Nader/Dean debate on NOW on CSPAN 2

[Dookus]

for those who don't get CSPAN 3 and couldn't watch it this morning.

[LostInAnomie]

Thanks dogg

[LostInAnomie]

1. Dean is kicking ass at this moment

right ......... NOW!

[Dookus]

3. Yeah...

and Nader changed the subject entirely without addressing the charges Dean laid out.

[mzmolly]

18. I noticed that. He does that alot.

Nader is full of ideas, but no practical ideas for the implementation of said ideas.

[Oddman]

2. Why on earth is this debate taking place?

Thank god there are morans who
will still vote for me.

[Dookus]

4. I think it's great

Dean and Nader have an overlapping base of supporters. Dean is well-qualified to show how ridiculous Nader's candidacy is.

[Oddman]

10. I agree that Dean is mopping the floor with Nader

But why was it even done?


Do your patriotic duty – piss on a Hummer!

[Dookus]

11. It's done

because, as I said, they have an overlapping base. If Dean can convince a sizable number of those people that Nader's candidacy is inane, then that's a good thing.

Dean, to his great credit, is committed to helping defeat Bush. The only way that will happen is if Kerry beats him.

[progressivebydesign]

5. Read some quote from the debate..

..I can honestly say that I wish that asshole Nader would climb back into his hole and leave us alone. He has some fucking nerve acting like he's a man of the people. Expensive suits..

[many a good man]

6. Seen it. Nader mops the floor

with Dean.

I gotta say, NOW THIS IS POLITICAL DEBATE. Witty, spirited, well-argued.

Don't you wish you lived in a country where Kerry represented the right and Nader the left?

[mzmolly]

7. NO way! Dean mopped the floor with Nader and his hypocritical

ass. And, no I don't think a union busting hypocrite well represents "the left."

[messiah]

9. The whole democratic party does'nt represent the left at all

bunch of timid prejaculating sell------outs.

[mzmolly]

15. And *you* represent "the left" I take it?

Take your masturbation analogy somewhere else. I've got a country full of children suffering in the areas of health care/poverty/education to worry about. I've got PNAC to worry about. I've got an environment to worry about, and that's just the beginning.

I proudly declair that I support the ONLY non-union busting candidate in the Presidential race - John Kerry.



Thanks from this guy for your back door support. He looks forward to another 4 years.

[bigbillhaywood]

31. No, I do!

I'm running for Mao.

Here's my platform:

Lower taxes
More accountability
Better schools
Physical liquidation of the parasitical bourgeois class

Vote for me or else!

[mzmolly]

35. Hey, you've got my vote man!

:P

[bigbillhaywood]

39. Excellent, your loyalty to the Party and the Chairman will be remembered

and rewarded after the Revolution, I mean Election.

[Dookus]

8. so far all I've seen is Nader

dodge, duck and deflect. That's not mopping the floor.

[Oddman]

12. Dean is so refreshing to watch

So straightforward and honest. Jeez . . . no wonder I supported him early on . . .

[wurzel]

13. Nader is right about everything but....

If Bush wins the next election it will not only legitimize the next four years. It will legitimize the last four years. And no one, not even Nader, can risk persuade me to risk that happening.

[mzmolly]

16. Nader and Dean agree on much. I agree with Nader on much of what

he says. He is a very intelligent man with great ideas, he simply goes about implementation in the wrong way.

