Moveon pissed me off this morning.

[denverbill]

Wes Boyd sent out a letter complaining about Fox news convention coverage. The letter itself was right on target. No problem there.

What pisses me off is that he is using a right-wing tactic now. He provides a link for writing a letter to the editor. That alone would be OK. Unfortunately, he's decided Democrats are as stupid as Republicans and need an astroturf helper to help them write their letters.

That's stupid, unethical, and exactly what the morons in the other party are doing. Thanks Wes and Moveon for making Democrats look as stupid as Republicans, and for trying to make newspaper editors look like idiots for reprinting astroturf.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

3. Did Wes make you feel offended?

You poor thing.

[denverbill]

6. I think anyone who is smart enough to write their own letters should be.

Go ahead and use it though in your case.

[WilliamPitt]

8. Smart enough?

Smart enough to write letters to dozens of newspapers all across the country?

You may have that kind of time. Most people don't.

[sangh0]

11. Someone doesn't understand ORGANIZED political activity

It's one thing to get a bunch of letters on an issue. It's an altogether more powerful statement if the letters make the same points. It tells the recipient that they are not only opposed, but also that their opposition is ORGANIZED!

Heaven forbid we do something in an organized fashion. That might actually work!!

[WilliamPitt]

4. I think you woke up on the wrong side of the bed

Letters to the editor are an easy way to reach out on national issues at a local level. It isn't a 'right-wing tactic.' It's a smart tactic that right-wingers have been using to good effect.

One emulates the victors to become a victor.

[denverbill]

14. Will, I'd think this would bother you too.

I was outraged when I saw Republicans doing this crap. I thought everyone on DU was when they did the 'demonstrating genuine leadership' astroturf crap a year or so ago.

It's one thing to astroturf an email to protest something or tell your congressman how you feel. But it's quite another to attempt to pass off as your own original work something that's been written for you and then fool newspaper editors into believing it's your own writing. It's pretty embarassing for newspapers to find out they've published something that's been repeatedly printed in dozens of papers nationwide.

It's little different from me copy a paragraph from one of your books and submitting it as my own work as a LTTE.

[WilliamPitt]

20. People copy my stuff for LTTE's all the time

That's why I write them.

[Eric J in MN]

38. People sign their names to your exact words in letters-to-the-editor,

without atrribution?

[WilliamPitt]

43. Yup

and then write me to tell me they did it.

I write back and say, "Thank you. I'm honored."

[Eric J in MN]

49. That won't cause two letters which are exactly the same except

for the byline to appear in different newspapers on the same day.

The "MoveOn" tool probably will, if it hasn't already.

Newspapers want to print unique letters, not the same exact letters as other newspapers.

[WilliamPitt]

64. And LTTE editors all have transcontinentally connected brains

so the editor in Fresno knows what the editor in Boise is going to put in his LTTE section, while the Cleveland editor is fully cognizant of what the Miami editor is getting ready to print.

:)

Mmmm, don't think so.

[NewJeffCT]

15. agreed

I think it's a great tactic that we need to start using more often - I've been trying to write a LTTE for my local Hartford Courant for months now on an amost weekly basis. The best I've done is a couple of call-backs. But, at least they are getting my opinions and I have seen more than a few liberal LTTE in there over recent months, which is not bad considering the Courant is a Tribune subsidiary.

I've been saying for a while now that we need to use the tactics of the Religious Reich - start local with school boards, town councils, etc. and work our way up over the long term. Change won't happen overnight, and our opponents know this and can be patient. Look at how things have changed - in 1964, Barry Goldwater was considered so conservative, he was unelectable for being so far out of the mainstream. If Goldwater were alive today, he'd be one of the few moderate/liberal Republicans in the Senate for his pro-environment views (I believe he was pro-choice as well)

[Eric J in MN]

56. Don't you want liberal organizations to be more honest than rightwing ones

nt

[HereSince1628]

24. "One emulates the victors to become a victor?"

