My 3rd grader brought a Bible home from school today

[nonconformist]

King James Version, handed out to all of the students in his class (and probably the entire school) by the teacher, but it appears to be a gift from the school's Bible Club.

He attends Public School.

This is a very sticky situation around here. I live in SE Kentucky, right in the Bible Belt. It's a small town, the vast majority vocal Christians... I'm sure you can imagine. I'm not sure what to do, if anything, about this.

For one, it's WRONG. What if they had handed out copies of the Torah? The Koran? A Book of Spells? Overwhelming outrage in the community, that's what would have happened.

If I speak out and do something, I guarantee I will be in the paper and subsequently ostracized from the community. I don't care about myself (although I would prefer not to be harassed), but I DO care about how my children are treated at school (I have another son in preschool, same district). Hence, sticky situation.

Suggestions?

[truthspeaker]

1. give the teacher a copy of the constitution

[AndyP]

4. good idea

then she'll bring up that "it never says the words- separation of church and state" bull. I can't believe that the teacher would do that. I don't think that you should do nothing about it- that's the closest thing to encouragement you can do. I wouldn't make a big deal about it, maybe write a letter to the school principal or teacher or superintendent, but don't do nothing. Good Luck

[radwriter0555]

42. Return it to the school and say thanks, but no thanks.

And that's ALL that needs to be said.

They can draw their own conclusions.

If they press you for a response, tell them you're late for an appointment and have to rush off now!!! Wave, and smile as you head out the door.

[Anjisan]

83. Oh, I disagree

I think you'd be well within your rights to say exactly why you're giving it back.

[Az]

2. Contact ACLU

That is a big no no. Huge. You have a major case there. Go! Call now. Don't waste time talking to us.

[Taverner]

7. Second that!

eom

[lovedems]

11. I agree. eom

[anarchy1999]

15. Call the ACLU ASAP. Consider home schooling.

This is BS!

[Misunderestimator]

24. I would... call ACLU

Is it worth it to have your kids learn that some principles are worth standing up for?

[NuttyFluffers]

70. agree!

think of the beautiful home you can buy from the millions won from the lawsuit? you'd be able to afford to move to somewhere better.

yay, justice and money! yay! lucky you!

[Crunchy Frog]

71. Yes, please contact the ACLU.

This is an intolerable and illegal situation.

[Muddleoftheroad]

74. I agree

[eyesroll]

3. Could you talk to the principal discreetly?

Perhaps ask if they were aware of this -- it's possible this is being done without permission. You could ask what else people are allowed to distribute.

[TahitiNut]

76. I wouldn't bother trying to "talk" with them.

While I'm certainly a proponent of discussion and negotiation, I wouldn't expose myself in this instance. Why? Well...

(1) There's no way the school administration isn't already aware of this. None. The mere fact that it has been done portrays a perspective of "normal" that's so alien they might as well be from another planet where the language isn't the same as mine.

(2) When you step forward, they'll know whom to build a case against - preparing all manner of reasons to say "she's just upset her child did so poorly" or other sabotage. Don't become a target. You're now in enemy territory.

(3) These are almost certainly mostly passive-aggressive people who will say one thing to your face (in order to dispense with any "meeting") and do other things behind your back. (You're now an 'outsider' and 'infidel' ... an 'enemy'.)

(4) This is a front and you are now a combatant in the "culture war" ... and your child is a hostage. Trying to ignore this won't make it go away. Unless you're willing to move to "friendly territory" you're now in the front line.


Contact the ACLU and United for Separation of Church & State. Keep records and start a file of everything - including any and every assessment of your child's performance, every religious 'intrusion', etc. You will be attacked. Have the facts.

As soon as you've contacted ACLU (make sure you get a response!) by registered mail/phone/whatever and USCS, contact the State Board of Education and tell them (anonymously for your own safety) that you intend to pursue remedial actions against the teacher, principal, school, school district, and State Board of Education. Light a fire under their butts.

[Heyo]

5. If it was other students...

And not the teachers handing them out.. it's different.

I guess it depends on who did the giving out. If the teachers did it's a major no-no.

Heyo

[nonconformist]

13. This is what my son says

"The teacher gave the whole class one at the end of the day, I don't know why. She didn't say anything."

His name is written in it (he didn't write it, but it is a child's handwriting) and it says it is presented from the _____ Elementary School Bible Club.

[Lizz612]

26. Bible Club??

Why does the school have a bible club? I can understand a bible club meeting there, but is this a club that is receiving funds from the school? I think this bible club needs to be looked into.

