Anyone remember the crash of Flight 587 on Nov 12, 2001?....

[Media_Lies_Daily]

<http://www.usread.com/flight587/Prelim_Report/Parts2n3.html>

Excerpt:

The debris field from FL587 covered, at most, a few square miles on land and in Jamaica Bay. Did the NTSB conduct a thorough search for the debris comparable to the effort in the Shuttle Columbia investigation? Did they generate a list of every piece of debris found away from the crash site? Did they photograph this debris? The answer to all these questions is "no".

Air crash investigators and aviation experts who contribute to U.S.Read are dumbfounded by the absence of a professional debris search and proper accounting, and believe that this glaring investigative failure has jeopardized the credibility of the NTSB's conclusions on FL587.

One retired NTSB Senior Air Safety Investigator (ASI) told U.S.Read:

"In the case of AA 587, the NTSB did not even lay out a wreckage trail diagram. This is a basic procedure that is performed when any aircraft is shedding parts, like AA 587 was doing".

Within weeks of the Shuttle Columbia accident, NASA had published detailed maps and a listing of debris found by volunteers and searchers. In contrast, almost three years after FL587 crashed, the NTSB has not published this data.

More on Flight 587:

<http://usread.blogspot.com/>

[onecitizen]

1. I heard or read somewhere in the.........

last few months that that crash had been deemed a terrorist attack. I was stunned. Last I heard, that was declared a failure with the plane somehow.

And what about that Egyptian Airline full of people who took off from NY and deliberately flew it into the ocean? Never did find out what happened there. Personally, I think that was an act of terror too, maybe not Al Qaeda but still, terror.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

2. The eyewitness reports quoted on U. S. Read are very telling.

[wicket]

6. thank-you

Thank-you for bringing up Egypt Air, I don't know why it never gets mentioned, but it was a terrorist attack. I was deeply affected by it, my tiny hometown in Vermont (population 800) lost an elderly couple that was on that plane. It was devastating to the community. I don't know why it never gets mentioned along with the other terrorist attacks.

[KharmaTrain]

9. You've Got The Flights Confused

The Air Egypt was the one where the pilot nosed the plane down and ditched it with all aboard...prior to 9/11...and one that showed the pilot was a religious fanatic...and our "friends" the Egyptians refused to investigate or even admit one of their own could have done this. I don't remember any ties mentioned to Al Queda at the time, and I don't think there were that many, if any, Americans aboard.

The flight this report refers to is that plane that crashed on Long Island a month after 9/11. IIRC, they quickly ruled the crash an accident based on the plane having taken off too soon behind after the previous plane and had gotten caught in it's turbulence that caused the plane to crash. The crash was suspicious as it came so close to 9/11, but I've never heard of any tangible, legitimate connection.

The shuttle cost billions and had a lot of top secret materials aboard...damn right NASA and the Pentagon had teams scowering every inch of it's break-up path. You can't compare that salvage and invetigation with one of a passenger plane that apparently malfunctioned.

[wicket]

14. no I don't

The Egypt Air I was referring to that my town lost 2 residents in was on October 31, 1999, the one with the pilot being the religious fanatic. There were 100 Americans on board. :shrug:

[KharmaTrain]

15. That's The One I Was Refering To...

I didn't remember the number of Americans aboard, I didn't think there were that many. If I'm not mistaken, didn't an Air Alaska plane crash in a similar incident around that time as well?

If you remember, the Egyptians got all bent out of shape when the Clinton administration released the tapes of the cockpit recorder and stood firm that an Egyptian would actually do this thing in the name of "Allah".

Do I have some of this right? Or is there more where a link would be helpful?

Cheers!

[JayS]

16. The final report on the Egypt Air crash is available at the NTSB...

...website. The transcript of the cockpit voice recordings, along with comments by psychologists and radar data, are all in the final report. Of particular interest is the comment that the suicidal pilot was dressed in red. I think there is even some mention of the pilot's behavior at his hotel the day before.

