Is the US in a state of undeclared Martial Law?

[Q]

martial law

1. Temporary rule by military authorities, imposed on a civilian population especially in time of war or when civil authority has broken down.


- By definition...the US is now (unofficially) in a state of Martial Law and the Constitution has been...for all intents and purposes...suspended by the USA Patriot and other national emergency acts.

- The Bush* government is using their own self-defined 'war on terrorism' to keep this nation on a 'wartime footing' and thus under the auspices of the Pentagon (military). In other words...as long as a 'time of war' exists...our country will be under the complete control of the military and Commander in Chief* Bush*.

- Martial Law has already been established....but with the media on their side they have no need to make an official proclamation. Make no mistake...the Bush* 'military-corporate complex is now in control of our government.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

1. I don't think so...but it's only an Exec. Order away

By definition you may be right. But in the standard sense, i.e., can't go out after dark, we're not there yet.

Moreover, without another big terrorist attack within our borders, I don't think the national mood is up for supporting such foolishness. I think the Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney axis has used its trump cards already, and I think that people are tired of it. And I don't mean just DU'ers and liberal activists.

[Q]

3. You can't define martial law by a 'curfew'...

...because curfews are established to control an unruly population. The media has the masses under control...feeding them a steady diet of fear and patriotism. Thus...there is no need (yet) for that type of population control.

- Perhaps you need to read the fine print? Martial Law CAN be established during a 'time of war' or after a declaration of a state of national emergency...which Bush* has already done by executive order.

- That you don't see overt signs is part of the plan. They don't need to actually declare ML as long as they control the free press.

[Benhurst]

2. I'm afraid you are right.

And I am afraid the 2004 elections will either be fixed or canceled.

[PaDUer]

21. Fixed or cancelled...

I have to agree..wouldn't be the first time they were fixed, would it..If things don't go the way * wants, they're already prepping for the cancellation..put NOTHING past these thugs.

[bryant69]

4. Yeah, but

- We can still largely travel as we like.

- The American people still posess their own firearms (I know most on here don't think that's a good thing, but certainly if you believe the Army is going to oppress us, than having an armed populous makes it more difficult).

- The military is not an active presense in our cities.

- We can express ourselves as we like. This website, for example isn't shut down.

- We have an election next year, and 9 candidates running--Any of whom would be better than President Bush (even Lieberman).

I personally see little value in spinning paranoid tales about military control which sap our energy to elect a Democrat.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Q]

5. bryant69

"We can still largely travel as we like"

- I can't see what traveling has to do with Martial Law. My main point is that the military/CIC Bush* has illegally declared a 'state of war' in order to take control of our government. They've suspended only those rights that get in the way of their agenda...like free speech.

"The American people still posess their own firearms (I know most on here don't think that's a good thing, but certainly if you believe the Army is going to oppress us, than having an armed populous makes it more difficult)."

- A government that controls the military AND the free press doesn't need to physically oppress a population. They can use fear, intimidation and nationalism promoted by the media to achieve the same results.

"The military is not an active presense in our cities."

- And you will not see them in great numbers as long as the media is able to successfully coverup the truth about the state of the union.

"We can express ourselves as we like. This website, for example isn't shut down."

- How can this be the case when the free press in America refuses to tell the truth about the Bush* government? What about the 'first amendment zones'? What about the Bush* government's shock troops that shout down any dissent?

"We have an election next year, and 9 candidates running--Any of whom would be better than President Bush (even Lieberman)."

- So then...you've learned nothing from the 2000 selection?

"I personally see little value in spinning paranoid tales about military control which sap our energy to elect a Democrat."

- And I see even less value in ignoring that which is right in front of your eyes. Have you actually READ the Patriot Act(s)? Do you understand the ramifications of Bush* needlessly pushing us into a 'time of war' and putting us on a permanent wartime footing?

- Bush* says our nation is now at war...which AUTOMATICALLY places the CIC and the military in control of our country.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. Didn't The Patriot Act Pass 98-1

with the votes of liberals like the late Paul Wellstone and Ted Kennedy.

Surely, they didn't endorse legislation that would make serfs out of us.

"What were we supposed to learn from the 2000 election?"

