We are 'Technodrunk'...and our 'Technodependency' will Doom us

[indigobusiness]

One thing that has worries me is the degrading influence of those that would 'modernize' the world.

Primitive culture should be cherished and preserved, in my opinion.

I'm reminded of Reagan's view that all countries should be like the good ole USA. We were doing them a favor, I guess, in Micronesia when we payed them for A-Bomb testing on their Atolls. They sat on porches and piled up Budweiser cans until the money ran out...by then they had forgotten who they had been before.

I'm also reminded of the American Indians that drove their new, govt money Cadillacs until they ran out of gas...then walked away.

We lose so much in our fascination with convenience and
technoliving. We are divorcing ourselves from the natural world. If things break down, and our technodependent system fails us... it will be those that live simply that will carry one. We will be screwed.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. It helps to know how to use a hoe

Me, I'd love to build a little self-sufficient eco-friendly compound to live in.

[indigobusiness]

7. "A hard row to hoe"...how many ways have you heard this butchered?

Nobody seems to get this expression correct. I've heard some hilarious bastardizations of this saying by journalists, anchors, writers, and people that should know better. The most common is "hard road to hoe"...Wish I could remember the funnier ones. I should start a thread on this.

RE: "Me, I'd love to build a little self-sufficient eco-friendly compound to live in."...I've had that dream all of my life. If I get the slightest chance now, I'm there.

[frankly_fedup2]

64. That's what I have been trying to tell my husband!

We live in the Blue Ridge Mountains in a small town, but you can still get lost in the woods around here.

If any of you watched "Surviver Africa," or "Surviver All Stars," and you saw Big Tom . . . let's just say I live a few miles from big Tom, and I do not think my accent is as thick as his.

Anyway, in some ways, I feel safer here than in an urban area; however, everything the terrorists hate is on the east coast, less than 6 hours from where we live, so I probably have a false sense of security, although a little compound in the woods would make me feel better too.

If they hit us with a dirty bomb, it will really all depend on which way the wind blows. That simple.

[BlueEyedSon]

2. No, we are "Petrodrunk" and our "Petrodependency" will kill us.

And the Saudis are stoked.

[indigobusiness]

3. Petrodependency is just an aspect of Technodependency.

The House of Saud is on its last leg, seems to me.

Saudi Arabia soon to be called Arabia, methinks.

[Mizmoon]

4. They're going to call it Petrolistan eom

[BlueEyedSon]

17. How about "East Texas"?

:)

[indigobusiness]

75. ...the new map...

[Deja Q]

68. Other way around, surely?

We need oil from our technological playthings (which includes so-called "business" (the pushing of money)) to energy to run our refrigerators and plastic to make mouldings and everything else with.

No petroleum = no modern society in very way as we know it.

Bring back the "icebox" and covered wagons, and if coal continues to go up in price, even trains won't be economical...

Mother Nature is having an affair on Father Time with Uncle Greed...

[Loonman]

5. That's awful funny

An internet posting made on a computer about being technodrunk.

[indigobusiness]

13. I'm just not in denial.

Are you?

[MUSTANG_2004]

6. Am I alone here?

In seeing the irony of posting on the internet that primitive culture should be preserved?

[indigobusiness]

8. It's about self-awareness. I fully admit to being caught in the web.

I'm just saying there are serious pitfalls that we should be mindful of. We should be making a concerted effort to be tuned-in to nature.
We are rushing headlong into a sterile world, at great peril.

I was dragged kicking and screaming into the computer age, and there is no denying it is addictve as any drug.

When you are caught in a flood, it is best to know your boat.

[Loonman]

34. No, but we're in denial

Apparently.

[indigobusiness]

56. ...possibly.

You are funny...in denial, maybe, but funny.

[quaker bill]

9. The time for this discussion was a long time ago

70 to 100 years ago and a couple of billion people back.

We have wandered way too far down this alley to turn back now.

Take this first hand from a wetlands ecologist, most people here are quite scared of the natural world, and rightfully so. It would kill them. It may be because I hang out in swamps with gators in them, but my take is that good old mom nature is really not all that damn user-friendly.

Put them on 5 acres, give them some seed and a hoe, and most people here would starve rather quickly.

[indigobusiness]

10. Adjustments are always necessary...regardless.

"Put them on 5 acres, give them some seed and a hoe, and most people here would starve rather quickly."

That is my point..."them" are us.

What unfolds in the future is God's will, I guess, que sera sera, but I am making the point that so much of what we regard as fun and helpful, is actually the root of our own undoing. We are becoming vain, vacuous, and colosally selfish...we are sowing the seeds of our future...we are planting foolishly.

I recall seeing a group of Russian women fighting over a moldy potato, the last thing on the shelves in their local Supermarket.
Don't think that couldn't happen here.

[Blue Wally]

22. Try shopping.........

just before a hurricane or a blizzard.

[indigobusiness]

31. Good example...

The scramble for goods in a real crunch is horrific.