[wicket]

17. ahhhh ok I see what you mean now :)

That sounds about right, the pilot was praying in Arabic before the auto-pilot went off and dove into the ocean. *sigh* So sad, so many innocent dead :( You can see a passenger list here - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/502503.stm

[Corgigal]

20. Air Alaska

went down off of California. Maintenance and records were to blame.
Those pilots for Air Alaska did everything they could but it didn't matter. I think the Discovery channel had a special on this crash last week. Catch it on re-runs if you can.

[KharmaTrain]

23. I've Seen The Special

A great view into how the recovery and investigation take place.

I bring this up only due to the timing and I remember how the two crashes were immediately compared to one another. IIRC, the investigation into the Air Egypt flight had either come out, or the flight recordings did that showed this was a deliberate crash and that the disappearances of both of these planes and their doom happened in similar fashion.

Shortly there after I don't recall any comparisons made. If anything, watching that Discovery Channel show it reminded me of the flight that went down off of Halifax several years ago due to electrical malfunction.

On Air Egypt, I wonder if there was any actions taken by Air Egypt after this report was relased. I know there was outrage there at the time about how the investigation was conducted and the FAA and other government agencies had troubles getting information from the Egyptians. With friends like these, who needs Saudis???

[Corgigal]

25. SwissAir went down off of Halifax

and I found an old article for you about EgyptAir that might answer most of your questions.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200111/langewiesche

[Warpy]

3. Although reports on that crash could have been

delayed due to the incredible backlog generated by the difficulty of doing the forensics work on the 9/11 crashes and building failures, it's been three years,now. Something should have been released by now.

We're left with the guess that it was a copycat hijacking and embarrassing to the government, given that airport security had already been tightened considerably and they were trying to make travelers feel safe again.

I think it's about time to give up on getting any truth out of this gang of incompetents, thieves and stooges.

[Dem2theMax]

4. I know I watched a program on this within the past year.

If I'm remembering correctly, it was blamed on pilot error.

Wish I could give a link or something. I'm going by memory that needs sleep.

[Chelsea Patriot]

5. THE BIRDS

Immediately, Operative Roma Torre Of CNN affiliate, New York 1 began proclaiming that this crash was not a terrorist attack, and viewers should not think that this was terrorism.

Torre explained to the traumatized,freaked-out NYC viewers that this crash was really caused by birds.

Tippi Hedren, in a mink stole, had been seen running through the streets of Queens pursued by a flock of starlings just moments before the crash.

If i remember correctly, weren't the results of a media investigation into the 2000 Florida vote suppose to be released that day?

It's all so overwhelmingly obvious!

[latebloomer]

10. I too remember

how all the media IMMEDIATELY declared it was NOT terrorism-- how the fuck would they know? Transparent attempt to not panic the population.

[nodictators]

7. They blamed the co-pilot for stomping on the rudder pedals

That's really hard to believe. The NTSB did create an animation of the entire flight. It was on the NTSB web site, and may still be there.

In my (somewhat informed) view their claim is false. Even according to their video animation, the co-pilot seemed to use the rudder pedals only after the plane began to roll excessively.

An engine on the wing and the entire vertical stablizer (part of the tail section) fell off the plane. They recovered both of these in good condition. The vertical stablizer was made of plastic, not metal.

Curiously, the FAA did not ground the entire fleet of that early model Airbus (300, as I seem to recall). Instead, they just ordered inspections of the fleet. So much for the FAA concern about the 265 (or so) deaths.

Since then, no other Airbus airliners have lost their vertical stablizers.

I still believe the "accident" may have been the result of terrorist sabotage.

[trotsky]

8. Terrorist sabotage

I read an analysis which explored that possibility, and it was very compelling. Ailerons & rudder, etc. are controlled hydraulically of course, and cutting one of those cables or nicking it so that it would leak slowly would cause one to malfunction, creating a spin. The pilot, doing as s/he is trained, tries to correct for the spin, but that only makes the problem worse.

Basically the theory was that the plane spun itself into oblivion. The crash debris was consistent with the theory because people and seats in the middle of the plane were still in position, but the farther to the plane's ends you went, the more damage there was. (It also explains why the tail and engines ripped off - from the massive centripedal force.)

