Some people think DUers are nuts. I am about to agree.

[karlschneider]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=211010

Read some of the outre and outlandish bullshit in that thread. With 'friends' like this, Democrats (this IS Democraticunderground.com after all, isn't it?) do NOT need any more enemies. Is it any surprise that the public sees (some of) us as fucking insane nutballs...with the nutty posts about explosives in the WTC, for example? Claims that no airplane ever hit the Pentagon?

No way am I going to become a Republican, but I sure as hell see their
point when the people ostensibly on 'our side' exhibit such insanity.

I am not a happy camper when I see this kind of horse shit.

[ComerPerro]

1. I appreciate their conviction

This is a secretive administration. The people here at DU feel they (as American citizens) were sold out by this administration on Sept. 11, 2001. I feel the same way.
What you are seeing is an attempt to find the path to the truth, because it WILL NEVER be revealed.

[karlschneider]

18. Well, dog eater, if I accept your premise "will never be revealed",

there really isn't any point in pursuing it, right? Why bother? Maybe I've failed to properly express my point. When I see people proposing something so abysmally stupid that doesn't really deserve comment, and others leaping on the idiot wagon, it makes me want to vomit.

I would really rather those kinds of folks just shut the fuck up and NOT claim to be on my/our side. It doesn't help to find the truth, it doesn't help to fix the problems, it doesn't make us look intelligent and it for goddamn sure doesn't get us any support from anyone with an IQ over room temperature.

Nobody on this planet wants to know the truth more than I do, TTBOMK.
That discovery is ill-served by morons who invent scenarios involving "planted explosives" in tall buildings. (And they never are able to posit any sort of rationale WHY anybody would do it anyway...)

I would do -almost- anything to get rid of G. Bush and his gang of criminals, but I hold the line at inventing impossible and totally nutball claims.

There is more than enough verifiable evidence of the mendacity of the Shrub administration to make a clear case against it. There is no need to invoke "X Files" crap to abet it.

Now I must utilize one emoticon:
:grr:

[donco6]

53. I totally agree.

I mean, really - people here actually arguing vehemently in favor of the theory that no one has landed on the frickin moon.

Yes, I do ignore them, but it's the fact they exist that makes me wonder just who the hell I'm hangin with here.

[buff2]

2. It's very simple......

Don't read them. :evilgrin:

[Abe Linkman]

3. Some people just don't get it, do they karl?

Why would any loyal American question what the Bush Administration (or just about any other, since Kennedy) tells them. It's almost as though some of these DUers think we have a bunch of lying fascists running the company.

It's enough to baffle the curious, ain't it bro?

[DuctapeFatwa]

4. Many people feel that some questions should not be asked

If I am not mistaken, the bush regime itself tends to look rather disapprovingly on too close an examination of the 9-11 events.

Probably the best course of action, for those who are displeased by discussion of the topic, is to stick with "evildoers who hate freedom."

[Rose Siding]

5. Nature abhors a vacuum

The lack of visible, credible, thorough investigation produces speculation. It's unavoidable. The space *will* be filled.

I can understand your frustration but none of us knows enough about what happened or who is responsible.

[PurityOfEssence]

6. I am but mad North-northwest

When the wind is Southerly, I know a hawk from a handsaw.

[JanMichael]

7. It's going to happen to us just like it happened to the hard right.

We're cornered and things will appear more significant due to our predicament.

However, the aggregate of DU threads are perfectly reasonable, so don't get too upset.

Good night!

[bpilgrim]

8. who are you talking about?

do you have a link to the 'OFFICIAL' theory on what happened?

i'd appreciate it :toast:

peace

[gbwarming]

11. Try this Bp

http://wtc.nist.gov/

Edit: This looks like ongoing work - I think NIST is repsonsible for the official government explanation and it is not done yet. It's frustrating to have to wait so long but this is also a complex engineering project.

