It happened. . .Paul Johnson was beheaded by his captors.

[wndycty]

My heart goes out to his family.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. I am so sorry about this. :^(

[Kid_A]

2. Jesus...

[SixShooter]

13. Oh my God

:cry:

[greatauntoftriplets]

3. Just heard it on WGN.

No further details, but they mentioned the family's prayer vigil last night.

How sad.

[Jack_Dawson]

4. How many sickos will watch the video?

Count me out.

[seabeyond]

8. why would you say that jack?

gosh.........physically i feel for this man, then to hear you, yuk

[Jack_Dawson]

12. I feel awful for this man

But you know there will be a video and sickos like Sean Hannity will play the audio from it...the whole thing turns my stomach.

[seabeyond]

42. i watched the first one, i felt a responsibility and a sense

i had to participate with berg, his pain and experience, i dont know why i felt i had to be a part of it. i am a non violent person and dont watch movies that are violent or walk from the scenes that are, i cannot do it. but i did with berg, as i said i felt obligated, adn what it did to my body, effected me for days, i would get flashes, very profound. k...........i dont need to do again, and could never go back to berg to watch a second time

it wasnt from a sicko point that i was coming, it was because it was my country that created this, i had to experience all the pain of it to fully understand, just like looking at the pictures of the injured and dead of the innocent in iraq, and allow the tears and pain, in honor of those lives

i hear what you are saying now, but again, i had gotten a physical reaction to this news myself, and then to read your post kinda escalated it.

yes to what you say what the hannities did in the showing to manipulate people not in honoring the experience but to profit and manipulate it.

thank you for sharing

[shanti]

well, i won't be watching either

hearing about it is bad enough, and once an image is in your head, it's impossible to shake.

[shanti]

58. *duplicate post*

n/t

[Occulus]

69. I tended to look at the Berg video analytically

and there are SEVERAL problems with the premise that he was beheaded by Iraqis, or al Qaeda, and that he was alive when it happened.

I question those facts most strongly after watching that video.

[wndycty]

9. I won't be watching it. . .

I could not watch the first one (Berg).

[TexasSissy]

115. I watched Berg. Will not be watching the 2nd one.

I actually changed my mind about watching Berg, but the program wouldn't close. So I watched it through my fingers over my eyes.

It haunts me. In a way, wish I hadn't watched it. In a way, I'm glad I did because it gave me a clearer perspective on the terrorists. It was sort of like viewing hte Abu Ghraib photos....it was unnecessary to view them, but a photo gives a clearer impression of what occurred. I don't need to see any more torture photos, though. I've "got the picture."

I won't be watching this videotape, though.

[0007]

166. I hope the video is more authentic then the Berg beheading.

C'mom Jack get your head out of the sand.

[LizW]

5. Oh no.

This is terrible.

[JHBowden]

6. Was he wearing the orange Gitmo outfit too?

:shrug:

[IkeWarnedUs]

87. yes, he is in an orange jump suit

I don't think I can bring myself to watch the video, but the still they showed on CNN did show him in an orange jumpsuit - which struck me as strange.

This was in Saudi Arabia, Berg was in Iraq.

I am not sure what significance there is in the orange jumpsuits, but it struck me as strange.

[outinforce]

7. Let's Put the Blame Where It Belongs

On those vile creatures who beheaded Paul Johnson.

It belongs no where -- NO WHERE -- else.

[thebigidea]

11. yeah, lets not blame the people that went after Iraq instead of these guys

[NormanConquest]

15. Nobody was assessing blame

until you showed up.

[Beetwasher]

16. Bullshit

They are to blame but so is the admin.

We should have been hunting AQ down with the full force of all of our resources. Instead we invaded Iraq.

[zoidberg]

21. And AQ wouldn't have gone after Americans then?

Radical Islamic terrorists had no problem killing almost 3000 innocent people on 9/11. What makes you think that Americans would be safe from these people had we not gone into Iraq?

[thebigidea]

22. so you'd rather go after Iraq than the group that killed 3000?

Uh, I think we're all probably well aware of 3000 people being murdered on 9/11. That's kind of why some of us suggested that maybe invading Iraq wasn't such a good idea right now, what with a bloodthirsty band of crazies out killing us and stuff.

I know, I know - what a quaint concept, going after those that attacked us.

[zoidberg]

37. What does that have to do with this beheading?

Going after Iraq as a response to 9/11 was a mistake. But that in no way excuses beheading a civilian hostage.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebigidea]

43. do you see me excusing beheading?

I'm saying that perhaps we should've concentrated our efforts on those that do the beheadings, rather than Saddam Hussein.

I know, how naive, right?

[notadmblnd]

103. I thought this guy was taken hostage in Saudi Arabia?

do people believe this has happened in Iraq? Al Q in SA claim to have killed this guy. If we weren't so busy killing and torturing Iraqi's, perhaps we would have the resources to go after the real terrorists in SA.

[Beetwasher]

27. Uhhh, Because All Our Resources Wouldn't Be Tied Up In Iraq

Duh...We could actually be hunting terrorists and having them on the run. Instead, they've regrouped and are obviously more dangerous than ever.

[Centre_Left]

48. Blame

The blame for this incident obviously falls on the terrorists. However, the US goverment deserves blame for creating the kind of conditions where terrorism thrives. If someone steals my car, it's the thieves' fault; if I leave my car unlocked in the most dangerous part of town, however, I am at least guilty of negligence.

The worst part is that the government will most likely exploit this incident in an effort to justify even higher levels of intervention in the Middle East. These fatuous, renewed attempts will then, of course, lead to greater instability in the region as part of an endless cycle of escalating violence.

If the US was simply a neutral trading partner in the region (i.e., if the egotistical blockheads at the CIA and the state department would simply remain behind their desks), I believe that tragedies like this, at the very least, would be far less frequent.

[outinforce]

55. Creating The Kinds Of Conditions.

I think I understand what you mean when you say: "If someone steals my car, it's the thieves' fault; if I leave my car unlocked in the most dangerous part of town, however, I am at least guilty of negligence."

It's like what some folks (but certainly not me) say about rape.

The person who rapes a victim "deserves blame for creating the kind of conditions where rape thrives"

Is that what you mean?

[Centre_Left]

More or less

That's not exactly the example I would use because I also believe that such an explanation is often used unfairly to excuse rape. However, the logic itself is the same and can be applied to the US.