He's also a major hypocrite. ;)

[welshTerrier2]

14. do me a favor ... please ...

if you hate ralph nader ... fine with me ...
if you think it's tragic that he ran in 2000 ... fine with me ...
if you think it's tragic that he's running now ... fine with me ...

but please, when you comment on things he says separate the message from the messenger ... i agree 110% with many of the points Nader raises ... i really don't care if he's an egotistical jackass or not ... i would never vote for him ...

but he raises many points about corporate control of this country that i agree with ... he criticizes both democrats and republicans for taking money in the campaign from corrupt corporations ... he argues that lobbyists are strangling our democracy and that the two major parties are in bed with the lobbyists ...

the hell with ralph nader ... do you agree with these arguments or don't you ... focussing only on Nader and losing sight of the important ideas he's raising is shortsighted ... look beyond the messenger ... the problem with the democratic party and the reason I will likely leave the party after we get rid of bush is because of many of the points Nader is raising ...

i've worked hard to get Democrats to respond to some of these ideas ... but it's clear that Democrats have to keep moving to the right to be successful ... that's fine with me while bush is in office but it's not OK beyond that ... and i have little hope that the Democrats will ever adopt the kinds of election reforms this country needs ...

[mzmolly]

17. Some of Nader's ideas are great. But, they can't happen overnight.

Imagine what a powerful force Nader would be forming a group that lobbies for change, and supports candidates from the ground up that meet his criteria?

This would be a prudent way to get the change he desires, what he is doing now is simply harmful.

[welshTerrier2]

29. Cobb's election strategy is much better

I don't expect the corporate state to be dismantled anytime soon ... and i want to make it clear that i am enthusiastically supporting Kerry because it's clear he is the only way we can get rid of bush ...

i've argued that Greens in battleground states must vote for Kerry and that Greens in non-battleground states, while free to vote for Cobb, must still consider doing all they can to get Kerry elected ... just because they are in non-battleground states does not mean that they shouldn't help the Kerry campaign nationally ... 4 more years of bush is not an alternative regardless of whether you like democrats or you don't ...

now, having said that, let me express my total frustration with the democratic party ... as i said in my earlier post, moving to the right this year, no problem ... but i have no hope left that the democrats can ever take their greedy little hands out of the corporate till ... and, even as a democrat, i have to tell you that i resent what the republicans and democrats have done to the Federal Election Commission ... we will never see real change as long as the narrow center controls the election process ...

we need the voices of other parties to be heard ... in the short-term, i would like to see a series of presidential debates as follows: the first debate would provide much broader access to third parties with a much lower threshold to qualify for participation ... subsequent debates would have higher and higher thresholds ... i also support instant runoff voting (IRV) and proportional representation ... you won't hear too many mainstream democrats (with a few exceptions) arguing for that ...

anyway, thanks for being reasonable about my previous post ... i agree with you that what Nader is doing now is "simply harmful" ... and he's not just hurting democrats either ... he's hurting those of us who agree with him on the issues but understand that he's putting this election at greater risk ...

[mzmolly]

33. Cripes, who isn't frustrated with the Democrats, or the two party system

for that matter? Nader and Dean are right on so many things.

I am certain our founding fathers did not set about with a vision of creating what we have today.

We are supposed to be a government "of by and for the people" as Dean and others have reminded us. We are now a country of by and for corporations in many ways. I don't know ONE person who would dispute that, Rethugs included frankly.

We DO need change, but as Jim Hightower recently stated:

"But all of that aside, now we face the reality of an Administration that is absolutely nutty. There's that old country song, "It felt so good when it stopped hurting." So we've got to stop the pain. But in doing so, we should not fool ourselves that we have gained some progressive victory. What we will have done is to get us back to a ground level where we can build again for a progressive victory that is several years down the road."
~ JIM HIGHTOWER November 2003

Real victory is down the road WT, but right now it seems we agree, we must"stop the hurting." :hi:

[welshTerrier2]

36. nicely stated , mzmolly ...

Kerry is a necessary step on our journey ... skip that step and you just might end up falling down the stairs ... it is wrong to view him, as some have, as the "lesser of two evils" ... it is never evil to take the first necessary step on a longer journey ... Kerry is the gateway to a better future ... he is not an "ends"; he's a "means" ...

[mzmolly]

37. Right backatcha my friend.

it is never evil to take the first necessary step on a longer journey ... Kerry is the gateway to a better future ... he is not an "ends"; he's a "means" ...