[Az]

30. As long as they allow

after school clubs they have to allow students to setup their own bible clubs. This got a serious challenge locally (IIRC) when a group of atheist studenst setup their own bible study group. They go sent through all sorts of hoops including not being able to find one teacher to sponsor and monitor the group until the science teacher agreed to monitor them via a PA system (no one would stay in the room with them). In the end the only choice they had left was to shut down all the after school programs rather than let the atheists have their study group.

[LeahMira]

94. Do something... but explain to your third grader also!

The teacher gave the whole class one at the end of the day

She probably did that at the request of one of the Bible Club members... perhaps a student, and for whom she simply saw it as a favor? or less disruptive than if the Club members came into the classroom to distribute the Bibles themselves?

Who is in charge of this Bible Club? Some schools are allowed to have Bible Clubs as long as they are voluntary and outside school hours. Perhaps they only use the school building for meetings? Maybe this was their idea of saying thanks to the school?

I agree that probably the best thing to do is to simply return the Bible with a polite note stating your reasons. Or, if you really want to make a point and since it's close to the end of the school year, you might have your child give all his classmates a going-away-for-the-summer "remembrance" ... of your choice. I'm sure you could think of some appropriate token.

But your child is only a third-grader and may have to live in school with the consequences of whatever you decide to do. Be sure to explain carefully, and also to get his/her agreement!

[enki23]

102. not if other students were allowed class time to do it

they can hand bibles out in the hallways, or between classes. a teacher allowing class time to pass out bibles is giving tacit approval. period. this is splitting hairs.

[tom_paine]

6. I cannot fully understand your dilemna

not having kids myself.

However, the ONE THING we MUSN'T DO right now is back down from Busehevik Bullies ANYMORE!

Have you not yet learned that for every inch of ground you yield to the Busheviks or the American Taliban they will STEAL THREE!

No lie can be allowed to pass unchalleneged. No bullying can be afford to allow to pass unchalleneged.

Keep your own counsel. Understand and base your decisions upon sound reasoning.

But this is my opinion. At this late date, to back down to a Bushevik on ANYTHING is to politely walk into the Camp Ovens.

Maybe that's an exaggeration, but only time will tell and such things happening in Imperial Amerika are several orders of magnitude more liekly to come to pass than at any time in our lives!

[izzie]

18. For a person who got into all sort of trouble for such things I

understand how you feel but even I got more careful when I had children. I think I would just talk to my daughter. That worked for me and my children. Not one is a racist or far right Christian nuts.

[demnan]

I wouldn't fight it locally

This could backfire on your children and it doesn't sound like they have it easy as it is.

The King James Version of the Bible is reknowned for its poetry. Few people read it for their religion. Those handing it out haven't read it. Perhaps one of your children may one day be a scholar of English literature of the Elizabethan era. If so that bible might come in handy. If it looks nice on a shelf put it there and keep it there.

At least there won't be a test on it, because nobody reads it.

[nonconformist]

14. Well, that's the funny thing

I have several copies of the Bible, including the KJV and a Children's Bible. It's not like the Bible is "banned" from our home or that my children have never been exposed to it. The problem is that my child went to public school today, not Bible School.

[Bertha Venation]

98. THIS is the start of a GREAT statement.

"I have several copies of the Bible, including the KJV and a Children's Bible. It's not like the Bible is "banned" from our home or that my children have never been exposed to it. The problem is that my child went to public school today, not Bible School."

THIS is what you ought to tell the ACLU. I can see a mother saying this before the Supreme Court. "I sent my child to public school that day, your Honors, not Bible School."

[Zolok]

99. In which case...

I'd return the Bible...you've got the book...no doubt everyone in the class owns several copies of the book.
So the only point to this troubling exercise is the exquisite feleing of forcing the book on you...nothing else.
Who is this "bible club" to be teaching your kid about religion anyway....isn't that superceding the parental role?
If you were catholic you could really go apesh*t on the school sans consequence...the RCC uses the Douay version not the edited and revised King James Bible.


Well anyway I don't envy you....wowsers and snake handlers just never ever quit do they?

www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[wellstone_democrat]

92. "few people reade it for their religion?"

Well, I'm in the *middle* of the national "Bible Belt" with every sort of Protestant (and semi-Protestant offshoot) denomination. "Religion" and the "oppression of Christians" in this overwhelmingly Protestant city is a daily issue for even some of us from the old "Mainline" denominations----no meetings are held on Wednesday night, few social events, and no college classes because its "church night." This is a *city* not a small town.