[bpilgrim]

24. nothing on wtc7

that i can see... got a direct link.

thanks :hi:

peace

[gbwarming]

38. NIST WTC Investigation progress report link (5/03)

WTC 7 is definitely part of their investigation plan, they just don't seem very far along yet. It looks like NIST was given the investigation only in Sept 2002:

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/MediaUpdate%20_FINAL_ProgressReport051303.pdf

------------------
2.1 National Construction Safety Team Act Implementation:

The National Construction Safety Team Act (P.L. 107-231) (“NCST Act” or “Act”) signed into law
October 1, 2002, by President Bush establishes NIST as the lead agency to investigate building
failures. The Act, modeled in many respects after the National Transportation Safety Board
(NTSB) for investigating transportation accidents, provides NIST with significant additional
authorities. The NCST Act applies to the NIST WTC investigation in response to the attacks of
September 11, 2001.
-----------------------


1.2 Objectives of WTC Investigation:

The objectives of the NIST investigation of the WTC disaster are to:

1. Determine why and how WTC 1 and WTC 2 collapsed following the initial impacts of the
aircraft and why and how WTC 7 collapsed;
2. Determine why the injuries and fatalities were so high or low depending on location,
including all technical aspects of fire protection, occupant behavior, evacuation, and
emergency response;
3. Determine what procedures and practices were used in the design, construction, operation,
and maintenance of WTC 1, 2, and 7; and
4. Identify, as specifically as possible, areas in current building and fire codes, standards, and
practices that warrant revision.

(122 pages in all. I just skimmed parts of it.)

[bpilgrim]

41. thanks

:toast:

peace

[IranianDemocrat]

That thread was an insult to the democratic party.

.

[lynndew2]

9. Thank you, I am new here and

I thought it would be honest political discussion and thoughts. Seems to me that even in threads that are about anything except (and sometimes even) about a canidate. Someone has to slip in some sorta conspirasy shit and it just makes dems look stupid. Thank you for pointing it out as I am new and didnt feel I should or could.
thanks Karl

[legin]

14. The fact remains

That if you are not a conspiracy theoryist then you would not pick up even a quarter of the crap that GW and co are pulling for real.

[peabody71]

16. Turn the other cheek and who looks stupid in the end?

There is a lot of crap going on in the world and if you take it at face value you have done yourself, your family and your community a diservice. Have we learned nothing?

[lynndew2]

20. if you never turn your cheek and look around

All you see is the shit that others throw at you. Dems need a message not conspiracy theories. If you waste all your time chasing shadows. You will be enveloped in darkness.

[donco6]

55. Well put, lynndew2

And welcome to DU.

[Pastiche423]

23. What is conspirasy shit [sic] to you?

What exactly do you think makes Dems look stupid?

What do you think happened on September 11, 2001?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pastiche423]

33. Were you in NYC

at the Pentagon and in PA when the attacks occured? Is that how you know "what happened happened"? Whatever that means.

How come what was lies?

Osama did not claim responsibility for 9/11.

I am having trouble understanding your question.

[lynndew2]

39. My sister in law was 7 miles away from WTC

And I am sorry but if it wasnt osama then he would make sure that was known, to avoid what has happened since. Please use some logic. If you were accused of murder. Would you let the world accuse you and not say "it wasnt me". Knowing that the world would come after you with the intent too kill?

[donco6]

56. And therein lies the rub, Pastiche

YOU weren't there, either. I wasn't there; you weren't there. So why sit here wildly speculating about the great mysteries of history? The whole truth is absolutely and completely beyond our grasp! We can't know - so why spend these endless hours debating! It's utterly pointless!

[Pastiche423]

58. The whole truth

will be absolutely and completely beyond our grasp if we do not search for it.

To me what is pointless, is to never try to find the truth, and to simply buy what the powers-that-be tell us to believe.

[lynndew2]

37. If its a conspiracy?

Why didnt osama say openly that it wasnt al-quaida. Why would he accept an open attack from the USA?

[lynndew2]

42. sorry if you felt i attacked you personaly

I didnt mean anything by my deleted message. I was running my mouth and not thinking. Sorry. I do stick by my conclusions about al-quida. Didnt mean to offend and good night.

[roughsatori]

10. I don't see a single post there by you debunking them

I may have missed it. When a topic upsets me I try to refute the points in that thread. I have been tempted do as you have just done and start an attack topic about a thread that angers me--but that seems destructive.

[Stephanie]

13. if you read more carefully

you will see his posts

[roughsatori]

17. Please link to a single post by Karlschneider in the thread

I could not find one. Maybe I am blind.