Gahd, I trust that belief is couched within a number of caveats surrounding the meaning of "emulate" as a verb.

Personally, I think providing a convincing argument, urging supporters to write to their major news sources and giving perhaps some critical talking points is reasonable and something any advocate could and perhaps should do.

An argument can be made for sending a form letter... It is rather like sending a petition with each signature in a different email or on a different sheet of paper...that volume of traffic is desirable when the petitioner hopes the effort results in a way that stands out against the recipients' daily activity.

That of course raises the question about whether imposing email slowdowns, denial of service, or other costs of high traffic volume is an ethical approach. A topic on which I don't claim to know the answer.

BUT...Jumping on a fellow DU'er simply because a poster isn't into the rush to sign onto someone else's idea (even if that someone has "stature") is less convincing an argument than it is an example of the sociological phenomenon of censuring members over minor noncomformity. With all the talk about GOP attacks on 1st amendment rights it confirms how insidious group dynamics actually are.

[WilliamPitt]

26. I "jumped" on him?

[HereSince1628]

29. I think my 4th statement was about the earliest responses

in the thread...something the mods appear to have agreed with.

No, my first comment, and the only comment I directed at your posting was that emulating victors, such as BUSHROVE, has clear ethical implications. If _we_ are willing to become like _them_; all is lost.

My following comments were more general, and directed at various posters ahead of me in the thread. I apologize if they seemed pointed toward you.

Asking people to write their own LTTE's is reasonable. Advocates like Wes can help that process in various ways.

Astroturfing is certainly a political tool, and tools don't violate ethical behavior, people using those tools do, and that has lots to do with choosing which things we emulate.

My last point was really a general statement about the intersection of DU groupthink and basic principles found in freshman sociology texts. An argument I have made with the mods a number of times.

- - - - - - - -
A few (admittedly sterotypical)lines about why we shouldn't emulate everything...

Democrats seek to create laws based on principles that serve the interests of all. Republicans merely look for ways the rules limit the reach of competitors and then create gateways (loopholes) to allow them to get what they were after in the first place. Which is to say Democrats have high ideals, Republicans have mean values.

[calimary]

58. Well, then, think of it this way - all the "dress for success" advocates

say if you aspire to be something in the future, DRESS LIKE YOU ARE THAT SOMETHING NOW. Any actor will tell you the costume or wardrobe helps him or her immensely in getting into the character. Same thing here. TRY ON those sample letters or suggested comments. Use 'em. Use parts of 'em. Rewrite them in your own words. Pick some sentence of Will's or the Plaid Adder or somebody here (LOTS of terrific writers and thinkers here) or in other forums, or in op/ed pieces or commentaries and stuff you read on the internet.

In art school, we all copied stuff. At the campus radio station, ALL WE DID was copy stuff, before we felt our wings were dry enough to try our own. Think of it as training wheels. Soon enough, you'll be riding (writing) without 'em.

This stuff is quick, easy, and it probably makes all the difference for somebody who doesn't have the time or motivation to read up on every last fact and figure and quote so they can assemble their own take on it. It might make the difference between sending SOMETHING and sending nothing. It's just another tool. WHY NOT USE IT?

There's lots of email-generating machinery out there. I get stuff from the ACLU, the People for the American Way, MoveOn, Common Cause, the Union of Concerned Scientists, the AFL-CIO and the Wilderness Society. Among others. They ALL have this machinery ready to go, to storm their intended subject's office or inbox with emails. In this case, it's sheer numbers of responses they're counting on, AND counting - period. The objective is to generate LOTS of emails so there's some big numbers to point to. Frankly, that's why I prefer sending something via snail mail - it's a personal touch, and it does stand out a little.

It's a WHOLE LOT BETTER than just feeling bad about the way things are going, and doing nothing about it.

[Eric J in MN]

63. When you sign a petition, there is no deception. It obviously wasn't

your own words.