At the risk of sounding crude, I would say that the US, with its foreign policy, has wandered out into the most dangerous part of town naked and spread its legs wide open.

[outinforce]

79. And So,

And so, are you then saying that America deserves to be raped?

[Centre_Left]

76. More or less

That's not exactly the example I would use because I also believe that such an explanation is often used unfairly to excuse rape. However, the logic itself is the same and can be applied to the US.

At the risk of sounding crude, I would say that the US, with its foreign policy, has wandered out into the most dangerous part of town naked and spread its legs wide open.

[Zero Division]

130. False Analogy - Your argument IS dishonest

Because a poster puts partial blame on the Bush Administration, does not mean that they blame the victim, Paul Johnson. Obviously the greatest blame belongs to the terrorists who killed him. Where has anyone actually blamed Paul Johnson?

It's nothing like blaming a rape victim for being raped. Consider that your emotional reaction and expectation of seeing the argument that Paul Johnson is to blame has distorted others' arguments.

Edited to add: Sadly I see that someone further down has indeed blamed the victim, but the argument that the Bush admin. bears partial blame is still not equivalent to blaming the victim.

[outinforce]

136. Excuse Me

But I was having a discussion with Centre_Left.

Centre_Left has already responded to my post.

I think, if you care to take the time to do so, that you will discover that at least one person who has posted to this thread has suggested that Paul Johnson either deserved what he go or was asking to it.

[Zero Division]

150. I saw what looked to be an unfair argument and interjected my opinion

I don't see what's wrong with that. You will notice that I did acknowledge that some poster later on in the thread have indeed blamed the victim (saying that the victim should have expected it, is such an argument), but at the time it appeared that you were equating putting partial blame on the Bush admin.'s actions with blaming Paul Johnson, which would be unfair.

I would think that a person who wanted to discuss an issue with only one other person would make use of the PM function.

[outinforce]

152. "Unfair" "Dishonest"

"I would think that a person who wanted to discuss an issue with only one other person would make use of the PM function."

And I would think that a person who wished to have a civil discussion might wish to ask questions before making accusations -- for instance, telling someone that he had made a "dishonest" argument.

My point on this entire thread -- as it is every time this subject comes up in any way - is that the blame rests squarely on those who commit ther act.

Not upon any one else.

Period.

[Zero Division]

160. I simply wished to make the argument...

that putting partial blame on the Bush administration is not equivalent with blaming the victim and taking blame from the those who directly committed the act. It would fair to try and argue that putting partial blame on the Bush admin. is wrong for other reasons, but unfair to say that it is wrong because it is equivalent to blaming the victim.

That is all.

[outinforce]

153. Dupe

deleted.

[outinforce]

28. I Think What Is Being Said

is that the beheading of Paul Johnson is justified because we invaded Iraq.

Which is almost like saying that the US is justified in going into Iraq because some people hi-jacked our airplanes and crashed them into some buildings.

[wndycty]

33. I think you guys should take either argument elsewhere. . .

. . .lets just pay our respects.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Centre_Left]

US Intelligence Resources...

Prior to 9/11, the US spent 30 billion dollars per year on intelligence and employed 75,000 people in the business of intelligence-gathering. Yet, they were utterly helpless in stopping a terrorist plot costing approximatley $400,000, organized by a man on a dialysis machine sitting in a cave in Afghanistan.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest, other than perhaps the assurances of bureaucrats working for the intelligence agencies, that expending even more money on intelligence gathering will have any effect on prevenying terrorist attacks. Hire 100,000 more people; hell, hire 500,000 more. Previous history suggests that giving more money the intelligence agencies is simply a waste of resources.

[Beetwasher]

71. Not So Sure About That

I think that the money in the past may have been spent unwisely. I think you can effectively fight terrorism (though never eliminate it of course) if you spend your resources wisely and effectively. There are a lot of things that could be done that aren't being done.

There were plenty of chances to stop 9/11 and plenty of warnings. Many people knew something was coming and were running around with their "hair on fire" according to Richard Clarke. 9/11 happened because of monumental fuck-ups (and possibly something even more sinister if you are so inclined).

BTW, welcome to DU!

[mzmolly]

91. Because we could have used our resources to actually TARGET THEM.

:hi:

[notadmblnd]

93. don't you get it?

THE IRAQI'S HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 911!

THE IRAQI'S HAD NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!

THE IRAQI'S HAD NO CONNECTION TO AL QUAIDA!

ARE YOU SURE YOU'RE ON THE "RIGHT" BOARD?

[outinforce]

101. And What

did Paul Johnson have to do with anything?

other than the fact that he was an American citizen?

[notadmblnd]

108. I don't know what he had to do with anything but he was not killed

by Iraqi's. I do believe he was taken hostage in Saudi Arabia and executed there. Now maybe, just maybe if were wern't busy killing and torturing innocent Iraqi's, we'd have the resources to go after the real terrorists. Oh wait.... we can't do that.. big daddy bush and the Bin Ladins are pals.... nevermind.. go back to killing the Iraqi's.

[sffreeways]

149. He was

working on Apache helicopters that are used to militarily dominate the world... muslims included. In the minds of those that killed him, he is the enemy.

[Walt Starr]

32. I disagree

I lay the blame at George W. Bush's feet, squarely.

[Lancer]

46. Blame must be shared

I am completely with you. The Bush Administration, IMO, creates the atmosphere that allows these horrors to happen.

My heart is with the Johnson family, as it has been all week.

[wadestock]

179. You are exactly right....

It was his all out war that pushed this whole thing over the edge.

No one with any logical mind can argue an all out war of a 2010 top military against a 1970 army that had no air force and literally no way to shoot back. Desert Storm was a duck shoot and this was a massacre...plain and simple....right down to the very last tank, artillery piece and anyone anywhere nearby. It will be some time but probably soon enough how relentless and out of control the whole thing was.

Bush's all out war is going to cost us a permanent military presence in the region, a constant backlash from all those that have some sense of history of us playing one side against the other, supplying then destroying weapons, and generally seeing us as a half cocked god inspired gun toten giant.

I once had a friend that had a temper that if you pushed him he would get into such a frenzy that he couldn't calm himself down until he either broke a lot of things, hurt himself or someone else. He used to say....once you find the on button....it's hard to find the off button. Every time he used to say that I'd look at him and say...brother you have no idea.