[indigobusiness]

11. I meant insight and understanding of nature on a deep

and fundamental level.

Our ignorance of nature is frightening and adds to our selfpoisoning and foolish abuse of the planet, and mis-use of resources.

[KoKo]

40. When America moved from rural to City and Burbs was when the disconnect

took place. With agri-business we no longer have that much connection to our food or our envirnoment from which it comes. When you don't connect with what you consume, you lose interest.

The last generations who remember what is was like to be connected to the "earth" are getting old. I don't know what will happen when the suburban/burg/exburb matures. :scared: Some don't even know what what
birds sound like, or what the night sky really looks like when there are no city lights to mute the stars.

I worry about the under 35 year olds... But, perhaps we don't need to know these things in a virtual reality world. Computers and Technology will make a huge difference. Something new is coming along in human evolution and I expect those folks who have to deal with it will adapt.

It's the rest of us I worry about!

[TO Kid]

14. You're right about the starving

Because in the pre-technology days most people DID starve. Those who advocate turning away from tech seem to be under the impression that the agrarian past was some sort of pastoral paradise, when in fact the vast majority of people would have preferred the standard of living experienced in places that we would describe as hell-holes. Most people were lucky to survive to the age of forty, and the only ones to make it past fifty were the extremely wealthy. People would die from toothaches, many minor injuries were fatal, and even as recently as a century ago an appendicitis attack was a death sentence.

[indigobusiness]

18. I'm not advocating turning away from tech...

I'm just advocating recognizing the hazards.

I've been to 3rd world countries where people live simply, and they are far happier and less neurotic than we are.

The Spice Islands have no mental illness. Did you know that?
They are self sufficient, happy, and prosperous. Haven't changed much in a long, long time. We could learn a lot from them...especially their philosophy of 'what is good for your you is good for me' and vice-versa. Not one person goes hungry there.

[Skidmore]

12. Amen....

and this is best represented by the fact that any little gizmo you buy these days has a friggin' electronic clock or timer in it. I try to use low wattage/flourescent light bulbs, use the air condition on the hottest few days of summer, installed a programmable thermostat to reduce gas consumption in the winter, carpool to work... Yet the other day I was walking through my house and became completely irritated at the number of totally usely bleeder functions on various items I own. Even when I turn the contraptions off, they aren't off. If the electricity goes off, I can't cook, unless it's summer. If the gas goes out in the winter time, we freeze. We depend on city water lines for water.

We are a nations of wusses.

[indigobusiness]

15. Your kind of conscientious living

would heal a lot of ills, if it were embraced on a mass scale.

The sort of world view that understands the wisdom in this sort of perspective is what I'm talking about. If the Titanic of public opinion change be turned by realizing the folly of our consumptive waste, and understand the benefit of conservation of resource, we might have a chance.

[OKNancy]

16. No thank you

If the right people can get political power, I'm sure that there is some way to preserve the environment and still have all the wonderful modern conveniences we have now. This is especially important for women, who in the past had a great deal of boring drudge work.

Things I don't want to live without:
Computer
Telephone
modern sewage system
air conditioning ( Oklahoma !!)
car
dishwasher, clothes dryer and other labor saving devices
garbage disposal
tampons
advil
c.d. player and all the wonderful music I can have now
and many more........

People have been saying things are out of control for 100 years.

[indigobusiness]

19. Why do people view this as an all of nothing trade-off?

That was never suggested, and not the point.

[FattyMcCraigs]

20. Wow...

Could you be a little MORE fatalistic?

Let's say this Doomsday you are predicting comes about. The power goes out, the phones go dead, your computer explodes into a burst of magical pixie dust. I guess you'd lay down in the centre of your carpet and slowly waste away.

Me? I'd evaluate my options and if I decided being a farmer was the way to go I'd high-tail it to the nearest library or book store, and borrow some books on agriculture. Or if that wasn't an option I'd talk to at least 1 or 2 of the other ~80,000 people in this city and see if we couldn't work something out together. We may not be as comfortable in the wilderness, but we do have a few millenia of collective education on our side.

Even cavemen had to start somewhere, unless you think potaytah farming was a gift from God, and they didn't have tempered steel shovels and aluminum rakes to work with.

Pessimism, cynicism, ignorance, and apathy will be our doom. Not technology nor our dependence upon it.

[indigobusiness]

21. Fatalism is just accepting fate as inevitable.

I am just reading the handwriting on the wall. People tend to face the future with their eyes on the rear-view mirror. The signs of our self-crippling through techno-fixes and dependency
are everywhere...just open your eyes and look. I have been around enough to know that folks who are self-sufficient and know about practical,hands-on living will be the ones who are able to deal with a system failure
in this country. Remember how cluless so many people were when the electricity went out in California? What will happen when Lake Mead is dust (probably next week)...

People said the same thing, years ago, when I warned of the rising fascism in America.

[Tsiyu]

23. Actually

Indigo, you are so damned right about this.

