In my opinion, Kerry won the debate last night....

[kentuck]

Because Kucinich and Dean damaged each other somewhat and at the end when the photos were being taken for news stories, photo ops, etc, John F Kerry had one arm around Al Sharpton, patting him on the back, and the other arm around John Sweeny, indicating he was friendly to the union leader and unions in general. Besides that, he was the tallest man on the stage. :) Kerry won the debate, in my opinion.

[CWebster]

1. Ah yes, the tallest, with his arm around the black man

The reason he was the winner again?

[kentuck]

4. unfortunately perhaps....

But those are factors in many people's eyes, in my opinion. It doesn't hurt to show that you are on the side of black people or unions. Nothing wrong with that. By the way, Gephardt was on his way to do the same but Kerry beat him to it. (Gephardt was just to the left of Sweeny) :) That's politics.

[blm]

12. It matters to Sharpton...

that's why he always points to he and Kerry being the only ones who spent time in jail for their beliefs.

Kerry also advocated for legislation that helped folks who had served time get back their right to vote.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

15. Damn Kerry is smart

he is making the overtures exactly where he needs to. And it's not just politics, it's sincere, as shown by Sharpton's testament.

[tpub]

19. yes, we need to counter the Bush photo-ops

with photos of our own, that actually mean something

[CWebster]

24. It's the artificiality of Kerry -

the photo with Lennon at an anti-war rally to show what a hep cat he was for the anti-war crowd, the photo with Kennedy and the references to his initials - JFK, his constant name-dropping about 'Nam, to show what a macho tough guy he is on security, although he was supposed to have protested the Viet Nam war, and now he slaps Sharpton's back while he is on record dismissing the 2000 election and shrugging off the disenfranchisement of Afro-Americans. He doesn't connect well with the common man and is awkward outside of his social-economic milieu.

He is all image and he shrinks from his liberalism when he fears the political fallout, rather than fighting the good fight for what he should represent with pride.

[tpub]

35. OK, I'll bite this time

You're obviously here to smear Kerry.

Yes, he was with Lennon at an anti-war rally and there is a picture to prove it. What's your problem with that?

John Kerry is known as "John Kerry" not "John F. Kerry" or "John Forbes Kerry" or "JFK." You're the one calling attention to it.

"supposed to have protested the Viet Nam war" -- so you don't believe he did?

[CWebster]

38. What?

He protested the Viet Nam war when the photo with Lennon was taken, not when he voted right down the line to back Smirk.

So, he is intending to capitalize today on who he was 30 years ago. I don't know what John Lennon would think if he were alive today, but if he would be anything like he was the day he was shot, he might not be pleased that Kerry uses that picture for PR after voting for Iraq.

"The second hint occurred at the celebration party you organized for us 'doghunters\'" at your friend John Martilla's Beacon Hill house in Boston in late June 1985, 6 months into your term as a junior Senator. In the wee hours of the morning, you made two comments that troubled me: (1) you stressed your initials as "JFK" that would help you one day in your quest for the White House, and (2) that after War Department briefings (and perhaps CIA as well) about the need for funding and training contra terrorists in Afghanistan and Nicaragua you had a new appreciation for their importance in furthering U.S. policies. That did not mean that you necesaarily voted for Contra aid but that once in power, information becomes part of an elite circle preempting genuine democracy. I had driven in from Greenfield for that celebration party, and after those remarks I immediately left the party and drove the two hours home. I never forgot it, obviously."

http://www.counterpunch.org/willson1015.html

[tpub]

45. What?

My message was very clear. What does your "what?" refer to.

You are the one bringing up the photo. Last night Kerry brought up his war experience to show that he has some and Dumya does not. Kerry is planning on winning this election and kicking Dumya out of office. Of course he's going to bring up this type of thing that is going to get Veterans and others to look at him. He's not ashamed of his background, unlike some people we know.

[CWebster]

46. SO FUCKING WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

for every parent who has lost a child, for every young life snuffed out before it had a chance to live, for all the brutality, the horror, the rape, the mutilation, the fear, the ugliness, the deprivation, the cruelty, the destruction, the sorrow, the suffering...


