God save us from pushy religious assholes

[mopaul]

if you are a good person of faith, and not a pushy religious asshole, i have no truck with you. but i am fed up to here with pushy religious assholes in my family, in my workplace, and in my government.

if someone tries to convert you from your current religion to theirs, they are a pushy religious asshole. if a person or persons try to physically stop you from entering a women's clinic, that person is a pushy religious asshole. if a person states the opinion that america is a judeo/christian nation, that person is surely a pushy religious asshole.

and now, our government if full of these types. beginning with the number one PRA, bush himself. he keeps saying he loves islamists and respects their religion, that's a big lie. he hates muslims, isn't it achingly obvious? he says god is on our side, god bless america, god keep our troops safe, but if there were a god, he'd crush bush like a roach.

in case some have not noticed, our whole nation is being dragged into hell by a whole mess of virulent, insane, arrogant, evil, wicked, deranged, demented, desperate, dangerous pushy religious assholes. god save us from your zeolot devotees.

my mother, who is now a born again, before she went nuts, always told me, 'if you can't say something nice about a person, then that person must be a pushy religious asshole'.

[arwalden]

1. And This Is Why I Have An Engraved "No Christians!" Sign On My Front Door.

Our neighborhood is chock full of pushy fundamentalists and JW's who believe it's their duty to bug me and convert me.

Ever since I put the sign up, I've had NO trouble at all. Too bad we solve our nation's problems and just put up a sign to rid all of the pushy fundamentalists from our government.

-- Allen

[chimpy the poopthrower]

9. Wouldn't it have been better to have a sign saying....

..."no proselytizing"? I won't go so far as to say that a "No Christians" sign is equivalent to a "No Jews" or "No Muslims" sign, because we all know there is a difference -- in reality, if not in theory. Still, it's not really in the Democratic tradition of tolerance is it? I think it's pretty bigoted, actually. Why assume all Christians (and only Christians) would come over only to proselytize? Suppose your next door neighbor is a pastor or priest or just a non-clergy Christian who comes over to share some extra food, bring you mail that was delivered to the wrong address, or some other innocuous reason? How would (s)he feel seeing that sign? What if your mail carrier or a repair person who comes to your home is Christian and is offended by that sign? It's not the same as having a "no Jews" or "No Muslims" sign -- but it's not as far off as you would like to believe, I think.

[arwalden]

14. You "think it's pretty bigoted, actually"? You do? Really?

Okay. It hurts. I'm crushed. But I guess I'll just have to live with being "bigoted, actually".

"Actually" it has nothing to do with making assumtions... it's based on past history, patterns of behavior, and ongoing roaming hoards of bible-thumping testament-giving watchtower-carrying good-news-sharing fundamentalists.

The reason that I "assume" Christians ("and only Christians") come to my door to proselytize because that's what they do. Duh! Do you honestly think I'd bother to spend my own money to tacky-up my front door simply to insult random visitors? NO... I DO THIS THING AND PUT UP A SIGN BECAUSE IT'S A PROBLEM.

>> "Still, it's not really in the Democratic tradition of tolerance is it?" <<

Oh good grief! It's not very "christian" of me either. There's a big difference between the tolerance one normally affords people of other religions in our routine day-to-day existence... and in protecting my privacy and my fucking right to be left the fuck alone?

In your estimation, at what point would it be okay and acceptable for me to exercise my right and protect my privacy? Exactly how much tolerance should I exercise? How much is enough? When does my right to privacy and being left alone in my own house on my own property begin to interfere with their "right" to annoy the fuck out of me?

The demand for "tolerance" is not a trump card that gives anyone the right to disturb me and invade my privacy and trespass on my property. Ain't gonna happen. Not gonna do it.

If anyone is offended, then too bad for them. That's their problem and not mine. Anyone who goes to the front door, doesn't know me. Anyone that I want to see knows to come to the back door.

I don't share your worries that I'm giving proselytizing Jews or Muslims some unfair advantage. If the situation arises where I'm being proselytized by Jews or Muslims... then I'll order another custom sign to address them as well. But as of now, that's not the case.

-- Allen


Oh... to answer your question: I believe that the word "proselytizing" might be a little bit beyond their apparent vocabulary and reading level.

For now it's best to keep it simple. It seems to be working fine. Why mess with a good thing?

[chimpy the poopthrower]

15. So you are a proponent of religious profiling, I see...

It's true that some religions include proselytizing as part of their beliefs, while others don't. Does that mean it is necessary to identify (or misidentify - since not all Christians do this) exactly which religious groups are annoying you? If you had problems with salespeople bothering you, and the last five salespeople who came to your door were black, would you put up a "No Blacks" sign or would a "No Soliciting" or "No Sales" sign be better? Again, I realize it's not a perfect analogy, but the point is that you are unnecessarily creating a hurtful and divisive situation when another solution would work just as well. If you think "proselytizing" is too tricky, you could refer to "witnessing", "spreading the 'Word'" or some other phrase in its place. And I never said anyone had a right to bother you or invade your privacy - that is a strawman. All I was pointing out was that you could accomplish the same thing without going out of your way to offend all members of a very large group, most of whom have not invaded your privacy or injured you in any way.

[SemperEadem]

28. You're missing the point:

He's not having problems with his solutionto this problem. The onus in this situation is on those who are, really, trespassing on his property to invade his privacy and his personal beliefs. It's presumptuous and disrespectful of them to do so. As such, he doesn't owe them any courtesy. They were not invited to his home.

We do not owe sufferage to anyone who just decides to come bother us uninvited.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

47. ChimpyThePoopthrower...

messages like that accomplish very little.

-- Allen

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

54. You Keep Tossing Out Hypotheticals That Aren't Even Realistic Or Likely

Why do you keep making rediculous unrelated comparisons?

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What I had hoped to accomplish was to help you (and others who think like you do)

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How BIG of you to want to help me to see and believe the same way you do. Not interested.

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see how hurtful and unnecessary such a sign is and how such divisive and hateful your anti-Christian attitudes are.

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Yet you fail to address how divisive and hateful your anti-atheist attitudes are and the anti-atheist attitudes of the door-to-door zealots. --- Hmmm. Odd.

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Of course you don't like being called on your bigotry and so you get defensive.

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You may continue to infer that I'm a bigot all you please. Make all the bigotry references you want. As a tool of persuasion, that's very ineffective. I do not care what you think of me. I do not care what the zealot door-to-door christians think of me.

---

If Jews came to your door proselytizing instead of Christians, I'm sure you would still not put up a "No Jews" sign. (Yes, Jews don't proselytize as far as I know - this is a hypothetical situation.) You would care enough to not want to offend people and not look like a bigot. I'll bet you wouldn't worry about the cost of a few extra letters in that situation, would you?

---

You pride yourself in knowing a lot about me... but your pride is misguided and misplaced.

You know nothing of me and everything you've said about me is wrong. Perhaps you had better stop now before you get in too deep.

-- Allen

[chimpy the poopthrower]

67. I was giving you the benefit of doubt.

You are correct that I don't know you. I've seen your posts and I've never seen anything anti-semitic coming from you so I just assumed that you were not the sort of person who would put up a "No Jews" sign. That was the only assumption I made about you and I'm sorry if I assumed too much.

I never addressed your character, only your self-described actions and your expressed attitudes. To put up a "No Christians" sign on your door and to have no concern for the non-proselytizing Christians who may come to your door for legitimate reasons or who may see it just walking past your house strikes me as a bigoted, hateful act and a bigoted, hateful attitude.

But please point out even a single anti-atheist remark I have made in this entire thread or any other. I'll save you some time. You won't find a single one because I've never made one. For all you know, I could be an atheist myself. Just because I defend one group against bigotry doesn't mean that I am necessarily a member of that group myself.