It's hard for me to remember that folks don't live the way we do, even though we are not "back to the landers" we do grow our own herbs and veggies (with limited success due to deer) and live back in the woods. I keep horses in case gas gets hard to come by. We have everything but a water supply should we lose power ( pump is electric) but there is water nearby. The simple life does not appeal to most, however, and I would fear for my little family if we lived in a more urban area as most folks would be clueless without Kroger.
Up here, I can get fresh eggs from one neighbor and veggies from another and so many people grow their own hogs, turkeys, etc for meat. These skills may be lost in some populations, but the folks in my area will be just fine should anything disastrous happen.

Technology is a sucking machine, but I do enjoy my computer and the kids are addicted to video games. I justify the latter by assuring myself that my little warriors will be well-trained little dem rebels...

[indigobusiness]

24. That is the paradox, the enigma, the irony...

It is a tender trap that is softening us up...when/if the rug is pulled out from under us...watch out.

Everybody loves to be pampered, I guess, but that doesn't mean it is not a foolish indulgence.

We enjoy our luxury at the expense of the resources of the entire world. Those resources are not infinite...at some point we will have to pay the piper.

on edit-- forgive me for not welcoming you to
DU,buddyhollysghost...and for not applauding your life-style...your kids are lucky.

[donhakman]

25. Kazinski the unibomber felt the same way

and no technolgy could find him.

[indigobusiness]

27. He knew that someday soon it will be able to find anyone...

He is a brilliant man. His methods of disobedience are abominable.

What a waste he didn't chennel his gifts in a positive, productive way.

[0007]

62. Ted Kaczynski the Unibomber and his Manifesto

This is indeed worth a read. Objectively Mr. Kaczynski was right on, this is a rather long read but well worth the effort.

The Unibomber Manifesto
INTRODUCTION

1. The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. They have greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who live in "advanced" countries, but they have destabilized society, have made life unfulfilling, have subjected human beings to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Third World to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural world. The continued development of technology will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject human beings to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural world, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in "advanced" countries.

2. The industrial-technological system may survive or it may break down. If it survives, it MAY eventually achieve a low level of physical and psychological suffering, but only after passing through a long and very painful period of adjustment and only at the cost of permanently reducing human beings and many other living organisms to engineered products and mere cogs in the social machine. Furthermore, if the system survives, the consequences will be inevitable: There is no way of reforming or modifying the system so as to prevent it from depriving people of dignity and autonomy.

more......

http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~rahul/Misc/unibomber.html

[indigobusiness]

66. How could he think harming people

would help him make his case? That, I abhor and will never understand. But, he makes a lot of sense, otherwise.

[Tsiyu]

29. Thanks

We aren't really very productive these days. But I am a firm believer that doing nothing sometimes is a very good thing. My younger kids go to school 3/4ths of the year on a brutal schedule, they come to Mama's place in the woods during the summer to chill out and have many mental health days.
But, we need a barn and there are still seeds to plant and campsites to carve out along the paths, and ferns to save from the ever-growing briar population ( they remind me of repukes- those briars- i pop them with a shovel with great abandon, imagining Cheney or Ashy or Rummy).
My main concern is that kids have no clue where their food comes from. The Kelloggs commercials where the boxes of cereal grow on trees totally pissed me off and freaked me out. Are people this removed from reality?

[Xithras]

26. I, for one, welcome our new computer overlords

Maybe it's a side effect of being a genuine geek, but I've never really had a problem with the increasing pervasiveness of technology in our world. Technology makes us smarter, technology makes us faster, technology makes us healthier and allows us to travel to the edges of the earth and beyond into space. Without technology, we're nothing but bald monkeys who figured out irrigation.

How old are you? Think about it this way...if you're over 40, you'd be dead RIGHT NOW without technology. Mother nature is a harsh parent, the inventor of Darwinism and the killer of the weak. When you say you'd rather not have technology, you're saying that you want to return to the days of 50% infant mortality, the days when birth defects were a death sentence. The days when women were enslaved by their children and families (remember, birth control is an invention of the pharmaceutical industry...a technology) would return, and womens positions in society would be diminished. You'd return us to the days when a ruptured appendix, the common flu, or even a simple CAVITY could be life ending illnesses. Without technology, you'd return to the days when people lived their entire lives within a few miles of their birthplace, eliminating communication and increasing xenophobia. Without technology we'd return to a world where the strong lead, and the weak obey. Technology is the great democratizer, putting the same knowledge and communication capabilities within the hands of the strong and weak equally.

We tend to romanticize what we cannot have, and simple living is no different. There's a good reason why primitive peoples often abandon their ways in favor of technology, when the option is presented to them. They want to LIVE. They don't want to break their backs hand-hoeing a field or wonder whether their children will starve this week. They want to enjoy their lives, and not spend every waking moment working to continue those lives. They want freedom, and technology will give them that.

[indigobusiness]

28. Hail Caesar...

It is human to submit to the seduction of ease.

The only societies free of crime and psychosis are primitive.

We are enjoying the fruits at the peak of the curve, it is the postpeak downslide that will be the reckoning...and people will realize, too late, they were led down a primrose path.