YOU DON"T GET IT ! There is NO GLORY IN THIS! There is nothing to brag about! It is shame...it is shame. If anything, he should be saying, as one who has survived the horror of an unjust war, witnessed the suffering first hand, I am here to tell you that my conscious will never allow me to vote in favor of this folly.

[Frederic Bastiat]

47. Yawn

Cut and paste much?

[CWebster]

48. ?

You have a point?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

60. Yeah he has a point.

Yeah he has a point. The point is that you just cut and paste the same catchphrases, one-liners and soundbites into every thread instead of actually discussing the issues and candidates like an adult, thinking person.

Do you need it explained again, more clearly?

[CWebster]

62. Like that was anything more than a

personal attack.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

72. You asked if he had a point. I answered.

You asked if he had a point. I answered. Because you asked for it. That was his point. Do you get it now?

[tpub]

49. Wow, thanks! For a few minutes there

I was thinking you might be a person I could have a reasonable discussion with. My mistake.

[CWebster]

51. Yeah, tough guy

Why don't you tell me how war makes boys into such heros?

When veterans number among the homeless, addicted to drugs, alcohol abuse, divorce... When young soldiers express disgust with the mission and ask for Rumsfeld's resignation...

You know nothing... cocky young fools impressed by a man in a uniform like Tweety Matthews, who seems to suffer shame and embarrassment that he was in the Peace Corps rather than reveling in the glory of napalmed swamps. Once I heard Tweety mention that he couldn't understand why so many vets didn't want to talk about their experiences. Maybe it is those same men, humbled by the experience, that are apalled at the sight of anyone strutting about, bragging like their participation in war made them the biggest cock on the block.

[tpub]

79. now, I assume you're speaking to Kerry and not me

b/c I'm no "guy"

as for the rest of your post, you're just rambling.

You obviously have passionate anti-war feelings, and I hope you are out there using them somewhere in a more productive manner.

see ya

[Feanorcurufinwe]

36. You seem to be having trouble seperating image, reality, and your own spin

You seem to be having trouble seperating image, reality, and your own spin. Kerry wasn't 'supposed to have protested the Viet Nam war' he was a leader in the anti-war movement. Reality not image.

"shrinks from his liberalism" - you are simultaneously saying he is liberal and he isn't. Going behind the spin it looks like what it really means is that Kerry has a 30-year record as a true liberal and in that 30 years he did some things you disagree with. It is a lot easier to say all the right things in a campaign than it is to do all the right things as a Senator.

Trying to spin away his wartime heroism both in uniform in Vietnam and out of uniform protesting Vietnam seems pointless to me. Anyone with any politcal sense can see that these things are positives not negatives. What does your candidate have to match it?

[CWebster]

44. Oh, sorry

He was a leader in the anti-war movement. Well, he ain't now.


That's right, Kerry simultaneously tries to play all possible sides at once.

Good, you picked that up. ;-)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

59. You avoided the question.

You avoided the question. Here it is again:

"Trying to spin away his wartime heroism both in uniform in Vietnam and out of uniform protesting Vietnam seems pointless to me. Anyone with any political sense can see that these things are positives not negatives. What does your candidate have to match it?"

[CWebster]

66. No I didn't

You didn't get it.

Does he protest unjust wars or does he support them? Or does it depend on which way the tide is turning at a given political moment? Have to hand it to Kerry though he tries to move in both directions at once--which leaves him standing still.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

74. One more time

One more time avoided the question. Here it is again:

"Trying to spin away his wartime heroism both in uniform in Vietnam and out of uniform protesting Vietnam seems pointless to me. Anyone with any political sense can see that these things are positives not negatives. What does your candidate have to match it?"


Hint: in order to answer the question "What does your candidate have to match it?" - you'll have to actually say something about your candidate. lol

[Feanorcurufinwe]

64. Sorry?

Sorry? Are you sorry because you were uninformed, and didn't know, or because you did know and were purposely deceptive? Which is it that your are apologizing for?