I learned that if you have an election that's so close that it ends up in the courts you better have sympathetic judges.

I learned that if the election wasn't so close we wouldn't have the fine mess we have now.

I also learned that the Electoral College is an anachronism that needs to go the way of limiting the franchise to white male property owners.

[Q]

7. The race was only 'close' because many votes were not counted...

- It wasn't a coincidence that a 'close race' occured in the state controlled by GWB's brother and Florida campaign co-chair.

- But the selection by the SC was only the beginning. As the PNAC document describes...the Bushies needed an event like 'Pearl Harbor' to force this country into war.

- And once the country is in a state of war...the Constitution-Bill of Rights can be suspended as needed for reasons of 'national security' by those in control of the military.

- On edit: a 'time of war' also gives the Bushies the ability to establish 'military tribunals' and detain anyone they declare as a threat to 'national security'.

[bryant69]

8. OK, Q.

Let's say you've convinced me. We are at martial law, and there's nothing legal we can do about it. What's your next step? Should i go around blowing up ROTC buildings? Banks? Army Recruiting offices? Assuming you close all the the doors to legal change, the only ones left are the illegal doors. Revolution.

[Q]

9. Let's say that I haven't convinced you...

...but yet you still can't explain why everything from our economy to our foreign policy is under the control of the 'military/industrial complex?

- For instance...where did the policy of 'preemptive deterrence' come from? It wasn't around before 9-11. It's the policy of the few wealthy CEOs who have circumvented the Constitution and representative government to install their own self-serving agenda.

- As citizens we have very few options left to redress grievances against our government. The free press and congress are the traditional arbitors of the truth. But the obvious problem is that both the media and congress have abdicated their responsibilies to the executive branch. This puts the fate of the country and the world in the hands of a few individuals.

- We can begin by NOT electing compromisers and appeasers to high office. The second difficult task is to return the free press to the people. We can do neither of these things until we insist that truth is more important than winning.

[Q]

10. Do you call THIS free speech?

Published on Saturday, August 9, 2003 by the Toronto Star

GW Bush's America
Americans Pay Price for Speaking Out
Dissenters Face Job Loss, Arrest, Threats But Activists not Stopped by Backlash

by Kathleen Kenna


He's a Vietnam War hero from a proud lineage of warriors who served the United States, so he never expected to be called a traitor. After 39 years in the Marines, including commands in Somalia and Iraq, Gen. Anthony Zinni never imagined he would be tagged "turncoat." The epithets are not from the uniforms but the suits — "senior officers at the Pentagon," the now-retired general says from his home in Williamsburg, Va.

"They want to question my patriotism?" he demands testily.

To question the Iraq war in the U.S. — and individuals from Main St. merchants to Hollywood stars do — is to be branded un-American. Dissent, once an ideal cherished in the U.S. Constitution's First Amendment, now invites media attacks, hate Web sites, threats and job loss. After Zinni challenged the administration's rationale for the Iraq war last fall, he lost his job as President George W. Bush's Middle East peace envoy after 18 months.

"I've been told I will never be used by the White House again."

Across the United States, hundreds of Americans have been arrested for protesting the war. The American Civil Liberties Union has documented more than 300 allegations of wrongful arrest and police brutality from demonstrators at anti-war rallies in Washington and New York. Even the silent, peaceful vigils of Women in Black — held regularly in almost every state — have prompted threats of arrest by American police.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0809-01.htm

[bearfan454]

25. Darn right Q

You know it.

[DifferentDrummer]

12. Websites not "shut down"

Just intensely monitored.

[maha]

11. Not yet

As long as the civilian justice system and state and local governments are running, strictly speaking, it's not martial law. Yet.

[Cocoa]

13. I never see soldiers

including at train stations, airports, govt. buildings.

I guess we've got too many troops in Iraq to leave enough to impose martial law here.

[nolabels]

14. Not yet, I think they expect push the envelope till there are riots and..

such. You are currently watching a slow train wreck, other than get out of the way, most other options are limited. Being prepared and anticipating what in store next are assets they haven't figured out how to take away. I hope for the best, but considering people with the mentality of lizards in control of much, I will be watching and waiting patiently.

[maha]

19. Visit New York City sometime.

Armed national guard on patrol.