My comparison was not ridiculous; it was completely analogous. If you disagree, please explain how putting up a "No Jews" sign to ward off (hypothetical) proselytizing Jews is so vastly different from putting up a "No Christians" sign to ward off proselytizing Christians. I stand by my opinion that putting up such a sign shows and anti-Christian and therefore bigoted attitude. Meanwhile, you cannot point out a single anti-atheist comment I have made, but I will be amused to see you attempt to find one.

Incidentally, I am puzzled as to why the moderators saw fit to delete my inoffensive post while leaving some others in this thread. Since mypost is contained in its entirety within your post, anyone can see I have not violated DU rules or attacked you personally other than criticizing a specific action you yourself introduced into the discussion and which is, in fact, directly related to the subject at hand. I guess some people make no distinction between rational and relevant criticism and wild, personal attacks, such as referring to a person's "anti-atheist" attitude without offering a speck of evidence.

[arwalden]

69. Oh Good Grief! Here We Go Again!

You were NOT giving me any "benefit of the doubt"... what you were giving me was grief and heaping undeserved scorn upon me. I've had just about all I can stand of this!

---

You are correct that I don't know you. I've seen your posts and I've never seen anything anti-semitic coming from you so I just assumed that you were not the sort of person who would put up a "No Jews" sign. That was the only assumption I made about you and I'm sorry if I assumed too much.

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That's true... Unprovoked, I would not be the sort of person to put up a "No Christians" sign either. But provoked and harassed by either, I have absolutely no hesitation in putting one or the other or both signs up. --- Deal with it.

---

I never addressed your character, only your self-described actions and your expressed attitudes. To put up a "No Christians" sign on your door and to have no concern for the non-proselytizing Christians who may come to your door for legitimate reasons or who may see it just walking past your house strikes me as a bigoted, hateful act and a bigoted, hateful attitude.

---

And that's the trade-off that "innocent" Christians will just have to endure because of the willful actions of their brothers and sisters in Christ.

I do not live my life for the approval of strangers. If non-recruiting Christians walk 100 feet up my driveway and come up the stairs to my front door, and find themselves offended, then they'll have to just deal with it the best way they know how. If they have any intelligence at all, then they will know the EXACT purpose the sign exists.

Chimpy... you're behaving as though NOBODY has any common sense and couldn't figure out what might have prompted me to display a "No Christians" sign. People aren't as dumb as you might imagine. Not EVERYONE in the world is so self-centered as to believe that everything revolves around THEM. That's an absurd and unreasonable way of looking at things.

Also, Chimpy... please don't lose sleep... I do not live on a parade route. There is not busy sidewalk in front of my front door. In fact there is no sidewalk at all along our property. I don't live in an apartment or condo complex. --- You can sleep soundly knowing that my front door is about 100 feet from the street and you cannot even SEE my front door from the street. Innocent passers-by will not be cruelly subjected to my harassing sign.

Feel better now? I certainly hope so. I'd hate to think all your worrying was wasted on me. It's simply not worth it.

But... just so you know... even if I *did* live on a parade route and my front door happened to be right ON the sidewalk so that anyone could read my "No Christians" sign... I still wouldn't take it down.

---

But please point out even a single anti-atheist remark I have made in this entire thread or any other. I'll save you some time. You won't find a single one because I've never made one. For all you know, I could be an atheist myself. Just because I defend one group against bigotry doesn't mean that I am necessarily a member of that group myself.

---

Rediculous. The wording of that makes it appear as though I've accused you of something. I haven't accused you of anything.

You're defending yourself from an imagined attack (that never happened) and anyone reading JUST your absurd message might believe something that wasn't true.

I'll have to go back to re-read and make certain... but I think you'd be VERY hard-pressed to find me saying anything personal about you at all. Any negative comments I may have made would have been towards pushy Christians or intolerant Christianity as a whole. (I'm sure you'll let me know if I'm mistaken... but I don't believe I am.)

---

My comparison was not ridiculous; it was completely analogous. If you disagree, please explain how putting up a "No Jews" sign to ward off (hypothetical) proselytizing Jews is so vastly different from putting up a "No Christians" sign to ward off proselytizing Christians. I stand by my opinion that putting up such a sign shows and anti-Christian and therefore bigoted attitude. Meanwhile, you cannot point out a single anti-atheist comment I have made, but I will be amused to see you attempt to find one.

---

This will be the LAST TIME that I will humor you and address this particular silly comparison. Pay attention. --- Ready? --- Jews don't proselytize door-to-door. If they did (as you keep wanting to pretend they do) then a "No Jews" sign would be just as appropriate, and I would certainly put one up. I know that this fact distresses you... but you'll just have to find a way to live with this simple fact. --- I invite you to read and re-read those last few sentences to your heart's content. Those are my final words on that subject. You may stop hanging your entire argument on that ridiculous comparison.

If you do try to make this same empty argument and comparison again, then I will have NO RESPONSE at all... other than to remind you we've already discussed it and I'll simply invite you to re-read this section (and other previous comments).

Enough already. Let go. Move on!

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Incidentally, I am puzzled as to why the moderators saw fit to delete my inoffensive post while leaving some others in this thread.

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You would need to check with the moderators or administrators to confirm... but I believe that name-calling is prohibited.

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Since mypost is contained in its entirety within your post,

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Even if an entire deleted post had been quoted verbatim in someone's reply, I don't believe that that somehow exempts the original poster from having to follow the rules. --- Again, I'm no expert. You'll need to discuss it with the admins.

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anyone can see I have not violated DU rules or attacked you personally other than criticizing a specific action you yourself introduced into the discussion and which is, in fact, directly related to the subject at hand. I guess some people make no distinction between rational and relevant criticism and wild, personal attacks, such as referring to a person's "anti-atheist" attitude without offering a speck of evidence.

---

That's certainly debatable... but it's definitely an argument you'll have to take up with the moderators or the administrators. I cannot speak for them.

Will there be anything else?

-- Allen

edit: emphasis/clarity

[chimpy the poopthrower]

74. You said to me...

"Yet you fail to address how divisive and hateful your anti-atheist attitudes are and the anti-atheist attitudes of the door-to-door zealots." (bolding mine) That sounds to me like you're accusing me of displaying an anti-atheist attitude, which I have never, ever done here or anywhere.

I never claimed that Jews proselytized door to door. In fact, I was the first one to say that they didn't, as far as I knew. I've been very clear all along that it was a hypothetical scenario -- like saying "what if men got pregnant instead of women". I was merely trying to illustrate the parallels between having a "No Christians" sign and having a "No Jews" sign. Since you've finally revealed that you believe either sign could be justified under certain conditions, the analogy has been rendered useless.

It's too bad that you feel that all members of a very broad and varied religious group should have to suffer for the wrongdoings of others who belong to that group. I happen to disagree with that thinking. I could make another analogy regarding the treatment of Muslims by some Americans after 9/11, but you're so apparently literal I'm afraid you would interpret that as me accusing you of inflicting physical violence on Christians. Or comparing physical violence to an unpleasant sign.

Also, I was not addressing the issue of my posts being deleted toward you. I was merely wondering aloud. I have already addressed that question to the moderators.

I never intended to be pulled into a lengthy debate about your door sign. My original post said all I wanted to say and which I still believe -- that with a little bit of consideration, you could have come up with a sign that was just as effective (perhaps more so since your sign excludes non-Christians who proselytize door to door), more to the point, and which didn't express hostility toward an entire religious group.

[arwalden]

82. I Stand Corrected... I apologize if I offended you.

I misunderstood your unbridled and fervent defense of anti-atheists and their activities as being a some sort of sign that you agree with, encourage and/or approve of their behavior. --- What a silly mistake for me to make!

Obviously, you were defending their behavior and their invasion of my privacy because you DISAGREE with them. Again... silly me.

---

Since you've finally revealed that you believe either sign could be justified under certain conditions,

---

Interesting choice of words. You use the word "revealed" as though I was keeping a secret and have been forced against my will to give up information that I wanted to prevent from coming out.