[Xithras]

30. You assume there will be a peak.

Technology is not oil, and there is no gushing technological fountainhead threatening to dry up one day and leave us suffering from electron withdrawals. Technology is here to stay, and will only become more ubiquitous as time goes on.

[indigobusiness]

35. Resources are finite and have been squandered.

Don't kid yourself that technology isn't dependent on oil. Plastics are petro based and are a fundamental link in the technological chain. Oil is not essential but my original point was how technology is changing us in the cushy first world: psychologically as well as mentally, physically, and socially.
We are being transformed and are weaker for it. The average college graduate graduates at a level equal to a high school graduate 40 years ago. We have been hooked and are being reeled in.

As far as peaks go, everything is cyclical and peaks always revert to valleys, that is one of the lessons of nature that is lost on us. We see things linearly, and see our future advance in terms of our past good fortune.

[Xithras]

45. *sigh* You really are a pessimist.

There are infinite resources in an infinite universe, but that's rather beside the point.

Technology isn't dependent on oil. Plastics aren't even dependent on oil. We have bioplastics that are generated completely from plant based materials that could be marketed today if the world would accept the slight price increase. When oil vanishes, bioplastics will take their place.

And my point was that it's a GOOD thing that technology is changing us. Technology takes care of (or at least eases) our mundane tasks like food production and communication, giving us something that humans have never had at any previous point in history...free time. We use that time to learn, to grow, and to invent, and to generally improve our quality of lives. We are weakened as a society because we choose to allow the weak to live, something that prior generations couldn't do but that technology has allowed us to. Eliminating technology, or even reducing it, means reducing our quality of life and is a death sentence for many people.

As for your college graduate remark, I say prove it. I've seen similar allegations leveled before, and in every case they've been debunked as urban legends & myth.

Your peaks and valleys reference also shows a lack of understanding of natural history. The fossil & genetic records on this planet actually show that life thrives unerringly until it is acted on by an outside force (ice ages, meteors, disease). While humankind is still susceptible to these outside forces and our civilization could still be brought down by one of them, the same can be said for any primitive population. Outside forces are a threat to ALL people, irregardless of wealth, technology, or empire. If anthing, technology will give us a better chance of surviving such a cataclysm by providing cures, building shelters, or even deflecting incoming threats.

[indigobusiness]

48. I won't fact check for you...believe what you wish...

But your assertion that "There are infinite resources in an infinite universe" is hilarious in its import. While that assertion might be true, we only can use the part of that infinite resource we can access or understand. That sort of thinking killed off the Buffalo, a good example of our penchant for squandering.

Plastics was just an example, not a lynch-pin of the argument.

I have a better grasp of natural history than you seem to think...and I'm aware that life will, in all probability, perservere, regardless of what happens to man. The point is the threat to the current paradigm. In case you haven't noticed, paradigms are shifting all around us. We are being bitch-slapped and it is just begining.

Getting back to the garden isn't some quaint notion, it is a wake-up call we ignore at great peril.

[Independent_Minded]

32. UNA-BOMBER BUMP

:)

[porphyrian]

33. Tool-Using Mammals

Technology is merely another form of tool we've created to help us survive. As a tool, it is only as useful or destructive as the one employing it. Neither technology, nor our dependence on tools, will doom us - but our lack of understanding of our universe and the consequences of our actions on a universal scale very well may. In fact, I would go so far as to argue that our use of technology is responsible not only for our continuing survival, but for our understanding of the universe (what little there is) to date.

You silly luddite.

[TO Kid]

36. Exactly

Humans are astonishingly frail creatures. Our muscles are useless against most of the other critters out there, our bodies have little insulation, we have weak jaws and small teeth, and our claws break when we use them. The only thing keeping us on this planet are the enormous brains we were born with.

[blindpig]

37. you might be on to something

since we're using our enormous brains to exterminate any species that might tend to dine on us, and plenty others besides. Except for the invertebrates. The grand experiment in selective breeding that we are conducting upon them is coming back to bite us in the ass. An unintended consequence of technology.

[indigobusiness]

39. blindpig, a special reward for your contribution...

[blindpig]

43. um, my Latin's a bit rusty n/t

[indigobusiness]

51. Something to do with

The Invisible Hand

[indigobusiness]

38. Calling technology a tool is silly...it has become a force...

like a tide that provides a catch, but drowns fishermen in the process. Would you call nuclear waste a tool? It is the ultimate poison and a byproduct of the tool of technology. Medicine is poison in the wrong dosage, and perhaps nuclear waste will become a useful resource someday (though I doubt it). My point is our reach has exceeded our grasp. Our understanding of the universe will always be limited by our perception and narrow perspective of all that is. Technology helps us, of course, but it has the real potential to do us in. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Call me a Luddite if you wish, but name calling is the province of fools.

[porphyrian]

41. *sigh*

Technology is a tool, the force is within those who are developing it. If you don't like the direction it's going, start developing alternatives rather than prophecizing doom.