[sexybomber]

24. yup.

I was in Penn Station last weekend and I counted six National Guardsmen (armed) in the half-hour it took me to switch trains.

Albany International Airport has armed National Guardsmen too, and it's not that big of a place.

[Q]

26. The military presence will remain subtle...

...until more force is needed.

- But again...there can be a state of 'martial law' without thousands of troops in the streets.

- Our economy is now almost completely dependent on the Military/Corporate complex. And the 'war on terrorism' gives the Bushies free reign to change, alter or suspend laws in the name of national security.

[Clete]

15. What about moves to arm civilians, backed by the NRA,

for their "self protection". Historically, this leads to militias of people all ascribing to the same political view. Anyone else is a criminal, even though it's often not true. I find this situation can lead to many abuses of authority. S.A. or S.S. anyone?

http://www.nraila.org/NewsCenter.asp?FormMode=Detail&ID=2848

[camero]

16. Milosevic did the same thing

It wasn't just the army that committed the genocide but armed militias also. I can see your scenario coming to pass.

[DemBones DemBones]

17. Many people operate under the assumption that martial law

will look in the present as it did in the past. In the same way, we have a picture of what fascism is that we learned from movies. But fascism doesn't require brown shirts or swastikas. Fascism is about government and corporations being close allies, with government disregarding the needs and rights of the populace if they in any way interfere with its support of corporations.

[Clete]

18. True, yet everyone seems to recoil when you say the F word

and that means fascism. The sooner the scales drop from American eyes the easier it will be to reverse the movement before it becomes a road with no return.

[Q]

20. A 'time of war' and declared national emergency...

...already exist in the US. This is why the Bush* regime was able to PUSH and PASS the USA Patriot Act without many (most?) legislators even READING or DEBATING it. I remember reading about it being approved before the final draft was finished.

- Martial Law is not always about curfew and tanks in the streets. Force is used ONLY when the population resists or riots. But after their successful coup in 2000...when they were able to steal an election and get away with it...the Bushies knew they'd have no problem convincing Americans to shut up while they tried out their new strike first warmongering.

- I have to shake my head in sadness as I think about Americans who still think they're 'free'. History...if they took the time to study it...would show that freedom is never free. Over 200 years ago Jefferson warned us that a wealthy few would someday take over our government and monopolize ours and the world's resources for the enrichment of the few.

- The Bushies don't need curfews and tanks in the streets. The American people have become enslaved sheeple that mostly have no inkling of what's going on. Bush* & Company have absolutely no fear that the 'free press' will expose their power plays and usurptions of the Constitution.

[Iverson]

22. essentially yes

It's a kind of shadowy martial law, like a shadow government. However, plenty of freedoms are not entirely curtailed, so it is not the iron-fisted totalitarian martial law that we view as traditional. Call it "friendly fascism."

[Q]

23. "Iron-fisted' isn't needed in a country lulled into submission...

...by a 'patriotic press' willing to be steonographers for the WH.

- The Patriot Acts are unConstitutional and would be called illegal in a country not caught up in the hysteria of nationalism.

- 9-11 was this generation's Pearl Harbor. Our representatives were shocked, intimidated, bought-off and threatened into signing laws that many of them (must have) known would suspend most of the Bill of Rights. History shows us that despots have used this tactic many times to take control of a country.

- And we shouldn't forget that the Bushies are hiding thousands of public documents (that tend to incriminate them) under the auspices of national security during a 'time of war'.

[AllYorBaseRBlong2USA]

27. As far as the military in the cities

thats not really nesseccary anymore. Were you guys paying attention during the WTO riots in Seattle? The police have been trained in "crowd control", there is no need for the military in many places. My dad showed me this great picture of a police "armored vehicle" or tank as I like to call them, parked in front of our Farmers Market with tear gass in the background. All they need are thier battons and rubber bullets and tear gas and tanks and riot shields and the backing of fundamentalist judges. The really disturbing part is that thier desighning more of this crap, like insta-concrete foam guns and shit like that. The military are only there to remind people of terra-ism so people dont toss the shrub out of office.

The combined apathy-ignorence of the average citizen and the willingness of the press to lick our governments balls is what created this situation. People are more worried about matterial gains than the state of the Union.