That's incorrect. If anything has "finally" happened... it's that you "finally" understand that no matter how many times you repeat the same bogus arguments... and no matter how many absurd comparisons you make... I will not agree with you that my sign is not justified.

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the analogy has been rendered useless.

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Whew! Glad that's over with.

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It's too bad that you feel that all members of a very broad and varied religious group should have to suffer for the wrongdoings of others who belong to that group.

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And oh dear how my little red sign makes them SUFFER. Oh the humanity of it all! Boo-hoo-hoo! (But seriously... I'm not moved.)

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I happen to disagree with that thinking. I could make another analogy regarding the treatment of Muslims by some Americans after 9/11, but you're so apparently literal I'm afraid you would interpret that as me accusing you of inflicting physical violence on Christians. Or comparing physical violence to an unpleasant sign.

---

Nope... but I would think that you were S-T-R-E-T-C-H-I-N-G things to the breaking point. What you were doing was comparing two unrelated and disproportionate things. Apples and pineapples. The comparison doesn't work, and quite frankly just looked silly. Honestly, I felt bad in even dignifying it with a response.

My little red sign cannot be compared to American distrust of Muslims after 9/11. My little red sign cannot be compared to American distrust of Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor.

Well... okay... I guess it CAN be compared. If anyone can compare two totally unrelated things, then you're the one to do it. But what I mean to say is, that a reasonable person wouldn't try to make a serious comparison between such things. The analogy you seek just doesn't work.

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Also, I was not addressing the issue of my posts being deleted toward you. I was merely wondering aloud.

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That makes no sense to me at all. If you were not addressing me then why did you type it in a reply to me? I understand the concept of wondering aloud... but that seemed to be more than idle musings that didn't require a reply.

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I have already addressed that question to the moderators.

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Good. That's fine. I'm glad to see that you've found the ATA forum. I hope you find the answers you seek there.

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I never intended to be pulled into a lengthy debate about your door sign. My original post said all I wanted to say and which I still believe -- that with a little bit of consideration, you could have come up with a sign that was just as effective (perhaps more so since your sign excludes non-Christians who proselytize door to door),

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If non-Christians ever come a-knocking... you can rest assured that I'll be very prompt in being inconsiderate to them as well. I'll keep you posted.

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more to the point, and which didn't express hostility toward an entire religious group.

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You and they will just have to learn to accept this disappointment. As long as I'm harassed, I'll continue to display my little (YET VERY EFFECTIVE) sign.

-- Allen

P.S. My sign is merely text. Did you know that there's an "international" stick-figure version? Kinda like those round-headed fat-body stick people you see on signs at the airport... only they are holding a bible with a cross on it... and there's a big red circle-slash "NO" symbol over them. That would be cool to have. :-)

Ain't I a stinker? :hi:

[chimpy the poopthrower]

92. Well, I hadn't planned to come back to this thread...

...but when I saw your subject line, I thought I should come back to graciously accept your apology and end this on a positive note. I don't come on DU to fight with anyone. But now that I've read your entire post, I see that you are not sincere at all, but are continuing to misrepresent what I've said. If my posts hadn't been unjustly deleted, I would be satisfied to just let my words speak for themselves. However, since that is not possible, I feel compelled to defend myself against your misrepresentations.

First you accused me of anti-atheist sentiment. I challenged you to produce a single anti-atheist statement I have ever made on this thread or any other. You have failed to do so. But instead of admitting your error, you continue to slander me. Now you accuse me of defending anti-atheists: "unbridled and fervent defense of anti-atheists and their activities" and of defending door-to-door proselytizing: "you were defending their behavior and their invasion of my privacy". So I challenge you once again to produce any statement I have made on this thread or any other defending anti-atheists or anti-atheism or defending door-to-door proselytizing.

My argument has been and continues to be that your sign unnecessarily expresses hostility toward an entire religious group, when what you really object to is the specific behavior of door-to-door proselytizing. Not all Christians engage in this behavior. I would guess that the vast majority of Christians do not go door to door trying to convert people. And there are many legitimate reasons other than proselytizing that a person who happens to be Christian might come to your front door -- to repair something, to deliver something, to conduct official business, or just to socialize (they may be new to the neighborhood and wish to introduce themselves, for example).

I'm not at all interested in discussing your sign any further. I've already spent more time than I wished doing so. But as long as you continue to misrepresent what I've said, and since my posts have been deleted and cannot stand on their own, I will defend myself against your slanders.

[arwalden]

93. If They Are Too Stupid To Figure Out What The Sign Is For

and if they are the type of delicate flowers that take EVERYTHING personally then they aren't the type of people that I'd want to know anyway. I'm probably better off NOT knowing them, and they are better off not knowing me.

I don't see this as a bad thing. My sign will have accomplished TWO things. It will have warned off the door-to-door bible-thumpers... and it will have insulted-away folks that I wouldn't have much in common with.

---

...but when I saw your subject line, I thought I should come back to graciously accept your apology and end this on a positive note. I don't come on DU to fight with anyone. But now that I've read your entire post, I see that you are not sincere at all, but are continuing to misrepresent what I've said. If my posts hadn't been unjustly deleted, I would be satisfied to just let my words speak for themselves. However, since that is not possible, I feel compelled to defend myself against your misrepresentations.

---

I think you're attributing more importance to this pissing contest thread than it deserves. Fewer people care about this thread than you may believe. This time tomorrow, it will be forgotten. When it comes right down to it, this is a discussion board, nothing more. It's not CNN. It's not the Washington Post.

---

First you accused me of anti-atheist sentiment. I challenged you to produce a single anti-atheist statement I have ever made on this thread or any other. You have failed to do so. But instead of admitting your error, you continue to slander me. Now you accuse me of defending anti-atheists: "unbridled and fervent defense of anti-atheists and their activities" and of defending door-to-door proselytizing: "you were defending their behavior and their invasion of my privacy". So I challenge you once again to produce any statement I have made on this thread or any other defending anti-atheists or anti-atheism or defending door-to-door proselytizing.

---

The evidence is there for anyone who cares to look. The words sentiment in your messages speak for themselves. Each little piece of the puzzle fits together to for a total picture. You may certainly deny it all you want, but I believe that any reasonable person can come to their own conclusion.

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My argument has been and continues to be that your sign unnecessarily expresses hostility toward an entire religious group, when what you really object to is the specific behavior of door-to-door proselytizing.

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So you've said. Over and over and over and over again. And that argument is simply wrong. I get it... we all get it... no need to keep repeating yourself with the same accusations in every single post. You just happen to be wrong. Repeating the same accusations doesn't make it true.

You may choose to INTENTIONALLY misinterpret my little sign if you want to. There's nothing I can do about that. You may choose to INTENTIONALLY ignore my explanation about who the sign is clearly intended for. There's nothing I can do about that either. You may choose to INTENTIONALLY be unreasonable and assume that my little sign is to be interpreted literally as a broad swipe against all Christians.

Again... nothing I can do about people who can only see the surface and who refuse to take the whole thing in context. The misery and unhappiness they create for themselves is their own doing. I can't please everyone, nor will I try.

---

Not all Christians engage in this behavior. I would guess that the vast majority of Christians do not go door to door trying to convert people.

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So you've said! Over and over and over and over again. We agree on this point. But we can also agree that the sky is blue (I hope) and our agreement on inconsequential details doesn't make your absurd accusations any more believable or relevant.

---

And there are many legitimate reasons other than proselytizing that a person who happens to be Christian might come to your front door -- to repair something, to deliver something, to conduct official business, or just to socialize (they may be new to the neighborhood and wish to introduce themselves, for example).

---

Yeah? So what?! I do not care! Reasonable people and intelligent people see the sign for what it is. They know who it applies to and who it doesn't apply to.

I refuse to take personal responsibility for unreasonable or idiotic people. Too bad for them. Get off my property! I'm gonna call the sheriff! Go on... Git! And don't ya dare come back, neither!