Very well said!!! :toast:

[madfloridian]

24. Dean and Nader agree on a lot.

Dean is being pragmatic, which is basically the way he operates. He is for having 3rd parties have a role, and he basically made that clear. It can't be done overnight, you start from the ground up.

I like Nader's views very much, but I would have trouble voting for him.

I think it is good for this debate to happen, and I am glad they had it. Nader is right about the corporate control of America, Dean knows he is right.....they have differing views on how to deal with it this election.

Why do you think Dean is forming DFA? For the reason that Nader is bringing up. To change things. It just can't be done by this election.

[WLKjr]

19. That was a good debate

Dean sure put Nader in his place a couple of times. The one I liked most was about Nader being for referendum in government policies and him not realizing how much that would wrong people in parts of the country.

Ralph just doesn't realize how much power he has right now. He could strike a deal with Kerry and get it guaranteed, and still get things he has been fighting for. I do not understand why he does not do this. Maybe a Nader supporter could enlighten me on why he does not do this or attempt it.

[Massacure]

21. lol, I don't see Nader cooperating with Kerry.

He was asked if he would take a side job with Kerry such as head of the EPA and Nader said no.

[WLKjr]

25. lol I know

that's why I don't consider Nader seriously, as do a lot of people. The guy doesn't look towards the future and what he could do if given a chance, like head of the EPA in a Kerry/Edwards Admin. I mean, I think Nader would be great in that position and he could accomplish some real results. Hell, they could even make a new department and let him combat corprate crimes. I just don't understand how people take him seriously because he doesn't think things out on what he could realistically do and still be supported. To me he almost comes across as someone who thinking he will be a failure if he is not president.

[bigbillhaywood]

30. I think Nader is not cooperating on two bases:

1. His ego

2. His principles. I do think he has some. I think he views the Democratic Party as the graveyard of progressive movements in America, so he wants to destroy it so a real progressive party (like the Greens or Labor Party) can take its place. I actually don't think this is such a bad idea, but I do think it is a tactical error in this particular election. Much like the refusal of the Communists to work with the Social Democrats to defeat the Nazis in 1930s Germany under the mantra "Hitler today. Communism tomorrow."

[mzmolly]

23. Welp I'm NOT a supporter but I know he's selling a book?

:shrug:

;)

[mzmolly]

20. Thanks for the heads up!

:hi:

[LostInAnomie]

22. It almost made me sad watching it.

This is what political debate should be like, these are the ideas that should be being discussed. Why do we let the Repigs take our eyes off of the prize and let them frame the debates? If you would ask the majority of the democrats about Dean's or Nader's positions they would agree with them over Kerry's. We have allowed the Repigs to use the word liberal to scare us away from our best interest.

Dean and Nader both care about the people and our party is fleeing from them like they are the plague.

[JHBowden]

26. The campaign is about *people*

Despite differences between Dean and Nader, this is the fundamental difference between the Democrats and Greens this election. Some are fighting for some abstract vindication or righteousness, while others are trying to help actual people with jobs, health care, education, etc. right now.

I found Nader to be a bit cold in this regard.

[bigbillhaywood]

27. Uhhh...Nader's not running on a Green ticket.

And your analysis of Greens vs. Dems is BS.

[mzmolly]

28. I agree. Nader is totally out of touch with reality.

Anyone can prop up a lofty vision/platform as to *how things should be* ... but getting it done is another story.

[Dookus]

32. Yep

I'd have a lot more respect for Nader if he'd run for a Senate seat and try to accomplish something there.

The man is utterly unqualified to be President, regardless of his ideas.

[mzmolly]

34. Very true. Heck I'd almost support him in a senate race.

:shrug:

[ScreamingMeemie]

38. I have lost all respect for Nader as anything more than a garbageman

after he accepted the GOP's help in gaining a spot on state ballots. No wait, I take that back. That's a slam on garbagemen.