What are YOU willing to give up?

[Mari333]

Last week I visited a friend who works in the Peace Movement in SF..she told me she runs into a lot of wealthy, influential lefties who debate a lot about the state of the country, and have read everything from Norman Mailer to Gore Vidal and debate incessantly about the state of the world.
Nonetheless, my friend is a fighter and a pretty cool lady..One question she asks these people, who are sitting quite comfortably in their well lit homes with a lot of money,
WHAT ARE YOU WILLING TO GIVE UP?
In other words, we have 913 soldiers dead and thousands wounded, thousands killed for a war specifically for oil reserves and lucrative contracts.
The key issue is: How do you yourself choose to live at home? Do you drive when you can walk? Do you live without lights on, use the least amount of energy consumption that you can? Do you live simply? Do you continue to buy buy buy crap you dont need? Everything uses up energy..as long as one is on the grid, one consumes tons and tons of energy..to even buy goods and services, you use up energy. Do you try not to use No2 plastic or any plastic at all if you can help it?
Every piece of polyurethane is plastic, which comes from oil.
I know a lot of people on DU are poor, and getting poorer..me too..
I am pretty good at living with very little, because I grew up that way.
But when my friend asks some of these people "What are YOU willing to give up in YOUR own life?" they balk.
I , personally, dont think they can intellectualize their way out of this. If people dont take responsibility for their own lives, stop consuming so much, stop using up so much energy, get off the grid as much as possible, and learn to live simply, even the wealthier people who intellectualize for change, but refuse to do anything about it in their own lives, then its a shame.
Too many people are dying every day so we can consume.
Time for many people in the US to look in the mirror, (me too), and cut it down to the simplest living there is.
People die because of our material consumption, and US selfishness.
anyway, my rant for the day.
http://www.peakoil.net
http://www.bringthemhomenow.com

[Mortos]

1. I am willing to give up

George W. Bush.

[Mari333]

2. me too, but are you willing to give up your 21 yr old son

to fight for oil contracts in Iraq? Thats a question a lot of people need to face in the mirror. Because thats where its at. People are dying because of US materialism.

[Tardisian]

3. Remember stuff my mom said...

turn off lights in rooms where you aren't; what, are your legs broken? you can walk there!; take your bike, ect.
Fortunately, we're able to be a one-car household, so that keeps the gas consumption down...we're now pricing energy-efficient appliances.
Very good post, Mari. Thanks.

[vetwife]

5. Thanks Marie, We are giving up a lot you know and a lot is being taken

away from us. You and I both know this too well.

[truhavoc]

7. Careful with the "one car household" idea

If you are frequently dropping off people that could drive and park themselves, you are actually using more gas (two trips instead of one). We used this method for a while (due to necessity) however now with two cars we save a great amount on gasoline and oil changes. No more double trips to drop each other off at work or school.

[Tardisian]

18. Actually...

we're a one car mainly 'cause I don't drive, but we do consolidate our errands into one or two days a week, and we're also fortunate to have a large (chain) grocery store withing walking distance! :)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

82. But you need double the insurance and maintenance, so

where is the saving?

If I were married, my hypothetical husband and I could get along with one car because I work out of my home and would refuse to live anywhere where I couldn't walk to shopping.

Because of my lifestyle, I'm able to go a whole month on one tank of gas--with a 1991 Dodge Spirit.

[truhavoc]

85. Good point, I forgot about insurance!!

My job is such that I travel about 4000 miles a month (regional manager over 5 states) and I am frequently staying overnight out of state. The two car approach is the only thing that works for me, I just know how much I'm saving now versus what I paid with one car. My issue is that my company pays for the insurance so I don't notice that part of it.

[truhavoc]

4. People die because leaders are willing to fight for these resources....

for whatever reason. The problem is that the people who are so willing to consume are those that are willing to send others to fight for those resources. Those that are willing to cut back would most likely never send anyone off to die for those reasons (unless due to a dire need). Of course we should do what we can to limit our consumption of energy, but the biggest problem is making those who refuse to care to see the ill of their ways.

[Mari333]

10. Poignant sight, when I see an SUV or Hummer parked at

McDonalds, with a yellow ribbon on the antenna. Hypocrites.
They should have bumper stickers that say
"I drive this vehicle and eat junk food and dont mind sending your child to die for my right to be a materialistic pig".

[CrispyQ]

17. Someone posted a link to some other site yesterday . . .

Where a slogan was: Real soldiers Iraq are dying in Hummers so you can play soldier in yours.

I hate Hummers.

[pinto]

22. check out - freewayblogger.com

[demnan]

6. I think this is a very compelling subject

I've been thinking about it for a while myself. I think one way a lot of people can help is through taking public transportation. I just joined a van pool. Yes I lost my freedom of movement during the day, but because there are HOV lanes (High Occupancy Vehicle) I manage to save time and wear and tear on my vehicle.

I think there should be more HOV lanes, this will provide more incentive for people to take public transportation.

As for using electricity yes I am guilty of being completely on the grid with my AC, my ceiling fans, security system, washer/dryer and dishwasher (which I set on air dry - that's another little thing one can do). Realistically people are not going to give up these things. We'll need to develop alternative forms of energy.