People who are so stupid and/or self-centered that they are deluded into being convinced that a "No Christians" sign is aimed at them personally are certainly entitled to feel however they want to feel. If they choose to be offended, then it's of little concern to me. Too bad. Pity.

I don't care how much whining and finger pointing and name calling and cries of "bigot, bigot, BIGOT!" I hear from folks... I will continue to display and defend my right to display my "No Christians" sign.

No matter what you say, I will continue to argue that MY RIGHT to demand my privacy (and my RIGHT to warn away those who choose to INVADE my privacy) takes precedence OVER the delicate feelings of those timid (yet persistent) Christians that keep a-ringin' my doorbell.

No matter what I say, you'll continue to believe that I'm a heartless bigot taking cheap-shots at all Christians everywhere.

We disagree. My sign remains. (Christians everywhere rise up against Allen and storm his house demanding an apology.)

In reality... it's simply a stalemate. Time to move on.

What do you want to play now?

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I'm not at all interested in discussing your sign any further.

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PROMISE? :hi:

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I've already spent more time than I wished doing so. But as long as you continue to misrepresent what I've said, and since my posts have been deleted and cannot stand on their own, I will defend myself against your slanders.

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If you feel that I have violated the rules and attacked you personally, or called you names, then you may click the alert button and explain it to the moderators.

I just call 'em as I see 'em. We have a difference of opinion. Things like that happen on discussion forums.


-- Allen

[mopaul]

95. A. R. Waldennnnnnn, how come you are so meannnnnn?....

...sung to the tune of 'oh suzannah'

[RememberTheCoup]

96. Wow.

Way to gang up. :eyes:

[arwalden]

98. Mopaul Is Just Yankin My Chain...

I know his style well enough to understand his messages (and often warped sense of humor). --- I thought it was pretty funny myself.

-- Allen

Edit:

Or... wait a second... uh... did you think that Mopaul and I were teaming up to dog-pile someone? No. You wouldn't think THAT would you?

Nah... that's a pretty stupid thing for me to suggest. I'm pretty stupid for thinking in the first place. Never mind.

[Djinn]

75. Maybe it's cause

Christianity is the only of the three large monotheistic religions in which there is a religious duty to convert others - Judaism and Islam do not assert this requirement (in theory anyway)

[chimpy the poopthrower]

76. So what?

Not all Christians proselytize, and not all proselytizers are Christian. I've had Hare Krishnas (sp?) come to my door passing out religious material.

[Djinn]

83. Christians HAVE to

it's part of being a Christian (but then again so is forgiveness and charity which doesn't seem to play much of a part these days)

and presumably the poster that's put up a "No Christian's" sign has never had ANYONE except Christian banging on his/her door so he/she is going with what's relevant. Much as somone living in Florida doesn't watch out for Polar Bears and people in Alsaka don't watch out for alligators. Simple really

[RememberTheCoup]

107. Where do you get your facts about Christianity?

I know many, many Christians who have never gone knocking on people's doors to try to convert them.

[Djinn]

112. I've found the New Testament to be a good starting place

which unlike the Koran (and I'm not a Muslim) does not state ANYWHERE that no one should be forced into religion and it DOES state that converting or saving souls is the obligation of Christians.

Where do YOU get your information might be a better question

[arwalden]

87. Fear Not...

If Hare Krishna's become a nuisance in my neighborhood, then I'll address it with a special sign as well.

-- Allen

[arwalden]

46. Some Thoughts On That... Please Read Carefully. Okay.

---

It's true that some religions include proselytizing as part of their beliefs, while others don't.

---

We agree on that point.

---

Does that mean it is necessary to identify (or misidentify - since not all Christians do this) exactly which religious groups are annoying you?

---

If (as you suggest) not *all* of them do this, then THOSE groups won't be coming to my door... now, will they? No harm no foul. No big deal.

---

If you had problems with salespeople bothering you, and the last five salespeople who came to your door were black, would you put up a "No Blacks" sign or would a "No Soliciting" or "No Sales" sign be better?

---

What a ridiculous comparison! I'm almost at a loss for words.

Frankly, I fail to see what kind of connection you're trying to make with that bit of nonsense. In your example, the salespeople aren't selling me their skin color, nor are they trying to get me to convert to their skin color.

---

Again, I realize it's not a perfect analogy,

---

That's QUITE an understatement.

---

but the point is that you are unnecessarily creating a hurtful and divisive situation when another solution would work just as well.

---

No... it is THEY who are creating the situation, not I. They arrive UNINVITED and DISTURB ME. The other solution that would work "just as well" would be to outlaw this type of behavior.

Lacking such a ban, my sign does the trick pretty well.

---

If you think "proselytizing" is too tricky, you could refer to "witnessing", "spreading the 'Word'" or some other phrase in its place.

---

The sign was custom made. I was charged by the letter. The phrase "NO CHRISTIANS!" is short, concise, and works well.

---

And I never said anyone had a right to bother you or invade your privacy - that is a strawman.

---

Strawman, my fat hairy ass! No, it's a valid concern. You ARE suggesting that I give up my desire for privacy, my right to privacy all for the sake of not offending the stray zealots. FUCK THEM and their delicate feelings. It's my property, not theirs. It's my doorstep, not theirs.

My concern and efforts to ensure my own privacy and my own peace-and-quiet far exceeds any concern I may have for anyone's "feelings" at the sight of my "NO CHRISTIANS" sign.

---

All I was pointing out was that you could accomplish the same thing without going out of your way to offend all members of a very large group, most of whom have not invaded your privacy or injured you in any way.

---

Ah... but you fail to understand a vital point: I DO NOT CARE IF THEY ARE OFFENDED. They offend me. Their persistence OFFENDS ME. How "unchristian" of them to continually OFFEND ME.

They'll just have to get over it and move on to the next house. Those who don't will get an earful if they are unlucky enough to have ME come to the door.

-- Allen

P.S. My Christian neighbors asked me "where can we get one of those?" So much for hurting feelings. I guess they don't like being disturbed and pestered either. Apparently "NO CHRISTIANS!" signs aren't just for atheists anymore, eh?

[immoderate]

103. I hate to break through "the wall of reality"

but I have not had such a good laugh in a long time. Well not too long. I don't want folks to think thare is no humor... ah.

What I mean is it's like a "Who's on First." This is classic.

Maybe I shouldn't break the spell. But it's sooooo ROFLMAO

Thanks you, thank you, thank you.

--IMM

[arwalden]

108. You Know... I Found It To Be Very Humorous Too

I'm thinking that some folks don't spend enough time on DU to know me very well. (But then again, some folks may know me TOO well.) Sigh.

You didn't break any spell... I think the show it over. There may be one retort yet to come, but as far as I'm concerned... someone else is welcome to take the last word. Maybe.

-- Allen <--third base

[immoderate]

110. I've seen lots of Mopaul...

... but I haven't seen, or rather, taken note of your posts that much. Part of being here is knowing who to watch for. You were so very clear. And yet...

But what makes funny?

--IMM

[BiggJawn]

27. when was the last time you had "Allah's Witnesses" disturb you at home?

Or Jewish proselytizers?

I agree with Allen. Most those pests couldn't even READ the word "prosyletize" much less admit that is what they were doing.

If some Christian repeair-person is offended by a sign like that, they'll do what they always do: Write a LTTE about how it SUCKS to be a "discriminated against" Christian in this country of sinful Liberals....

What about Atheist repair-people going on service calls to Christian homes? what are WE supposed to do/feel?

I'll tell you what, same thing we've always done, suck it up, do the job and keep our mouths shut.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

44. I've already acknowledged...

...that not all religions believe in proselytizing (including not all Christian religions), and I still don't see what difference that makes anyway. I think it's disingenuous to pretend that a "No Christians" sign is the only sign that would effectively communicate a wish to not be proselytized to; in fact, I've already suggested several alternatives. Incidentally, I've had at least one non-Christian religion come to my door and not only hand out religious material but also ask for a donation.