The King James Bible? Wildly popular and often considered "the only true Bible"----here groups hand out small sized copies at fairs and other big public events.

To many of us your statement is true re: its archaic literary style and use but to the people from whom nonconformist's child received one, well their "kin" is living south of there with me and the KJV is absolutely in daily use as a religious authority.

[Renew Deal]

8. Have a meeting with the principal.

Tell him you want to hand out Korans or Torahs to everyone in the class. Make sure the ACLU finds out about it.

[MadAsHell]

9. Try the ACLU or Americans United for the Seperation of Church and State

at www.au.org. They can contact the school without your identity being compromised.

[nonconformist]

17. Thanks for the link

I'll look into that. Call me a coward, but I would prefer that my complaints are anonymous - at least at this time.

[charlie]

22. Not cowardice

I wouldn't upend a 3rd-grader's life over this either.

[Hepburn]

38. ACLU ~ A Great Idea!!

A public school passing out or helping to pass out Bibles, IMO - exactly what the ACLU is all about! When I read your post, that really surprised me that anyone would send their kid to school to do this AND that a teacher would help!

GOOD LUCK!!! :hi:

[truthspeaker]

10. give the teacher a copy of the Book of Mormon

on the inside cover right "Now you know how I feel. The establishment clause protects ALL of us."

But she probably won't get it.

[Az]

12. Ask if you can distribute

the Queen Jane's Bible. Google it for those that do not know about it. Trust me. There is no way they would let anyone distribute that little book in a public school.

[MissB]

16. *snort*

I still think she's better off by calling the ACLU, but your suggestion had me laughing.

[revcarol]

29. What else do they distribute?

Condoms?
Porn?
Pictures of Bush?
Tickets to X-rated films?
The Book of Mormon?
The Koran?

The WHOLE SCHOOL POLICY needs to be examined. Let an attorney do it anonymously if you cannot get the ACLU involved.

[catzies]

20. Sounds interesting. Added to my reading list. Thanks for the tip.

n/t

[charlie]

34. Whoa...

Check out this little... ahem... nugget from the book's author:

"Shortly after I began Genesis in 1989 I learned that men in the ancient Middle East routinely swore oaths and pledged allegiances by grasping the testicles of the man to whom the oath was made," he writes. "Our words 'testimony' and 'testament' are derived from that, and one of my sources claims that the custom is still found among primitive nomads in desert regions today."

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/02.04.99/slices-9905.html

Don't know if I'm richer for it, but I learned something new today. Thanks :)

[Az]

35. Then ponder where the word fundimentalist came from

Go look up the word Fundiment for a start.

[charlie]

36. Hee

I test my bath before I sit,
And I'm always moved to wonderment
That what chills the finger not a bit
Is so frigid upon the fundament.

--Ogden Nash

:thumbsup:

[loudsue]

51. Fundament

Main Entry: fun·da·ment
Pronunciation: 'f&n-d&-m&nt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French fondement, from Latin fundamentum, from fundare to found, from fundus
Date: 13th century
1 : an underlying ground, theory, or principle
2 a : BUTTOCKS b : ANUS
3 : the part of a land surface that has not been altered by human activities

Pronunciation Key

© 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
Merriam-Webster Privacy Policy

:shrug:Sounds like fundies to me.:shrug:

:kick:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

72. and, so what are you implying, Az?

Me thinks I do not like the implication of your post...but since I respect what you have to say in just about every other case, I would love to hear what you mean by pointing people to the root of the word fundamental...

theProdigal

[Az]

89. That would be humor

More at the oddities of our language than the character of the individuals.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

101. bless you for a smile

I surely could use it today

David

[Steely_Dan]

19. Tough One - But...

Yeah, this is pretty tough. I will have to vote for confronting the teacher, the school and the school board.

Here is my reasoning:
First of all, you are doing the right thing. The separation of church and state is being challenged everywhere. It's time to take a stand for what you believe is right.

Secondly, you would be setting a great example for your children. They will see in you someone who has the courage of their convictions.

There is no higher honor than to be regarded as one who has this kind of courage.

I know that it is hard. However, all things that are worth having or achieving are hard.

Finally, it is easy for me to encourage you from two thousand miles away. I'm not the one who has to make this decision.

However, when my children were in elementary school, I had a similar situation with the DARE program. I stood my ground and paid a price. But my children see me as someone who understands that fighting for your beliefs is not only honorable and your right, but it is your obligation.