We've accomplished the same behavior on a global scale. At the very least it's intensely immature and unbecoming of the world's biggest industrial power. But to those that get squashed under the bombs....it's quite a different thing.

[TankLV]

168. That's right - on bunkerboy and the repukes who had a hard-on

for this war.

I couldn't agree more.

The ultimate fault lies with bush*!

For creating the climate that makes this all possible.

Without the illegal war, and the bushco* policy of torturing POW's and other innocents, this would not have happened.

Period.

Just like Hitler enabling the brownshirts to go off and kill jews.

The individuals did the killing, but Hitler created the climate to allow it to happen.

Same thing.

Now tell me why bushco is NOT like Hitler? I'm finding more horrible similarities every fucking moment.

[flakey_foont]

10. My Prayers to his family

this is heartbreaking

[lancdem]

14. How horrible

[Blue-Jay]

17. Shit.

My thoughts are with his family as well.

Also, I hope they didn't videotape it. I can't take another three weeks of tinfoil postulating on who actually did it, ala Nick Berg.

[mhr]

24. I'll Start, Pentagon Intelligence Unit Working With Saudi Collaborators

All to prop up the administration's failings

[datasuspect]

18. it's unfortunate

but i wouldn't go work at a job where, for example, i had to catch the el at 3 in the morning and let's say the job was at 63rd and cottage grove (as a parallel).

no one deserves that, but the guy put himself in harm's way.

lots of innocent people die everyday.

who sheds a tear for any of them?

[Kid_A]

36. No one is taking anything away from the thousands of innocents that die

every day, but there aren't that many people who are murdered to make a statement aimed directly at us. All deaths are tragic in their way, but you have to admit that when innocent men like Nick Berg and Paul Johnson are killed to make statements to the leadership of this country that is a different situation.

[zoidberg]

44. Simply put, this is a vile hate crime

We remember James Byrd because it was such a vile and disgusting crime. It was a crime against the victim, against a group and against all of humanity. This beheading is the same thing.

[outinforce]

60. But, To Use an Example From

Elsehwere on this thread,

Mr. Byrd made have contributed to the conditions that led to his own demise.

I mean, he might have been walking in a dangerous area of town, and he might have said something that caused his killers to do what they did.

Someone else suggested this -- I didn't.

[redqueen]

19. Oh, God

:cry:

My heart and prayers go out to his family and friends.

[Bandit]

20. First one atrocity then another and another ~ Where does it end?

I suppose we will kill a bunch more Arabs now or capture and torture them to show how we handle such things. Maybe if we commit a great enough atrocity to them they will quit. Does anyone believe that to be true?

[outinforce]

23. Apparently

"Maybe if we commit a great enough atrocity to them they will quit. Does anyone believe that to be true?"

I would guess that the people who killed Paul Johnson believe it to be the case that if they commit enough atroctities, we will leave Iraq.

Or something.

[Beetwasher]

31. Those People WANT US IN IRAQ

It's the greatest recruiting tool they've got...Bush is their #1 recruiter and Iraq is their training ground.

[outinforce]

40. So You're Saying, Then,.....

that "those people" beheaded Paul Johnson in order to get the US to remain in Iraq, so that "those people" can recruit even more people to behead even more Americans.

Makes sense to me.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[outinforce]

64. "Demented"?

I am not the one here who is resorting to all sorts of vile, profanity-laden invective and name-calling.

I believe that would be you.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hiphopnation]

83. Beetwasher, Outinforce...

I love it! A fellow American is violently killed due to the destructive policies of this mis-admin and all you two can do is bicker!! Very mature....

:puke:

[outinforce]

84. Well,

HE started it!!!!!

[Beetwasher]

88. Dishonest Bullshit Must Be Countered

n/t

[outinforce]

98. Due to What?

A fellow American is violently killed due to .....what?

Why is it so difficult to say that a fellow American was killed due to hatred. Hatred on the part of those who killed Mr. Johnson? Why is that such a terribly difficult thing to say??

No one said, when Matt Shepherd, was killed, that he was to blame.

Because he wasn't.

And yet, there were those who said that he put himself in danger by going into a straight bar and by saying certain things.

The people that were guilty for killing Matt Shepherd were the people that killed Matt Shepherd.

Paul Johnson was killed -- not by "the drstructive policies of this mis-admin" -- but by people. People who were driven by hate.

Why is that so impossible to see?

[hiphopnation]

122. How about,

in the moments immediately proceeding his death, we not speculate what it was due to just pay some respects. He's dead, exactly. Have a little humility and respect.

BTW, I have neither agreed or disagreed with your premise here. My feeling is that it's six of one, half-a-dozen of the other. But that's beside my point.

[outinforce]

131. It Seems To Me

that you make a good suggestion.

It also seems to me that one good and proper way to pay someone who has just been brutally murdered is not to engage in any talk that in any way excuses his brutal murderers for their terrible actions.

That's just me.

[hiphopnation]

147. But it's as irresponsible and dangerous

as it is short-sighted to immediately start throwing around blame for his death. Thousands and thousands will ultimately be casualties of the Bushco incursion into Iraq. A price should be put on every human life lost, IMHO. To me, the death of an innocent Iraqi civilian is as tragic and sad as the death of an innocent American. Obviously some in this thread (I'm not talking about you) don't feel the same way which, to me, is sad and pathetic.

But that's just me.

[mzmolly]

100. I'll say it. YES!

It's a matter of f-ing bravado. Bush and these monsters have much in common. One will perpetuate the other.

Violence begets violence!

[mzmolly]

97. You are exactly right.

!

[Bandit]

35. It works for me

I say get out now. I am sick to death with these atrocities occuring on both sides. Let's leave them be. We don't belong there and they will never let us live in peace as long as we are there. What would you suggest? Kill every Arab. Is that your "final solution"?

[outinforce]

49. "Final Solution"??

Gee.

Now where have I heard that term before?

I certainly do not advocate killuing every Arab.

But I do think that there are several people in the Middle East whose idea of a perfect world is one in which no American -- and no American city -- exists.

That's the "final solution", I think, of some in the Middle East.

Perhaps even of those who beheaded Mr. Johnson.