With these "pre-written" letters which they send one copy to each newspaper of with different bylines, the point is to deceive the Letters Page editor into thinking the letter is unique.

Astroturf is wrong whether it's done by rightwingers or leftwingers.

[SoFlaJet]

5. It's just a blue print

saying"you can say this or you can say that-but mostly say whatever you want

[UdoKier]

7. A number of progressive groups have used astroturf letters for some time.

And being a good, concerned liberal doesn't automatically make one a good writer. Besides, many of us are pinched for time, and I assume that there is space for editing or adding one's own message.

People are free to use the address to send a message in their ownn words if they like. I think you're probably blowing this out of proportion. Besides, they've been beating us with sheer numbers - part of the reason they can do that is that their philosophy requires no critical thought and their activism requires little effort. Give MoveOn a break for trying to make it easier to get morre people involved.

[Eric J in MN]

50. People who aren't good writers can get invovled in dozens of

other ways than by sending a Letter to the Editor with the same exact words as someone else's Letter to the Editor.

[NightOwwl]

9. They do this all the time.

It's optional, if you use their template they suggest you add your own personal comment.

[graywarrior]

13. With all the crap banging around in my head

I appreciate a sample of letter writing. Otherwise it would be "Dear Idiots, I'm mad, I hate you, I want you to stop...gr-r-r-r-r-r."

[Joe Fields]

48. I appreciate "astroturf" letters, as I am so busy and have

a score of causes to keep up on and activism galore to participate in. In short, I don't have time to write individual letters to everyone I need to write to.

[Bettie]

10. I find the "blueprint" convenient

It gives me a starting point. I tend to put my own thoughts into it, but having an idea of the high points helps me a lot in organizing my thoughts.

I don't think they meant to make you feel angry or anything like that.

[theshadow]

12. I don't think it's unethical but....

.... I do think it lessens the impact when a congressman gets 1,000 messages, all saying the same thing. On the other hand, Move On and other organizations probably do this because otherwise many people wouldn't participate. A lot of us on DU are used to expressing our opinions for ourselves, but that's tough for a lot of people.

[slutticus]

18. Actually....

I just tried to send a "cut and paste" letter and it wouldn't let me. It said "The letter is too similar to one that has already been sent to that newspaper". That's good. That means each letter the newspaper gets will be unique. Now I have to quit being a lazy ass and write my own letter!

[ClassWarrior]

19. Agreed. The way I look at it...

...if I have the time, I compose the letter myself. If not, at least clicking a link is better than nothing.

[ClassWarrior]

16. Aren't there better things to get outraged over??

[prolesunited]

17. What's the big deal?

Smart people like you can write their own brilliant, eloquent letter and others more pressed for time or who don't possess those capabilities can benefit from the assist.

Why would that piss you off? You do realize not everyone is as smart or good with words as you are? Would it be better if they just didn't write anything at all for fear of struggling or looking stupid?

[Eric J in MN]

36. It's decefitful. Newspaper don't want to print the same

exact letters in another newsapeper.

MoveOn is perpetrating a fraud upon newspaper editors.

[On the Road]

21. This Isn't Just a RW Tool

and I don't think it's unethical at all. I've used form letters when I didn't want to take the time to compose my own.

It diminishes the value of each letter, but it greatly increases response. A personal handwritten letter carries a lot more weight with a corporation or a politician, but a flood of form letters also has an impact. It's a tradeoff.

[WLKjr]

22. Fight Fire With Fire, RIGHT????

n/t

[pennylane100]

23. Why do you think the "morons in the other party "are so successful

It's because they employ these tactics very successfully. This is a fight for the soul of our country and you are worried about playing by the rules. Well of course you will finish last along with the rest of the nice guys.

[KurtNYC]

25. Exactly, I saw the Indy 500 and they gave the guy a trophy

even though he was speeding! Way above the state's 65MPH limit.

[klook]

27. Content is more important than form

As others have said, not everyone is skilled enough to craft a letter that's persuasive and full of facts. I do consider myself that skilled, but I am usually pretty short on time.