-Paige

[ursacorwin]

32. don't waste your time with anyone,

because this is nothing they can get in trouble for. the teacher only has to say, "ms. smith is the homeroom teacher for the bible club, so i had to pass them out in my class for her group. we couldn't expect little children to walk up and down the halls with a stack of heavy books, now could we?" or something to that effect.

i got bibles all the time in elem. school. some group or another, always on school time & property while teacher watched approvingly. no biggie, i suspect it's the same all over rural america. the only way to fight this is to teach your child the truth, and teach them to think about books for themselves. and to have courage, enough to say publicly, "no, thank you." armed with the right facts, your child could start constructive debates with other children, and get them to think too.

we can't fight religion, we've got to get along with these people somehow like it or not. pagans like me make up, what? .5% of the population? they hate me enough already, and i'd rather debate them and embarass them than fight them in court.

save the ACLU for the big cases, and its resources (and yours) for projects that will make a difference.

[BaltoLefty]

21. Have a conference with the principal or the teacher

and request that they distribute copies of the Bill of Rights to everyone who received a bible. Or ask if you can do so. It's only a page long, so copying costs shouldn't be too outrageous.

[hippiegranny]

23. ACLU

it's the best advice given so far, and I add my voice to the chorus.

[stellanoir]

25. I agree with the ACLU option. . .

but just for fun. . .imagined distributing "The Tibetan Book of the Dead" to all the kids just for the sake of equality. The Bible belt would love it I swear.

[trumad]

27. See you on 60 minutes in about 3 months..

;-)

[duvinnie]

28. seeing

where you live, I would advise a low profile approach. Why
do something that will mostly end up hurting you and your family?

For one, have a conversation with your kids - they
may be the only ones at your school that take away some
positives about diversity and cultural tolerance from this
whole episode.

[IronLionZion]

31. this is a common occurence

I got one too. Hey it's just a Bible! Your boy doesn't have to take it and he doesn't have to read it or believe it.

[opiate69]

61. That's not the point...

Can I go to my son's school and hand out copies of Playboy? "It's just a magazine.. they don't have to take it, and they don't have to read it".

[Cleita]

33. Send the bible back with a note.

Tell them that as a parent, you are responsible for your children's religious education. Tell them that in future, you hope that your child's public school education will stick to the basic three "R's" and that the school administrators may need to review the separation of school and state provision in the Constitution.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

37. First, Contact the ACLU. Second, What if you are NOT a Protestant???

Catholics have a different Bible as do the Orthodox.

[Az]

39. There are a slew

of Bibles running around out there. Not just Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox. Not to mention the Jews, and Muslems, and Atheists, and Buddhists, and Taoists, and Wiccans, and ...well you get the picture.

[Anjisan]

40. What if?

What if they had handed out copies of the Torah? The Koran? A Book of Spells?

What if they did? Neither the Torah, the Koran, the Bible or a book from Wicca would hurt anyone. If you don't like the bible, toss it in the trash.

[Az]

43. But they didn't

They selected one particular religious tome and an authority figure representing the United States of America handed it out to children. That is a violation of the first ammendment in that it is an attempt to indoctrinate children into a particular religion. If they had handed out tomes from numerous and varied beliefs they may have a leg to stand on. But what this teacher did will cost them their job at the very least.

[Anjisan]

82. That's not what's said in the post.

The post said the bibles came from the school bible club. Using that reasoning, a Jewish club, a Muslim club or a Wiccan club or a Young Democrats Club could do the same thing. Now, if someone said that none of THOSE organizations could pass out literature but the bible club could, then you might have a point.

BTW, it is NOT a violation of the first amendment. Giving out bibles has nothing to do with Congress establishing a religion.

[nonconformist]

44. It's not about whether or not I like the bible

It's about that my child goes to public school. Not a private religious school. He didn't go to church or bible school this morning. He went to public school, and this is WRONG.

I'm still weighing my options, but I wanted to make it clear WHY it's wrong.

[2Design]

59. gift from bible club????

You mention that it says it is a gift from the bible club? Did your child have to go to the club to get the book?

This is not something that should be handed out at school randomly but they could see it as just a gift.......and when you say something....they can get that freeper like behavior that is nasty, beligerent, and accusatory......

so pick your battle to win the war....just calling these other organizations and getting more facts will help you in your decision.

You don't have to act today. You can decide you need more information and then act on that first. You can set a limit on gathering information before acting. Acting can be doing nothing but there are consequences to any action or inaction you take.