I've also acknowledged that bigotry against Christians in the U.S. in 2004 cannot be compared to bigotry against some other religions. As much as I dislike a "No Christians" sign, it would not evoke the same strong emotions as a "No Jews" sign would. However, just because a "No Christians" sign isn't as bad as a "No Jews" sign, that doesn't mean it's good. It's still an ugly way to behave even if it's within a person's rights to display such a sign.

I have a basic wish to refrain from offending people who haven't done anything to hurt me, and I don't understand why some people on this board are so hateful that they feel the opposite. You are correct that a Christian repairperson who encounters anti-Christian material can't really do much about it, just as an atheist repairperson encountering anti-atheist material or a black repairperson encountering anti-black material inside a client's home also couldn't do much (except refuse to return - if that is even a possibility with the job). But I don't know why you would see that as a desirable thing.

[MoonRiver]

105. How often in your life has a Muslim or Jew come to your door

trying to convert you. I can't count the times on one hand, because there have been NONE in my experience. Now think about all the wacko Christian sects that pound the pavement 24/7 trying to "save souls" and you might understand why that sign makes perfect sense. If one isn't direct with these nuts, they REFUSE to give up, on our souls that is.

I say this as a Christian myself. Although some might dispute that statement since I now attend Unity Church, a world removed from the evangelical crazies.

[noonwitch]

17. Does your sign work on Mormons, too? LOL

I used to get the JWs and the Mormons all the time, when I lived in Detroit. I'd talk to the Mormons, because they always sent nice-looking young men on bicycles. Plus, their religion is so kooky that it merits at least one conversation with its followers.

[Az]

18. Saw a couple heading for my street the other day

I take a slightly different tact. I prefer to engage and discuss things with them. If they are attempting to convert me I consider that an open invitation to return the favor.

[arwalden]

51. LOL... Occasionally There Will Be A Hottie JW Roaming The 'Hood

and my partner will say something like "you've got to take down that sign so I can INVITE ONE IN and TRY TO SEDUCE HIM."

He's kidding.

I hope.

-- Allen

[dorktv]

19. Have you ever noticed that young mormon men are very attractive?

I think it is to get a woman to agree to have 20 kids. What do you think?

[Touchdown]

34. Yes, I've taken many videos of them...

and posted them on the internet...mormonboysgetiton.org. :evilgrin:

Yes, I'm a joking blasphemer.

[MountainLaurel]

43. Then you'd probably enjoy this

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0124819/

[Wright Patman]

55. Hey, what's kooky

about believing you can earn the right to govern your very own planet in the next life?

[arwalden]

58. Hmmm... I'm Not Sure

I cannot answer "yes" because I don't know about the Mormons who didn't knock on my door. If they HAD knocked on my door, then the sign (obviously) would not have worked on them.

Perhaps I should put a post-it note on my sign that says "Unless you're a hot guy." Some of them are definitely hotties.

On second thought... naaaah! Forget it. I'm happily married. And they're awfully young.

-- Allen

But then again.....

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

26. Have you seen...

the doormat that says "Born OK the first time"? I just about fell out of my chair at the thought of our neighborhood Jehovah's and Mormons seeing that on my door step. But, I simply put a Pentagram sun catcher in my window and viola! no more knocks on the door.

A friend of mine had an even more funny experience. He was helping his wife color her hair a beautiful shade of magenta (she's a wild one) and had the red coloring on his latex gloves when he answered the door. He just told them that it wasn't a good time. They persisted and he raised his "blood" covered gloved hands and insisted that it wasn't a good time. They've never been back! :shrug:

[arwalden]

59. That's Funny!

I've seen "born Okay the first time" bumper stickers.

-- Allen

[galadrium]

77. are you ever going to post a pic of that sign? I've gotta see it.

[freetobegay]

2. I agree with you the only problem I have with this post is.

It's always someone stating something about us "religious assholes" that starts the flame wars.

[mopaul]

6. if you are not at PRA, no need to be offended

i said that right off the bat.

[drdigi420]

32. no, what starts the flame war is when the touchier PRAs

start whining about us not respecting their beliefs

i'll respect theirs when they respect mine

since my belief is that their beliefs are total ka-ka, i really doubt they'll respect it

the best way to have your religion respected is to keep it to yourself

[amber dog democrat]

3. If you think things are bad now,

check out what Martin Luther was saying during the 15th Century regarding the Catholic Church and the Reformation.

But back to the PRAs, they are annoying are'nt they? I have learned to let them know right from the start that I don't ever discuss personal religeous matters with folk I don't know.

Nope, I don't do revivals or medicine shows..... they need us more than we need them.

[dedhed]

4. Right on!

"in case some have not noticed, our whole nation is being dragged into hell by a whole mess of virulent, insane, arrogant, evil, wicked, deranged, demented, desperate, dangerous pushy religious assholes. god save us from your zeolot devotees.

The prominence of the Religious Right on Capital Hill is just plain scary. And the politicians that pander to their vote are betraying our nation for the sake of a few years in a cushy, Washington office. In a perfect world, the slightest public acknowledgment of a higher power should be an immediate dis-qualifier from public office.

:bounce:

[mongo]

24. a bit over the top - don't ya think?

"In a perfect world, the slightest public acknowledgment of a higher power should be an immediate dis-qualifier from public office."

Really, does that make you any better than the state of Texas that said the unitarians aren't entitiled to tax status as a religion because they don't have 1 set of beliefs? Facism is the same whether it comes from the right or the left.

People are entitled to their beliefs, and in a lot of cases it does NOT interfere with them being an effective public servant.

Not that I'm a friend of the fundies.... Here's an example of the letters I get from them.

[drdigi420]

33. yes, people are entitled to their beliefs

my belief is that most religion represents a serious character flaw in a person

if religious ppl would keep it to themselves and stop trying to make others believe in their fairy tales, they wouldnt get so much grief

if i went around saying that i keep a giant purple and green dragon in my house that grants me wishes when i perform rituals it enjoys, i would expect the same ridicule, and would most assuredly receive it. christian beliefs are no less improbable than my pet dragon

if their 'faith' is so strong, why are they soooo easily offended by people talking truth?

that letter is a perfect example of why holy rollers are not fit to lead. they put their bible before our constitution. THAT makes them unfit to lead

(edited for typo)

[mopaul]

39. they put their bible over before our constitution

EXACTLY. this makes them dangerous as all git out.

[dwckabal]

84. Classic Fundamentalism at work!

Tell you how much you are going to burn in Hell, then sign of with "Have a nice day!"

I've always believed the most insulting way for someone to tell you how much they hate you is the phrase, "I'll pray for your soul."

[immoderate]

104. While demonstrating once...

...against some proposed In God We Trust law. Some passers by would say, "I'll pray for you."

I answer, "And I'll think for you."

--IMM

[JNelson6563]

90. Hit man in the sky

That is what "God" is to these people who write such letters. Translation: "I disagree with you so I am calling down my god's wrath upon you and gleefully anticipate your suffering."

Now that I think of it, I have received similar messages from a PPA (Pushy Political Asshole):

I can't wait to watch people like you get turned to ash by what is coming at you in the general election. You're pathetic, unable to recognize good press and interesting allies when you see them, and you are going to get laid waste. Win or lose, you are in for a rough road, and I'm going to laugh my ass off watching you. Pathetic. Totally pathetic. {Actual PM received from fellow DUer during primary season)

Similar tone, no? There are some seriously sick minds among us. Who could gleefully anticipate anyone's misery with such relish?? A seriously ill person, that' who.

Julie

[fudge stripe cookays]

5. Bravo!

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Since I live in a town full of them as well.