[CWebster]

69. Ahhh that he didn't simply protest, but was a leader

of the protests.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

76. So it is for being uninformed that you are apologising?

So it is for being uninformed that you are apologising? OK

[Terwilliger]

65. Why isn't Kerry winning in the polls?

He's a war-hero...long service to the House and Senate...long standing in the Democratic party...

He's like...third? Fourth in major polls?? People still think Graham and/or Clark are the only people to go up against Bush...why is that?

And his explanation of his war res. vote is ludicrous unless he can admit that he trusted George Bush because, implicitly or ex, he's the President of the United States and should be given deference to make decisions. Maybe Kerry could run on that platform, eh? "I support George W. Bush...vote for me!" :nuke:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

78. What poll are you looking at?

What poll are you looking at? 3rd or 4th? I must've missed that one. Of course the national polls are totally meaningless for the primaries. But it seems like the rhetorical question in your post title is based on a false premise anyway. Could you please point to a poll in which Kerry is 3rd or 4th? Thank you.

[chadm]

2. Good to see you care about the issues.

.

[quinnox]

3. Kerry did well,

he had a problem with his voice though. I saw that at the end too, Kerry with his arm around Sharpton was a nice picture.

[West Coast Democrat]

14. I agree, the hoarse voice didn't help Kerry at all

I hope this doesn't happen to him often, or it will make a bad impression during future debates.

[quinnox]

17. It happened once before in a different forum

a few months ago. It is not a good thing to sound sick like this, I hope Kerry can get a doctor to help him with his voice.

[West Coast Democrat]

26. That's Worrisome for Kerry

a weak voice does not convey strength, and as the "defense" candidate Kerry needs to look strong.

[kentuck]

31. Clinton had problems with his voice also...

As I recollect? And it was worse than Kerry's...

[Ripley]

5. First of all it was not a debate.

There was no specified rebuttal time.

Second, what exactly did Dean do to "damage" Kucinich? And yes, DK did attack Dean's stance at least twice, but how did that "damage" him?

They all shook hands with Sweeny and each other (well, I don't know if anyone shook hands with Lieberman) at the end. And frankly, is this why Kerry won the debate ....his physical appearance, not his words?

I think everyone did well (except Lieberman). Graham's "Pinnochio President" was great, Braun's comment about "Halliburton listed as a small business" was great, Edwards made a connection with people. Sharpton always speaks the truth that the others are afraid to. Gephardt seems to have the union vote due to his record.

Dean and Kerry both came off well, I think.

[Pastiche423]

6. Kerry did well because

he got his pitcher took w/his arm around Sharpton?

lol

Uh huh

I want a man that will put his arm around another candidate for a great photo op! That shows he..........uh......er........ knows how to take great photo ops?

Nevahmind he voted for the slaughter and still defends it. He put his arm around Sharpton and got his pitcher took!

:eyes:

[kentuck]

7. It was pretty even match overall but...

it is the small intangibles that can make a difference. Yes, he got his picture (pitcher) taken with Sharpton and Sweeny but I agree it is not as noteworthy as say, landing on an aircraft carrier, but still nothing to scoff at... :)

[Pastiche423]

41. Of course having

a photograph taken w/Sharpton and Sweeney can be scoffed at! It's called politics. He knows he is losing momentum, yet instead of fighting for We, the People (and acting like he shouldn't have to fight - the presidency should be handed to him) posing for a photo op gets him points?

How very weak and superficial.

An arm around anyone does not negate the arms (and legs) he voted to have slaughtered.

Do you know how many amputees his vote created?

[kentuck]

43. If you and I were the only ones voting in the primary....

your post would make a lot more sense but getting the most votes in the primary requires just that type of "politics"...Bush has no substance whatsoever, and as Krugman pointed out yesterday, everything is political. Kerry is smart to recognize the superficiality of the voters - that doesn't mean he approves of it - just that he recognizes the reality of it.

[jpgray]

8. I wouldn't say he "won", but crowd responded very well (nt)

[Terwilliger]

9. really weak, kentuck

any honest analysis dictates that Sharpton won the "debate" (it was a forum, not a debate)

Kerry came off like he usually does...a smart, intelligent tree-stump...about as much vigor as a turtle on prozac...