I've used the form letters from progressive web sites several times to communicate with my representatives and the media. I usually modify the text, change the subject line, or delete, rearrange, and add text at will. I can be an effective way to communicate--maybe not as compelling as a handwritten note or a completely original message, but it does let them know how I feel about a topic.

[Eric J in MN]

37. For letters to Congress, that's true. A letter-to-the-editor is

supposed to be unique.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goclark]

30. You can change the letter!

I totally disagree with you.
I just did it and I changed my letter to say exactly what I wanted to say. I even included my feelings about CNN.

I am for anything that will legally get the attention of voters that don't have a clue. They are drinking the kool aid folks and they don't even know it.

This format even let's you know what newspapers have already received one of the "self written" or "suggested formats" letters.

I wish I had the time to find the stamp,find the newspapers to write to, get the addresses AND know that my letter will even be considered. I don't and other people don't have that kind of time either. But, these people would still like to try and make a difference. Let's not put anyone down.

I could write the perfect letter to 5 papers and take 1 hour. I can write a letter this way and I may get the same results and it takes me three minutes.

This is a WAR to win the WH and it is close. How can we possibly reject any effort to get Kerry in the WH?

[goclark]

31. Here is the link, Please try it!

MoveOn.org has a beautiful way to write letters to your local papers about these crooks.

Please go to the link and they will give you talking points, sample letters, and a tool to find your local papers based on your zip code.


http://www.moveon.org/lte/lte.html?lte_campaign_id=7&zi...

It is absolutely creative and cool.

Go Move On .org, you rock!

[Eric J in MN]

32. This is disgusting. This is phony. Liberals shouldn't do this.

It's one thing to give people examples.

It's another to ask them to sign their names to letters they didn't write which turn up under different names in different newspapers.

This stinks.

[denverbill]

35. I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that way.

It's great to give people a tool that gives them the email address of their local papers, etc. Anything that makes it easier. But to supply the content is wrong.

[Democat]

45. Liberals shouldn't do this? Give me a break! We need to win!

Just because you want to write your own letter doesn't mean I do or that everyone else does. Some people don't have the time or the skills, but they want to be heard.

Are you against mass produced bumper stickers too? You only put bumper stickers on your call that you think up yourself?

If you don't like it, don't use it.

Some of us are sick of losing and we are very happy that MoveOn is giving us more tools to beat the right wing at their own games.

Thank you MoveOn!

[Eric J in MN]

57. There is no deceit in a bumper sticker. There is also no

deceit when thousands of people send the same exact letter to Congress, because the Congressional staff sees that it's the same.

MoveOn is only sending one "pre-written" letter to each newspaper to deceive editors into thinking the letter is unique when it's not.

[funkybutt]

33. I've used similar letters to write to my representatives and senators

call me an idiot but it was really a time saving tool. Also, i've edited them before and added my personal spin to them. I think the AFL-CIO uses a similar way so it's not really a republican tactic.

[Eric J in MN]

34. It's different. A letter-to-the editor is supposed to be your own

words.

With a letter to Congress, it doesn't matter. A letter to Congress isn't for publication.

It's fine to send pre-written letters to Congress.

Sending someone else's words to a newspaper is slimy and deceitful.

[goclark]

39. I sent my own words!

Move On absolutely gives you the option to write your own words!

This is the age of the internet and it is a new day.

Why do we have to continue to do things like before?

Why are you being so negative about this? Even if it works for 19 newspapers, what is wrong with anyone writing Move On's suggestions or their own words to a newspaper?

This is putting down my right to free speech. I hope that other posters will not let you stop them from supporting Move On in their effort to make a difference. I will not allow you to tell me how to correspond with anyone at any time.

[Eric J in MN]

52. Newspapers don't want to print the same exact letters

as other newspapers.

MoveOn created a tool which could cause that, if it hasn't already.

