To All the Posturing, Self-Righteous, Indignant, Knee-Jerking DUers

[NashVegas]

About this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=158409

After tracking down the thread that was in reponse to, apparently, someone had it right, the language police are all over DU lately.

How come it's okay to call the media "whores" but not okay to call a specific person who appears to have sold their soul a "slut"?

To say that DU is filled with misogynists is the biggest bunch of hooey I've seen anywhere. I see guys get rapped on daily - just because it's crouched in more genteel terms than "slut" doesn't mean it's not there. Heck, overall, I'd say the DU population seems very comfortable bashing men, especially straight, white men (btw - I'm not one, I'm a female).

That's just one example I've seen lately of the vitriol coming from dozens of posters who feel free to hijack threads with their hissy fits at offenses regardless whether they are real or imagined.

Grow up.

Not everyone is as perfect as you.

[mistertrickster]

1. Does this really bother you, Crisco?

'Cause it seems kind of a non-issue compared to the Reich-wing take over of our country.

I mean, annoying yes, but flaming indignation? To me, it's a no.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. Posturing, Self-Righteous, Indignant, Knee-Jerking DUer checking in

Language police my ass. Language matters..ask Rush Limbaugh. If you have a rpoblem with the Right Wng takeover of our country then why not a problem with the language they used to do it with?

[NashVegas]

4. Because it Smells Like Diversion

I've seen any number of threads carrying on reasonable, progressive discussions get hijacked in this manner.

And my question hasn't been answered. Why is it okay to brand the media as whores, but not okay to refer to Harris as a slut?

I stand by my statement about DU men, as well. There are 10x as many posts here bashing men than there are glimpses of misogyny.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. Prove it

[KG]

10. heh

don't just love calling out an outrageous assertion? :)

[NashVegas]

13. Please

The two threads that spawned this, alone, contain more grousing directed towards men for their behavior than vice verse.

[Keithpotkin]

27. thats ridiculous

you cant just prove something like that, just take a look in GD. On the first 15 threads at least 3 are hissy fits. (you know what i mean).


saying "prove it" is a stupid response because you know it is impossible, and what crisco said is truthful and cannt be "proven", you can just tell.

[Alenne]

28. That is why we have a search function

If there are really 10 times as many threads bashing men it is easy for her to prove.

[Keithpotkin]

29. so why dont you prove him wrong

if its so easy?

[NashVegas]

30. Hey, I'm a Her, You Sexist Pig!

:P

[Alenne]

31. It is not my job to prove her wrong

I didn't write it and it can't be proven because it isn't the truth.

[Keithpotkin]

36. it is

look at the first page of GD. there are at least 3 threads that would alienate most men are not sexist but are not comfortable with voicing their opinion to an angry all women mob.


What are some examples of men being sexist on this board?

[Eloriel]

24. It's NOT okay to brand the media as whores

But that's allowed here -- encouraged, even. But it's as sexist as the day is long and I despise it. I despise that a lefty site would call itself MediaWHORESOnline. It's sexist.

So your premise is wrong to start with. Try again.

Eloriel

[NashVegas]

32. Okay, There's One

You're the first person I've seen say that. I saw it in one of the other thread, but I think that was you, also, maybe? If not, two.

[cally]

3. Umm...OK

Another way to say that my opinion doesn't matter. Gee, thanks.

Let me guess, feminists have no sense of humor, hate men, are out of touch, and don't understand.

A proud member of the language police because it does matter.

[canuck]

5. yeah, add to that the Psychology police, the Ideology police...

hoo wah if you say anything like:

oh, clinton wasn't so perfect, he bombed afghanistan, and sudan, and Iraq constantly, signed nafta etc..

better duck. (-:

[Alenne]

9. It's been said many times on DU

But if you expect to come here and have your opinions go unchallenged then this is not the board for you. Just because you say it does not mean everyone will agree with you.

[Cheswick2.0]

7. this was not nessesary

there really was no need to post this thread. You may not understand, but you don't get to decide what is meaningful and what is not. If you do not share the opinions of the people who are protesting that is fine, but to dismiss them with "grow up". :shrug:
What is the hidden aggenda here? How does this pertain to you in particular?

[KG]

8. if you'd read NSMA's thread header...

you'd see she never said that 'DU is filled with misogynists'.

she refered to a small group of posters that continuously used sexist/misogynist references in their postings.

methinks thou doth protest too much...

[NashVegas]

11. I Read that and More

A few comments in there:

"some of the misogyny on DU"

"i feel there is a great tolerance for sexism and misogyny."

"There is a problem in our society re misogyny (and the acceptance of it) and it is reflected here."