I'm sure a lot of people don't realize that the Pentagon has a large solar energy farm, a brainchild of the Clinton administration, it shows on a sign how much energy is generated every day - a pretty impressive sight.

I think we need to see more of this type of technology before we decide to go back to the inconveniences of an earlier age.

[Mari333]

19. I use very little, its not hard really

open windows in summer, when its hot, turn off all electricity you can, I have the PC on now but the other stuff is turned off..
take out the light in the fridge...who needs it? we dont. Dont use bread machines, roll out the bread and make it. Dont have to keep gas on high in the winter, cover the windows and doors and seal them off, use an electric heater in only a few rooms in the winter.
Buy second hand clothes, not new clothes.
Never shop at a mall.
Do all of your business in town in one trip , and if you can, walk.
Barter and trade with friends for your needs to be fulfilled (i.e., if a neighbour paints your house, you can shovel his sidewalks for a month)
Use wood if you can for heat.
I dry all my clothes on the line..in the winter, I will set a line up in the house, it adds moisture, and I save on gas.
Dont buy anything you dont actually need.
Its amazing how easy it is to live with very little.
And think of all the bastard corporations you are screwing by not buying their crap!! It feels good.
Lifes a stage, all the people are players. Imho, we dont need all the "props" for this theatrical performance of life.
I am far too aware of the 21 yr old stepson I love standing there in Iraq for this fake, ridiculous war for oil contracts.
It sets a precedent for how to live here.
I guess if everyone in the US had a loved one over there, they might think about how they live, and want to get off the grid, and not let the oil companies dictate HOW we live anymore.
Thinking of those fatass Saudis and BandarBush's face smirking as I turn on a light in my house makes me turn it off.
One doesnt need much to live .

[roach23]

59. sounds like me

Except my greedy ass dries my clothes.

Y'all flame if you want, but I only take two showers a week, and I wait until my clothes are pretty dirty before I wash them. Every time I take a shower, all that I can think about is how the water I am using to bathe is better quality than some people have to DRINK.

[0007]

8. I'm willing to giving up greed in order for the whole to become one

and live in peace.

Bring the troops home!

[radwriter0555]

9. I gave up my ford explorer and got a scion, so I would make a smaller

imprint on my world. It's not much, but we already use flourescent lighting, have low water usage landscaping, etc.

[Ripley]

11. I heard TV say it is 919 now :(

I've always been a conserver of energy, recycle, etc. But there is always more I could do. Thanks for a reminder to not be wasteful, even though it seems to be a national policy to be exactly that.

[Zorra]

12. Old bumper sticker: "Live simply so that others can live".

Good post, thanks.

[sangh0]

13. Thank you for asking that question

It seems that there are too many people, including liberals, who don't understand that there will be a price to pay for every and any gain we make. This applies not just to politics, but also to countless other areas that affect our lives, such as what we choose to consume.

IMO, the idea that compromise is unnecessary because our side is right and the other is wrong. This attitude of self-entitlement ("we are entitled to this change because we are right") plays right into the hands of the right-wing. As progressives, we seek change, and if one is unwilling to compromise then the only to implement such change is to impose it on people, and in doing so betray the progress we seek to acomplish. Without compromise, change only comes through force and coercion. Without compromise, we either get no progress (which is fine with the conservatives who oppose change) or we get change that discredits us in the eyes of the people because it's been forced through.

Compromise is necessary and cannot be done without making some sort of sacrifice. Change cannot occur without sacrifice. For all the talk of principle we hear here on DU, there is a shortage of talk concerning what people would be willing to give up in order to see their principles transformed into policy.

[Auntie Bush]

14. Mari...I was hoping your son was coming home with that group

from AG. I take it he didn't!

[LWolf]

15. Things I have willingly given up:

most shopping. I buy food. I buy clothes once a year, from a catalog. I buy supplies to care for my animals. I buy books and music, and supplies for my classroom. That's it. I haven't been to my local mall in 3 or 4 years.

Discretionary funds...donated to support the fight against *.

I never have more than one light burning in my house at a time. I don't have lightbulbs in the porch light or backyard "security light." The tv is almost never on, and never unless I am actually watching it.

I don't know if "giving things up" is really the right way to characterize it, for me. I don't really think of myself as "giving things up;" it's a choice about lifestyles. I live in a tiny, shabby little cottage with some shabby old furniture. I am the antithesis of the conspicuous consumer.

I know what I am not willing to give. I am not willing to give my sons, 24 and 26, for anybody's economic agenda.

[CrispyQ]

16. Mari, I think about this every day! . . .

I was ashamed when Bush told people to "go shopping." ??!!! I also remember the Gulf War -- we had more outside Xmas lights that year than I had seen in many years. What the fuck was that about?

Americans want the world to be a better place, but not at their expense. God forbid we would sacrifice our abundance so others could have a few basics of survival – like potable water. We have become a nation of greedy materialistic spoiled brats with little regard for how our lifestyles affect others around the globe.