[goclark]

40. You can write your o-w-n words!!

[Eric J in MN]

53. Yes, but MoveOn shouldn't have a tool in which people

send identical Letters to the Editor, with or without telling them they can use their own words, instead.

[NightOwwl]

46. Those sample letters

Every sample letter I've seen suggests sending to the following addressees:
President Bush, Senators, Representatives and election officials.

I've been a moveon member for a long time, and I never got the impression they were suggesting using their example for a LTTE. Anyway, I don't think moveon should be blamed for something that was never their intent.

[Eric J in MN]

51. We are talking about this webpage:

http://www.moveon.org/lte/lte.html?lte_campaign_id=7&zi

Sending the same exact letters to officials is fine and something I participate in.

A Letter to the Editor is different. A Letter to the Editor is supposed to be one's own words.


The difference is that
Letters to govt officials aren't intended for publication, and Letters to the Editor are.

[in_cog_ni_to]

41. I LIKE the sample letters!

I used my own letter with a few points out of their sample letters. What's wrong with that? Nothing. Even if someone wants to use Moveon's letter, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that....IT'S CONVENIENT! EASY! It gets more letters sent. Sending a ton of letters is the point of the letter campaign. :hi:

[Eric J in MN]

54. The design is to deceive an editor into thinking he's

receiving a unique letter, when he's not.

Liberals shouldn't rely on deceit.

[Dastard Stepchild]

42. It's like a greeting card...

Really, one should use a blank sheet of paper and a pen to pour out their emotions, but sometimes it's easier for some to run to Hallmark and just buy the card. Not yer words, but the intent is there.
I can understand your disappointment, but perhaps you'll feel reassured knowing that it is more often the "volume" of replies, rather than the "creativity" of the replies, that gets the message across. At least this is the impression I got when speaking with our State Rep's aide on our recent trip to D.C. And from a gal I know that is the managing editor of a local paper.
In this case, when nothing is showing up in print (e.g. a letters to the editor section of the paper), I am less concerend with letters being a form letter, and more concerned with volume of replies.

[Eric J in MN]

55. With a greeting card, there is no deceit. The point of the MoveOn

tool in Step 2 of the webapage:
http://www.moveon.org/lte/lte.html?lte_campaign_id=7&zi

is to deceive an editor into thinking he's receiving a unique letter, when he's not.

[Dastard Stepchild]

62. Thanks for the link....

it's not the best practice, but it isn't personally ruffling my feathers that much. If I were an editor, I wouldn't feel personally duped, as this tends to be an increasingly popular form of opinion communication - though it does water down the debate a bit. But, as I said in my original post, I can understand the disappointment.

[Democat]

44. We need to win, screw being "nice" or whatever it is

We need to win. We need to do everything legal to win.

The other side will do everything legal and many illegal things.

You are complaining because MoveOn is making it easy for people to write letters to the editor?

In this case, you are wrong and MoveOn is right on target. Nothing personal, but we need to win. Losers have no power in government.

Most of us are sick of losing.

[goclark]

59. Yes ! Yes! Yes!

Who cares what is Politically Correct!

Since when did we get Brownie Points for being PC ?

If fact if we look back at the 2000 election we will see that we were PC and wrong!

Move On is doing so many fantastic things to win this election. To see them trashed because they give suggestions about what to write is beyond me.

I wrote my letter by looking at their suggestions and holding down the delete button and composing MY O - W - N letter.

I certainly hope that this thread will inspire people to use the option instead of bashing .

The link is listed in my post above.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

47. Working Americans are too busy paying off Bush tax cuts to have time for

writing their own letters.

[Ducks In A Row]

60. Don't know about that

some people need help getting started

[jbm]

61. I agree with you

A year or so ago there was absolute outrage on this very site because the repubs were caught doing the 'astroturf' thing. It is not o.k. to object to them doing it,and then find ways to justify it so we can do it. "Values of convenience" are a neo-con thing. I expect a higher standard from liberals.