[ewagner]

11. You hit a hot button there

I've always been upset about that crash and the findings. So much in fact, that when any member of my family has to fly, we avoid flying ANY AIRBUS PRODUCT.

If you accept the turbulence, improper rudder input explanation, then the Airbus 300 series are dangerous, poorly designed airplanes.

On the other hand: No Airbus aircraft ever had a similar problem prior to this flight. No Airbus aircraft has experience a similar problem since this flight. No Airbus product has been grounded since this problem. Airbus products fly everyday through crowded airspace and encounter wake turbulence routinely and NO similar incidents have occurred.

Cognitive dissonance.

[AngryAmish]

13. They "blamed" the pilot for "stomping" the rudder because...

that was how he was trained. He performed according to to the book for AA pilots. Unfortunately, that manouver placed too much stress on the tail section (but made for a smoother ride for the passengers). It was done hundreds if not thousands of times before, before the design flaw of the tail section became apparent. If there is a definition of an accident, this was one.

And for all the tinfoil hatters out there, please rwead the entire NTSB file. Every major air, rail, highway or pipeline accident has a large publicly available file by the NTSB. Their findings are available and readable (if a bit techy).

[nodictators]

18. AngryAmish: "(but made for a smoother ride for the passengers)"

Stomping on the rudder would make the passengers in the aft of the plane airsick. Airline pilots are trained to NOT to stomp on the rudder for that very reason. In fact, the co-pilot used little or no rudder until moments before the loss of control.

As I recall, the animation was produced from the AA587 flight data recorder. If at all possible, see the animation, if it still is on the NTSB web site.

It shows what really happened!

On edit: clarifying sentence added

[AngryAmish]

19. Not true

"Stomping" the rudder was done to straighten the airplane out. Look it up, AA trained pilots to use stabilizer to avoid large movements of the plane. This put big stress on tail section, it fell off, and the plane hit Rockaway.

[Corgigal]

12. another point to ponder

if wake turbulence was the cause of this crash then why wasn't the departure controller either fired or taken off flying status? 10 miles separation is 10 miles separation and it's build in because of wake turbulence which always near departure points of any airport.
Another person who didn't get fired SO my guess is that departure separation was maintained.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

21. I remember seeing interviews...

with the MANY witnesses on the ground who say they saw flames coming from the fuselage near one of the wings. They were insistant on what they saw.

[Lisa0825]

22. I remember it well. I was waiting to board a flight at the time.

Everyone in the airport was in shock. You could hear a pin drop in the waiting area. We were just staring at the TVs, wondering if it was another attack, and if the airports would be closed again. When our flight touched down in Mexico, everyone cheered. I don't think I ever saw a plane load clear out so fast!

[joanne]

24. I seem to recall that at least a couple of the victims of that crash

Had survived the WTC attacks just weeks before. :cry:

[davekriss]

26. An Aside

As an aside to this grim and serious subject matter, at the time of FL587 I was living in the NYC metro area and (no surprise) very traumatized by the recent turn of events. The night before FL587 crashed I had a very strong dream.

I saw through a window commercial jetliners nosediving into surburban backyards. I thought it strange, and walked outside for a better view, and saw hundreds of parachuting people slowly drifting down. First, in fear, I thought "terrorists!", but then (in the dream) I realized they were the everyday Joes and Janes of the crashing jetliners. The next day FL587 nosedived into Brooklyn.

I make nothing of this except coincidence -- but what a coincidence!

[KittyWampus]

27. Don't Forget The Flight That Went Down In Hampton Bays, Long Island

during Clinton years. Happened over the ocean not far from where I live.

People reported seeing flashes of light moving upwards from the water.

It was a result of this crash that Gore's Commission on Aviation Safety/Terrorism was carried out.

They refused to call it terrorism or acknowledge what people saw (the streaks of light moving upwards).

[BGrier]

28. The Same Day The NORC Study Came Out

You know the one - it revealed that Gore won the 2000 election when all the votes in Florida were counted. And no, I'm not suggesting Bush was behind it. Bush just has a way of benefitting from tragedy.