[bpilgrim]

32. there are NONE n/t

peace

[roughsatori]

34. Thank you bpilgrim, I was going nuts

I searched with the highlight clicked on my google toolbar. And as I sometimes do editing I feared my mind was going.

[peabody71]

26. Interesting how we were the nut balls that oppossed the war.

I'm feeling pretty damned vindicated about now.
I will never shut up. There are plenty of conspiracy facts to go around. Even when they appear 'nuts' we must continue to digest them.
For every ten crazy conspiracies, there is bound to be one that is all too real.

[roughsatori]

28. You just stated the reason I am actually fond of conspiracy theorists

They do not bother me at all.

[ixion]

12. I understand your frustration, karl

but there remain so many unaswered questions, and the information I do come across raises new questions constantly. when it happened, I had a fear that the Bush cabal would use this to implement some draconian policy, and my fears have been answered in spades.
I don't think it's nuts to ask questions, and I don't think it's nuts to speculate and hypothesize. And when the powers that be seem to be hiding something, well, that makes me all the more curious.

[tkmorris]

15. Well....

I see your point. Kind of. In a way.

It's true there are a large number of "conspiracy" theorists around here and no doubt the majority of the theories are bunk. However I don't think any of us will ever believe in the Tooth Fairy again. Remember this place formed in response to the outrage that occured after election 2000. A lot of people were shaken free from their happy little well-rooted lives by that and forced to take a good look around at the world we really live in.

All is NOT as it seems. That much is clear. Was 9/11 the work of alien invaders from the Crab Nebula? No, probably not but the truth of it has never been told and likely won't be. It has been "Warren commissioned" and people are all too aware of that.

You see, that's the problem. When people become certain that they are being lied to all they have left is to theorize. A great many of those theories will be outlandish and horribly wrong but what else would you expect? Remember who we are talking about here. The Bush Crime Team is certainly capable, both morally and in a practical sense, of most of the tin-foil stuff you see here. I don't happen to believe that they did any more than take advantage of 9/11 and cover up their prior close involvements with the Bin Ladens and the Taliban but that's just me. I think they certainly don't give a shit about it beyond it's usefulness to furthering their agenda.

I'll give you this though. The Great Unwashed out there are not yet ready to stop believing in the Easter Bunny or a benevolent govt. When taking our message to them we must tone it down out of neccessity, but that's OK too.

[tlcandie]

22. Once you've been lied to then EVERYTHING becomes suspect..

And we have been lied to how many times now? I'm thinking that number might start competing with the national debt any minute now :crazy:

So, in essence, when people do not have the truth then gossip and/or conspiracy theories abound...seems the way of it because people will ALWAYS seek the truth. If you don't give it to them, then you better be ready for all this poking and prodding in your face stuff that you see here!

It's as if it allows peoples' minds to take in the SHOCK and AWE while assimilating the facts...oops I mean lies...no wait truth... arghhh, well you get the picture :bounce:

Take it with a grain of salt, listen or don't listen, research it out for yourself or don't...it's here and it is up to you to keep, delete or recycle!

[bpilgrim]

29. thank you

until we get answers i am gonna keep going to the 'think tank' and public.

i get pretty offended when people pull out my post and riddicule it in public on such a serious topic and appreciate folks who at least speak up for us who are JUST ASKING QUESTIONS.

:toast:

peace

[karlschneider]

35. I appreciate your somewhat lukewarm agreement. :-)

Anybody who knows me, even here in cyberspace, knows I despise Shrub and his cabal of criminals about as much as is possible. My own personal approach in local life is less strident than its manifestation here at DU. That is a matter not only of necessary diplomacy, it's a requirement for survival here in Oklahoma which is largely populated by essentially braindead fundamentalist morons...who are probably responsible for migraine headaches, were I to have any. I don't.

But you have touched on a salient point - when people find out they have been lied to, a common response is a defensive one; understandable...human nature precludes admission of being duped. I fully understand that. Nobody wants to admit they fell for a scam. Not even myself.
But there comes a point when we must do so. (Think about rape victims)

Oh......I have to go, somebody crashed into our neigbor fence....yikes
will try to finish latter

K

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Here's My Take

When people become so alienated from the system they create their own alternate reality.

Unfortunately that's what many of our fellow DUers have done.

