MEME MEMO: John Kerry's IWR vote is water under the bridge.

[ClassWarrior]

No matter how you feel about Kerry's vote on the IWR (personally I'm pissed, and I intend to hold him responsible for it once he's MY elected official), we need to be of ONE VOICE when the RW tries to blur Kerry and Bush* on the war. We need to frame the issue this way:

"John Kerry's IWR vote is water under the bridge. What matters now is that GWBush* is a miserable failure in handling the war, and John Kerry WON'T be."

The MEME MEMO: Because language DOES matter.

[stepnw1f]

1. I Second The Motion To Unite and not Divisively Fight

[ClassWarrior]

2. It's not just about unity.

It's about changing the playing field... reframing the debate... not letting the RW set the rules under which we play. (See my quote below.)

WE will address this issue with President Kerry WHEN WE WANT TO address it with President Kerry - and not just because some RW hack jerks our strings.

[ClassWarrior]

3. kick

:kick:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. Kerry could kill the whole thing by just admitting he was wrong.

I'm holding my nose and voting for him, but the way out of this is to take responsibility for his vote and just say he was wrong, "mistaken", or "regrets" it.

[ClassWarrior]

5. I can't control what he says.

I can, however, control what I say. And if we're all saying the same thing, we'll change the debate.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. How do you figure?

Do you think that the pugs are going to let it be "water under the bridge"? Hell, they're already using the vote against him. If Kerry wants to win this election he's going to have to come out against the invasion and occupation, rather than trying to play it safe and dance around the biggest issue in the election. The "I'm not as bad" routine isn't going to cut it.

[Gin]

7. be united and get shrub out....after kerry is in office...he will have to

answer...let's pick our fights...and stay united....come on... we don't have a voice with the status quo....and any infighting gives the thugs ammunition....fight in 05.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Kerry was wrong, and is still wrong.

I'm voting for Kerry, but I'm not about to give him a free ride for the sake of "party unity". The party IS divided about Iraq. It's not going to change because we pretend that it's not.

[ClassWarrior]

12. Nobody's saying "give him a free ride"...

I will be THE FIRST one out there holding his big patrician feet to the fire on November 3rd.

All we're saying is be smart about choosing the time and place for the discussion.

[ClassWarrior]

8. I never said that it'd influence the RepubliCONs...

I said it would change the terms of the debate. What that WILL do is influence undecideds and the herd-mentality press.

When that happens, we win.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. How? Seriously.

How will it change the terms of the debate? The "debate" is that we went into an illegal and immoral "war" (if attacking a third world nation with a wrecked military can be called a war) and are now stuck there. Both Boobya and Kerry offer no realistic way out. Their "plans" are almost identical. To borrow a phrase, Just saying it's "water under the bridge" don't make it so.

[ClassWarrior]

10. True. But would you rather conduct that debate...

...with Preznit Bush* or President Kerry? I for one think we stand a better chance at being heard by President Kerry.

All I'm saying is save that part of the debate until we know we have a chance of winning it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. It's not about who the debate is with. It's about the debate itself.

The occupation goes on. People are dying, needlessly, for the sake of politics and soundbites. It's the 500lb gorilla shitting in the living room. Both candidates just want it to go away so they don't have to stick their necks out.

Iraq is THE issue because it damn well should be THE issue. I want Kerry to talk about it, and offer a realistic plan to get us out and turn Iraq over to the Iraqis. IMO, if he keeps pussyfooting around it, he gives it to the idiot-in-chief by default.

[ClassWarrior]

17. Then I guess we agree.

I never said he should pussyfoot around anything. I said we should reframe the debate to be not about how Sen. Kerry VOTED, but about what he would DO. In other words, "I want Kerry to talk about it, and offer a realistic plan to get us out and turn Iraq over to the Iraqis," to borrow your wording.

When the RW makes it about IWR - a moment in the past, about which none of us can do a thing - it's simply to divide us and to blur the debate for the undecideds.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. I guess we do.

The RW is going to blur the debate into a "he voted for it" circle jerk because he DID vote for it. There's simply no avoiding it unless Kerry, somehow, can distance himself from that vote. And, then, offer some way out. So far, he has done neither. He has to offer a real alternative rather than the pie-in-the-sky, "I'll try and get NATO and the UN to become really stupid and jump in the brier patch with us" nonsense that he's offering now.

I believe that Kerry has to get off the rail and take a stand if he wants to win the election. It's not we dissenters who are giving the thugs ammuntion it's Kerry's tepid stance that is.

[ClassWarrior]

19. That's what I'm saying - Kerry needs distance from the vote.

But, in absence of him doing it himself, WE can help him do it. Too often we look to the candidates on our side and say, "Whyyyy don't theyyyy blah-blah-blah??..." When we really should be saying, "How can WE blah-blah-blah??..."

The RW is very skilled at using surrogates - both public figures and private individuals - to disseminate their talking points. Finally we have a growing corps of public figures (M. Moore, the AirAmerica crew, etc.), but now we private individuals need to get into the act too.

[ClassWarrior]

20. Remember, I'm not talking substance here...

...I'm talking style. The facts are the facts are the facts. But too often our side says that the facts are all there is. And in today's television-dominated society, that simply isn't true.

Here's an analogy. Say you're selling perfume. You put it in a cheap KMart package it and charge $5 for a quart. Then you take the same perfume, put it in a designer package and charge $100 an ounce for it. How the public relates to those "two products" will be VERY different. The content's the same - what's different is the framing.

We need to get better at framing.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. Lipstick on a pig.

I believe, perhaps naively, that the American people realize that there's a real problem in Iraq. As the body bags come home and the national debt goes up and they have to reach for their wallets to pay for the mess, they are getting more and more nervous and want a way out. BushCorp offers more of the same and drapes it in flags and "support our gallant troops" bullshit. Kerry says, "I'll get NATO and the UN to help us shoot up the scenery, so we don't have to send more of our gallant troops".

When it comes down to it, I think most Americans would decide to go for the guy who says, "To hell with it, lets just beat the shit out of them and just get it over with.", for lack of a real alternative. In that sense, I think that Kerry has to offer substance rather than framing.

[ClassWarrior]

25. Again - I AGREE. KERRY needs to provide the substance.

WE need to provide the framing.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. OK. Now if he would only provide the picture to frame.

He does seem to be slowly, very slowly, moving in that direction. His perfume is beginning to smell a little less like dogshit but it sure ain't roses yet.

[ClassWarrior]

27. Until he provides the picture we want...

...we HAVE TO frame the picture we have.

[calimary]

21. How 'bout - "I made a mistake. I trusted this pResident."

I counted on him to bring me the truth so I could make a good decision. Most of America trusted this pResident. And he lied to us. He lied to me. He lied to the Congress. He lied to the Senate. And worst of all, he LIED TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

I voted for it because I counted on this pResident to tell me the truth about it. I believed him. And because I believed him, I cast a bad vote. I'm responsible for that vote. But HE is responsible for the truth.

[ClassWarrior]

22. That's a great response for him.

But given the fact that he's not saying that, discussing it is a loser for us. I say we shift the debate to the future instead.

[never_get_over_it]

13. What is MEME

I've seen that several times and I can't figure it out - help me here

[ClassWarrior]

15. A meme is a piece of information or content...

...a phrase, a photo, etc., that takes on a life of its own, to the point of becoming viral.

We want these phrases to become viral, we want them to work their way into everyday language. One of our best memes, for example, is "corporate welfare."

[Blue_Roses]

14. kick

:kick:

[ClassWarrior]

23. kick for the language

:kick:

[calimary]

28. KICKOLA!

...wish I had one of those long Swiss alpine horns...