Right now you need more information on your rights. Then pray. And let the answer come from within. God can guide you. When you have enough information to make an informed decision, listen. Then act.

[ihaveaquestion]

41. I raised my kids in a similar town and ran up against the administration

quite often about things like this. I wish I knew then what I'm going to tell you now....

I strongly recommend calmly talking to the principal and teacher together and letting them know your views. You are as entitled to them as they are to their views and since you are expressing them, you should also make it very clear that if you detect ANY negative treatment or harrassment of your child from school officials, students or their parents over this issue that you will hold them personnally responsible, because the information could only have come from them. They are legally required to keep your conversation confidential in that disclosing it could bring consequenses to you and your family.

I know it sounds harsh, but you have to let them know that there are real consequenses to their "innocent" actions.

Good Luck.

[markus]

47. Best. Advice. Ever.

Don't soft peddle it to the teacher and principal. Make it clear that 1) you disapprove, 2) you expect it to never happen again and 3) if they disclose this professional confidence, your lawyer will have the gold fillings out of their teeth.

If they do it again, you should ask to distribute you own works of literature. I'll personally help you raise the money to buy enough copies of Catcher in the Rye to go around, just to watch Fundy heads explode.

[MissMarple]

45. Sometimes it is best to insulate the kids with knowledge and perspective.

"That's nice, dear." And use it as a low key learning opportunity in diversity. I wouldn't teach disrespect for others of any religion, belief or non-religion, just a healthy understanding about religions in general. "Some folks just care so much about having others believe as they do,...but we don't do that" kind of thing.

My kids are iconoclasts. I have no idea where they picked that up.

:evilgrin:

[sandnsea]

46. By the teacher??

I've had Good News Clubs hand them out to my kids after school, out front. But I've NEVER had a teacher do that. And I've lived in Montana, so it isn't like I've been in liberal land all my life. That is so wrong. I cannot even believe this is happening in this country. You might be surprised how many parents agree with you. Try your local Democratic Club, you do have one don't you? See if you can get some support there, get some names of like-minded parents, and try to get a group together so you aren't alone. I understand the whole ostracized thing, especially the repercussions to the kids. Just unbelievable.

[nonconformist]

48. I've made a decision

I'm going to talk with my son about it. We already discuss politics with him some, so this is a good opening to talk about things like separation of church and state.

I've also decided to just write down all of the particulars about this in case I need it in the future. But for now, I don't want to waste the resources of groups like the ACLU, or my own for that matter. However, the minute anything like this happens again I will be meeting with the school board and the principal.

Thanks for all of the advice!

[Stephanie]

50. Forget them, meet with your state senator,or the superintendant of schools

This is a constitutional issue.

[hunter]

65. Actually, despite my, um, advice below...

It is probably best to talk to the teacher. Odds are good they've never had anyone call them on this before, and they will be very uncomfortable.

Heh. What would Jesus do? I mean really...

[Stephanie]

49. Go above their heads. Contact someone at the state level.

Let the hammer come down from above. Think of statewide groups or offices you could contact. Probably they could investigate while leaving you out of it.

[Eureka]

52. Land of the Free huh?

I'm very sorry to hear that speaking your mind in the US will lead to persecution (or, even that you think it will, still bad enough)

[hayu_lol]

73. Passing Out Bibles...

Here in Klamath Falls Oregon, our city schools do not allow such to take place...at least not in the classroom. Afterschool 'voluntary bible clubs' have no problems meeting nor does any other group. Prayer circles around the flagpole before school are allowed. Once into school hours, this all ends.

A few years ago, in the nearby town of Keno Oregon(county schools), the Gidgeons passed out bibles in an elementary classroom(Keno Elementary School). One parent objected strongly. The County School Administration made a big deal out of approving the passing out of bibles during regular school hours and in classrooms. I dont remember if the ACLU got involved, but someone did...and the school system paid a steep fine as a result. The County Schools do not now permit this sort of 'illegal' activity. They got their blue noses chopped off during this process.

Klamath is a hard right Repig area full of wacko fundies. I would suggest calling the ALCU for advice before acting...and you might want to get a local attorney to handle school administrators directly for you. These bible passouts had to have been paid for by someone...elementary kids cannot possibly have the cash to buy them.

Advice: ACLU and attorney first. Then action. It needn't be hostile.