I for one will keep my wits about me and not" go gently into that good night."

[Octafish]

21. It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad Mob

You are spot-on, Karl regarding the odd stuff people pass as information. Don't forget that in all DU, it's probably about 91:1 noise to signal ratio. Please please please, whatever you do or I can do, let me know you won't become a - a - a - a - a Them!



"Do I look too Sgt. Pepper-ish?"

[Yentatelaventa]

25. I like you even more now

Finally a well heeled voice of reason. I'm right behind you.

[never cry wolf]

30. i agree with you karl

and am afraid that in trying to insert some engineering knowlegde and then constantly having to back up my facts i have assisted the thread to remain on the front page. i am still kinda new here and am learning. from now on i will just try to ignore, it's not like anything i posted was taken seriously or the links i put up read anyway. isn't there a 9-11 forum where this stuff should be placed rather than on our main forum page?

[Shanty Oilish]

31. Ca-shew!

*sniffff*
I'm not a nut, I'm allergic to tin. :)

"Let a thousand flowers bloom."
---Ah Chu

[Az]

36. Its simple psychology

Some people when faced with horror on the scale that struck our nation on 9/11 cannot deal with the notion that it happened so simply. The mind balks at such notions. Some men with knives caused all this destruction? This notion can threaten to topple some people's sense of reality. In their mind there has to be a more sophisticated explanation. How could something so mighty be toppled by something so insignificant. The only explanation in their mind is that something mighty had to be responsible for this destruction.

They then start to fix upon anamolies. Misinformation. Lapses of communication. Add into the mix the secrecy of this administration and you have a ready made cauldron for a full blown conspiracy theory.

The way to deal with such positions is not through anger or ridicule. You have to explain things and be there to maintain a connection. You have to be honest with them. You have to find the truth with them. You have to be compassionate and I don't mean the conservative form of it.

These people are anguished about what happened and what they believe happened. Yes it would be easy to ridicule them and say they are nuts. But they are not nuts. They are people experiencing pain and anguish as people do. If it troubles you my personal recommendation would be to try to help but if that is not possible then at least try to understand.

[tlcandie]

40. Would also have scoffed at Gallileo as well or others

who were once considered to be 'out of touch with reality'? I'm sorry, but I do not believe in holding people in a box and telling them there is one way and ONLY one way to analyze or figure something out.

It is beyond me to pass judgment on how you or anyone else gets to the truth of a matter...some of us are vertical thinkers, some horizontal thinkers and some spiral thinkers...

Having said that I can also appreciate you not being able to tolerate those who don't fit into your square peg (round, triangle, or whatever shape), it would just be nice not to have those who can't tolerate 'OUT OF THE BOX' thinking not criticize those who do making it seem they are contagious or something and something to snub nose.

Maybe instead of having a STAKE in the outcome of a thread, you state your facts (if you so choose) and let them decide for themselves. Few here are NOT open to honest facts, but please do not condemn them for opening themselves up to ALL truth even if it seems like hogwash at the onset to one such as yourself :)

EDIT: add a YOU in subject line, please.. tsk tsk can't even type .. now I'm really in trouble here :)

Second EDIT: remove and something.. I'm too tired going to bed now :(

[Az]

50. We all can learn

The problem is that once a particular set of thoughts takes root in a person's mind it can be very difficult to get them back out again even if they are demonstrably wrong. The nature of belief is not tied to logic or reason. Though these can lend weight to belief the bulk comes from emotional weighting of events. Thus a belief that gets set during tramatic events can be extremely fixed and nearly impossible to dislodge.

I am troubled that you believe that I cannot tolerate individuals that do not think the same as I. I have yet to meet another person that thought exactly as I do and I seem to tolerate them fine. In fact I prefer a diverse array of friends rather than clones of myself. However I do sometimes percieve individuals with ideas that I find troubling not so much for myself but rather because I fear for them and what it may do to them. Like Don Quixote tilting at windmills they may find themself ahoist in the air upon some whirling fantasy. I cannot force them to diverge from their path but I can try to aid them as best I can.

