural marriages which dramatically lowers the rate of extramarital affairs...why cheat when you're bored when can just add another wife to the household? Since Muslim women must be virgins to marry, the rates of AIDS among married households is extremely low. And the women, of course, have the threat of public execution hanging over their heads if they cheat.

You will always have your philanderers who catch the disease anyway, and because of them AIDS will never be completely eradicated from Africa (until a cure is found), but the rates of infected people as a portion of the whole population will probably drop from up to 50% today to a tiny fraction of that.

[Silverhair]

71. It happens with much lower frequency. Very few things in life are

an absolute. But a society that takes sexual fidelity seriously does have much lower STD rates, and far lower out of wedlock births. That's a simple fact. I suppose you would say that if the rate doesn't drop to zero than it means nothing.

In Hold'em Poker, even AA somtimes loses to 72 offsuit, but I will sure bet heavily on the AA every time.

[bleedingheart]

85. Any drop in the rate would be good but I don't know that

just because someone belongs to a certain group that they are going to automatically adhere to that group's rules.

[Silverhair]

86. Not everyone will. It is a percentage thing. n/t

[Silverhair]

67. Yes, the groups that are SERIOUS about their religion...

have low infection rates. I have also read that the Assembly of God Christian groups have low infection rates, but I have no way to confirm this. However, I didn't want to point to religion in my original post as I didn't want to be accused of promoting religion. My threads are frequently controversial enough as it is.

[donsu]

49. the rich white guys in suits are just waiting to take over

AIDs is doing a pretty good job of killing people here in the US too, though you won't hear it in the news. and the price of AIDs meds is going up instead of down

[Lydia Leftcoast]

75. Judging from what happened after the bubonic plague

killed 1/3 the population of Europe, social upheaval, some of it bad (witch hunts) and some of it good (labor shortages causing a rise in wages).

[Astarho]

100. Interestingly enough...

AIDS attacks the body in almost the exact same way as the plague.

The PBS program called "Secrets of Death, Mystery of the Black Plague" discussed the latest research on the bubonic plague and its relationship with the AIDS epidemic. The bubonic plague struck Europe beginning in the year 1347 and when it finally came to an end, one third of the Europeans were dead. The bubonic plague is caused by a bacterium called Yersinia pestis. It attacks the body by invading the white blood cells and using them as a host to breed in. This is very unusual because the white blood cells are the cells that fight off bacterial and viral infections.

The mortality rate for the bubonic plague was very high. It was almost an instant death sentence. But some individuals showed full or partial immunity to the disease. Research by Dr. Stephen O’Brien (National Institute of Health) showed a correlation between this immunity and a mutated CCR5 gene, delta 32. This mutation prevented the plague from entering the individual’s white blood cells.

AIDS has some similarities to the Black Plague, more than just the lethality rate. AIDS tricks the immune system using the same pathways as the plague bacterium, targeting and taking over the white blood cells. Like the bubonic plague, some individuals possess full or partial immunity to the AIDS virus. This small group of HIV long-term non-progressors represents approximately 5% of the population. Dr. Bill Paxton (Aaron Diamond AIDS Research Center) showed the blocking mechanism that prevents the AIDS virus from binding to the white blood cells was – you guessed it – delta 32.

http://personals.galaxyinternet.net/tunga/AIDS.htm

Using the tools of molecular population genetics to identify exactly when the allele was last in force, the researchers were able to estimate that the gene variant was under a strong selection advantage approximately 700 years ago.

This period coincided with the period in history when bubonic plague was sweeping through Europe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/sci_tech/highlights/011025_ccr5.shtml

[tom_paine]

78. Sounds like Lebensraum for the Busheviks

I would expect Emperor George P. Caligula to immediately invade and "restore order" and "liberate".

Imperial Amerika needs Lebensraum.

[LeahMira]

81. Perhaps this is why...

... we aren't fighting for empire in Africa.

[Serenity-NOW]

107. Just had a thought, kinda tin foil but makes sick sense

Let's suppose for a minute that AIDs was engineered and unleashed in the 80's. Let's suppose a powerful group of slimy oil elites were already clear on Peak Oil, they knew in '69, and wanted to figure a way to soften the blow to their own wallets. What better way than to deplete populations of oil producing countries in advance of the crunch from Peak Oil. Also works for the DU all over the ME since that DU is dramatically affecting healthy births.

