Who was worse: McNamara or Rumsfeld?

[ButterflyBlood]

Poll question: Who was worse: McNamara or Rumsfeld?

tough one

[The Backlash Cometh]

1. When you compare the number of dead American soldiers, it's no

contest.

[ALago1]

2. My image of McNamara softened...

...after seeing the documentary "The Fog of War".

I recommend this film to anyone interested in U.S. foreign policy. Mac seemed like a decent guy who succumbed to some crappy decisions due to his hubris. He wasn't a psychopath like Rumsfeld.

[Leprechan29]

4. I've seen the documentary

And you're right - it seems like he made bad decisions because of the "fog of war" and seriously feels bad for them. Rumsfeld just seems to want to exersise (read: abuse) his position to fulfil a political agenda. But thats nothing new with most of the higher-ups in the administration

[Leilani]

6. Mine hasn t!

In fact, it has hardened over the years.

Not only did they lie us into a war, but they knew it was unwinnable.
But they kept it going anyway.

If that isn t psychpathic, then what is?

[dbt]

3. REAL tough question, BB!

It's a question of short-term (Rumsferatu) versus long-term (MakkkNamara) evil. And it's a bit of apples-and-oranges; if we'd had the Internet back in the LBJ Erra, Viet Nam might well NOT have been allowed to go on so long.

INteresting!

:freak:
dbt

[louis c]

5. McNamara was following orders

while this is no excuse for participating in War Crimes, Rumsfeld is giving those orders (to Bush), which is far worse.

[Jacobin]

13. As in "just following orders"?

Hell he was the architect for that disaster. His only saving grace is that after murdering millions of Vietnamese and slaughtering thousands of Americans, in his golden years, in the comfort of a cushy professorship, and perhaps in fear of losing his place in his imagined after-life, he's had a convenient eureka moment.

Rumfilled is a hate-filled madman. A psychopathic monster.

However, the results are the same. Dead people and nothing gained.

[msmcghee]

7. After reading "In Retrospect" and seeing . .

. . "The Fog of War". I'm convinced McNamara was a well meaning person who really believed he was doing what was best for the country and his boss.

His problem was similar to many who find success in life. He believed that his success was due to his own cleverness and insight. He was intelligent but most success is also due to a lot of help from others and a good portion of luck.

It's easy to believe that their own cleverness and insight was the primary factor when, for years, everyone who wants to be promoted treats them that way - and so they become to believe it - mostly because it feels good (see my sig line).

Such has been the decline and fall of just about every "man of fortune" in history. Sit back and watch W's - proceeding as we speak.

B-)

[Wwagsthedog]

8. Consider this

Which murderer would you want to be a GI under? Not much of a choice is there.

[Jim__]

9. I think there was a point at which McNamara realized he was wrong

I don't think rumsfeld can even conceive of the possibility of his being wrong.

[Dees]

14. McNamara admitted some years later that he was wrong

and apologized. Rummy's head is way to big to admit to lying and failing.

[Jacobin]

15. "oops, sorry I killed 3 million Vietnamese for absolutely nothing"

That gets him exactly nowhere in my book.

He's just trying to redeem himself for history, or maybe worried about a flamed filled after-life, which he probably buys into.

I'll admit he's a man with a conscience, unlike Rumfilled. However, all the people he killed and maimed probably don't notice his change of heart, after 30 fucking years, too much.

[Dees]

20. I have no love for the guy. He, along with Johnson, Bundy ,

Rastow and Rusk were the guys who sent me over there. What I said was he admitted he was wrong. What price he pays is left to someone or something else.

[msmcghee]

21. I'm not sure if you were born yet or . .

. . how old you were at the time.

But everyone accepted, at first, that if the Communists took Viet Nam that the dominoes would start falling. It started out as a real fear for our national security. This wasn't so long after the Chinese Communist hordes almost took S Korea and the USSR launched Sputnik and fear of communism and ICBM's was widespread in this country.

His failure, like most politicians, was in not wanting to admit defeat after it started, or re-evalute the reasons for going, another name for a big ego. But you have to have a big ego to get elected or appointed to public office.

If you don't, if you're a sensible person without hubris, you'll be chewed up and spit out like Carter.

Catch 22 :eyes:

[Solly Mack]

10. I imagine the answer would be the same for the dead GI under either

Time and contrition don't heal all things.

[Sugarbleus]

11. McNamara Apologized....Rummy doesn't

know what the word means. Bass tard!!

[Aidoneus]

12. McNamara in his prime, for liberals LOVED him at the time

At least Rumsfeld gets some domestic (and of course, international) resistance to his petty and homicidal crimes from the right sources.

[troublemaker]

16. One could *argue* about Vietnam. Iraq is just lunacy.

[T Town Jake]

18. Agreed...

...that's why I voted Rumsfeld. McNamara under JFK was a pretty good SecDef, helped the administration keep it's cool during the Cuban Missle Crises. And I don't think he had the perpetual hard-on for war that his current successor does.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

17. Rumsfield's not done

and there's no historical perspective either.

[dogman]

19. Rumsfeld

only because he had a historical perspective to study and still is wrong.

[opihimoimoi]

22. Ditto, a no brainer. Its Rummy the Dummy

[TexasMexican]

23. McNamara

Vietnam was far more unjustified, and handled far more worse than Iraq.