For my part, my husband & I both drive small economical cars and most of our mileage is to/from work. We are fortunate to live about 2 blocks away from a major grocery store, so we walk. I always take canvas bags into every retail store so I don’t get stuck with more of those evil plastic bags. I recycle anything that is recyclable & try to PRE-cycle when I can. And best of all, we’ve gotten off the consumerist merry-go-round & no longer give a shit what the “Jones’” are doing or buying. We have minimal debt & live within our means. It has given us a freedom & options that we had never considered when we were caught in the marketing trap of consumerism.

I’m curious to hear what others are doing so I can improve my own simple living.

[natrat]

20. ideally

a cultural shift towards conservation would make it fashionable to sacrafice. That would take leaders to initiate. But i guess we know that given the stranglehold corporations have on our lives and our culture that such a shift is a pipe dream absent some energy crunch ala the 1970s.

[Ripley]

21. Never happen under these guys...

I heard Cheney say Conservation was a "feel good thing" that really didn't belong in his Energy Policy because it didn't really amount to much.

With "leaders" like that, why would Amurikans sacrafice a damn thing?

[MISSDem]

68. I've discovered that some stores won't allow one

to carry those bags in the store with them. Guess they are afraid of shoplifters. But some of the stores I use allow you to bring back your grocery bags and reuse them.

[Karmadillo]

23. Find out how many earths are needed to support your level of consumption

http://www.earthday.net/footprint/index.asp#

[CrispyQ]

24. OMG!!!! GASP!!!! 2.1 for me!

Yikes, I'd better get off my tush & start finding more ways to decrease my footprint!

Thanks for posting this site!! I'm sending the link to all family & friends.

[serryjw]

41. 2.3 for me!

CATEGORY ACRES

FOOD 5.2

MOBILITY 0

SHELTER 3

GOODS/SERVICES 2

TOTAL FOOTPRINT 10


IN COMPARISON, THE AVERAGE ECOLOGICAL FOOTPRINT IN YOUR COUNTRY IS 24 ACRES PER PERSON.

WORLDWIDE, THERE EXIST 4.5 BIOLOGICALLY PRODUCTIVE ACRES PER PERSON.


IF EVERYONE LIVED LIKE YOU, WE WOULD NEED 2.3 PLANETS.

This is the problem I have. I rate ZERO on transportation becuase I walk or take the bus everywhere. I rate TOO HIGH on food because not having a car I have to shop at my local market instead of going to a co-op that is 15 miles away. I never use heat unless it is BELOW 20! I just wear socks and a sweat shirt. I can not give up air..I get sick of the heat at 75 degrees!

[Gregorian]

45. That's awesome. Can hardly do better.

I found that it was nearly impossible to do better than that. I think it's a bit of a crude approximation in their program calculations.
I believe the average is six earths. I heard that somewhere, but don't recall.

[Selwynn]

73. Let's decrease the population :)

[serryjw]

86. Bushit & Co is working on that!

:P :P :P

[Mari333]

25. amazing site. I still use too much. Thank you. n/t

[Causidicus]

33. 6.3 for me...

yay, I win!!!

[Ripley]

43. You guys are really coming out of the woodwork today...

I wonder if it's really just one and he keeps coming back?

Having fun? Too bad you can't learn.

[fishface]

26. I'm willing to give up the village idiot as president.

and his little dog Chainbag too.

[CaTeacher]

65. hey--I love that little dog!

Barney can come and live with me!

[DemoTex]

27. My band of brothers and I gave up our youth and innocence in Vietnam.

Over 57,000 other Americans gave up much more. Their names are on The Wall in Washington, DC. I have always hoped that our sacrifices and the collective Vietnam nightmare would prevent the people from ever allowing our nation's leaders to take us into that kind of war again. Now I see that was a false and vain hope. So now I stand ready to sacrifice again, for peace and justice. What ever it takes.

[Mari333]

28. ((((((((hugs)))))))))) some of us did learn the lesson

some of us did. Its hard to believe so many didnt.

[TahitiNut]

90. Got yer six, Mac!

As long as I draw breath, you've got company.

[Crachet2004]

29. We can all get together and change Presidents, but we cannot change...

Human nature. People love the small comforts, shiny beads and trinkets that civilization and organized society bring...even Democrats.

As a society, we are not willing to give up anything. Conservation and self-denial may be a viable personal choice in life, but any political party thinking to come to power running on such an agenda has a rude awakening on the way. Part of what happened to Jimmy Carter, was that he wanted people to turn their thermostats down to 63 degrees in the winter, etc...

Jimmy made a real mistake...you see, people think government exists to ensure they can set their thermostats on whatever they damn well want to, and the People will reject anyone who says otherwise.

Instead, as John Kerry did, we must focus on science and technology to solve our material problems and to give people what they want-turn the tables on those Luddite creepers! Religious fundamentalists are definitely anti-science, and so for example, prefer to fight wars over dwindling resources rather than embrace the future our creativity offers. Their way is a downer.

We are surrounded with all the benefits our science has given us, and people have a gut feeling that Kerry is right when he says we can, for example, developer our way out of energy dependence. Our alternative to the GOP today, is as uplifting in its way, as was Reagan's message of 'plenty' as opposed to the then Democratic message of scarcity and conservation.