[Bandit]

78. Ok what is your suggestion?

Should we stay there and commit even more atrocities against them and their countryside? What do you suggest? I suggest getting the hell out of there. They IMHO don't want to destroy America, they just want Americans out of their country and their life. They don't want anything to do with Americans. The reason they would even think of attacking a city in America is to get us to leave their countries and their oil. I say let's leave now.

[TexasSissy]

25. NO! NO! NO! Say this is a joke.

I know it isn't. But I hope it is. Say this isn't so.

Oh....my.....God. Just when I think it can't get worse, it does.

[hiphopnation]

26. has this been independently confirmed? n/t

[The empressof all]

30. Yes-now confirmed

Per MSNBC

[hiphopnation]

34. Not on my MSNBC

"The network did not immediately provide details, but its chief corresponent in Saudi Arabia told CNN he had seen a video of the beheading. The report could not be independently confirmed."

I won't believe it until I see it...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5196406/

edit: link

[spanone]

29. The gods must be crazy.

[Skittles]

39. huh, I guess God didn't answer all those prayers

nt

[datasuspect]

not the gods

just a fucked up middle east foreign policy undertaken by a fundamentalist administration with a hard on for killing lots of brown people.

[datasuspect]

not the gods

just a fucked up middle east foreign policy undertaken by a fundamentalist administration with a hard on for killing lots of brown people.

[datasuspect]

53. not the gods

just a fucked up middle east foreign policy undertaken by a fundamentalist administration with a hard on for killing lots of brown people.

[graham67]

47. I knew it would happen...

I feel terrible for the family :(

[Lex]

Bush swaggered and said "Bring it on!"

And they took his advice, and they started bringing it on.

[mzmolly]

68. Guess they "brought it on"

OMG.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cheswick2.0]

54. it happened in Saudi Arabia

but bush might take you up on your suggestion.

[Fescue4u]

62. Good point.

Frankly I think that Saudi has been and is a bigger threat than Iraq.

Hopefully Kerry will deal with Saudi appropriately.

[graham67]

57. I hope this was sarcasm

:(

[Fescue4u]

59. No. Just Anger. Im tired of the cult of hate

And IM sorry, but the life of Americans is worth more than the lives any of number of Iraqis.

Its time that we take off the gloves and deal with Iraq effectively, rather than sitting around letting them kill our boys one by one.

[Cat Atomic]

65. You think the gloves have been ON up to this point?

What exactly does "taking the gloves off" mean to you? Nuking?

[Fescue4u]

70. Actually yes.

While bloodshed has been far and wide in Iraq, the United States has demonstrated a great deal of restraint.

As for your example of nukes, thats a good example. No doubt if the religion of peace members had nukes, we would be a smoking hole, whereas we have them and have not used them.

No Im not advocating nukes though.

I want to see terrorist in Iraq (and saudi) KILLED, and Iraq turned back to the Iraqi people as soon as possible.

We been pussyfooting around there while trying to steal the oil.

[Cat Atomic]

89. Restraint? Where?

At Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, and the other secret holding facilities? At the occasional wedding party/massacre site? Maybe the restraint is to be found at the Iraqi demonstrations that get fired on by US troops? Or in Saudi Arabia, from the oppressive puppet regime our own government props up because it serves domestic business interests?

The US has not shown restraint in this manufactured "war on terrorism". This is a matter for law enforcement and international cooperation. These things are not helped by "taking the gloves off".

[Fescue4u]

95. Didnt say we have been peaceful

But there has been restraint.

The terrorist are using every weapon available to them. We are not. Thats restraint.

We havent even used our most powerful non nuclear weapons (moab, fuel air bombs, etc)

[Cat Atomic]

116. You're comparing a modern state to a criminal network.

It's a ludicrous comparison.

[Fescue4u]

121. Not at all

You have to compare a modern state to a criminal network...when the state is at "war" with the network.

Ludicrous? yes. Reality? Yes.

[Cat Atomic]

129. The same logic makes the US a terrorist organization.

When the Bush administration threatened to starve Afghanistan's population into capitulating with US demands to topple the Taliban, that was an unlawful use of the threat of violence to attain a political goal. Terrorism, in other words.

You sure you want to compare states with criminal organizations?

[Fescue4u]

134. I suppose so

As I said. When the state is fighting a criminal organization, it is fool hardy to NOT make the comparison.

[TankLV]

170. Umm - you need to do a l ittle fact-checking.

We did use MOAB and fuel air bombs.

Or don't you remember "shock & awe" and all those nifty graphics and music that was prepared just for this special occasion?

Not to mention depleted uranium ammo.

Pretty "neat" stuff to you, right?

[TankLV]

169. The restraint was manufacturing lies to wage war in the first place?!

Didn't you get the memo?

Bushco can lie, cheat, steal, TORTURE, & KILL indiscriminately.

And we should all expect the rest of the world to bring us FLOWERS!

Get with the program!

[Doctor Smith]

139. Illegally invading a sovereign country is not restraint.

Torturing the citizens of said country is not restraint.

Laying siege to a city in said country, and killing hundreds of its residents to avenge the death of 4 mercenaries is not restraint.

Etc., etc, etc...

[Ms. Clio]

162. All those thousands of deaths might even be called "murders"

and particularly gruesome murders, at that.

[graham67]

67. My God

That is really fucked up. This happened in Saudi Arabia, not Iraq

[Fescue4u]

72. Yes. My mistake

In many ways, it makes it worse that it didnt happen in the "war zone"

[graham67]

74. I would like to know...

why you think American lives are worth more than Iraqis?

[Fescue4u]

77. Because

They are Americans.

We must take care of our own.

No one else is going to.

[graham67]

82. I don't even really know what to say....

I am very sad you feel this way.

[Fescue4u]

85. I am very sad for the man who was murdered

And I don't care for one wit for the men who murdered him.

[sffreeways]

155. That's why

they murdered him

[Ms. Clio]

96. the life of Americans is worth more than the lives any of number of Iraqis

And the coments of most DUers are worth more than the comments of any number of hateful bigots.

No doubt the Iraqis feel their lives are more important than the lives of any number of Americans, too.

The U.S. tried to deal with Vietnam "effectively," for decades, and that worked out so well.

[Fescue4u]

99. I agree.

Thats why we have to look out for own family (i.e. Americans)

[mzmolly]

105. Then explain why you supported the *liberation* at the expense of American

lives?