That way they get a win-win. Less people to defend their oil with no need to get serious about alternatives for a while and plausible deniability all the way around.

Scary idea.

[DenverDem]

109. Not implausible, however.

Depopulation is high on the power elite "to do" list.

[Cappadonna]

112. Ironic, since most of the elite claim to be pro-lifer................

.........But, I guess swatting down innocent people when they're full function human beings is more fun (and more profitable) than birth control and RU-486.


These people are scary, indeed.

[Solomon]

122. And they started propaganda in the 70's when the W.H.O. and other

various and sundry think tanks started publishing "studies" that indicated that the world was "overpopulated". Then they published all these studies which indicated which countries were "overpopulating".

Targeting the white gay male community first was the cover for infecting africa. Confuses the hell out of everyone. (Read my sig line).

[Silverhair]

113. Problem with that is that AIDS is known to have been around...

since BEFORE the discovery of DNA. Of course the tinfoil hatters don't believe in science if it goes against their religion.

[DenverDem]

116. And scientific research is incapable of being manipulated.

"If a scientist said it, I believe it."

Sounds like a religion to me.

[Beaker]

120. earlier in the thread-

you were talking about getting together at 80, and discussing quality of life issues...

I have one question-

how can tinfoil hatters, who see conspiracies around every corner, ever actually enjoy life ???

[Silverhair]

124. Not at all.

Science depends upon testable results and independent verification. Published articles are peer reviewed. Science begins with the facts, and moves to conclusions, then tests the conclusion and will try a different conclusion if the test don't work out.

A fruitcake conspiracy theory begins with an assertion in the absence of any evidence, and holds to the theory despite all evidence to the contrary.

AIDS has been documented to have been around before DNA was even discovered. That alone is enough to destroy you theory. But you will cling to your belief because it makes you feel like you are one of the "enlightened ones".

[virtualzero2]

118. The population will not become extinct

People won't become extinct in central Africa. The population will replace itself quicker than AIDs will try and kill it off. As well, given a worse case scenario, within a couple of generations immunity will start to appear among the survivors.

So long term, I don't see much of a change in regards to population.

Short term of course will be a disaster.

[RUredE4me]

126. It was planned...

Have you ever heard of "Population Control"? This been planned since the 1960's. Eugenics didn't stop after WWII. It's still going on. After they kill off the black Africans and take their land, they may be coming after you next.

Just think of it this way...what ever happens to black people in this world is an indicator for what is to come for everyone else around the world. I'll just leave it as that.

[Silverhair]

133. Horse crap!! How can it have been planned in the 60's...

when it was already loose in the human population in the 30's? And back then DNA was unknown. The HIV virus is a LIFE FORM and it mutates. Did you ever hear of evolution?

[Solomon]

134. Silverhair. What would you think if AIDS had not started with

white gay males? Let's suppose that it just broke out all over africa. Given the known history of the world, what would be your reaction? Would you think, (because of social conditioning and miseducation) that it's there because africans are savages, or would you be suspicious that something more sinister was afoot?

[Silverhair]

137. OK, let's assume that disease "X" has just erupted in

central Africa. I would still suspect natural causes. Humanity still does not have technology to design a virus for a target population. Once released, because it IS a life form, it would have to potential to sweep the world.

While humanity was still hunter gatherers, and living in tribal that were mostly isolated from one another, a new disease, if it was highly contagious and lethal, was also self limiting. It would kill all of the immediate tribe, and then itself die from a lack of hosts.

Today that is no longer true. Tribes aren't isolated so a new disease has no trouble finding new hosts. New diseases do pop up from time to time. It is a simple matter of evolution.

[depakid]

127. The population doubling time throughout Africa is about 25 years!

So any talk of Africa becoming depopulated by AIDS is, to put it politely, overstated. That's not to demean the abject suffering and staggering losses that people in African nations are faced with due to AIDS (along with malaria and dysentery). But the fact is that birth rates are projected to considerably exceed death rates for the foreseeable future, meaning that resource depletion is a much graver long term threat to public health in Africa than AIDS.

[SoCalDem]

132. Babies born with AIDS do not live very long

and with lip service instead of effective drugs, AIDS will eventually "win".:(

[Jose Diablo]

135. Aids is not just a African problem

Imagine an HIV that mutates and becomes "airborn", just as slow and just as deadly.

A truely frightening picture.