Surrounded by the benefits of our own ingenuity, one has only to look up into the night sky to know with a rock hard certainty, we truly DO live in a universe of endless resources and possibilities; and the party who monopolizes this rhetoric will rule the future.

But commonsense demands we take care of the only planet we now inhabit, until the day...but fortunately, we dominate this rhetoric already.

[wovenpaint]

30. very good question

I've been thinking about this subject for awhile now myself. And now you've given me even more to think of.
Some things I did/am doing include getting rid of as much debt as possible, bought an "older" Toyota that gets better gas mileage, buy my clothes at the Salvation Army store and send them back to sell again when no longer needed.(you wouldn't believe what you can find in resale shops!) I very rarely watch TV-and bonus! so do my kids now. Fan or outdoors rather than A/C. Always saying "Turn it off",etc.
I love your and other posters ideas to live simpler. I'm thinking that maybe less "stuff" around us will give us less "stuff" to think about...
when I go into stores now, all I see are yard sales waiting to happen!
BTW, I'm a longtime "lurker" and send many silent prayers your way. Your strength is inspiring and I hope your son comes home ASAP!

[newyawker99]

31. Hi wovenpaint!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Ripley]

32. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

We need more artists here. :hi:

[Mari333]

35. I think if everyone did what you do

it would make a hell of a difference..start slow, and slowly it gets easier and easier to give up all the crap we have become accustomed to.
I know now why St Francis of Assisi is my fave saint from when I was a kid.
=)

[gpandas]

34. i have tried to broach this...

subject many times at du, and got little response. the u.s. has five percent of world's population, and uses over 40 percent of world's energy. in most of the world bicycles and foot-power are the most common means of transportation, not suvs and luxury vehicles with rolling entertainment centers. most americans spend their entire lives bitching and moaning about what they want and don't get. we have machines to do every bit of manual labor, and have become weak and soft as a result. we spend billions of dollars and millions of barrels of oil to maintain our archaic lawns. we spend billions of dollars and millions of barrels of oil on pets. i am amused by token conservation, such as air drying the dishes, with no mind towards getting rid of the dishwasher, thus saving the energy used to operate and manufacture the stupid things in the first place. we congratulate ourselves on buying high mileage autos, and refuse to support meaningful public transportation. we spend billions of dollars and millions of barrels of oil on cosmetics, and other means of 'lookin' good'. we hire mexicans to do the hard work, and then go to the gym to 'work out'. as a group, americans have been driven to insanity by the ubiquitous ads to which we are constantly exposed. our ideals are supplied by the corporations, which dominate every facet of our being. i could go on and on, but why? americans are not going to change, and have shown they are willing to kill others to maintain their laziness er, that is, lifestyle.

[Sabriel]

36. We've given up going out for dinner, shopping for new clothes

We made the decision that money would be better spent on our candidates. (On the other hand, we only went out once every couple of weeks anyway, so it wasn't a very big sacrifice.)

Hey, just cutting out a dinner or two means we can send Kerry an extra $50. It's money well-spent (I hope...come November....)

Sabriel

[gpandas]

37. i don't think this situation...

will ever be resolved. we have dug a deep hole of greed, and no longer can take any moral high ground due to our excesses.

[Karenina]

38. Take this to the bank.

Your "ass"ets are being unceremoniously stripped bare as I type. Unfortunately, it's an addict-hits-bottom scenario. Your mega-malls, box-marts, strip malls, fast food franchises, Hummers and PILES of electronic toys, I-got-MINE attitude, arrogance and belligerence have all contributed to the undoing. (These remarks are NOT at all directed at you gpandas- a rant got triggered! It's YOUR FAULT! :silly:) Saigon68 posted a Steve Bell toon of two Locomotives on the same track. IMPACT!

Fisk says it straight out, Sibel Edmonds says it straight out, anyone witnessing the latest big city TERRA debacle who can't call it straight out should be placed in remedial learning. To all those here who have seen the "big picture" and continue their efforts to educate, :toast:

The status quo is shifting dramatically and swiftly. Fasten your seatbelts. Turbulence ahead. :SIGH:

[gpandas]

49. thanks for the response...

i love rants that attack the gitmo' materialism of american excess. i do believe that an increasing number of americans do not relate happiness to more stuff. unfortunately, most have been unable to see the stupidity and banality of their craving existance.

[democratreformed]

48. Can we talk about transportation?

I have thought about this for several years. In 2000, my daughter befriended a German exchange student and we spent a lot of time with him. I was intrigued when he explained that his family only has one vehicle. He and his brother ride bikes to school. His mother rides the bus. He said that you can take public transportation to any part of his country.

Is it possible to have public transportation to any and every part of our country? Or, is our country too vast? Those of us who live in rural areas have NO alternative but to own vehicles. Kay (the exchange student) was totally in awe of all the vehicles in our country. Like I said, though, what choices do we have unless we live in a city?

I'm not trying to make excuses here. I'm trying to come up with an idea. What alternatives might we come up with to solve this problem?