[Fescue4u]

107. Well I originally agreed with Kerry on this

And that there was WMDs in Iraq that threatened Americans.

Clearly that was a lie.

I've changed my mind. So has Kerry, So has Mrs CLinton. So has many many others.

[mzmolly]

119. Yes but the difference between you and Kerry and Ms Clinton

is that they don't place one life above another.

They felt that this would save lifes. You are claiming that American life is "more valuable" and that's the difference.

I took a wild guess that you supported the war, but I doubt your position was as close to Kerry's as oh ... say Bushs? :hi:

[Fescue4u]

138. Of course they do.

Kerry went to vietnam and killed enemy.

If you don't think he placed a higher value on American soldiers lives than enemy lives, then you have a very low opinion of our next president.

And I resent your implication that I supported Bush.

I spit on that remark.

[mzmolly]

158. *spit away*

Of course Kerry supported his fellow soldiers and killed the *enemy* it doesn't mean he personally places a higher value on American lives then innocent Iraqis.

[Fescue4u]

180. spit spit spit spit

:)

Oh come on. If Kerry couldnt tell the difference between enemy and non enemy, I doubt that he would have received awards.

[TankLV]

171. If YOU say so!

then it must be true!

You are SUCH the Democrat!

[Fescue4u]

182. Thank you.

[Tinoire]

189. Killed the "enemy"? What enemy?

"You're either with us or against us"- is that it?

Our government manufactures enemies according to the needs of the MIC and too many are willing to oblige by dehumanizing the enemy of the day in order to justify their slaughter.

Urgh.

[Fescue4u]

192. The enemy is the people trying to kill you.

In kerrys case (as this is the subject of discussion), it was the North Vietnamese. They were trying to kill him. He was trying to them. Kerry succeeded was awarded medals for his valiant efforts in this.

Now whether or not they SHOULD be the enemy is a different matter..but it doesnt matter to the foot soldier. Flying Bullets or landmines do not have politics.

But I suspect you knew this already...I mean, you DID know this right?

[Tinoire]

194. Sorry. I won't be giving in to the language of propaganda anytime soon

Those people were never our enemy just as today's Mulsims are not our enemy.

My enemy is people who go through gymnastic hoops to convince me that some poor sucker I've never met before is my 'enemy' simply because he's an obstacle to some grand capitalistic scheme.

Even in a world where someone may be trying to kill you, as in the example you're giving, they're not the real enemy. The real enemy is the guy who sent you there to be killed by some poor sucker defending his country who's a lot less confused about what he's doing than you are.

Bush: The enemy blah blah blah
Sharon: The enemy blah blah blah
Cheney: The enemy blah blah blah
Rumsefeld: The enemy blah blah blah
Reagan: The enemy blah blah blah
Nixon: The enemy blah blah blah

All this enemy talk is that talk of Republicans and Warmongerers but I suspect you knew this already...I mean, you DID know this right? ;)

[Fescue4u]

201. Sounds very sweet and innocent

Perhaps our soldiers should just hug the guys trying to kill them.

Lets send this in to the Pentagon suggestion box, but its proably best to wait till Kerry wins.

[Tinoire]

204. "the process of linguistically dehumanizing" those we need to slaughter

((With thanks to http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1816578#1817285
">Disturbed))

I am following Tom Paine's advice and "Passing this on"... Hopefully this won't go over the head of someone bought the WMD propaganda hook line and sinker and now believes that "It's time that we take off the gloves and deal with Iraq effectively rather than sitting around letting them kill our boys one by one." (post 59)

"War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning" by Chris Hedges

Chris Hedges has been a war reporter for the past 15 years, most recently for The New York Times. His book, War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning, is one of the most striking analyses and critiques of what happens to people and societies as they go to war to be published in many years. Writing with a clarity and tone reminiscent of Albert Camus, Hedges unravels the myths and dysfunctional nationalism that grip nations heading to war; the intoxicating effect of these causes and rhetoric; and the terrible costs that soldiers, victims and societies pay -- when the realities of war -- not the rhetoric -- are experienced. He spoke to TomPaine.com's Steven Rosenfeld.

TomPaine.com: When a country prepares for war and goes to war, there are changes in that country’s politics and culture. You write that a myth emerges -- a seductive myth as leaders spin out a cause. You write that a patriotism, a "thinly veiled form of self-worship appears."What do you mean by this myth, this cause, this patriotism and what you then say is an intoxicating result?

Chris Hedges: Well myth is always part of the way we understand war within a society. It’s always there. But I think in a peacetime society we are at least open to other ways of looking at war. Just as patriotism is always part of the society. In wartime, the myth becomes ascendant. Patriotism, national self-glorification infects everything, including culture. That’s why you would go to symphony events and people wave flags and play the "Star Spangled Banner." In essence, it’s the destruction of culture, which is always a prerequisite in wartime. Wartime always begins with the destruction of your own culture. Once you enter a conflict, or at the inception of a conflict, you are given a language by which you speak. The state gives you a language to speak and you can’t speak outside that language or it becomes very difficult. There is no communication outside of the clichés and the jingos, "The War on Terror," "Showdown With Iraq," "The Axis of Evil," all of this stuff. So that whatever disquiet we feel, we no longer have the words in which to express it. The myth predominates. The myth, which is a lie, of course, built around glory, heroism, heroic self-sacrifice, the nobility of the nation. And it is a kind of intoxication. People lose individual conscience for this huge communal enterprise.

TP.c: You write there are different war myths -- myths that fuel conflicts. What type of myth do you see animating the discussion today in the United States as it looks at Iraq?

Hedges: Well I think the myth is remarkably similar from war zone to war zone. At least, as it pertains to how the nation that prosecutes a war looks at itself. We become the embodiment of light and goodness. We become the defenders of civilization, of all that is decent. We are more noble than others. We are braver than others. We are kinder and more compassionate than others -- that the enemy at our gate is perfidious, dark, somewhat inhuman. We turn them into two-dimensional figures. I think that’s part of the process of linguistically dehumanizing them. And in wartime, we always turn the other into an object, and often, quite literally, in the form of a corpse.

TP.c: Where are we in the United States, now, in this progression?

