How do you argue somone when all they can say is "but Clinton......"

[Streetdoc270]

Tried to have a discussion with a co-worker today that actually had to be ended by another co-worker (who started the whole thing and than ran away). All this persons arguments was that when they needed unemployment it was denied by their past employer so now their angry at all welfaire recipents. I was laying out a nice argument for taxes and they just kept saying 'why should I have to pay to help others" so I said are you aginst schools? and then they started backtracking. But the kicker was the 'Are you better off now then 4 years ago?" question (which the other guy asked to start this discussion) I said "Being ex-military how can you approve of Bush cutting hazard pay at a time of war? And cutting Health care benefits?" Their reply was 'Clinton passed the cuts first' to which my answer was "really? Clinton passed the 2004 budget?" That stopped that line real quick, they countered with 'well Clinton was a lush' And I said GW is an Idiot so whats the point?" at which time the powers that be decided that work was not the place for us to be having this discussion....


Thanks for the rant space! It shure felt good to swing the ole Hammer!

[wtmusic]

1. Answer: you don't...

You come to DU and let it all out! :D

[Feanorcurufinwe]

6. Yeah, why waste your time?

There is someone else out there more receptive to your message that you should be talking to instead.

[wtmusic]

10. Congrats on your candidate

I've been away from the board awhile -- just wanted to pass that along. He is kicking ass, and it's a good thing. :-)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

15. Cheers

and congrats on yours, I think Dean has run a class act on his withdrawal, and I have hope and confidence that his new organization will be a positive force in the overall struggle. I especially like how there was a challenge at DFA to find 100 folks to run for office -- that's the kind of energizing effort that can really do good!

[Randomthought]

2. Clinton is running for president?

Don't even allow those nuts to frame the debate. Just say Clinton isn't running.
BTW Bush is the lush not Clinton.

[still_one]

3. The whole point

is that Clinton is NOT president, bush is, and look what he has done!

[otohara]

4. It's The Employer Who is Fighting Them

nothing to do with unemployment agency, or welfare reciepients. Time to redirect their anger at previous employer, fight the decission. Clinton was a lush ? WTF hard to argue when someone makes stupid statments like that.

Clinton got a BJ - Bush needs one.

[RT Atlanta]

5. thought

Repugs always seem to be "backwards looking" to me. By that, I mean they (and I am now painting with a broad stroke) seem to want to "go back to better times" and "how we used to do it," etc. I prefer to look forward at the opportunities and potential that lie ahead of us and to deal with current issues.

All of the foregoing lead me to this point: I would tell the clowns that the past is the past and we are dealing with the present and the mess that * and his henchmen in Congress have put us into.

[Frank_Person]

7. Clinton is not the president.

[Mountainman]

8. "but Clinton" means nothing to non wing nuts

They can bash Clinton all they want to each other but it doesn't win any arguments with us. They seem to not understand that all of the stories they bring up about Clinton are lies. They believe the lies.

You can't debate with someone like that. Just drop it.

[rock]

9. All attacks against Clinton degenerate into personal attacks

As a president his position is, er, um, unimpeachable.

[PVnRT]

11. Tell them

to shut the fuck up and get over Clinton.

[ThomWV]

12. Bush Has Had Over 3 Years

If they percieve problems with our Government (and don't let them forget that it is OUR Government) then make them explain why Bu$h has not fixed the problems with the aid of his Republican Congress. They have had adequate time to make any change they might have liked.

Then, as already mentioned, point out that Bill Clinton is not the President any more, that he will never be the President again, and that the question today is on of the job that Bu$h has done - wich is deplorable at best. Point out that if its change they want then it is Bu$h that has to go, Clinton is alread gone.

[historian]

13. ask how far back they want to go

Perhaps its washington's fault?

[ButterflyBlood]

14. say "Clinton is not running for president"

he's irrelevant to the following election.

[emc]

18. the point is your trying to convert repugs

I for one am trying to convert repugs to vote for a democrat at this time...But what I'm coming up against is the time old argument from them that this was all inherited from Clinton---you would think to talk to them that Americas problems since its inception started with Clinton---its frustrating----they just dont know how to admit maybe they were wrong about Bush-----

[Tactical Progressive]

16. Make it short and sweet.

Tell them that:

1) Republicans paid women to bring phony sexual assault charges against a sitting President, and that's all you need to know about the character and integrity of Republicans.

2) This entire mess - from letting 9-11 get through, to a totally dishonest attack on Iraq, to the skyrocketing 'supply-side' economic deficits - is all Bush Republicans. Dem's have barely managed to filibuster two extreme judges.


Make sure to throw their pretentions to character - which is what their Clinton references really mean to them - back in their faces at every opportunity. Don't let them get away with thinking their low ethics and morals are anything but. You've got a blatantly stolen election and disgraceful, phony WH and AF1 vandalism charges from the 'uniters not dividers' to fall back on.

Whatever you say just throw it in their faces and be dismissive. It's all they deserve. Be polite though!

[BiggJawn]

17. "Clinton isn't President anymore. Rush seems to have forgotten that..."

"Must you repeat EVERYTHING that Addict mumbles?"

[tom_paine]

19. Might as well trying to argue with Nazis who say "but the Jews"

Not possible. These people, many but not all of them, have been purposefully brainwashed and propagandized by the Party-Loyal Right-Wing Sub-Media, which has programmed them to accept no other information from sources other than Imperial Party approved.