Something is really missing from John Kerry and I hope he figures out what it is before he becomes the choice for the Democratic party.

[jpgray]

13. Took you longer than I thought it would.

I'll give you a list of all vaguely positive Kerry posts to reply to if you want to save time.

;-)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

16. LOL! nt

[sangha]

32. LOL!!

I'm so glad to see a fellow DUer who is concerned with efficiency.

ROFL!!!

[Terwilliger]

33. I know you cant handle this jp, but your Democrats are...

inviting Hitler to come to power once again and throw the ____ in the gas chambers.

You're responsible.

[sangha]

37. He's responsible, but on the other hand

he's willing to make amends by pointing out the "vaguely positive Kerry posts"

[Feanorcurufinwe]

39. Anyone who does not agree with you is a Nazi?

Anyone who does not agree with you is a Nazi?

lol

[jpgray]

40. If we enabled, we'd at least get media coverage. But seriously--

There is a fundamental difference between what Democrats and the Republicans will do. If there is an economic disaster, the Republican reaction will be far more likely to degenerate into fascism. As long as that's the case, it's Democrat for me. More than that, we have some Democrats who, for various reasons, have a fundamental hostility towards the path leading us into that social disaster. Kerry is far from ideal as anyone can tell you, but he is one of the three best in the race. He would reverse some Bush damage and slow the bleeding, and that's as much as one could say for any Democratic candidate, with the possible exception of Kucinich. I wish we had better candidates, but out of the hand we're dealt here, I can't see how Kerry wouldn't be among the top choices.

[Woodstock]

20. Vitality?

Put him next to Bush, and people will fall for Bush all over again.

There is that certain something - vitality? - that he lacks - that ability to engage the masses (the ability that, unfortunately, Bush possesses.)

Hey, if we can talk about tallness like it matters, why not talk about such things as this?

A big reason I think Dean can win, is that he generates enthusiasm (far more important than being tall.)

[jpgray]

23. Dean IS more exciting, speaking-wise. (nt)

[kentuck]

21. I do agree that Kerry needs to loosen up a bit and not be fearful ...

of making a mistake or pissing somebody off. He just needs to be himself. I think he fears being called a "liberal"... :scared:

[blm]

25. He's a long distance biker, T...

he makes his moves when they benefit his race. Check his earlier campaigns. Weld was the most popular Republican ever in Mass. and Kerry beat him by 8 points.

[Terwilliger]

30. Thats right...he'll lose

he doesn't seem motivated by anything resembling the will of the people. And he will never atone for the war vote. I still dont get how you can support him when it was his job to OPPOSE Resident Bush. I guess his MOVES were dictated by his yellow spine.

[CWebster]

34. While he continues to repeat Gore's mistake

of playing alpha-male games.

[blm]

42. That's what YOU say...

and I think your conclusion is one that only an incomprehensive mind would draw.

Ignore the fate of the UN. Ignore the import of its preservation. Suit yourself.

[Terwilliger]

68. Ignore the fact that Kerry gave Bush carte blanche to ignore the UN

talk about lack of comprehension

[blm]

75. No he didn't.

Bush had his dog and pony show at the UN and he would have met the minimum requirements of ANY resolution.

The important thing is that his efforts and others kept the UN in the loop and preserved their relevance for the future, where BushInc had every intention of dissolving the UN altogether.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

50. If I left something out..........

Long-Distance Biker


Debate Champion

Although he was cut off by the moderator twice for surpassing his time limit. Read: unprepared.

Windsurfer


Cast Signer Extraordinaire


Clown Lover


NHRA Dragster Champion


Astronaut


So-So Pole Vaulter

[Terwilliger]

70. Loser

in 2004 unless he shows everybody why the things you posted above make him a good leader

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

77. Uh, T? I made some of those up.

[babzilla]

67. therefore an expert in drafting

Drafting is an important technique in road racing. Exploratorium Senior Scientist Paul Doherty explained, "The bicyclist, as he moves through the air, produces a turbulent wake behind himself. It makes vortices. The vortices actually make a low pressure area behind the bicyclist and an area of wind that moves along with the bicyclist. If you're a following a bicyclist and can move into the wind behind the front bicyclist, you can gain an advantage. The low pressure moves you forward and the eddies push you forward."