"Would you call nuclear waste a tool?"
No, and I wouldn't call it technology, either. We have created tools which produce nuclear waste without also producing tools capable of effectively dealing with that waste. That is a human failing, not a technological one. Behold, the product of market-driven research! Want a cure for cancer? Make it worth more than the profits of treating the symptoms.

"My point is our reach has exceeded our grasp."
Yes, this is a result of human irresponsibility, not technology.

"Our understanding of the universe will always be limited by our perception and narrow perspective of all that is."
Right, which is further reason to develop tools which help expand our perception and broaden our perspectives, that we may better understand our role in the universe.

"Technology helps us, of course, but it has the real potential to do us in."
You have the potential to do me in, but you haven't, and (unless I really infuriate you) you probably won't. Just because a tool can be used destructively does not render that tool useless, nor does it make it wrong or evil. Again, if we use our tools responsibly, it can be a good thing.

"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Yes, but this applies to the hand, not the tool.

"Call me a Luddite if you wish, but name calling is the province of fools."
Hey, I'm not a stupid freeper here. Don't try to use that backhanded way of calling me a fool while chastising me for calling you a luddite (Ludd·ite Pronunciation: 'l&-"dIt Function: noun
Etymology: perhaps from Ned Ludd, 18th century Leicestershire workman who destroyed machinery : one of a group of early 19th century English workmen destroying laborsaving machinery as a protest; broadly : one who is opposed to especially technological change).

Hypocrite.

[indigobusiness]

46. Your patronizing sighs aside,

as well as your twisted logic and petty name-calling.

Hypocrite? How? I'm not opposed to technological change...I just recognize the hazards and hope for responsibility.

And I don't need your defining terms for me, I read Swift before you were born (who introduced the term "Luddite", for the most part, to the 20 century).

-"My point is our reach has exceeded our grasp."
Yes, this is a result of human irresponsibility, not technology.-

Technology is not on trial here, but I won't explain that again.

-"Would you call nuclear waste a tool?"
No, and I wouldn't call it technology, either. We have created tools which produce nuclear waste without also producing tools capable of effectively dealing with that waste. That is a human failing, not a technological one. Behold, the product of market-driven research! Want a cure for cancer? Make it worth more than the profits of treating the symptoms.-

Nuclear waste is a good example of the hazardous byproducts of technology...how we poison ourselves by our foolish use of technology


We can't even begin to understand the quantum reality or string theory. Richard Feynman said "if anyone says they understand quantum reality, they don't". We will always be limited in our view of reality. Knives are tools that heal and kill...the wheel is technology for crying out loud.

-"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Yes, but this applies to the hand, not the tool.-

Another example of how you missed the point, entirely.

I'm happy to listen to a cogent, meaningful refutation...otherwise, stop with your smug, misguided nonsense.

[porphyrian]

47. Nice pissing match...

...but verbosity on your part doesn't make you any more right, or me any more wrong. Nor does your age or your assumptions about mine grant you any respect you haven't earned. Thanks for playing, though!

[indigobusiness]

49. Heres what I think of your petty style of word war...

...verbosity, indeed.

[porphyrian]

50. Hah! Great pic! - n/t

[blindpig]

42. it's not all or nothing

as some of the posters on this thread imply. The problem is that we use technology like crazy monkeys, doing things simply because they can be done. The problems engendered by this behavior are greatly magnified by consumerism, the engine of capitalism. We are mindlessly wasting our natural capital while fouling our nest simultaneously.
That said, I don't believe that it must be this way.
I can envision an Earth with a population of 2 billion humans and half the land left to nature. Where computers and telecommunications substitute for hierarchal organization and economy of scale.Where industry is a closed system and nothing is wasted. I don't know how to get there but I believe we could. And the longer we jerk around the longer and harder that road will be.

[indigobusiness]

52. Precisely...

I could've saved myself a headache if I had consulted you first.

I just hope we don't wait til Earth looks like Mars to collectively view our planet as precious.

[MadHound]

44. Three days away

That's how long it would take for our supposedly civil society to descend into anarchy and madness, three days. For that is the average amount of how much food is in the collective posession of any urban area.

And what is sad is that even given the proper tools, most modern Americans wouldn't have a clue as to how to eke out a living for themselves. Growing crops is more that throwing some seeds in the dirt and watering them. It is more about getting in touch with nature and the circle of life, something that has been left out of most people's existence for a long while.

Of course, we all could be living this nightmare scenario where there is no electricity or high tech. There is an interesting phenomenon where the entire planet changes polarity, from the micro to the macro level. One of the side effects is that none of our electrical devices would work, for years, decades, or generations. We would be thrust back into the heart of the nineteenth century, most of us completely unprepared. Ironic that the so called developing nations would survive this event in much better shape than the technologically sophisticated ones, since they are much more familiar with accomplishing lifes' basics without electricity. Now the last time this polarity change occured was 75,000 years ago, and each change happens aprox. every 75,000 years. So we are due, any time now. Are you ready?