[Az]

78. Stand on a street corner

There you can pass out all the bibles you want. Go to the church of your choice and hand out bibles. You are free to do what you want as long as you do not harm others (with a couple of consential laws as the exception). But if you are employed by the United States Government as a representitive in any way or form you are not free to do what you will while you are on the job.

The teacher is free to hand out bibles on the street corner just like you. The teachre is free to go to the church of their choice and hand out bibles just like you. They are not free to represent the US government by handing out bibles. And that is the difference.

[Guaranteed]

53. I think this issue centers around who handed out these

books. If the teacher did it, you have a solid case. The teacher's influence over the students is enough to be breaking the law, here.

However, if it was a student who was passing out the Bibles, and your child had the opportunity to refuse it, it makes for a tougher situation. It's still possible to make a case that it was illegal because it was on school grounds, and thus was school sponsored, but that is definitely a tougher case to make.

In either case, I say go for it. I think the ACLU would love to take this one up.

[SarahB]

54. Another vote for ACLU

People of all faiths (or no faith) pay taxes and have a right to send their children to school without being subjected to someone's else's religion. This country was founded, in part, on religious freedom. How can we be free when public institutions attempt to guide us into thinking in one particular way?
This is not good.

[gate of the sun]

55. leave the country

it's beginning to reek. Just kidding I'm in a mood about the United States right now. Hey your situation sucks why don't you move west where people are a little more open minded.

[FemaleDemfromMass]

56. Move East

We would never stand for it.

Seriously, make a complaint to the ACLU. This has to be stopped.

[AbbeyRoad]

57. I had a similar experience attending public school

When I was in grade school, back in the eighties, in a very Bible-beltish state that borders Kentucky, they distributed Gideon New Testament pocket size bibles to us almost every year. I still have one or two of them probably in a box somewhere.

I didn't grow up in a particularly religious family. We went to church occassionally. I do remember not feeling completely comfortable with the subject of religion in my class.

I think you've made a wise decision, nonconformist, on how to handle the situation. I can understand you don't want to make it difficult for your kids at school. I know how it can be in a small town.

[pezcore64]

58. As a fellow kentuckian

I suggest you do one of the following:

1) contact the ACLU as mentioned by others in the thread.

2) Contact the Kentucky Education Association, and let them know what teachers are doing in your school system. http://www.kea.org/


like it or not, it was illegal, and the state should be notified if the school will not deal with it themselves.

[hunter]

60. There's a lot of pornography in that Book...

Xerox the best parts, translate them into modern English, add some illustrations, and send them back to the teacher!

[progressivebydesign]

62. The law is clear..

.. a teacher or employee paid by a public school is NOT allowed to do anything beyond basic custodial work during the meeting of a religious club on campus. AND.. the activities of that club are NEVER to be done during instructional hours. This was written spefically toward high schools, but the laws are the same. The teacher was totally wrong in handing these out. She/he is not allowed to do any work for the bible club during school hours (excluding lunch hour).

I do feel your pain.. We just left a bible belt town in California, Atascadero, in which the public school was totally run by the evangelicals in the town. Of course, now we're in an affluent Washington town, where Young Life is the peer-pressure du jour. My poor 12 year old stepdaughter came home one day, after realizing how many of the kids at the new school were "Young Life", she said.. Can we just be Jewish, please? I'm tired of fighting off the Christians at school trying to recruit me! I told her what I tell everyone, we believe personal spirituality, but lean toward Bhuddism. The people usually don't know what to make of it, so they leave us alone.

I do think an anonymous call to the school district office is in order. A polite call.. almost a query about it is your best tact. I did that when we had problems with the employees of the school facilitating the bible club.

[Delano]

63. I'd do one of two things:

A. Throw it in the trash and forget about it.

B. Politely tell the teacher "Thanks, but we are not Christians, and I wasn't aware that the public schools had started prosyletizing. Do you know of any good SECULAR schools I can enroll my son in?"

But that's just me...