Very well said!
FSC

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. Yeah, too many Ashcrofts running the show

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[demnan]

8. Yes!

I was lucky to grow up with atheist parents and they were never pushy about religion. They did "push" certain scientific knowledge on me such as evolution. Without college degrees I still think my parents were better educated than any of these fools in the White House.

I've been shocked to hear the born again weirdos say that dinosaurs did not really exist. If they can look at an 80 ft skeleton in the Washington Smithsonian and deny its existence, they have no real concept of reality.

[LizW]

10. My son wrote a poem

for his English class about being an Atheist, and how the other kids reacted toward him, about being jeered and ridiculed and made to feel ashamed because he didn't believe what they believed. I won't violate his privacy by posting it here, but suffice it to say that it moved me to tears and made me incredibly proud at the same time.

It also scared me to death. He's 11. I sat him down and we had a serious conversation about religious freedom and I pinned him down about whether other kids were bullying him. He claimed that they were not, and that he was just being "creative" with the poem. He says he is able to handle the questions just fine.

Basically, I told him, "If anyone's bothering you about it, I want to know, okay?" (I'm all "mother bear")

He gave the the middle-school "eye roll" and said "Okay, Mom."

I'm so proud of him. (sniff)

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

30. I have 2 sons...

We live in a highly conservative Christian area of the state (Colorado Springs)my boys come home a lot asking me "What religion are we?" I always answer with "Our religion"."Well, what is that?" they ask.
"Mine changes as I grow and learn and so does yours"

They aren't old enough to get it yet, but, I've told them they can believe what they choose to believe and not to let anyone tell them what to believe. Their friends always want to take them to their churches, and I let them go. When they return, they ask all sorts of questions. I never tell them one thing is wrong or right, because I don't believe that way. I just say, "Well that's one way to look at it, can you think of another?" They always surprise me with their insight fullness.

I was raised in the Catholic church but, was always told that I could be any religion I wanted to be. However, my mother always qualified that with "just please don't be Southern Baptist" LOL

[Bandit]

37. I have the same beliefs now that were formed when I was eight years old

I would say you have a very perceptive son. Congratulations

[arwalden]

64. Lucky Fellow!

To have you for a mom... AND... to be able to live his life without the constant nagging fear of mental "terrorism" that every bad deed will result in certain damnation to the burning pit of hell.

I was forced to attend "Free Will Baptist Church" in Valdosta, Georgia. Yeah right... "free will" my shiny metal ass! More like "believe or perish"!

I envy your son... in a good way. I wish I had been fortunate enough to have a mom like you and to be as wise as he is now. He'll do fine.

-- Allen

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

65. Free Will Baptist Church is an oxymoron isn't it?

LOL

[arwalden]

66. Yes It Is... I Didn't Realize It At The Time (Obviously)

... but now I find it quite amusing... in a sad and creepy kind of way.

-- Allen

[Djinn]

78. Bizarro world

In Australia (atleast in the suburbs of Melbourne where I mostly grew up) the kid who BELEIVED in God/Jesus etc would be the one that got picked on.

A was speaking to a friend about this this other day - she works in the US (ski-fields) during the Australian summer and she says the weirdest thing about it is that here being atheist/agnostic is the norm - there (especially in Utah where she often is) it makes you a freak and a target for some serious conversion attempts.

Given that we have similar cultural roots, I wonder what made the US so religious and Australia so not.

[RememberTheCoup]

99. Really? And are you OK with that?

"In Australia (atleast in the suburbs of Melbourne where I mostly grew up) the kid who BELEIVED in God/Jesus etc would be the one that got picked on."

According to you, Christians are a religious minority in your part of Australia, and children are picked on for belonging to this religious minority. And how do you feel about that? Do you think it's good for children to be picked on because their family belongs to a religious minority? Or does it only matter when the children being picked on come from atheist families?

[Djinn]

102. Take a deep breath and calm down

They are NOT a religious minority. Out of all people who consider themselves religious the vast majority would be Christians.

MOST Australians are not "in your face" about it and church attendance is relatively low.

Please point out WHERE I said it was GOOD that kids from religious families (in non religious schools of course) are more likely to get picked on than kids from NON RELIGIOUS families, I don't recall you mentioning at all how awful it was for atheist kisd to get picked on.

Get a f**king grip

[RememberTheCoup]

109. Save your condescending attitude.

I don't need to "get a grip" or "take a breath." I did not accuse you of saying it was a good thing. I *asked* you how you felt about it. Considering some of your other posts on this thread, I was curious. But you certainly did suggest that a Christian child would be in the minority where you grew up. That fact by itself is neither good nor bad... At least in my opinion. Others may feel differently. And for the record I think it's a bad thing for any child to be picked on because of religious differences.

[Djinn]

111. MY condescending attitude

Jesus that's rich!

What I actually suggested BTW was that a kid from ANY religious (atleast overtly) home would be in the the minority NOT Christians - that was your spin not mine.

Would you care to point out which posts of mine in this thread (or others where I've stated that religion IS NOT the casue of all wars etc) would lead you to beleive that I think picking on kids because of their beleifs or otherwise is a good thing?

[Eurobabe]

11. Here, here!

Don't do demagogues or idealogues. Spare me the dogma!

[Az]

12. It is the nature of people to share

This is used to a high degree of effectiveness on the part of aggressive religions.

People exploring ideas on their own will wish to share their discoveries with others around them. This is simply the nature of our social species. We accumulate knowledge by sharing it with each other. But when a virulent replicating mental construct begins moving through the society it makes use of this factor to increase its spread.

Some such selfreplicating memes are benevelant. They may increase social cohesion. But as human awareness increases the particular mental constructs core may be threatened and find itself at odds with the host society. It is at this point that it can become hostile to the advances of the society.

If the society begins taking on ideas that may threaten its propogation or survival various defenses can kick in including destruction of competing institutions and seperation from society.

[SCDem]

13. And Bush is meeting with Dobson (of Focus on the Family)

in Colorado today after giving a commencement speech at the Air Force Academy.

[Servo300]

16. Huh?

>>if a person states the opinion that america is a judeo/christian nation, that person is surely a pushy religious a**hole.<<

Simply by stating an opinion?

I think you state your case in terms that are a little too extreme. Aren't people entitled to simply hold an opinion?

[Tyler Durden]

20. An "opinion" begins with "Well, in my opinion..."

Dogma, propaganda and MEME's presented as FACT are what end up being commonly put forward in that arena.

Don't throw any snakes in MY religion (or the lack of it) and I won't throw any in yours.

[kiahzero]

22. They aren't stating an opinion

They are lying. They are making a factual claim that is at odds with the truth in an effort to decieve.

An opinion might be "America should be a Judeo/Christian nation." That is not what was expressed. The person in question was not making a normative statement, but simply a declarative one.

[DS1]

21. Wow, even ~I'm~ getting sick of your anti-religion threads

[ArkDem]

40. Well, at least, he always brings out the intellectuals.

[Djinn]

79. you can always hit "ignore"

[Comadreja]

23. In the US, atheism and politics don't mix

It was supposed to be the other way round, according to skeptics jefferson, Paine, Franklin et al. But I have no hope of getting elected to much of anything unless I hide my atheism, which I will not do. Nor will I pledge allegiance. This is very hard to hide.

"The so-called Christian virtues of humility, love, charity, personal freedom, the strong prohibitions against violence, murder, stealing, lying, cruelty-all these are washed away by war. The greatest hero is the one who kills the most people. Glamorous exploits in successful lying and mass stealing and heroic vengeance are rewarded with decorations and public acclaim." : John T. Flynn, As We Go Marching

[dand]

25. I sympathize with you,

these people will get in your face in a heart beat, and expect you to thank them, and arguing with someone with a completely closed mind is futile. it scares the bejesus out of me to think that we have one of these morons with his finger on the nuclear button.