Which is what Nazis, Commies, Ferd Marcos, ANY Totalitarians aim to do to the poeple they wish to enslave. Make it so that they cannot be unprogrammed by "outisde influences".

The best way to do that is to program them not to receive any non-Party approved information. Which is, in the end, what the old Liberal Media BIG LIE is at the centre of.

If you continue with thsi, good luck, maybe you can convert a "kinder and gentler" Nazi to the side of Free America.

Good luck.

[FlaGranny]

24. One thing they've succeeded at

is actually programming us, too. They've programmed us to believe nothing they say. If, on a rare occasion, they decided to tell the truth about something, none of us would ever believe them. They have created permanent believers and permant disbelievers - I think they call that "divisive." Wasn't * supposed to be a "uniter." Hah! To be a real uniter, I believe you need to be trustworthy enough to be taken at your word.

[tom_paine]

26. Yes, I know. It is very disturbing. But I see no useful alternative

Like the Jews who hated the Nazis once they realized what they were about and just when they would "stop", we are also in danger of becoming what we hate.

Given the necessity of meeting zealotry with zealotry, and the evident danger of allowing lies to be told repeatedly without challenge by the Imperials, I see no other option than to become agressive (if more truthful) zealots than the Busheviks.

Consider it as a coat of armor you gird yourself for battle with. It is to be removed wherever possible and after the battle is won. Pity the poor bastards who don't even know they are wearing an externally imposed "suit of armor" but all they can is say, "How come it's so hot? Why does my mouth always taste like metal nowadays?"

The one exception to this is your assertion that, "They've programmed us to believe nothing they say."

True, but I wouldn;t call it programming, per se, as the Busheviks lie so frequently and so Orwellian-ly that there is nothing to do but disbelieve their every words because, like nothing I've seen since the Soviets, Nazis, Ferd Marcos or Khmer Rouge, they LIE 99.9% of the time!

Not programming, that aspect at least, just common sense.

[CBHagman]

20. The lush was Bush, actually.

Seriously, I've never heard the "Clinton was a lush" line before. They must be getting desperate if they have to invent vices, particularly vices the current occupant of the Oval Office has been so publicly associated with.

Anyway, here's something else you can throw at them. There are numerous examples of Clinton traveling the world and the country and interacting with non-screened crowds. He's been well-received, from what I heard.

Bush shows up in Northern Ireland, and hundreds (perhaps thousands) demonstrate against him and are to be kept at a distance.

Bush shows up in the United Kingdom, and 100,000 people, including novelist John LeCarre, demonstrate against him. He is kept away from the crowds. Moreover, they cancel his speech before PARLIAMENT due to fears that dissenters will become vocal.

In short, Bush can't handle real people and world events without a huge cushion of security and handlers and pre-cleared streets. Is this really what you want leading the nation? Can we afford to make enemies even among other industrialized Western nations?

[zbdent]

21. I counter with "So, when you were saying Clinton was a liar and he

did all those attacks to cover up the impeachment, you mean that he really was telling the truth and doing the right thing after all?"

[Zero Gravitas]

22. NEWSFLASH

Washington (AP) Unnamed sources in the White House indicate that Bill Clinton is no longer the US President. According to sources Clinton was replaced more than three years ago by George W. Bush, a failed business man and member of a well known aristocratic family from Maine. Angry white males around the country reacted with disbelief and anger. "If Clinton is not president, who can I blame for getting laid off last month?" sputtered Ima Moran of Green Castle, Indiana. Others claimed that this news was manufactured by the "Liberal Media." "Clinton appointed himself President for Life" said Ben Dover of Clover, South Carolina "I saw it on Fox News, everything is his fault."

[anarchy1999]

23. Refer them to Greg Palast and "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy".

Better yet, go buy the book and leave it on the person's desktop.

Best Tool ever discovered for opening minds.

A man I worked for said to me every day 15 years ago:

"There is nothing more resistant to change than there is resistance to it".

Only in the last few years have I come to understand the wisdom of his words and his cynicism. He owned a small business in the heart of Northeast Texas. A town since decimated by Wal-Mart and the military-industrilization of the US.

[magnolia]

25. I've had....

...the welfare argument many times. First...most people don't know that the bulk (I don't know exact percentage) of welfare recipients are handicap and children. Everybody understands why handicap people need help...so address the children. When a person is miserable as a child he'll make everyone miserable when he grows up. So you save money when you don't have to pay taxes to support them...but you need that money to get security for your stuff which they will be breaking into and stealing. Not to mention that you can't walk down the street because you have to worry about these former children that you didn't help robbing you and killing you. When they get caught...your tax dollars will pay for prisons and you'll be supporting them possibly for life. I think it's $40,000. a year per inmate. So when I hear someone say "these children aren't my responsibility"...I say "yes they are!" All children are everyone's responsibility. You are going to pay anyway...so it's just a matter of paying when they are young by helping them become productive members of society...or paying when they are adults draining society.

When people try to turn around a Bush conversation with "But Clinton..." I give it another turn. You judge a president by what happens during his watch...not before and not after. The fact is we had peace and prosperity during Clinton's watch. I ask..."What if everything that has happened in Bushes watch (listing them off...9/11, war and no wmds, loss of jobs, disappearing surplus, sky high deficit, etc) had happened in Clinton's watch...what would you be saying then? Would you be praising the great job he was doing??? I think not!"