Hedges: Well, we’ve come frighteningly far in this process. And this has been a long progression. It began at the end of the Vietnam war. The defeat in Vietnam made us a better nation and a better people. We were forced to step outside our own borders and see how other people saw us. We were forced to accept very unpleasant truths about ourselves -- our own capacity for evil. I think that that process, especially during the Reagan years, or at least that state, began to disintegrate. War once again became fun: Grenada; Panama, culminating in the Persian Gulf War. So that we’re now at a process -- Freud argues that all of life, both for the individual and within human society, is a battle between Eros, or love, and Thanatos, or the death instinct. And that one of these instincts is always ascendant, at one time or another. I think after the Vietnam war, because of the terrible costs that we paid, because of the tragedy that Vietnam was, Eros was ascendant. I think after the Persian Gulf war, where we fell in love with war -- and what is war, war is death -- Thanatos is ascendant. It will, unfortunately, take that grim harvest of dead, that ultimately those that are intoxicated with war must always swallow, for us to wake up again.

<snip>

You can read the rest here:
http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/6657

"The myth, which is a lie, of course, built around glory, heroism, heroic self-sacrifice, the nobility of the nation. And it is a kind of intoxication." Chris Hedges

[Ms. Clio]

106. We belong to a HUMAN family n/t

[Fescue4u]

109. Not the head choppers.

Sorry. They are not in my family.

Pity them if you will, but I won't

[Ms. Clio]

111. How about the soldier torturers?

Are they in your family?

[Fescue4u]

If you want to discuss relative evil

Then yes, the killers are worse than the soldiers who make Muslims into Butt pyramids.

Are those soldiers in my "family" hmm I dunno. They are Americans and criminals IMO, but Im not quite ready to lower them to the standards of Muslim terrorist.

But the Head Chopping terrorist are animals and should be treated as such.

[Ms. Clio]

120. How about soldiers who rape and torture children?

It was more than "butt pyramids" and the whole world knows it. Stop perpetuating the propaganda.

How about beating people to death after administering electric shocks?

Torturers are animals and should be treated as such.

[Fescue4u]

123. No the butt pyramids were real.

I saw the pictures and Im suprised that you have not.

(on edit).

I have not seen the pictures of children being raped and killed. are you serious?

[Ms. Clio]

128. You're not even able to sustain this debate on honest terms, are you?

No one is debating the existence of those activities, or those photos.

Because you haven't seen photos of the rest, do you think those tortures weren't "real?"

[Fescue4u]

133. Reread my post please

I don't deny the photos you describe.

This is the first I've heard about children being tortured to death. I take that very seriously.

I havent heard of nor seen those photos, but I take you at your word.

[Ms. Clio]

140. You take that more seriously than torturing innocent men or women?

You do know that the Red Cross said that up to 90% of the people held in the U.S. prison hellholes were innocent?

But our Congressional representatives have seen these photos, and there have been links to the stories posted here.

Sy Hersh also spoke about it recently, there was a thread here...if I can find it, I'll post the link.

[Fescue4u]

146. thats a fine line

But I'll take a positition anyway.

Yes..murder is worse than torture imo.

Thanks for the promised link btw.

[Ms. Clio]

157. How about torture AND murder?

Better or worse?

How does that rank in the human life worth scale? Worse or better to torture an American man, or an Iraqi child?

Here's a link to a description of the photos:


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/may2004/dems-m15.shtml

After the viewing, a number of senators expressed revulsion at the photographs and said they were “far worse” than what they had expected or what had been presented so far in the US media.

Questioning at Rumsfeld’s May 7 testimony before the Senate committee had already made clear that the Pentagon was holding photographs that reveal horrible atrocities. Republican Senator Lindsey Graham said at the time, “The public needs to understand we’re talking about rape and murder here.”

I don't seem to have bookmarked the thread about Sy Hersh. But he recently spoke at a university (in Boston, perhaps?) and told the audience that horrible things were done to children in front of their mothers.

Here's a link to a story about the Red Cross's report:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0511-04.htm

[Fescue4u]

183. Well that would be worse wouldnt it?

Not exactly rocket science.

[Ms. Clio]

186. And then, your point would be--what, again, exactly?

That Americans are still "worth more" on the Human Life Scale than Iraqis?

[Fescue4u]

193. That terrorist are scum

And do not deserve pity.

Please tell me you agree.

[Tinoire]

196. Please define a terrorist

Is the man dropping one ton bombs on an apartment complex not a terrorist?

Are those who litter an entire country with cluster bombs, mines, Agent Orange and depleted uranium not terrorists?

Is the soldier who obliterate an entire neighbourhood to possibly get one person not terrorists?

What is a terrorist? Simply those "who are against us"?

If you want to go by the dictionary definition of terrorists, we are the biggest terrorists in the world. We've killed & maimed MILLIONS, MILLIONS of people yet let 2000+ get killed in our country and we take off to terrorize & blow up the world. If that is not terror, I do not know what is.

The terrorists are scum and do not deserve pity.

Hmmm. Millions all over the world see us as the terrorists. I can hear them echoing you now about how we don't deserve any pity.

[Fescue4u]

199. Try this link

http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=terrorist&x=19&y=17

If that doesnt help, I suggest that you ask your teacher.

[Ms. Clio]

197. Sure I'll agree

When you agree that torturers are scum and do not deserve pity--and so are Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al. who justify, encourage, and condone the evil.

[Fescue4u]

202. agreed.

I've never defended that actions of the torturers, nor Bush and his cronies. They deserve appropriate punishment.

For some reason, Im being asked to defend a position that I have never taken. (???)

I abhor the whole prisoner abuse tactics.

[Tinoire]

190. Children. Young children were raped in front of their mothers

this will be the next round of photos from which Bush is desperately trying to divert attention. He classified all the photos but they will be leaked regardless because powerful people are prepared to bring him down by any means necessary - not because they're any better morally but because Bush is too much of a fool and an embarrassment.

[Fescue4u]

191. Thats horrible

I hope that its just rumor and not actually true (that it happened).

[Tinoire]

195. There's a lot of testimony supporting this and it's mentioned in

Taguba's report. It seems the 2000 missing pages have even more details on this to include the testimony of soldiers who either witnessed or participated in it. In the report leaked to the public (again missing 2000 pages), one poor boy was filmed as he was repeatedly sodomized. The doors of his cell were covered with mattresses and blankets to muffle his screams. A female soldier filmed the entire thing.

It is horrible and sick. I can not tell you what I would do to the people who dared do such things to my children (if I had any).