[gpandas]

56. there was always a price to be paid...

for living in remote areas. public transportation is the obvious answer to this problem, and also an answer that will never be popular in america. in the rural situations, the rural public must determine possible solutions for their unique transportation requirements, although, imho, it will be more expensive than urban areas that can use the economy of scale. i do not mean gov't transpo when i say public transpo. i guess this situation will not be changed until the price of energy is high enough to make it an economic necessity. according to 'peak oil' adherents, these prices are not as far off as i would believe, but in any case, the easy-to- get-oil-days will come to an end. there is much to read and talk about on this subject, and i will continue to do both.

[ellie]

62. When I first learned about

Peak Oil, it got me to thinking about transportation too. In my home city, where my mom still lives, there is no grocery store. She would either have to walk or ride a bike into the next town, which is far away. In the small rural town I live in, there is no grocery store.

Another point is that there aren't any railroad tracks anymore around here. They have been removed and bike trails have been put in there place, which is good for bike riding. I love them. However, what happens if we have to rely on trains again? New track will have to be laid.

I often think about what will happen if there were no cars or trucks on the road. Nature will take over the asphalt. I hate to admit it, but I get giddy about it. There is too much traffic. I think I was born in the wrong century.

[democratreformed]

66. Yeah, here are a few of my thoughts:

All those stories my dad used to tell about riding to town in the buggy with a horse attached - I romanticized them. I don't think I would mind it at all.

Four-wheelers are pretty good transportation and don't use much gas. We have a couple of those.

Life sure would be simpler, I bet.

I had a goal of canning a bunch of stuff from my garden this year. Then, I ended up going to work with my hubby for a week out of town. My garden grew up (I weed-eated it Sunday!). I haven't canned a single thing. I'm disgusted with myself over that one.

[KamaAina]

78. There is a public vehicle that goes nearly everywhere in the US every day

a mail truck.

I once heard of an elderly woman living outside Poughkeepsie, NY (where transit in the city shuts down at 4:30 in the afternoon!) who would sometimes catch rides into town with her postal carrier.

The Postal Service goes everywhere, even to places far more remote than Salt Point -- and if you ever need to get to the top of a French Alp on the double, they've got Lance! :-)

Of course, for this to work as a system, we'd need to go back to twice-daily delivery (morning run brings mail out, brings people into town; afternoon run brings people back, picks up mail for delivery), but would that be so bad?

Plus, the familiar boxy mail trucks would have to go the way of red fire trucks, replaced by minibuses that can carry, say, a dozen passengers... c'est la vie.

Edit: I believe some variation of this system exists in Europe (Switzerland?), but of course, that's probably the kiss of death to any attempt to bring it here...

[democratreformed]

92. That's an interesting idea.

I'm sure there are others that run into the rural areas as well.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

83. We used to have passenger trains running to nearly every town

and transit systems within every city. I've seen a map of the streetcar system that Minneapolis-St. Paul had until 1954: excellent coverage of the whole metropolitan area, including some suburban areas.

We can thank the auto companies for the current lack of public transit.

[GreenPartyVoter]

39. I am giving up 5 boxes of paperback novels, plus

maybe some beef jerky and other treats. (Will be mailing them out in a couple of weeks, along with other folks from my church who are participating in "Operation Cares and Prayers")

Am also cutting way back on ziploc baggies, and have done away with paper plates except on the rare picnic occasion away from home.

[Causidicus]

40. Are you willing to pay $5-$10/ gallon for gas?

Thats a real question. We complain about Bush being in bed with the Saudi's, but Clinton had to appease them too in order to have cheap gas.

So, are you willing to completely sever our ties with the mid-east oil sheiks in exchange for expensive gas?

I am.

[Gregorian]

44. We are already paying a price that is higher than money can buy.

The real price of gasoline is NOT reflected in the price at the pump. That price is artificially low.
Factor in just war, and you get a very very high price.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. Americans are paying FAR more than 5 bucks a gallon when one considers

oil wars, involvement and interference in Africa, Indonesia, the middle east, subsidies to oil companies and the entire defense budget which dwarfs all nations combined...if they ever added it up..they'd figure it out...

[Causidicus]

52. I'm just asking that if

Bush cut ties with the Saudis, and gas went up to $8, would you complain about what Bush did?

[Gregorian]

53. Nope. I'm looking forward to it with great enthusiasm.

We will suffer. It will suck. But it'll be better in the long run. Sort of like giving up cigarettes.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. I don't think it would need to

even based on today's oil supplies...the argument is that we only deal with the Saudi's because if we didn't someone else would...even WITHOUT drilling in ANWAR, we don't need Saudi Oil.

[Causidicus]

57. We most definately do need mideastern oil if

we want prices less than $5

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

58. Not true at all...we get plenty of oil from Latin America and could get

more....besides..you said SAUDI OIL..not middle eastern oil...Saudi Arabia is not the entire middle east

[Gregorian]

42. DAMN! You beat me to it. I was going to post this.

We vote not by ballot, but with our pocket book.

We have gone from being independent and free, to dependent and enslaved.

Kerry isn't going to make life better. No president can. He just won't aggrivate the world. And that's a big improvement. But it won't go anywhere toward solving the problems.