[kispoko]

64. that was illegal

for the teacher to have handed them out, and perhaps (but am less certain on this), for them to be handed out in the classroom at all.

my mom is a school secretary and has had to deal with these situations..... they have to leave the books in the office, or some other place, for the students to pick up if they so choose. and the students are made aware of them.

one guy, with these sort of miniature history books with some good information, sprinkled with racist revisionism about some of our history along the way, even tried lying to mom one time about him having authorization to pass them out when he didn't, and she made him leave them in the office anyway..... and these weren't bibles, mind you.


am not going to so say what you *have* to do, but, your son's rights were violated, and just consider how the students who weren't christian (had to be at least a few of them), were made to feel....

those books i just mentioned that the man tried lying to my mother about, contained false history on some of what america did to native people..... being a history buff, and a decent person, that alone was offensive to the senses..... but it only exacerbates things being mixed native as well. there was a native girl at the school my mom told me about one time..... when deciding what to do about these books being passed out, i thought especially about her. and, i thought about all the other things i've had to go through in school like that, and the much worse things from times past..... but i mostly thought about this little girl, given lies about native people so others could hate her, and she could maybe hate herself.....


that's when i called the superintendent.


when you consider all things, the decision becomes clearer.

[uhhuh]

66. Return it...Graded

With notes in red pencil in the margins.

[Mick Knox]

67. Have him read it???

Just kidding. Only if you want too.

By Junior High School; your kid might start bringing home a bunch of worse stuff but probably wont tell you.

I've never seen that happen in public schools; neither with me or my kids. Highly unusual. Move west!

[canetoad]

68. Think carefully.

If your son had brought home say , "An Unabridged Treatise on Quantity Surveying' or 'Analyzing Carpet Burns' you would probably laugh, wonder why on earth he had been given such a book and either toss it in the trash or shove it in a bookcase and forget it.

If the Bible is not your thing, then it's nothing more than a construction of paper, card and glue. A book that you're not interested in and didn't want.

Please consider what I think are the real principles here - the right not to have anyone elses opinion or belief shoved down your throat.

Me? I'd toss it away. Don't make a fuss. Tell the truth if anyone ASKS and forget about it. Much more peaceful that way.

Now, if the bible club decided to make a fuss about me throwing it away....that's another matter.

[nonconformist]

69. SOME CLARIFICATIONS

Easier to do it all in one post, since I'm lazy.

The Bible was handed out in the classroom, by the teacher, to each child in the class.

Inside of the book, my child's name is written (he did not write it, but it does appear to be a child's handwriting) and that it is presented by the _____ Elementary School Bible Club.

The issue is not whether or not I am Christian. The issue is that this violates the Constitution.

We own a few bibles, including a KJV and both a Protestant and Catholic Children's Bible. The bible is not banned from my home, nor are my children banned from learning about it.

I was raised Protestant. My family is now Catholic (long story). My husband was raised Protestant and is still a Christian (doesn't go to church though). I am an agnostic Pagan, I suppose. Ironically, my husband was more upset about this than ME. Despite my beliefs, I don't have a problem with my children learning about Christianity in the RIGHT forum and with my knowledge. They already do. This is not an issue of "we're all atheists and I feel violated that a bible was in my presence". This is an issue of the law, of the Constitution, and of what is right and wrong.

And addressing my post above about my decision - I haven't completely ruled out pursuing this further. I'm weighing the pros and cons, because I do have to think about the impact this could have on all of us if it blows into a huge deal.

Thanks everyone for all of the suggestions and comments.

[LWolf]

75. Plenty of good advice.

Personally, I would go with this:

First stop, a friendly meeting with the principal and teacher. Make an appointment. Go in peacefully, express your concern, and see what the response is. It would be good to know if this was a school sanctioned situtation. Ask the principal to clarify district and site guidelines for passing out materials to kids. Don't go in breathing fire; you'll get more information without putting them on the defense.

Given the response you get, you can decide what next steps to take. That might include nothing, a conversation with the superintendent and/or school board, the ACLU, or some of the other suggestions.

[Bridget Burke]

81. I agree. First, just try talking to them.

The teacher & the principal.

Explain, as you have to us, your concern about constitutional rights. Low key & reasonable--as you certainly appear to be!

Some recommendations on the thread are quite dramatic. Performance art doesn't work well outside the big city!

[leesa]

77. I think I would return it politely and then contact the ACLU to let them

know what's going on in a public school.

I recently received a card from my Fundie brother informing me that five Gideon bibles had been purchased in my name. I asked if I could write an apology in the front of the book disavowing my participation. Christians like this are just constantly ramming it down your throat. Other religions don't behave this why, why do they do this?

[Bonobo]

79. Suggestion: Get the hell out of that town. It's not a healthy environment.

[alcuno]

80. First of all, find out what happened.

Make yourself a large list of questions and go ask them. People want to attack right away when some good questions will do the trick. Why play your hand right away?