Seriously, read Seymour Hersh's writing on this. He has an inside scoop and it's appalling.

[Ms. Clio]

198. Um I posted a link to the statements by witnesses who saw the photos

It's not a rumor.

[Fescue4u]

203. I believe you.

Im bandwidth challenged right now (im on the road), but when I get home I want to read this.

thanks.

[Ms. Clio]

205. read this too, it's very short

New Abuse Charges
Classified sections of the military's prisoner abuse report detail sexual assaults on women detainees

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040628-655389,00.html

[Doctor Smith]

151. This is why the Whitehouse is desperate to hide the other photos.

People like Fescue4u will continue to equate the torture, rapes and murders by American soldiers with frat pranks, until the photos are released and that becomes impossible.

[Ms. Clio]

159. That is exactly right

I see it here all the time.

Here's an article specifically about that:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/may2004/dems-m15.shtml

[0007]

176. Folks like Fesue4u doesn't want to look at foreign policy

or at an abusive secretive administration that the whole world is sick of.

[Fescue4u]

184. Excuse me?

I want this administration ousted in Nov..IF NOT SOONER.

I agree that our foreign policy needs to be looked at. However looking at it.

My mouth is overflowing from the words being put into by so many fellow "democrats"

[Ms. Clio]

187. There are many, many like that--although how they can miss the posts

informing of us of the horrible truths, day in and day out, is a puzzlement.

[Fescue4u]

181. The photos should be released

Of course.

[TankLV]

173. It's all the fault of those damned PICTURES!

If only THOSE PICTURES didn't get out, then the whole world would love us because WE KNOW we're not evil, and Iraq is better off without Saddam!

sigh.

[Fescue4u]

185. Now that is just silly.

In fact the pictures have nothing to do with this innocent mans murder.

He would be dead, regardless of pictures.

[TankLV]

172. "America - not quite as evil as the rest of the world"

Vote for me.

bush* - not as bad as Saddam.

sigh.

[Droopy]

110. What are you talking about?

3 million Vietnamese killed versus 58 thousand of our own. Are those the kind of numbers you want to see in Iraq?

[Ms. Clio]

114. I was commenting on F4U's post

He said we needed to start dealing "effectively" with Iraq. I'm curious as to what that means--napalm? Massive bombing raids? And how did all that work out "effectively" in Vietnam? (It was meant to be sarcastic)

[Fescue4u]

117. 'effective'

Frankly I don't know.

But I know ineffective when I see it.

[Ms. Clio]

125. Yeah, it's clear that you don't know

I know invasion, occupation, and war crimes when I see them.

The only "effective" solution is withdrawal.

[Fescue4u]

135. Uh yes.

I guess you win?

[Ms. Clio]

141. Okay, if you say so n/t

[Fescue4u]

144. uh yeah. ok. n/t

;)

[Droopy]

126. Oh, okay. Pardon me. n/t

[Suspicious]

104. Not very often

do I see something said here that is so WRONG:

... the life of Americans is worth more than the lives any of number of Iraqis.

How unfortunate you are, if you believe this. :(

[SheepyMcSheepster]

112. and I'm sorry, but how can you stand by that statement?

"the life of Americans is worth more than the lives any of number of Iraqis."

by what means are you able to decide the worth of someone's life?

[Fescue4u]

118. yep

When it comes to them or us. I choose us.

When it comes to him or I. I Choose I

Basic. Human. Survival.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

127. so do you advocate the deaths of innocent people..

in order to protect yourself from a percieved threat?

to follow your line of thinking, you would demolish an entire city of innocents that contain one criminal in order to reduce the threat against american lives?

and no, you didn't answer the first question.

how do you decide what an idividual's life is worth?

do you have a life-worth scale you use?

[Fescue4u]

132. No.

But if they are threatening me, then they are not innocent are they?

As for.

"how do you decide what an idividual's life is worth?

do you have a life-worth scale you use?"

Simple. In decending order

My family
Me
My country
Fellow Humans
criminals
Enemy at war
terrorist.

Not so difficult is it?

[SheepyMcSheepster]

137. yes, it gets a difficult when you say things like:

"the life of Americans is worth more than the lives any of number of Iraqis."

i am sure this is your personal opinion, but it would make for very poor foreing policy.

so please clarify your statement, are you saying that the life of one american is worth more than the lives of any number of iraqi's?

and what strikes me is, these people weren't iraqi, so what does iraq have to do with this guy's beheading?

don't you mean saudis?

do you believe killing more innocent people helps to solve the proble in anyway?

[Fescue4u]

142. I agree

And I would make a poor diplomat.

yes.. yes I was mistaken, I originally thought that was done in Iraq, Someone else along the line in this thread pointed that out.

As for your final question..No. I do not believe in killing innocent people.

[Kipepeo]

143. you are participating in the cult of hate with this statement

"the life of Americans is worth more than the lives any of number of Iraqis"

I am sorry to share the planet with you. This is beyond disgusting.

[Fescue4u]

148. see above posts

I don't feel like running through this thread again with it.

Americans must take care of their own. No one else will.

[graham67]

154. Look at the underlying reason why no one else will....

Our foreign policies have destroyed our standing in the world.

[Kipepeo]

161. Americans taking care of our own

is not the same thing as saying an American life is WORTH MORE than the lives of countless Iraqis, which is what you said originally.

And it's disgusting and makes me sick to read it. I don't see how that view is any different from the "cult of hatred" you claim to detest. Gross. Period.

[Ms. Clio]

163. It's not and you make an excellent point n/t

[Fescue4u]

63. crimininy deleted.

I appologize for offending the religion of peace.

[myrna minx]

51. When will it end?

I can't even begin to imagine what his family is going through. I don't know how much more of this I can take. :cry: This is a nightmare.

[LTR]

52. That is sad

And it shows that we are taking the wrong approach in the war with Iraq.

These types of terrorists are who Bush should have gone after. But I guess the "War on Terra" had to be sidestepped for this Iraqi ego trip.

This shit has got to stop.

[in_cog_ni_to]

56. Damn it.

My condolences to his family and friends. May he rest in peace.

[opihimoimoi]

61. We did some Sicko things to the Prisoners, excused by some play

with "words". Now look, gave them "License" to do terrible things to us/our people.

See what nakedness, Attack dogs, chains, whips, sleep depravation, loud rock music, etc will get you?