[indigobusiness]

53. We have a smug, arrogant, false sense of security...

Imagine LA a week after the Supermarkets dry up?

The planet is in the midst of a polarity shift as we speak. Articles abound. But it takes a long time to complete. Doesn't happen quickly. The period when magnetism is indeterminate is when things are really gnarly. The magnetic field that protects us will not be there.

[Gregorian]

54. It's really something to think about. We have a good movie here.

I was raised to turn out the lights when not in the room. I live in a neighborhood of mostly republican goon who just think electricity is a god given right. They have floodlights going all night. And sometimes in the daytime. And they drive everywhere for the slightest thing, sometimes passing their siblings or partner in their car going the other direction. It's totally obscene.
Yesterday I was at the post office, and they had a computer problem. They couldn't handle my package. They had to put me on hold until they were back on line.
But here's something I don't hear much talk about. That is the energy useage that the military embibes. Can anyone imagine how much gas we've used in this "war" against Iraq and Afghanistan? All of the people who've tried so hard in their lives to spare and save and be frugal are negated by a couple of days of thousands of Humvees racing through deserts. Just like my neighborhood, where I have been offended by the careless energy useage of the yellow ribbon flying goofballs.
We are sitting atop an unstable situation. And it will fall over. I have a farm, but I have no idea how to use it to survive. I feel like an idiot. Because it was only 100 years ago that indians roamed this property on their daily routine.
I'd love to see the movie that shows the life we would face, starting one day after the power goes off.
I believe that anything made outside of the local community is the cause for using energy beyond our means, and wars as well. Because anytime we don't make it, someone else does. And unless that balance is done responsibly, someone is forced to do something they don't want to do. Such as have military bases forced upon their land.
This discussion is also at the heart of why we are where we are in politics today. The combination of living beyond our means, and the number of people who are here doing it.

[indigobusiness]

55. You Produce...

I'll Direct.




(welcome to DU...good post)

[sendero]

57. Hmmmm.....

.... that is a point of view and not one I *entirely* disagree with. But IMHO, technology (and it's cohort, science) have ongoing huge potential for solving new problems as they arise.

Personally, I'm a lot more worried about USA social and economic constructs that are perilously close to collapse.

The county is divided in a 'culture war' that seems to get more strident each passing year. Our economy has been goosed with free money by the Federal Reserve for years now and it still does not look too good. Lax credit has put many assets like housing into the hands of people who really cannot afford them, thanks to a free-for-all secondary mortgage market (Ginnie and Freddie) that will eventually result in a real estate crash and a scenario that is putridly reminiscent of the S&L debacle of the late 80s. Only it will probably be much worse since way too many Americans have every dollar they posess tied up in their house.

I'm a *lot* more worried about that than I am any 'failure of technology'. And because of that I have purchased my place in the country and I'm working almost every weekend to make it a place I can live in the next few years.

[indigobusiness]

59. The widening gulf between the haves and have-nots

is fueled by exploitation. In the long term that will haunt us all.

It is what it is...people have a hard time pulling back and viewing it impersonally, unbiased, and in the long term.

Cures are often painfull...the symptoms are everywhere...we need curing.

[sendero]

60. I agree with you...

... concentration of wealth is not good for the economy overall, besides being fundamentally unjust. It is definitely another piece of the deteriorating puzzle.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

58. Oh how I pine for those good old Medieval days!

Huge piles of shit, mud, wenches, mutton. It was facinating.

[indigobusiness]

61. You'll be right at home...

When things are pushed over the edge.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

70. Good. I look forward to the impending doom. And the big piles of shit.

Mabye I can get fitted with those teeth made out of little rocks. Might not be able to eat corn, but then corn is probably doomed as well. I wonder if soup will be doomed. I do enjoy soup, especially the kind with the little grilled hamburgers in it.

[indigobusiness]

71. Lots of free fertilizer

for your rock garden.

[misanthrope]

63. Ever read...

..."In the Absence of the Sacred" by Jerry Mander? Sounds like you would dig it.

After that, pick up "Into the Wild" by Jon Krakauer. It'll cool your jets.

By the way, the Internet is a funny place to espouse NeoLudditic viewpoints.

[indigobusiness]

65. Why? I'm just reading the tea leaves

and opening a discussion.

I drive a car, but make certain my brakes aren't failing.

What's the difference? And why does that make me a Neoluddite?

Anyone that ignores the perils of the modern world is an Antiluddite, I suppose.

Thanks for the book tips.

seen this?

I'm reading "Blue Gold" and basically, we're screwed


in terms of the world's water supply. Most major aquifiers are already depleted and the rest will dry up in 25 years or less, and major rivers like the Colorado are so overly dammed and diverted that they don't even reach their former destinations, like the Gulf of California. It takes 101,000 gallons of water to make one car.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x10683

[misanthrope]

72. Who said...

..."NeoLuddite" was necessarily "bad?" It just means that you have a suspicion of technology. No one assigned a value judgement to it.

