The USA in the era of its decline, awaiting its evolution or death.

[Tyler Durden]

To paraphrase my mentor, as time passes the survival probability of any living thing or system eventually becomes zero.

Everything dies. EVERYTHING.

It is uniquely American to believe in this concept of the undying country/concept/freedom/insert your concept here.

There is ONE TRUE CONCEPT; Everything that is alive will one day be dead. This goes for philosophies, ideas, concepts, political systems, economies AND NATIONS. ESPECIALLY Nations.

There is NOT ONE NATION that existed in 1800 that exists TODAY. You can SAY that the US still exists, but do we have the exact same structure and concept of nationhood that existed in 1800? Nope. There isn't one political party that existed at that time that is here, now. Britain, or England if you will, is another example. Where is "THE BRITISH EMPIRE?"

Case closed.

The only way that any nation lasts more than about 150 years is by EVOLVING. You might even say we have evolved AGAIN since the Civil War to the point that we will continue here; this is an arguable point, IF you agree that this nation WILL NOT exist in the same format as before. Therefore, we will have evolved.

But everything is a dinosaur. Everything eventually becomes extinct. Do you believe in an eventual UNITED STATES OF THE SOLAR SYSTEM, or even THE LOCAL STAR GROUP? Then you are delusional.

We exist at the constant Birth and Funeral of all things, including ourselves. It is criminally foolish to believe in "1000 Year Reichs," even benign ones. The most reasonable thing we can do is assist at the birth of the new format/concept/system, and guide it in the direction of peace, brotherhood, and good will; which is not happening at this time.

When stasis or digression brings steps toward the re-creation of the Slave State, then to hope for its continuance for "Auld Lang Sine" is beyond criminal, it is a psychotic disconnect. The ONE world WILL arrive; it is only a matter of time. The only question is whether or not the concepts that made the United States will play a major role in the creation of the new ethic, or not. If we continue on our current path of elitism, bigotry, and arrogance, then we condemn ourselves to the scrap heap of history.

[Tyler Durden]

1. HEY I know I'm depressing; I'm depressed myself.

But someone could try and convince me otherwise. No "Pollyanna's" out there anymore?

[tsm11]

2. I disagree.

While I agree with many of your points, I disagree with some of the fundamental pillars of your thesis. I don't believe everything dies, for starters. I believe the universe lives on forever, and that it is the burden of life's force to ensure that. Life, contrary to your suggestion, is the antithesis to entropy... of course this is my opinion, and 180 degrees from my belief some years ago that life a catalyst for entropy (or it may be BOTH).

Additionally, our mastery of nanotechnology will extend human life tremendously, and eventually indefinately.

And I'm skeptical of the predetermined fate you seem to espouse.

[Tyler Durden]

4. Nothing predetermined about it.

And even if you were for all practical intents, immortal:

1. Got any plans to escape the "Heat Death" of the universe? That is of course if you believe in a straight-line theory of creation.

2. OK, no heat death. But then with a cyclical theory you have one hell of an explosion to get out of the way of in a couple trillion years.

That I think handles the immortality issue.

I keep saying, WHY NOT EVOLVE? If you look at history, evolution of the republic is the only reason it still exists in any recognizable form. The Golden Age of the Roman Republic was less than 200 years, and that with a communication system that relied on HORSES.

There's nothing really pessimistic about what I'm saying: non-evolutionary forms get resigned to the scrap heap. WE are the first species to ACTUALLY FIGURE THAT OUT. I'm just saying; TIME TO EVOLVE A LITTLE. Just a little.

If we don't, and we keep fighting amongst ourselves (that includes ALL of humanity, not just our little disaster) then we'll still be fighting when that big mucking ROCK creates an new CHICXULUB CRATER, and maybe the RATS get their shot at "Top Mammal." This is not a future I relish.

[tsm11]

6. ~

But you are making assumptions about the nature of the universe that are far out of the scope of human comprehension.

We are pushing evolution as best we can.

We are not called "progressives" for nothing! :)

But for entertainment's sake, if we evolve, aren't we relegating ourselves to extinction to make way for said evolution?

Part of my current academic thesis centers on evolution, and my assertion that mastery of nanotechnology will mark an evolutionary milestone... whereby homo sapien becomes outdated nomenclature for the species.

[tsm11]

7. additionally

There are no "non-evolutionary" species.

[bryant69]

3. Pollyanna hear

Ideas and ideals survive though. I mean yeah there are a lot of bad things happening in the US. But there are good things happening too.

As for the bit about everything dying; well that's metephorically true. It's also true that the you who lived in 2000 is now deader than the dodo (and me too). Every moment dies so a new moment can be born. That is actually a hopeful idea. The Bush years will die, and we have a chance, a good chance, I believe, of moving into a more hopeful better time.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Tyler Durden]

5. And HERE's an example of the De-Evolution of the Republic, IN PROCESS:

http://www.prevention.com/cda/feature2002/0,2479,s1-7342,00.html

Advancing steadily toward the THEOCRACY. Nero and Caligula would be so proud.

[Caution]

8. what an utter crock

The whole thrust of this "argument" is: "If we don't evolve we will die" wow, darwinism...gee that's new...oh wait...no it isn't, look a theory that has survived for quite a while! And hey, we'll just say that all of the various philosophers of the last 2500 years that we have record of are worthless because "all things die" good call.

and then we have the theory that everything is recreated at every instance of time. gee that's original. that hasn't been around since the era of the Greek philosophers or anything.

Wow, I'm delusional for believing that the core concepts behind the creation of the United States are rooted in ideas that have themselves evolved over literally thousands of years and that they continue to evolve today. Along the way there have been hundreds of bumps in the road but the core values persist and become stronger with time.

to paraphrase from a movie, "We are all now dumber for having listened to this"

Next time you wish to "educate" the masses, at least try not to insult them when you do it.