"I have noticed that this is often a very sexist site. Actually, I was warned by a well-known male DUer at the beginning of my posting here that there were several men who repeatly used negative language about women and seemed to be very misogynistic. "

"since they always seem to find a way to display their misogyny and disdain for women."

"I don't care if you are a eunich, your thoughtless hateful misogynistic speech won't be tolerated anymore."

From those two threads alone, if one believed what they were reading, they'd come away with the opinion that DU is a haven for men who go around bashing women at every chance.

I think that's a load of crap.

[Alenne]

12. Yeah it would

if you are the sort of person who likes to take things out of context.

[NashVegas]

14. You Mean Like

Starting a flamewar because someone calls a political sell-out a "slut" would be taking something out of context?

PS - I'm still waiting for a good reason why it's okay to call the media "whores ... " but not a similar word for Harris.

[Alenne]

15. No

It was not taken out of context because he called the woman a slut.

One of the definitions of whore

A person considered as having compromised principles for personal gain.

Definitions of slut

1a. A woman considered sexually promiscuous. b. A woman prostitute.
2. A slovenly woman; a slattern.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. Didn't we even see slattern the other night

They are getting creative about it now.

[wellstone_democrat]

20. simple and its a cultural linguistics issue

Whore means someone is selling themselves. Currently "media whores" and "political whores" are terms used in progressive and reactionary internet (and print circles) to mean someone who has sold themselves.

Slut is a whole different category---and yes, I know you undoubtedly call all sorts of men "sluts" in everyday life (just to answer what you probably will say while I'm out at dinner). But culturally the term is loaded. Look on that thread and see the excerpt from a print source about sexually available women vs. sexually available men. "Stud" might indicate availability as well as a lack of discrimination but linguistically, in the west, it is a positive virile connotation while the available indiscriminate woman is a "slut" which has connotations not only of sexuality but of uncleaness.

Culturally, the term "slut" for a "political sellout" is imprecise. One who sells is a "whore" or "prostitute." If Harris sells her reputation or morals for political gain )and I think she does) then "whore" is logical as a designature both in terms of cultural linguistics and etymology. "Slut" indicates she is giving it away if we follow the logic of this language use---she's been well paid, she ain't givin' anything away---but slut isn't used that way in the posts of late that are in question, "slut" is used as a simple slur that is gendered and meant to convey a sense of looseness, filth and sexual promiscuity.

Language does matter---that I do analysis of language for political policy formulation makes it matter alot to me, but "Leave no child behind" or "Patriot Act" should convince you it matters too. The thread you reference was not a "flamewar" baited argument but a real attempt to jolt some into reconsidering their choice of language.


I doubt that this answer will satisfy you but, I'm pre-operative and if I don't eat in 15 mins. I won't again for two days. So, I'm chose to eat rather than get more technical on the psycho-dynamics of language or the finer points of the economy of power as displayed in linguistic exchanges.

[NashVegas]

22. Good Luck on the Operation Then

But for the record, there's only been one guy in my life whom I've regularly called a slut.

Rest have been rather sporadic :)

[T Roosevelt]

16. Definitely a difference in the terms

Per Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: slut
Pronunciation: 'sl&t
Function: noun
1 chiefly British : a slovenly woman
2 a : a promiscuous woman; especially : PROSTITUTE b : a saucy girl : MINX

Main Entry: whore
Pronunciation: 'hOr, 'hor, 'hur
Function: noun
1 : a woman who engages in sexual acts for money : PROSTITUTE; also : a promiscuous or immoral woman
2 : a male who engages in sexual acts for money
3 : a venal or unscrupulous person

I definitely agree that whore is generally applicable to the media, politicians, etc, whereas slut is specific to promiscuous woman, and she be reserved for such...

[NashVegas]

19. Let Me See if I have this Right

You're okay with the usage of 'slut' in its literal form, but have a problem with it being used in the metaphorical?

[DagmarK]

18. I watch the male newscasters/pundits some times......

and congressmen......and other right-wingers in the eye of the camera

And there are some ugly fucking trolls that have amazing ratings......

They get called all sorts of names......but somehow I don't hear comments such as:

"Who would screw that ugly bastard?"

"He should put a bag over his face!"

"Prick!"

"He's so ugly I can't believe he is allowed in public!"

When it becomes NATURAL for you guys to just rattle off the same types of SEXIST insults toward the radical right male enemies that seem to just FLOW like water re their female counterparts......then I will conclude that the issue is not misogynistic.

[NashVegas]

21. Speaking of Media Pricks

Here's one from the search mechanism

"that prick Gibson was visibly unhappy at the way his guests were tearing apart the war coverage." (Faux, I assume?)

