Can a Vote for Nader be Justified? Help

[BonFiyah]

I have a friend who wants Bush out in November as much as any of us, but he says he doesn't trust Kerry. Actually he outright doesn't like him, though he doesn't give any clear explanation as to why, "trust" seems to be his issue. He does leave open the possibility that Kerry has time to change his mind before November as of right now he is voting for Nader or for no one at all. I wouldn't think anything of it, (and I prefer not to argue with him on this as I much enjoy our still unified front against true evil, Bush&Co), but in the last couple of weeks he has been busy, I just found out he has been able to convince about 8 other people to agree with him on this.

I can't keep quite any longer, I have to engage him on this, even one other person other than himself is one person too many. If you have any suggestions as to what points I should argue, or how I should approach this in the most effective manner in order to turn the tides here I welcome your suggestions.

[Killarney]

1. Tell him there are 2 reasons why he can't vote Nader

1) Retiring Supreme Court Justices
2) PNAC

Tell him to go to the PNAC website and read their statement of principles and read their goals that would only be fulfilled if a "Pearl Harbor like attack" occured (9/11) and then have him tell you he's going to waste his vote on Nader.

[THUNDER HANDS]

2. did he vote for Nader in 2000?

If so, he may just be too fargone to save. I'd suggest that he vote his conscious but quit trying to convince other people to vote HIS conscious too.

[BonFiyah]

18. He is very far gone

I dont believe there is anyway to save him. But I do beleive that I may be able to convince him to stop spreading his load all over the place. He is completely convinced that there is not way that Bush will loose in Novemeber.
But this is the same man who would not vote for Bush, but yet believes that we are more secure and more economically sound because of him.

[ulysses]

20. ?

But this is the same man who would not vote for Bush, but yet believes that we are more secure and more economically sound because of him.

Doesn't sound like any Nader voters I know. I think someone is pulling someone else's leg here.

[BonFiyah]

21. He did vote for him in 2000

As far as what he believes on Security and the economy he just sounds like he is spewing what most people are fed from most news on TV, he doesn't have a firm grasp on what is really happening as far as security and the economy. But for sure he is a Nader supporter, his heart is in the right place, but his mind... well he has it all wrong, as far as the reality of things.

[ulysses]

22. so did I.

I would suspect, at any rate, that his support for Nader and his belief about the Bush regime are disconnected.

[Zero Gravitas]

25. not necessarily

Obviously anyone who would vote for Nader would rather see Bush remain in power than see a Democrat in the White House (or is simply delusional.) Now I can't explain the psychology between voting for a surrogate like Nader instead of voting for the real thing, but it seems clear to me that anyone who would vote for Nader in 2004 is, for what ever reason, a closet Bush supporter.

[Gman]

3. No!

Not under any circumstances whatsoever.

[terryg11]

4. sure, its a free country

your friend can vote for whomever he wants.

[ulysses]

5. for my money,

no. I see no positive reason to consider it this year (supporting Nader as an independent doesn't even build anything in the way of a third party alternative), much as I find that a complete pain in the ass. But that's me.

We're going to have to keep after whoever wins. My support for Kerry is more characterized by resignation than excitement, but Bush really does have to go.

[Kolesar]

6. Can Another Thread About Nader be Justified?

edit: another

[Ilsa]

7. Remind him that Nader

has done nothing to promote his principles since 2000. Also, Nader could have supported Dennis Kucinich in the primaries, but his ego kept his quiet.
JMO.

[mrgorth]

8. Are you in a swing state?

[BonFiyah]

19. Florida

Miami, Florida

[mrgorth]

27. The answer is that a vote that is not for Kerry, in FL, is a vote for Bush

[aquart]

9. Ask him if he prefers Bush judges to Kerry judges.

Ask him who he wants appointing judges to the Supreme Court.

Ask him if he thinks utopia is possible in the next four years.

Who will staunch our bleeding wounds, Kerry or Bush? This isn't an election, it's triage.

Does your friend believe we can survive four more years of Bush? Remind him that foreign governments are refusing to buy our treasury bonds.

This isn't an election for the fine points. Believe me, we won't be getting anything we want. This is about stopping BushCo from raping our resources and people.

I take your friend is secure in his job? His pension is intact? Remind him that other Americans aren't so lucky, and four more years of Bush may well kill them. Is he willing to have that blood on his hands?

[sadiesworld]

10. No. Unless he is willing to look in the mirror the day after Bush wins

the election and say, "I helped".

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. Welcome. Tell your friend

to vote for Kerry but to work for election reform at the same time.

[BradCKY]

12. Well

Its about as justified as your friend voting for Bush.

[Jacobin]

13. Tell him to hold his nose and vote Kerry

That's what I'm doing.

Its important.......extremely incredibly important.

[BeyondGeography]

14. What's the point? To send a message?

If Kerry's not liberal enough, then ask your friend why the Republicans primary strategy will be to paint him as a weak-kneed Massachusetts liberal.

If he thinks a vote for Nader will be an effective message, ask to whom this message is to be sent? The Democratic party? Again, if we lose, it'll be because we ran someone who was perceived as too liberal, soft on defense and soft on terror.

We live in a brutal country, and it's been that way for about 400 years. Ralph Nader, as a consumer activist, served as an effective check on the system. He will never be allowed to run the system. Where's the historical precedent? What sort of delusional thinker believes that the Democrats can ever move far enough to the left to accomodate Nader and still win the majority of all the votes?

Kerry is far to the left of Bush. If that's not enough for your friend and his gang of 8, they can vote however the fuck they want. But they should have some sense of the hopeless nature of their fantasies, should they ever desire to understand what country they're living in.

[BradCKY]

17. Exactly

Besides primaries are for picking the best candidate for your party. Since Kerry won the primaries its either him or Bush. I just hope more people have gotten that message.

[Webster Green]

15. If the chimp wins, Nader voters won't be too popular....

Especially with their fellow confinees in the "re-education" camps.

[Kolesar]

16. "he doesn't trust Kerry. "

It is Bush's integrity that needs to be questioned.

"welcome to DU"

[skypilot]

23. Oh God!

I had to check your profile to see if you were from my town and talking about someone I know. Just this past Sunday a guy I know who is reasonably intelligent and well-informed told me that there was no way he'd vote for Kerry. Not only is he voting for Nader but he's going to campaign for Nader. He claims that he's not taking any votes away from Kerry because he was never going to vote for Kerry anyway. I wanted to ask him about the people he planned on campaigning to but at this point I was so disgusted I could barely look at him. One of my coworkers described him perfectly. She says he's one of those "dumb smart people".

[BonFiyah]

24. Dumb Smart People

You can engage in the most heated debates with them, only to find you have changed nothing. This is one of two of whom I have to deal with, and this one is the more sane of the two. You dont want to even deal with the other... I think he is making me loose my hair. But they have helped in making me more capable of debating with other people who are not as smart but more importantly not as dumb.

[BillZBubb]

26. Sadly, your friend is a liar

He doesn't REALLY want Bush* out. The only possible way to get Bush* out is to elect Kerry--period. The "I don't trust Kerry" is a fudge. What, he trusts "Mr. WMD" Bush*?

A vote for anyone but Kerry is a vote for Bush*--unless you are in the blue-ist of blue states.

[info being]

28. It's better than not voting