And in light of your "Blue Gold" reference, you might want to check out "Cadillac Desert."

I'm assuming you've already delved into the Edward Abbey stuff.

[indigobusiness]

73. No, I'm hardly expert in my Ludditeness

I just have an instinctual sense of misguidedness.

Thanks...I'll try to catch up.

[indigobusiness]

69. IN THE ABSENCE OF THE SACRED By Jerry Mander

Mander takes issue with the widespread notion that technology is neutral and that only people determine whether its effects are good or bad. "This idea would be merely preposterous if it were not so widely accepted, and so dangerous," he writes. Because technologies contain certain inherent qualities, they are not neutral. In the case of nuclear energy, for example, it doesn't matter who is in charge because the dangers inherent in the process are the same: the long- term effects of waste, the safety hazards, the lack of local controls, etc.

The belief that technology is neutral is only one aspect of what Mander calls "the pro-technology paradigm" -- "a system of perceptions that make us blind and passive when it comes to technology." It's a cultural mindset that has emerged over time as we've become more and more accustomed to living with technology. It's also a product of the optimistic, even utopian, claims that invariably accompany the introduction of new technology. Another factor contributing to our passivity in the face of technology, Mander contends, is the habit of evaluating it in strictly personal terms. By stressing the benefits of technology in our personal lives -- the machine vacuums our carpets, the television keeps us informed, the car gets us around, the computer allows us to work from home, etc. -- we make little attempt to understand its larger societal and ecological consequences.

What we need, in Mander's view, is a society-wide debate about the costs of technology -- economically, socially, environmentally, and in terms of public health. "In a truly democratic society," he writes "any new technology would be subject to exhaustive debate. That a society must retain the option of declining a technology -- if it deems it harmful -- is basic. As it is now, our spectrum of choice is limited to mere acceptance. The real decisions about technological introduction are made only by one segment of society: the corporate, based strictly on considerations of profit."
---

According to Mander, we are in the midst of "an epic worldwide struggle" between the forces of Western economic development and the remaining native peoples of the planet, whose presence obstructs their progress. The ultimate outcome of this conflict is not hard to predict given that the technological juggernaut inevitably chews up the societies that warn that this path will not work. "Worst of all," Mander concludes, "these are the very people who are best equipped to help us out of our fix, if only we'd let them be and listen to what they say."

[Karenina]

76. Two words...

CELL PHONES

They have PROFOUNDLY CHANGED the way we relate to each other, the definitions of civility and personal boundaries...

[Deja Q]

67. Our oil will doom us. Our technodependency only hastens the end,

especially when we have to industrialize the rest of the world with more oil burning goodies before we can exploit them.

[indigobusiness]

74. We are doomed...DOOMED...

So where's the pizza?

[Tsiyu]

77. Alas, Babylon: Read it too.

Here's another good read for those who want to envision life after US disaster. It's an older book and the main action takes place in sunny Florida, where it might be easier to get veggies to grow year round..

There actually are a lot of folks going back to "Simplicity" ( no, I don't mean Paris Hilton and Nicole Ritchie), Read Mother Earth News, Backwoods Home Magazine, Harrowsmith, Countryside magazine (most are on Internet). There are many internet groups devoted to "getting off the grid" and lots of folks still have all the wacky non-electric stuff they bought from Lehman's for Y2K.

Also, to give you hope, gardening is actually one of the biggest pastimes in the US so I think we could coax a few carrots out of the subdivision. Some communities are turning private property into common usage areas- for gardening etc.

And yeah, there is more horseshit on this farm than I know what to do with, but I don't have to buy fertilizer as long as I live.
It's not nearly as bad as the shit that backs up in the hotels in Alas Babylon, or that would pile up in your town when the sewage backs up. I personally think horse shit has a nonoffensive odor. can't say the same for what comes out of the human - piehole and otherwise.... Read it for yourself, and find some likeminded persons to get you going on that little ecofriendly enclave....

[indigobusiness]

81. I'll put that on my list.

The mass popular delusion does have a contituency of exeption.

I've lived off the grid...best I've ever felt, after no tv for awhile.

Amazing how ones thinking clears.

[Jim Warren]

78. Like it or not

This is an important question and I'd like to see a discussion somewhere on this without people feeling threatened and reacting with sarcasm and glibness.

The times I've initiated similar threads on other boards I've gotten pretty much of the same predictable response IE "i see you're posting this from your mud hut..haha..." It's like the subject is asking people for a withdrawal from their personal investment.

Fuck that. The internet has to be a useful took to communicate more than weight-loss programs, cheap hotels and porn.

For the record: My local dial-up isp cost me less than @10@mo., my monthly electric bill averages $15 and we drive a compact less than 5000 mi.@yr. Our family of three collectively puts more miles on our bicycles than the car.

Sooner or later we'll have to talk.

[indigobusiness]

79. Yep...it's wayyyy beyond personal perpective.

This is a serious issue about a disasterous path we are trapped on.