[bpilgrim]

43. thank you Dr.

glad we got all these experts on the scene.

peace

[xequals]

59. Az, excellent analysis, but "debunking" doesn't work.

Ever heard the saying "it's impossible to prove a negative". That is why most scientific thinkers simply ignore pseudo-scientists. It's easy to say something outlandish and not have to prove it. It's almost impossible to disprove the outlandish to someone who wants to believe.

The other day I was watching "Big Thinkers" on the Science Channel. Scott Adams (Dilbert creator) had a great explanation for why it's so difficult to disprove pseudo-science. It has to do with the way the brain works. Our brains aren't logic machines like computers. The brain deals in shades of grey .. fuzzy logic. What makes the human mind so powerful is exactly what allows us to believe pseudo-science. Pseudo-science isn't logical, but it's close enough. Add in the fact that it's comfortable to believe in fairy tales .. the brain's default setting is to believe in pseudo-science, religion, mythology, etc. Our brains actually seek out the more fantastic explanation for things.

Most scientists think that the truth (i.e. logic, hard science) will suddenly open people's eyes and we'd have a society that operates on logic instead of myth. This just won't happen. We live in a world where the gap between scientific truth and what everyday people believe is growing, not shrinking. I'm pretty sure that if Darwin was alive today he would be shocked to see that people are as ignorant (and happy about it) as they ever were.

[bpilgrim]

44. ALERT MODS

this thread i believe is in violation of the rules and highly OFFENSIVE please lock.

thanks :toast:

peace

[xequals]

45. I agree -- it makes (D) Democrats look like idiots

The person who started this site for (D) Democrats probably never intended for it to end up this way. Most people here aren't even (D) Democrats.

I would guess that about 75% of the people here are Greens, Socialists and other far-leftists. Stir in the tin-foilers and there's enough fruit punch to go around.

[ScreamingMeemie]

46. Why not get ideas out there, what's wrong with that. I know I sat there on

that day listening to all kinds of horse shit coming out of the news stations and the White House itself. Why are they allowed to spew, and we are not? When so much has been disproven, or at least questioned, why not delve further? The theorys don't bother me. Nuts is in the eye of the beholder. Remember, if you were against Bush and Iraq you too were, and still are by some, considered nuts.

[Bushknew]

47. When you have NO arguments, insult the person.

Ad Hominem attacks are so much easier than trying to have a dialogue with the person.

[bpilgrim]

48. exactly

i still can't believe this public attack on another DU'er is not locked yet.

peace

[tlcandie]

51. I'm extremely saddened to hear that I'm considered

something akin to a red-headed step child (hell maybe less)...not to throw out any horrible stereotypical terms here (my mom is red-headed & freckled!), but searching for something that relates how I feel.

Maybe you ARE right and those of us who do not fit into the DEM box intelligence quota should run right out and register as Green, Independent or Repug, so we don't foul your nests any longer. Guess that would be pulling the DEMS down in primaries though now wouldn't it?

I just donated to DU, but I will sleep now and consider if I will drop my membership after this. I thought it was DEMOCRATIC not Democrat per se...my bad.

Surely, there is another place to mingle ideas and theories with other beings in this ship called earth...

There's room in this world for ALL of us and ALL of our ideas :)

[donco6]

57. I don't see ad hominem anywhere in that message.

And I agree completely with Karlschneider.

[AmeriCanadian]

49. I agree completely

Some of the horseshit on that thread is flat embarrasing to read.

[nomaco-10]

52. Thanks for your post.....

I just signed up yesterday after lurking for a few weeks. I was really hoping that the admins would start putting a lock on that kind of crap and keep the temporary rules they had in place about a week ago. I move around alot and yes, DU is getting quite a rep around the net. It's really too bad.

[KoKo]

54. It's just a bunch of guys "blowing off steam." We've always had

conspiracy theories on DU since the beginning when we started to look at Selection 2000. In many ways maybe DU is really just one Huge Conspiracy Theory.

They are just speculating.....

Better that than 20 Southern Bashing threads, 15 Religion Bashing Threads and all the other devilment we get into when we are frustrated by what's going on.

Just my 2 cents, Karl. I don't think DU will ever be "Mainstream." And, if it was, we would probably lose interest in it and it wouldn't be the same.

[lazarus]

60. Please

do not post threads calling out other DUers. If you have an issue with comments made, please either hit alert or respond to the thread in question.

lazarus, DU moderator