Suprisingly drafting not only helps the bicyclist following the leader, but the lead cyclist gains an advantage as well. Paul explained, "The interesting thing is by filling in her eddy you improve the front person's performance as well. So two people who are drafting can put out less energy than two individuals (who are not drafting) would covering the same distance in the same time." While the lead cyclist gains some advantage in this situation she still needs to expend much more energy than the cyclist who is following.

http://www.exploratorium.edu/cycling/aerodynamics2.html

[realFedUp]

10. I thought we won

along with Chicago.
Nice to see these debates...one of the only forms of
democracy we seem to have left.

[jagguy]

11. have to disagree

I didn't see Edwards or Graham but of the others only Little Dennis and Mosely Braun performed worse. He was stiff and unconvncing. Surprizingly so. Shoot, even Smokin Joe was better.

[Woodstock]

18. Yes, tall means so much - while we are at it, let's go for pretty, too

Edwards is pretty. :eyes:

[kentuck]

22. Now we're looking at the reality of elections !

Tall or pretty? Let me flip a coin....Is that how the majority of Americans vote? I hope not but I'm not so sure... :)

[Woodstock]

29. people are superficial, yes - BUT

not THAT superficial as to go with the best looking or tallest.

Give them someone who is reasonably presentable PLUS puts them at ease and doesn't make them feel like they are being spoken down to and that's better than just tall or just good looking.

[JVS]

55. Gore was taller

[snooper2]

27. We can all agree..

Lieberman came in at dead last...

I even heard boo's at times...

[ibegurpard]

28. Thank god!

I don't think there are too many here who would argue against that.

[JI7]

52. he usually has his arm around people

there are even pictures with his arm around dean.

[Oracle]

53. What bubbleheaded bullshit gossip ...who gives a fuck???

As if that matters.

There is so much to be talked about than "Gee I think my canidate won." Look around at the Bush administration lies and deceit...the attack by Bush quietly on our environment that is devastating...the cuts of benefits to seniors, veterans and children, soldiers being killed every other day, total outright lies about Iraq, 9-11, 2000 election about everything they do...as we find out, just as we suspected, the Bush administration is behind and has "secretly" been helping along and pulling the strings for the California recall...opressing people that are different than them. minorities, gays, womens rights, etc. etc...

But my canidate had a better haircut.

[sujan]

54. lol

[Dover]

56. Surprised Kerry didn't wear his flight suit.......

Did he actually say that if he were voting today he would vote AGAINST Nafta?
Oh really?

And when Kucinich asked him if he'd UNDO Nafta if elected....
he didn't answer. I think that question needs to be directed to Kerry on some future debate venue.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

63. everyone needs to answer that one. nt

[knight_of_the_star]

57. I've heard he DOES have energy for public speaking

I read on article a couple of months back where he blew the roof off of the place he spoke at. When he is relaxed and calm and ready he is incredbile, the problem is that he doesn't relax or loosen up much. That and he does know the importance of the little touches. After the speech I mentioned he hopped on his Harley and drove off to the next event he was speaking at. I've heard Kerry is a VERY good speaker, he just needs to loosen up and he'll be able to match Dean easily. That and there was a little caveat in the war resolution stating that a UN resolution backing US action was needed to go to war, which is probably why Kerry voted for it.

[Pastiche423]

58. "there was a little caveat in the war resolution"

Then why is he still defending the slaughter?

[ThorsteinVeblen]

61. Yawn...

Kerry is completely unelectable.

[dpbrown]

71. Kerry did a good job.

But I really liked Graham's line, "We have a Pinocchio President."

[oasis]

73. "trickle on economics" a good line from Kerry. He did well.

Kerry's detractors with their tired arguments against his candidacy will begin to tail off a bit as he gets more exposre.