There are several "pricks" that come up not in reference to the media.

A search of the last two weeks turned up 64 hits with "bastard," while 45 topics turned up on a "bitch" search (16 total pricks if you're interested).

(just noticed the search function is whack, only seems to go back to August 6 or 7.)

[wellstone_democrat]

25. and the sex of the poster who used them?

bastard is a designation (once legal) of parental marital status and was prominently displayed on female birth certificates in Texas, it gravitated to general use as a generally male term as a profanity. One thing....what does matter is the sex of the poster who used the terms. And, finally, it also does matter that the topics of discussion in a political forum generally are predominately about MEN who outnumber women in the public sphere. So, if 100 men call Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, O'Reilly, Hannity, etc. a bastard is it really the same as if women do or show a pattern of sexism about men?

The word under discussion *was* slut which is distinctive. The category which includes : bastard tends also to include a number of words which were , or have become, "genderless" or nearly so----asshole, shit, bastard, son of a bitch, and so on.

[NashVegas]

37. No Idea About Gender, for the Most Part

Generally I don't even notice gender with most posters, unless they make it plain. That may be one of the (side) issues behind all this.

Having lived with my share of both men and women, and seen the difference between women talk amongts themselves and men, too, the only difference, when it turns to the raunchier subjects, is that the guys are just more blunt about it. My first apartment shared with two men was a *major* eye-opener.

So, what shall we do? Make male DUers sign a waiver that they will leave all locker-room talk at the door?

{i]So, if 100 men call Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, O'Reilly, Hannity, etc. a bastard is it really the same as if women do or show a pattern of sexism about men?

Do you think women have never, nor do currently refer to some other women as whores, or even occasionally sluts, if not the more polite, "tramps?" I'd say a guy calling Cheney a bastard is about on par with that.



For the most part, I really don't care, unless you see a post along the lines of "that fucking bitch-cunt-slut" wherein that's the bulk of the message. These are just crotch-grabbers looking for attention and anyone who gives it to them is foolish, IMO.

[Julien Sorel]

33. So do it yourself. As a man, I won't care.

There was a thread where people (of both sexes) were drooling over Wesley Clark. If this was a woman running, and people were commenting about how sexy she was instead of focusing on her stand on the issues, I imagine that would be sexism as well?

[Ress1]

23. Yeah,

groups within groups, there's no escaping the ultimate differences and further splintering. An endless cycle.

[Keithpotkin]

26. crisco... mad props

youre right on.
its a good thing you have 1000+ posts, otherwise you would be banned without an explanation, like many have and will in the future.

people with low counts are raelly discriminated against here.

[DrBB]

34. Ever since Captain Kirk started being called a "space slut"

...I decided that "slut" was becoming a less gender-specific term. Still, it has a ways to go. "Mediawhore" has become an acceptable term, because the sexual denotation of "whore" in this context has been subsumed by the more general connotation of soul-selling corruption. But I don't think "slut" has really lost its primary sense of referring to a person's sexual promiscuity, so it tends to evoke more visceral responses from people. Presumably, evoking a more visceral response was precisely what the poster had in mind, but in that case he or she had better be prepared to deal with what comes, and obviously a lot of sisters on this forum responded to the sexist overtones, which were fair game.

To call Katherine Harris a "slut" is, in any case, not a very effective use of invective, since the point being made (IIRC) had nothing to do with her sexual proclivities. Since invective is the lowest form of wit, being mere abuse without irony, I think one is entitled to require that it at least be deployed accurately.

As a footnote: one might try to cite Dan Akroyd and Jane Curtain as precedent here ("Jane, you ignorant slut"). But it won't wash: that was dramatic irony, not mere invective.

[Wonder]

35. as usual. tactical convolution of an expression of a valid grievance

by further devolution of what was a very good point. CALLING TO TASK SEXIST LANGUAGE AIMED AT DEBASING WOMEN... I guess to a degree that point is just too much to bare ... so why not get squabbling over a convolution by way of turning the tables... fun fun fun....

[NashVegas]

38. I Thought the Aim

was to debase Harris. Why that got construed to be 'all women' is beyond me.

[Shanty Oilish]

39. Some questions

The admins have policy regarding racist and homophobic slurs. Tell me, do you think they shouldn't? Are they language police?

If you think prohibiting racist and homophobic comments is proper, tell me, why do you draw the line at prohibiting sexist slurs?

Do you think they just don't rise to the level? If so, why not?

[Skinner]

40. I'm locking this thread.

And I'm locking the thread that spawned it.

I think we all need a rest from the infighting.

Skinner
DU Admin