I have already given up nearly everything. Long long ago.
Until I could no longer battle the cars on the road, I rode a bicycle everywhere- rain, snow, shine.

I don't travel.
I don't buy new things.
I still don't have photovoltaics, but I'm getting nearer to doing that.
I don't buy redwood lumber, or any lumber for that matter.
But noone cares about me. It's not about me. It's about us. One person won't make a difference. There's six BILLION of us. And therein lies the problem. Multiplicity. When all people do even the smallest thing, it makes a huge difference, now that there are six billion.

Our noncommunal living is at the heart of the problem. Did you know that the average distance a vegetable is shipped in order to get to your grocers, is 1500 miles! Until we go back to living like we did, at least 100 years ago, one cannot even eat a piece of broccoli without causing pollution.

Nature is beautiful, but viscious. So when someone talks about how we can create a better world through less, we are automatically talking about a world where some weaker and or unlucky people will suffer. However, we are all suffering when we have to live with the results of our corporate, noncommunal, fuel dependent society.

What we are talking about here is ways of minimizing our negative impact on others. Others include generations to follow. Believe it or not, there might just be people AFTER we are done here.

Right now, petroleum is our big issue. But as the population grows, we will begin to find that water is the next big issue.

I believe responsible people who want to make the biggest change for a better world, will, for a relatively short period of time, have fewer children. It's that simple. And noone wants to hear it. Noone wants to think about it. But unless we decrease the population, it will be decreased for us by war, famine, disease, etc. And unless we decrease the population, there is nothing we can do about anything that will help, due to multiplicity. Because if it isn't fuel, or water, it will literally be land.

[GreenPartyVoter]

46. Communal living. I hate that we have to drive 40 minutes just to get

groceries. We also have no hardware store and no drugstore. But we used to, back in the day.

[Gregorian]

47. The answers are all ugly, by today's standards.

That's why noone wants to talk about them. After all, who wants a cold shower? Not me.
But the answer is- less and fewer.
Everything we have is fine. But not in these numbers. It's a real dilemma. We've gone from a better future, to no future. We had it all. There was a time when hydroelectric could sustain us. Yes, it has it's negative drawbacks, but they're minimal in comparison. In these numbers, the ramifications of just dental care, or just shipping alone, are dramatic. Ah, I'm so tired of thinking about this subject. And here I type. I've done my share. I've tried to talk about it. Now it's time for everyone else to catch on. Sorry, didn't mean to hang this on to your post. Once I get started, it's difficult to stop. :)

[CrispyQ]

51. Six billion miracles is enough!!

When are we going to address over population & sustainability on a global scale? Will we smarten up before we destroy ourselves?

[Gregorian]

55. That is something I think about.

If I read your statement correctly, I think you are saying that we are all God's creatures. And as such, how can there be too many. I don't claim to know that I'm right. But focussing only on life while we are here on earth, I think six billion is way too many. I try to keep an open mind, but I cannot guess as to what God would think. I mean, what would life be like with 20 billion? I've thought so much about this subject. I mean, it's actually not the number of people as much as the type of people. If I found that I loved, or even liked all of the people on this planet, six billion would not be as big a problem.
And now, it's back to ditch digging for me.

[blindpig]

60. lots of good ideas here

but folks, we are a distinct minority. The vast majority of our fellow citizens are hopelessly caught up in the consumer culture. Until the message that society sends in the forms of mass media and education are changed our efforts will have little effect. The best we can do is to elect leaders who have the guts to confront the powers who would keep the people enthralled for their profit. Tough to ask a politician to deliver the message of lessened(perceived) expectations, but there is DK.
I had hoped that 9-11 would wake people up but the spin was as artistic as it was monstrous. I'm afraid we're going to have to be smacked around worse, be it by terrorist, the world economy, nature or space aliens before the American people are willing to give up their wastefulness and superfluous comforts.

[noonwitch]

61. I'm not giving up anything I don't have to

1. I drive a car that gets good mileage (98 Ford Escort-35 mpg city mileage, 40 on the highway).
2. I don't use that much electricity, but it is 90 degrees out today and I am running my a/c. A matter of fact, I have it on any day that's warmer than 75. I hate the heat, am perimenapousal and will take offense at anyone who suggests that I suffer through the hot flashes without the a/c.
3. I take a daily hot shower, but I don't bother watering my lawn. I figure that is truly a vain waste of water.

I don't travel much and am a homebody-I want my house to have it's comforts. I give money to charity and to my church. I work daily to help improve the life of those with less than me, it is my job.

I do think that we need to be finding alternative energy sources to oil. I'd buy a hybrid if it was affordable, but my next car will likely be a 2005 Focus.

[Lorien]

63. Something else we should all "sacrifice"

one hour a week to write to our media, letting them know that we're tired of their RW bullshit and will be contacting their advertisers, telling that we are boycotting.

[jdj]

64. I used to go all over the countryside all the time.

Mountains lakes waterfalls botanical gardens museums.

Now I got a job 2 min from work.

I added up my montly expenditures the other night, and in July I spent $5.00 on gas.