[kittykitty]

84. They let everyone out of class-on school time- to attend "Bible Release"-

time. This was in all the elementary schools in a school district in S. Central PA. On Fri. afternoons a school bus would pull up in the parking lot, and everyone in the 5th grade (I don't know about the other grades) would go into the bus and received bible instruction. They also got Popsicles and other treats. My son and one other child did not participate. Sometimes they got to read, or were given some extra work to do. We suspected it was illegal, but didn't protest as we had just moved into this well-armed, fundamentalist rural community.

Also the first PTA meeting we attended opened with a prayer. The program was a film by a minister advocating for religion to help stop children from involvement with drugs and alcohol. We got up and walked out.

[Stuckinthebush]

85. Start a Bhagavd-Gita club

Hand out copies to all the children and see where that leads. Perhaps a confrontation at the School Board meeting will help to quell the distribution of all religious based literature.

[BigMcLargehuge]

86. of a Bertrand Russel Club

and hand out copies of "Why I am not a Christian".

[Stuckinthebush]

91. Ooooo....I like that better!

That is a good book.

[BigMcLargehuge]

95. Yeah, that ones a constant rereader in my house

I keep a copy in the bathroom too, for those leisurely deposits.

[Az]

96. Real world event

I mentioned this in an earlier post in this thread but something very similar happened. A school had allowed a bible study group and a group of atheists decided to create their own bible study group. They were met with every imaginable road block including no teacher would step forward to monitor the group. It was the science teacher that finally agreed to monitor the group but only by using the PA. Once that road block was lifted the only recoarse they had was to cancel all after school events. Which they did.

[Scairp]

87. You may be wrong about the reaction

I was born in that part of the country and it has been my experience that the people there have something of a rebellious spirit. If you say to the school board and/or the principal of the school "does that mean anyone can hand out material on any religion to the children?" they might actually agree with you that handing out Bibles in the classroom is a bad idea and could set a precedent. I may be wrong, but if I were in your shoes I would take the chance of ruffling feathers rather than stay silent about such a blatant violation of the separation edict.

[GiovanniC]

88. Motivation

Handing out Bibles in a public school class is unconstitutional. It's clearly unconstitutional. The teacher in question likely KNEW it is unconstitutional.

So, then, to me the question is: WHY?

Why here? Why in a public school?

Why them? Why are they giving the Bible to these young children?

Why not just pass the Bible out on the street, or in their church, or at the supermarket?

It's about indoctrination. Converting children to your religion at a young age. It's about having a captive audience. And, it's about a teacher who wields the authority of his/her position as an authority figure as leverage to force their religious beliefs on children.

Whatever your views about religion per se are, this is an intolerable practice and should not go unchallenged.

[BigMcLargehuge]

93. it's also about bestowing an air of educational legitamacy to the bible

the environment where the book is handed out gives it de facto equal value with US History, English Lit, or Mathematics text books.

That's why the hand it out in school, to hoodwink the kids who don't have the life experience to distinguish between academic content and religion.

[trogdor]

90. I have a question.

I'm from Louisville, and wound up in central New York State (brrrrrr) because my last duty station in the Army was Fort Drum and my wife already had a job, plus after going back to school, I got hired here. That much I understand. What I don't understand is how somebody reasonably liberal and intelligent winds up in southeastern Kentucky? What's there that keeps you there? I wouldn't move there if somebody paid me double my current salary. No way.

[Iceburg]

97. Saddam is now looking like a saint by most standards ...

Saddam is now looking like a saint by most standards
The "ceasefire/massacre" in Fallujah; the rape and torture of prisoners in Abu Ghraib and other prisons in Iraq. Only "God/Bush" knows whats going on in Guantonamo Bay???

While 50% of Americans sponsor these activities, the other 50% are content to blame "this Administration". At some point we have to ask ourselves -- Is attributing blame really enough?

No one can terrorize a whole nation,

unless we are all his accomplices.

Edward R. Murrow
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




When your feet grow tired from marching, write letters
When your hands grow weary from writing, make phone calls
When your voice goes hoarse from yelling, then start praying.
Please America -- March NOW ... pray later.

The DU Activism/Events forum is sadly the most underutilized board of this website.

[Dems Will Win]

100. I would just give up. Let them turn your child into a fundamentalist

That way, your kid will convert you BEFORE the Rapture while the fundies take over your entire community, even their thoughts.

Better to crawl into your hole and die rather than try to fight for real truth and freedom.

What will you tell your child when they say you will be going to Hell because you are a nonconformist? Just say, that's true, I will be going to Hell.

Nonconformist--Conform!!

Or lose your nonconformity!