Glibness and sarcasm are byproducts of the self-indulgence that helps perpetuate the myth that we are on the right track.

I lived in a cabin in the woods once, and though I know we can't collectively shift our thinking overnight, I know how much better off we would be if we did. And how bad it will be if we don't wake up.

You are part of the solution.

[camero]

80. Technodependency is the symptom, not the disease

The disease is the "keep up with the Jones" and "getting ahead of your fellow man" syndrome. It's this disease that brings about the technodependency since when one gets one thing, everybody else wants the same thing though resources are limited.

Technology could be a great help if people learned to share the resources of the earth instead of 5% of the population wanting to gobble up 35% of the world's resources.

Primitive cultures ran as mostly small communes but carried the same risks of abuses of power and tyranny as in any other doctrine. Mostly from tribal or other heads not wanting to adequately share the resources of the tribe.

[indigobusiness]

82. The psychology of the "individual" and the resulting competiveness

is fundamentally different from a culture aware of "interconnectedness".

[camero]

84. I agree with that

I just had to make the point that the individualist mindset is what is dooming us and not technology alone and that all cultures are capable of either.

We need more than just a rejection of technology but a paradigm shift in thought. That the earth's resources are limited and this includes technology and money.

[indigobusiness]

92. Absolutely, but I never suggested a rejection of technology

but an awareness of its impact on us, and a responsible approach towards it. The paradigm is shifting as evidenced by the example of those who embrace a healthy, somewhat self-sufficient lifestyle.

Technology got rolling with the invention of the wheel...there is no putting the genie back in the bottle. The pendulum just always seem to swing too far.

[camero]

93. Indeed it does

Funny how we (we as in as a society) reject things such as the atom smasher to work toward superconductivity and cleaner energy while arable land and clean water becomes scarcer and scarcer because of agri-business and the privatization of water.

I think it is Germany that is working towards eliminating nuclear power as an energy source while trying to find alternative ways of using energy.

Part of the paradigm shift has to be land reform to keep land from falling into fewer and fewer hands so people can be more self-sufficient. It's great that it is starting now. Hopefully it will continue.

[indigobusiness]

94. You make a great case

Now that Lake Mead and Lake Powell are drying up, the shock of the real is about to bitchslap our spoiled society. It might just knock enough sense into us before we implode. Doubtful, though.

[laruemtt]

83. the less you need

the more powerful you are and the freer you are. stuff of any kind is like anchors around our necks making us unable to move freely ot make decisions without first having to consider how it's going to affect our "stuff." my 18 1/2 year-old stepdaughter is in deep trouble. she can't leave the house for a few hours without making several trips to her jeep to fill it up with "stuff." i have not been successful in explaining the foolishness of her "stuff" addiction.

[laruemtt]

85. the less you need

the more powerful you are and the freer you are. stuff of any kind is like anchors around our necks making us unable to move freely ot make decisions without first having to consider how it's going to affect our "stuff." my 18 1/2 year-old stepdaughter is in deep trouble. she can't leave the house for a few hours without making several trips to her jeep to fill it up with "stuff." i have not been successful in explaining the foolishness of her "stuff" addiction.

[laruemtt]

86. the less you need

the more powerful you are and the freer you are. stuff of any kind is like anchors around our necks making us unable to move freely ot make decisions without first having to consider how it's going to affect our "stuff." my 18 1/2 year-old stepdaughter is in deep trouble. she can't leave the house for a few hours without making several trips to her jeep to fill it up with "stuff." i have not been successful in explaining the foolishness of her "stuff" addiction.

[laruemtt]

87. the less you need

the more powerful you are and the freer you are. stuff of any kind is like anchors around our necks making us unable to move freely ot make decisions without first having to consider how it's going to affect our "stuff." my 18 1/2 year-old stepdaughter is in deep trouble. she can't leave the house for a few hours without making several trips to her jeep to fill it up with "stuff." i have not been successful in explaining the foolishness of her "stuff" addiction.

[laruemtt]

88. the less you need

the more powerful you are and the freer you are. stuff of any kind is like anchors around our necks making us unable to move freely ot make decisions without first having to consider how it's going to affect our "stuff." my 18 1/2 year-old stepdaughter is in deep trouble. she can't leave the house for a few hours without making several trips to her jeep to fill it up with "stuff." i have not been successful in explaining the foolishness of her "stuff" addiction.

[laruemtt]

89. the less you need

the more powerful you are and the freer you are. stuff of any kind is like anchors around our necks making us unable to move freely ot make decisions without first having to consider how it's going to affect our "stuff." my 18 1/2 year-old stepdaughter is in deep trouble. she can't leave the house for a few hours without making several trips to her jeep to fill it up with "stuff." i have not been successful in explaining the foolishness of her "stuff" addiction.

[indigobusiness]

91. Emphatic aren't you?

But so right on.

Carlin does a great bit on "stuff".

[laruemtt]

90. oops,ooops, oops, and more ooops!

sorry. it kept saying it timed out................

[indigobusiness]

95. sometimes, less is more

that happens