I was stunned. But I have gained weight this year, which is depressing, but I have felt guilty about the human cost of my gallavanting although I miss nature like crazy.

[MISSDem]

67. A lot of people don't get it. It is

kinda like the fund raisers that are held for someone with cancer. They sell hot dogs and hamburgers loaded with cheese and other, probably, cancer causing stuff. People want to "support the troops" but not by actually doing without something. Dick Cheney recently said in a speech in Arkansas that he "just didn't know of anything else to do. We are at the mercy of the high oil prices" because the liberals won't let us drill in ANWAR. Not a work about conservation or alternative sources of fuel. I personally hardly ever drive except to work, make one trip cover all stops in an area, never shop at malls, don't buy clothes until I alsolutely must have jeans and T shirts, don't eat meat of dairy, don't drink soda pop or bottled water (I distill my own), take my lunch to work, never eat out at fast food places or restaurants, don't watch TV, don't go to movies (I do get free movies at the library and watch at home and buy some). There are a lot of things we can do. People make fun of you though and call you tight because you don't shop till you drop, etc.

[Mari333]

69. They might get it if their kid was over there in Iraq

Otherwise, it doesnt seem to affect them, and they dont connect the dots.
Its all talk, and no action. Talk is cheap, whether one is a democrat, or a republican.

[Swamp Rat]

77. Since Bush came in I lost my home, my job, my savings

Then they take my cousin and send him to Iraq. What more can they take Mari333? I was close to finishing my PhD but now that is all lost... I have to start over yet have nothing to start with, except a huge school loan. I am fortunate to have a loaner computer and a bicycle to ride (car just broke down), though since I have a permanent spinal injury this is not very easy. If I didn't have a loving family I'd be on the street, playing music for spare change.

When I see people driving Hummers/SUVs with little yellow ribbons I yell at them and call them names... I know this isn't polite but I love my cousin and I wish the assholes in these vehicles were there in his place. I see so many greedy Americans living in their bubble of supremacy. After living in Brazil and Central America, I was able to really see how materialistic and cold we can be here... I wish gas would go up to $100.00 per gallon so Americans would be FORCED to rethink their behavior. It's time to kill the American Sacred Cow - the automobile.

[IrateCitizen]

70. I'm willing to give up my freedom, if it comes to that

Given the choice between serving in an immoral and illegitimate military occupation, and being sent to prison for refusal to do so -- it may not be a palatable choice, but after a great deal of deliberation, I know which way I would choose.

Systems of oppression and injustice persist not so much because of people's support of them, but rather due to their unwillingness to stand against them.

[ulysses]

81. how's the CO app going, Chris?

:hi:

[Selwynn]

71. Frankly, its none of your business what I do or don't do.

What matters is that I believe I am living exactly as I should be living. Whether you think the specifics of what that means is right or not is really irrelevant. I only answer to myself about what is right and wrong for me.

[Karenina]

74. My first reaction to your post

is WELL LA-DEE-DAH! Isn't that special.

My second reaction is to ask what motivates you to respond to Mari333's OP in such a manner. SHE has a "dog in this fight," so to speak. :freak::shrug::freak:

[Selwynn]

76. Because, how to "do enough" is totally contextual and relative

You can't just rattle off a list of things and think if you do these you're a "good" person and if you don't do these then you're not doing what you should be doing.

It's relative to the particulars of individual context. All I can promise you is that I care about doing what I believe to be right thing. But I'm not going to get into a list of what I do and don't do becuase I reject the notion that anyone else is qualified to judge the personal decisions that I make.

Like I said, all I can promise you is that I believe I am doing all that I should be doing in my given context and at this point in time. As far as responding in some particular "manner" I'm just stating what I think, but I've had 1 hour of sleep so maybe its not coming out right.

[Karenina]

80. I'm chalking your comments up to

SERIOUSLY OVERTIRED. No, it's not coming out menschlischeweise. Du, in's Bett! Sofort! Schlaf gut, Schatz.

[Selwynn]

89. See post below.

[jdj]

87. so bogus.

Watch the movie "Swing Shift" about WW2, with Goldie Hawn, a rosie the riveter movie with marital infidelity as a subplot. Amazing what sacrifices people had to make during that period, and WERE THEY EVER WILLING. I suggested this movie because it captures it without preaching; women running outside to give their old pots and pans to a truck with a sign that said "pots and pans for the war effort", etc, it really is such a contrast to this war, where they don't even cancel NASCAR, for crying out loud.

[Selwynn]

88. What does that have to do with anything?

Where in anything that I said that a person shouldn't make "sacrifices?"

I don't actually know what this post has to do with mine in any way shape or form.

What I am saying is this. If you were to ask me, "what are you doing to do the right thing?" I wouldn't give you an itemized list and defend my choices to you, so that you could then judge them and decide if you thought they were good, bad or other. You don't know me, you don't know the context in which I live, you don't know what my needs are verses what my needs aren't. I do.

I agree that we shouldn't live in excess, and I agree that we should strive to live frugally with all things in moderation, willing to do without unnecessary trivialities that come at such a great cost. But what the specifically means for me in practice, how I conserve, how I live frugally, and what things i determine to be necessary for my life vs. what things I do is in the end, a private matter only I am qualified to judge. It's not up to you, don't know know how to evaluate what is right for me in my context. It is a relative, not absolute question.