[libcurious]

29. As an Atheist

I must slightly disagree on some of your points.
If someone tries to convert you, you say no and they leave you alone then they are just spreading the word. When they keep pestering you, then they are aholes.
Some anti-abortionists (granted very few) disagree with it because it kills a human, not for any religious reason.
America was founded on christian beliefs and they helped form our country from the start. The aholes you refer to do not wish to acknowledge other parts of the Constitution which were put into place to avoid a religious country.
And finally, I agree, our govt. is full of these types.

[drdigi420]

35. actually, no - the country was NOT founded on xtian beliefs

granted, there was an influence by it, but, in the words of a great man who was there "this country was in no way founded upon the christian religion"

this is just another lie told to us to make us accept their lunacy

personally, I think belief in a god is evidence of poor judgement, at the very least.

[libcurious]

38. I support

your belief in god quote. I have read much of the federalist papers and such from the time and ran across this other saying:
It is the duty of every man to be armed to protect against the forces of tyranny. - Do you support this also.

[drdigi420]

41. yes

that is the one main split i have with the party

our guns are to protect ourselves, not just from victims of the drug war, but from a govt that has gone fascist

its a shame too, because this is the single issue that makes the south anything but a complete landslide for Democrats

Common sense gun policy would go a long way to repair the party's credibility

[libcurious]

42. Open minded

Very hard to find on here sometimes. Thank you for you honesty and common sense. I totally agree with you, a gun policy that respects the Constitutions true meaning would just about get rid of all neocons.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

48. Wow!

You're smarter than Martin Luther King Jr. and Ghandi combined!!!

Do you people (not just you, drdigi, all of you collectively) have any comprehension of how narrow-minded and parochial you sound on this thread? The "anybody who doesn't believe what I believe" motif sounds just as asinine coming from a Christian as it does from an Atheist. Do you have any idea, especially in an election year, how counter-productive that attitude is for candidates who need every vote to overcome an enormous fund-raising disadvantage and a hostile corporate-controlled media?

Some Christians are flaming assholes -- and I say that as one who grew up in the church and is still involved to this day. My worst fear is that I'll have to spend all eternity with Rev. Fred Phelps or my right-wing idiot uncle. But to categorize every Christian based on their lowest common denominator is the dictionary definition of prejudice. It's no different than assuming every black person is a violent criminal or that every gay person is a sexual deviant. It's wrong. It's un-American and -- to use a term from my vernacular -- it's immoral.

Millions of Christians believe that "love thy neighbor" ought to be the cornerstone of governance. We also believe that "blessed are the peacemakers" is a pretty good foundation for foreign policy. If you'd remove your head from your ass and get over the love affair you have with you own system of beliefs, you'd find a whole community of Christian allies.

[libcurious]

50. So then

because I agree that the country was founded on christian beliefs, that makes me someone who hates christians?
You want to be a christian? who cares, don't preach to me. If I want to be religious, I will be.
Your a black person? Who cares. People are people.
Your gay? Who cares. It's not wrong, against the law or anything else. Just don't tell me I can't think its gross.

Let me have my OWN opinions, don't force opinions on me.

[msmcghee]

62. But . .

. . we live in a country where our opinions are translated into votes. Therefore, it is our best interest to share our opinion with others and convince them that our opinion is correct. It's a side-effect of democracy.

I'm willing to put up with it as long as people remain respectful and quit when I tell them I'm no longer interested in what they have to say.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

72. Missed the point by a mile (at least)

There's a world of difference between saying "don't force your opinions on me," which I would never be so presumptuous as to even attempt, and saying that anybody who holds a certain belief is guilty of poor judgment. Or is exhibiting a "character flaw," as was stated in another post on this thread.

You're welcome to your beliefs. Be as atheist as you like. Be double atheist if that's what suits you, but there's no excuse for lumping every Christian into the same batch as the right wing lunatics who take the Lord's name in vain virtually every time they open their mouths.

I'm a Christian and I think those people nuts. I dislike them more than you do, because they cause otherwise decent people (like yourself) to believe that I'm a whack job out to shred the Constitution while cooling my heels and waiting for the Rapture.

I won't be so foolish as to ask you to be "tolerant" because right-wing fundamentalists won't return the favor. I would only ask that you differentiate between dangerous extremists and those who are more than willing to live and let live.

[immoderate]

106. When I hear, "America is founded on Christian beliefs"...

...I usually ask, "Exactly what Christian beliefs might those be? And please make sure that they are Christian beliefs, not just common beliefs of all civilized people."

So....?

Edit to say:

If America is based on Christian beliefs, what beliefs were the countries we broke away from based on?


--IMM

[ArkDem]

31. How about

God save us from assholes?

[RememberTheCoup]

94. Amen!

;)

[johnnie]

36. In my 40 years

I have never had someone really try to push their religion on me. I have had people laugh at my Eastern beliefs (Christians and Atheists mainly). I went to Catholic services up until my teens and I of course got Religion thrown in my face.
A few times I have had some people come to my door and I listen to them for a little and tell them I believe in what I believe and have a good day.
I have a fairly good understanding of the Bible, so I can discuss it with people if they would like. I usually have enough "ammo" to keep them at bay if they get out of hand.
But for the most part, I don't understand how so many of you seem to get a lot of people trying to convert you.

[redqueen]

53. C'mon down to Big D!

Just about every place I've ever worked has had at least one born again zealot trying to tell me why I should listen to them. So even if you don't get them knocking at your door, they'll get to you.

This guy at one place even said that he was a born again Christian for years and had a good life and blah blah blah, but that his life didn't really 'turn around' until he started donating the full 10% to the church. His measure as for how his life was 'turning around' for the better - financial gain! If there's ONE thing that drives me absolutely NUTS it's SO-CALLED "Christians" lusting after CASH!

[Nlighten1]

49. *High Five*

I'm sick of all the religious nuts telling my daughter she is going to burn in hell. That is frightening thing to tell a young child.

Morans.

[mr blur]

56. Very well said.

By the way, where is it written that this God singled out America for all his special attention? What was he doing before 1776 - practising? Fucking around with peoples' heads just for the fun of it before he got down to the serious business of recreating the Garden of Eden between Canada and Mexico?

I have no problem with people who want, need or choose to believe in a God but I wish they'd just shut up and leave the rest of us to get on with the business of making a life free of superstition and fairy tales. If this offends anyone then, sorry but there you go.

[msmcghee]

57. That sign is an act of violence.

It is intended more to hurt people than keep the JW's away. Imagine a Christian kid coming to your door to ask to get his ball from your backyard.

The "No Jews" analogy is right on the money. Just because Christians are not a minority in this country doesn't mean it's OK to be prejudiced against them - or anybody else.

If a group self-identifies around a theme, like "White Supremacy" for example, then it's OK to dislike, even hate them, for their stated destructive beliefs. But you can't say that even a majority of Christians are proselytizers.

Your post just shows how close to the surface is our ability to hate.

PS - I'm an atheist.

[REP]

89. Oh Please

Imagine a Christian kid coming to your door to ask to get his ball from your backyard.

Excuse me as I brush away the tears that spring to my eyes imagining the horror that poor imaginary child might face if confronted with a small sign on private property!

I am so very very tired of people hiding behind the possible offense to imaginary children when denouncing things they don't like. Grow a set and just say you dont like it because you don't like it, not because a child might encounter the thing you don't like!

[arwalden]

91. Where to begin... where to begin...

Let's start with your subject line:

---

That sign is an act of violence.

---

Total bullshit! Complete nonsense. (Quick! Alert Homeland Security... VIOLENT SIGN at Allen's house!)

But one thing IS for certain... the subject line of your message is an "act of hyperbole"!

---

It is intended more to hurt people than keep the JW's away.

---

Wow! I'm impressed that you can make such absurd and smug statements with such confidence and without cracking a smile.

I find it laughable that some people have so few things to worry about other than to get themselves worked up into a frothing lather over my little sign.