[PATRICK]

10. Young experiment under constant attack

not yet mature. meanwhile the world- including tyrannies- is evolving in a less depressing fashion altogether. Only the supremacy of the useless trash ruling and exploiting has become more irrational, pathetic and exposed and hated and more often, more quickly defeated.

If we are going to have change and if we have pressing challenges, why not change for the better(we haven't really tried full American values anymore than real Christianity) and meet the the challenges headon and disempower the over valued failures of our ruling elites? More education, progress, science and democracy.

If you want to get cosmic, assuming a super head cold doesn't wipe us out ignominiously, there is the approaching fact of a super great change associated at least with the genome project. namely all the stupidity, moral dysfunctions, addictions, madnesses and roots of several biological evils can and will be dealt with. What that entails for the evolution of the oxymoronic homo sapiens is unknown, but the best of us must fight for the shaping of that unknown future. Things are not vastly weary cycles. Change is greater than that. A child is more than child if it grows and intelligent life(if any) is under the urgency of a self propelling dynamism filled with moral choices toward a moral imperative whose shape we dimly can foretell. Only the crude militarism and bigotry of our age cannot be reproduced without extinction. That will come to an end one way or the other.

Our present duty is to be Americans in spirit and practice. This is what the world wants, the majority wants(though the flesh is weak)and the common wisdom clearer than doctrinal clouds from fortified towers of old thought and selfish power. That is enough and we are not satisfied and should never be. America is not an abstraction that will have value separate from our individual failures. We are America and it is strengthened or lessened by our actions.

Be pessimistic and critical, but be involved. Prideful actions without pompous pride. The tides of life are inevitable and the changing more progressive than the pathetically brief history of our violent birthing.

[Tyler Durden]

11. What ARE you talking about?

Darwinism? Since when does an "explanation" of a natural phenomenon date its birth? Evolution has been going on since there was LIFE. in some cases, anyway.

Sorry, that was snarky. On second thought you are rude. I'm not sorry at all.

I was going to reply to this, but as I read it, you didn't get a single thing I wrote, so perhaps you'd like to re-read it, and notice it had nothing to do with educating masses, and everything to do with re-invention and the fostering of new ideas from the old.

GAWD I HATE the buzzphrase "CORE VALUES." Sounds like it's coming from someone who writes Company Policies and Mission Statements. Yeechhh.

[Terran]

9. What's your point?

Ok, sure, nations "evolve," if you want to interpret it that way (and such changes are open to many different ways of being viewed). But basically, what you're saying is a no-brainer: most "nations," in the planet's known history, have not lasted from the beginning of civilization to the present day. So what? It seems extraordinarily naive to say that 'no nation that was around in 1800 is around today'. That's simply wrong no matter how you qualify it by talking about "evolving". China has been around for millenia, and it has changed as a nation in many ways but in many ways it is still the same as it has always been. I'm talking about accidents of geography, the vagrancies of weather, the acts or inactions of individuals, not just "evolution". There are many forces threatening the survival of global civilization, not just America's survival. It seems needlessly nihilistic to assume that none of these challenges can be overcome. You sound like you want the end of America.

[Tyler Durden]

12. I beg to differ.

China has been around for millenia as a LAND MASS. By your logic, we really are an ENORMOUS failure here as the people who were residing when most of our relatives showed up are in massive decline, sort of like replacing the Chinese with Africans.

Nations are based on Governments. NATIONALITIES are based on LOCATION. We're talking civilizations and political systems. The People's Republic of China has been around for about 60 years. Where are the Manchu, Han or Ming Dynasties?

Challenges are there to be overcome. It's just much harder to do when you get "SET" in ways to do things; it usually results in decline.

You also are not reading what I wrote, and are not seeing that it is a demand to BECOME and not to REMAIN. Try reading it again without a chip on your shoulder.

The modern aristocracy of Rich Bushite Bastards are the nihilists. It may remain as Jefferson said that the tree of liberty (NOT the tree of the United States) must be occasionally watered with the blood of patriots.

Patriots to the SPECIES, not the political system. We are the tool users. We need to remember that, and improve the tool or throw it away and make a new one.

[Terran]

13. Hmmm.

I've never known your posts to be quite so...garbled...before.

I did as you asked and went back and carefully reread your entire original post. I find about half of it to incomprehensible. You clearly have something in mind, but you have not expressed it very well, beyond the obvious proposition that "everything will die." No argument there.

Your view of history, and what makes up a nation, is exceedingly shallow. Of *course* governments are transitory over the longish haul. The world has gone through various eras where some forms of government were far more numerous than others, and yet those formerly popular governmental forms later mostly died out (e.g., monarchies). But that has little to do with the nations themselves or their self-identification as nations. Nations are built around shared culture, not just government structure. China has been a cohesive nation-state with a homogenous central culture, for millenia; I submit to you that that idea is not open to debate. China is and was still China, even with its varying borders, whether it has Tang, Han, Manchu, or Communist rulers; the Chinese people still have certain cultural features and ideas unique to themselves that they apply to whoever rules them. I guess you've never heard of the "Mandate of Heaven"?

I will agree that the US is a very different nation than it was in 1800, culturally and otherwise; but we still have the same form of government. Therefore, by your own limited definition, the US has been around longer than 204 years.

A lot of this is relative. I don't know how much modern Iraqis feel that they are the same people who built Babylon; probably not so much. But modern Egyptians stake a very strong claim on ancient Egypt. Tell a modern Egyptian that his country has not existed for thousands of years, and you'll get strong disagreement.

And I didn't see anything about "demand to BECOME" in your original post. Not that I even understand what the hell you might mean by that.