Now sure, if we are to take it out to extremes and I own twenty five Hummers and four homes - then of course I wouldn't be able to even say I'm trying at all, or if I did, I suppose it would be pretty hard to swallow. But most of us, including me don't live at those extremes. I live in the grey area of context, doing my best to live a moderate, balanced, frugal responsible life. But what that practically means for me is my decision, not someone else's. If I am doing what I believe to be the right things in my life, then I will do them whether you think positively or negatively about them. That's what I mean.

So to a question of, "What are you willing to sacrifice?" or "what are you doing with your life?" I will only answer "everything i believe I can" and NOT breakdown an itemized list for the evaluation of others, because it is none of your concern.

[Selwynn]

72. .

double post

[StayOutTheBushes]

75. I gave up Norman Mailer

after Ancient Evenings was published.

[Valerie5555]

79. Maybe Americans ought to give up their foreign policy of "mucking around"

in other countries, JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN. Hopefully New Yorkers and Washingtonians are starting to "get it," particularly if New York and Washington DC are prime TERROR TARGETS #1 and #2.


To my credit, I usually get around by walking or taking the bus / LRT, usually out of circumstance.


On edit, It probably should make Americans wonder why Canada wasn't terrorized either on Sept 11, 2001 or in the lead up to Canada's national elections.

[Tight_rope]

84. I agree with you 100%...I live in Houston, TX and I cry for Hybrid cars

The traffic here is horrible. If you have a job and can get to work in 1 hour or less that is considered a "good" job, regards if your job really sucks. They refuse to build any kind of mass transit because they say it will bring crime to their precious golf gated communities. As though a gate ever kept criminals out. If anything they'll want to get in there even more. And when they do...I sure they are taking no prisoners. Yes...most criminals have no respect for life (Sound like they are part of the Bush family.

Most people in Houston are truly selfish. Not only do that continue to buy cars. But they buy bigger and bigger cars. The bigger the better they think. What they fail to realize is that they are killing themselves. The bigger the car the faster you die. The popular here is beyond words. Add to that that the builders are cutting down all the trees to build homes that people can't even afford. They stick a little stick tree in the front lawns and turn around and charge people $250,000. And if you come to Houston and didn't have allergies, well guess what....everyone here has allergies. And as the years go by the allergies get worse and eventually turn to Asama.

And let's not even get into the cancer ratio. I use to work for a group of Oncologist and Hematologist. And let me tell you, that doctors office is always busy. Yes there was always a waiting list to see the cancer doctors. And of course having MD Anderson Cancer Center (the worlds best cancer hospital) located right here in Houston, is by all means not be chance. MD Anderson Cancer Center is here for a reason.

[REP]

91. I Will Never Reproduce

A lot of people are talking about driving less, walking more, etc ... but how many are willing to do something with a far greater effect, like limit the size of their family?

I have no children and will never have any. That act alone has prevented untold waste.

[Gregorian]

94. Yay.....I salute you.

I'm 48, without breeding.
I am painfully aware that we have exceeded a limit. By manyfold.
One can debate this. You know- God's creatures. How can there be too many of anything in God's image. Well, I say that I'm very unhappy about it. And I'm one of God's creatures. Furthermore, it says in the bible that we are to be the caretakers of earth. Breeding is hardly being a caretaker. Oh, I"ll shut up now. But it brings me heaps of happiness to know that a few of us have chosen a better way.
One more thing- and you alluded to it. I would imagine many people would be enraged by this, but in this modern society every child can be equated with a number of units of energy consumption. And this is not an idle thought. Every kid needs a car, house, food, education, and on and on ad infinitem. I don't need to tell you. It's just that there are so few of us, my flood gates open when I'm lucky enough to bump into one.
Congratulations for being smart.

[AgadorSparticus]

93. Ooooh, the money I wasted on buying a landfill of crap over the years!

We are a society of consumption and I have to admit that I was guilty of it for the longest time. I watched TV and bought into the "I want" syndrome. And to be honest, I didn't even realize it until I went on a mission to rid the house of clutter. I made so many trips to Goodwill, I was shocked.

I had amassed a ridiculous amount of cheap junk from various sales and clever marketing. If someone told me how much crap I had and will donate to Goodwill before my uncluttering mission, I would never have believed it.

But looking at all the stuff I took to Goodwill, I couldn't help but mentally tally up the wasted money I had thrown away. The thousands upon thousands of dollars I could have saved for a rainy day or invest in CD's and bonds. And looking at the local Goodwill drop off, I'm apparently not the only one. I think most people, if they uncluttered their homes, would come to the same conclusion.

I learned a valuable lesson and will never get suckered like that again. Maybe that is just part of growing up and living life. We hit a bumpy spot and got a dose of reality. We are, needless to say, frugal and live well while preparing for the future. We get more of what we need than what we want. And the beauty of it all is, as I've come to this realization about consumption, I find that my "want" list gets shorter and shorter.