It difficult for me to take seriously the ridiculous suggestions that my little sign has some deeper nefarious purpose of intentionally insulting Christians throughout my neighborhood and county and that I somehow derive glee from being able to insult so many with such little effort. (Trust me... if my goal were to purposely insult random Christians I could do better than a little 2"x8" plaque.)

---

Imagine a Christian kid coming to your door to ask to get his ball from your backyard.

---

Okay... my mind is now imagining it. Now what?

Are you imagining that I live in some black and white Leave-It-To-Beaver Utopian suburban world where all kids are polite and naive and should be totally shielded from reality. All evidence available to me appears to suggest that. ("What will we tell the CHILDREN? Oh no!")

My acre is unfenced, and it's highly unlikely that the "delicate" children of this 'hood will bother to ask for permission to come on to my property.

FYI: It certainly had no effect on the little girl scout and her mother who wanted to sell me some cookies. Hmmm.... I guess they were SMART ENOUGH to figure out the purpose of the sign.

As far as the not-so-smart people are concerned... and as far as the folks who feel entitled to additional reverence simply because they are Christians... well, then my little sign will just be one event in a never ending series of disappointments.

Their disappointments and feelings of being insulted are directly proportional to their feelings of entitlement. I can't take responsibility for their on self-inflicted misery. They would be wise to adjust their outlook on life and their over-inflated feelings of self-importance.

---

The "No Jews" analogy is right on the money. Just because Christians are not a minority in this country doesn't mean it's OK to be prejudiced against them - or anybody else.

---

Nor does it give them some special halo-bearing trump card gives them extra rights over my right to be left alone, my right not to be continually disturbed, and my right to say so.

I will not acquiesce to these unreasonable demands that serve no purpose other than to validate their odd sense of self-importance and deluded belief that I'm somehow "obligated" to welcome their uninvited intrusion.

---

If a group self-identifies around a theme, like "White Supremacy" for example, then it's OK to dislike, even hate them, for their stated destructive beliefs.

---

So when they claim "moral supremacy" then that's okay. Oh... I get it. Thanks for clearing it up for me.

---

But you can't say that even a majority of Christians are proselytizers.

---

I've never claimed that. But I can claim with 100% certainty that 100% of the proselytizers who come a-knockin' on my door are Christians.

If the situation changes to warrant additional "NO's" to my sign... then I'll be make the necessary additions.

I simply do not care if non-proselytizing Christians are offended at my little sign. Any REASONABLE and RATIONAL person would understand the purpose of the little sign.

If some folks are offended, then that is their CHOICE to be unreasonable, and it's their CHOICE to be irrational and to take personally things that are obviously not intended for them. I cannot--and will not--take responsibility for their uncanny ability to project additional (and incorrect) meaning or purpose to my little sign.

I suppose they could consider themselves LUCKY if my little sign is the worst thing that happens to them.

---

Your post just shows how close to the surface is our ability to hate.

---

I disagree with such obvious extravagant exaggerations. You're making more of this than is warranted.

---

PS - I'm an atheist.

---

That's nice. Thanks for letting me know.

-- Allen

[David Zephyr]

60. Amen, Brother Mopaul!

Religious fundamentalism is more addictive than crack.

[msmcghee]

61. So, what's your point? n/t

[LibertyorDeath]

63. They are told what to think & "believe"

I was taught to question everything & everyone especially any form of Authority Religious, Governmental, and Social.

This has served me very well. I have Zero respect for people that refuse to think critically & independently. They are the sheep of the world you can mold them in any fashion Joseph Goebbels did this Karl Rove does this, Stalin did this Faux News does this. The first Citizens to "disappear" in any Dictatorship are the intellectuals with their nasty habit of thinking for themselves.

You are free to believe what you want to believe just stay the fuck away from me with your religious superstitions & blind faith all the dogma & all the bullshit our God is the only true god shit.

If you need the comfort of something other than your own intellectual capacity then by all means give yourself over to faith.

It might get you through when nothing else seemed to work.
If a higher power works for you that's good for you but don't make the mistake that what's good for you is good for me if I would only open my "heart or mind" to it. That is cult think.

Flame away all "pushy religious assholes"

Thanks mopaul

[chimpy the poopthrower]

68. And ironically...

Although this thread has no shortage of people claiming that Christians are always trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us, the only thing I've seen in the way of proselytizing here is posters saying that Christians are foolish and that their religious beliefs are mistaken.

[Forkboy]

70. please

this is an opinion board.People give opinions.If the posters come to your front door to tell you this then it's proselytizing.Until then the omparison is unwarranted and foolish.

[arwalden]

73. I See No Irony... Nor Do I see Anyone "Forcing" Beliefs (Or Non-Beliefs)

on anyone. What I see is people expressing their opinion on an adult (presumably) discussion forum. There are many personality types that are simply not suited for the sometimes rough-and-tumble threads that develop on hot or controversial topics.

Certainly as individuals each member of DU is entitled to a certain amount of civility and personal respect... but that does not prevent others from making observations and stating opinions about specific religions or religious groups.

It can be confusing... sometimes I have difficulty figuring it out myself. The more time you spend here, the easier it is to figure out how things work.

-- Allen

[drfemoe]

85. And there's a Full Moon Rising..

I promise.

[arwalden]

88. Your Comment Escapes Me...

But I'm certain that it must be awfully clever. Thanks for weighing-in... and welcome back.


-- Allen

[Djinn]

80. yeah well some of us BELIEVE that's the case

and if; Jews are allowed to believe that God flooded the world and it was repopulated with animals from the ark; Christians are allowed to believe that that same God sent his son to die for all of us 2000 years ago and Muslims can believe that same God (without the Jesus = God's son part) later spoke to Muhammed then FINE

But we can beleive it's all BOLLOCKS. No-one prosletyses atheism: ever had someone knock on your door, waking you up on a Saturday morning and saying "Hi we're talking to people today about atheism and rational thought" ever had your kids come home with a book the "old man from the Atheist society" gave them? ever see a bloke on the street with a sign saying "Don't bother repenting it's pointless?"

Talking about atheism and the lack of belief in a deity in a internet forum thread - which by it's title is clearly NOT pro-religion, is NOT proslytising and it's not offensive.

It's pretty simple, if WE don't believe in God that is NOT an attack on those that do - beleive what you want, God, Jesus, Buddha, Fairies, Dragons, alchemy, and start as many threads on DU as you want about that... just don't knock on our doors, lecture to our kids, and don't get in my face on the street with pamphlets.

[Occulus]

97. You're missing the point again

It's not that 100% of Christians are fundies proselytizing assholes. It's that 100%- or very nearly 100%- of fundy proselytizing assholes... happen to be Xtians.

Note the differences in my terminology and ask yourself why I made the distinction, why I spelled it differently the second time.

THEN you'll have your answer.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

71. LOL! I'm with you. To me, religion and whether or not one chooses

to practice, is a private issue.

[flaminbats]

81. Where the hell is God when we need him?

Who is this God person anyway? Is he or she the sun, the rain, the moon, mother Earth, Mars, or just the biggest rooster in the hen house? Is God something, nothing, time, gravity, magnetism, or the nuclear forces? Is God a creator or a destroyer? Is he the beginning of the end? Or is he an infinite string of causes which have led to an unending string of effects? Is God good or evil..love or hate? Is God hope or despair? Does God approve of knowledge or life? Is God free will or the chains of reality? Is God something to be studied, worshiped, or obeyed? Does God hate war or love death? Does God have a bible or is he its ghostwriter? Does God really care what happens or do we create our own heaven and hell?

[drfemoe]

86. good questions .. n/t

[mopaul]

100. woo woo...100th post on my own thread........n/t

[arwalden]

101. Ya Big Trouble-Maker, You... Always Stirrin' Up Sumpthin'

What are we gonna do with you? You've already outgrown (worn out?) the straight jacket... the exorcism didn't work... I'm just at my wit's end.

-- Allen