Rummy is responsible, he and the First Idiot who allowed the torture of prisoners. Those pictures of smiling guards tormenting prisoners carries a horrible price.

Only now does the Rummy guys get it. I hope they sleep well tonight.

To Rush: "Its only a frat prank man, das all. Whats the big deal"

[outinforce]

73. Terrible Prices

"Those pictures of smiling guards tormenting prisoners carries a horrible price."

Yes.

And those pictures of people jumping 110 stories to their death carry a terrible price, too.

It seems to me that once a person starts down the path of "excusing" a terrible action because of "pictures", that person soon discovers s/he is on a two-way street.

[indigo32]

86. I don't excuse anything

but I wonder whether you think a terrible price has not already been paid for those 9/11 deaths. Exactly how many people have to die to pay back those deaths? Plus I thought we were trying to prevent FUTURE attacks (albiet in a ridulous way)... not paying folks back like the bastards videotaping beheadings of innocent people. We wouldn't be much better than them would we if it was.

[outinforce]

113. You Miss My Point

actually, you make my point.

I never said that I had any idea how many people have to die to pay back the deaths that occurred on 9/11/01.

What I said was that if someone is going to say that the people who killed Paul Johnson were somehow justified in their actions because of the images of people being torturted at the hands of Americans, then that person must also be prepared to concede, I think, that the pictures of people jumping to their deaths on 9/11/01 also have a terrible price.

I have never attempted to say that the people who killed Paul Johnson were in anyway justified in thier actions.

I have, I think, been quite clear in saying that they -- and they alone -- are responsible for what they did.

SO I do not have to try to answer the question of how many people need to die to pay back the deaths that occurred on 9/11/01.

I think the real question you might want to address to those who seem to think that the pictures of toture from Abu Gharib carry a terrible prioce is this: Juat how many Americans wqill need to be beheaded in order to atone for those pictures?

[TankLV]

174. OK now - for one more time:

Iraq had ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION = NOTHING TO DO - WITH 911!

Do you understand that?

No, of course you don't, by proof of your ridiculuous statement.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

90. Sure. Let's cut off someone's head.

Because of the "nakedness, Attack dogs, chains, whips, sleep depravation, loud rock music".

Seems reasonable to me.

[Bandit]

156. What would you do to get them to stop torturing your people?

What extremely shocking thing would you try to do to get the attention of a foreign giant that was systemically abusing and humiliating your countrymen? Do you think they should just not do anything? What is their option here?

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

167. Publicize the torturing. Pictures.

Not start cutting off peoples' heads. Pure evil and unexcusable. It is flat out stupid to think that beheading people is their only option.

[bpilgrim]

165. or RAPE, TORURE and MURDER

or how bout doing it to CHILDREN... and then forcing their MOTHERS to WATCH.

and we got it all on dvd!

peace

[rasputin1952]

66. My heart goes out to his family...

Now...if the SOB's would quit showing the damn file footage all damn day.

Friggin' al Qaeda are all cowards anyway, don't even have the guts to show their faces...some great justice and pride there! May they rot in hell!

:grr:

[Democracy Died 2004]

80. Man so many people

really give a shit about this?
Westerners have been beheaded in Saudi before this for just screwing, and that was sponsored by the religious authority which has as much control<more possibly> than the ruling party. Stop thinking like sheeples and realize that the one and only solution is to get the hell out of other countries business. we are not a frigging empire for gawds sake.

[grl2watch]

81. Condolences to his family n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

92. "Bring it on!", he said. And, they are.

Now that he's filled the ranks of the lunatic zealots by invading a prostrate nation, torturing prisoners and killing thousands of their people.

I'm sure we'll get crocodile tears and constipated faces from smirk and company while they try to spin a brutal murder into an indication of the necessity for yet more war complete with flag-waving pleas to "stay the course".

[Democracy Died 2004]

94. Westerners have

been beheaded before in Saudi. Why has no one shown "Shock" at that? And these were public beheadings sponsored by the religious authority in Saudi which has more power than the ruling monarchy..He went there and stayed during this period of anti American sentiment, what the hell did he expect?

[outinforce]

124. So, You Are Saying

"He went there and stayed during this period of anti American sentiment, what the hell did he expect?"

Help me out here, please.

Because I think I hear you saying that Paul Johnson either deserved his death or contributed to his death.

What are your views on rape, if I might be so bold as to ask?

[Democracy Died 2004]

175. I am sorry

you equate rape to this incident. That kinda goes to the theory that they wanted to be raped? is that your assumption? For over 2 months now the Saudi government has broadcast warnings that it could not protect westerners. that was my point. don't really get the rape connection must be a boring afternoon for some people.

[TankLV]

177. That he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, indeed contributed

to his own death.

Was it his "fault"? No. Was he responsible? Yes.

He could have left.

If I choose to go to a bank machine in the middle of the night and get robbed - I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING THE DECISION TO GO TO THAT PARTICULAR MACHINE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT!

Was it my fault I got robbed? NO. But I am the master of myself, and if I use my brain correctly, I could have weighed the likely results of the choices I make, and CHOOSE WISELY. The unfortunate fellow DID NOT CHOOSE WISELY.

He is not to "blame". But he is ultimately responsible for his own fate.

[ArkDem]

102. The Bush administration will be doing this more and more

frequently as the election nears.

[Fone Book]

145. We are fighting the "War on Terror" the wrong way

Bush thinks we can win through a war of attrition. We can't. We can only win by creating a counter-ideology; a progressive Islam that can move the Arab world into the 21st century and totally destroy the fundamentalist perversion of Islam from which this stems. Their strength lies not in their numbers, their strength... it is their faith and their faith alone that gives them their power. You have to fight their perverse beliefs if you want to fight (and win) the "War on Terror".

[Q]

164. BUSH* DECLARED 'WAR' ON THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST...

...and this is the result of such insane actions.

- Impeach Bush* now and stop the insanity and needless bloodshed.

[graham67]

178. MSNBC.com

Unconfirmed report that his body has been found 25 miles north of Riyadh.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5196406/

[spanone]

200. unconfirmed and untrue. saturday 9:36 pm. (CST) no body.

[RetroLounge]

188. Wow. This thread should be archived and brought out

at the great unveiling.

or maybe it has already started...

RL

[Dardi]

206. The great what?

What is that?