Immigration Concerns

[ProfLefty]

I am very much concerned with the current neocon reactionary groundswell which is aimed at sealing our borders. This country was built on immigration both legal and illegal. The current neocon movement to halt most immigration will not only negatively impact our economy but also our society. The scheme to seal our borders from immigration is not only racist (notice they never talk about our canadian borders only our southern borders) it also smacks of cultural elitism.

[CaTeacher]

1. You are 100% correct--

this is transparently disguised racism against "brown" people. America has always been a great country of immigrants--we need to open up our hearts to people who come here looking for opportunity. We also should provide more programs to help them find good jobs and assimilate into society.

[ProfLefty]

3. Right you are.

Believe me these immigrants contribute far more than they take from our society. Here in Cali we wouldn't even get food to market without their backbreaking labor. Notice in conjunction with that that very few immigration busts occur during the growing and harvest seasons.

[Lucky Luciano]

2. I think b*sh is weighing this issue very carefully.

On the one hand he of course despises brown people and would prefer to keep their presence to a minimum.

On the other hand he and his cronies could use a few gardners and maids and others cheap laborers to do the work not fit for whitey to do.

I am sure one of these days he will figure out which way to go suits him best!

[sadiesworld]

4. Current neocon movement to halt most immigration?!

What tripe. The current cabal is looking for ADDITIONAL ways to import cheap labor to the US. Granted, they don't want to confer citizenship(that tends to interfere with the "cheap" part of the equasion) but have no fear...our "guest worker" program isn't going away anytime soon. :eyes:

Nonetheless, your concerns are duly noted "Prolefty".

[ProfLefty]

5. Half right.

Unfortunately the new mantra for cheap labor is OUTSOURCING. That way the work is done elsewhere and the immigrants stay out of the rw's pristine version of Amerika. Also along the same line of reasoning are the maquilladoras...manufacturing plants south of the border whose headquarters and bigwigs are all located right here in the good old USA.

[Lucky Luciano]

6. outsourcing is for white collar jobs telephone jobs and manufacturing...

but nonmanufacturing blue collar jobs often go to the Mexicans and b*sh is aware of that - by increasing the labor pool with open borders wages will remain low.

[CaTeacher]

7. Yes!

Thank you, ProfLefty, for educating us about this complicated situation.

[sadiesworld]

8. And what say you of the proposed Indo-US FTA?

It seems that * is perfectly content to mar the "rw's pristine version of Amerika" with oodles of Indian doctors, programmers and accountants.

Sorry, I'm not buying your spiel. Being concerned about the availability of decent jobs and the preservation of the middle class doesn't make me a racist.

A vibrant DIVERSE American population with equal opportunity and a level playing field? Absolutely. A bag of tricks designed to drive down wages and make people feel guilty about being concerned about their next paycheck? Not a chance.

[ProfLefty]

12. Sadie

You make some good points and do so intelligently but, let me assure that most of the immigrants streaming over our southern borders are not and never will threaten middle class jobs. These people overwhelmingly do the very worst and most menial tasks in our society...things that most other Americans would never do. And lets not forget that much of the land we now hold used to be theirs...it was taken from them in a war that was nothing more than a naked land grab.

[ronabop]

9. Southern border lockdown=amazingly stupid.

Ok. I grew up in southern Arizona, aka, a part of what was once Mexico. What will happen if we seal the southern border?

It's quite simple. Coyotes (immigrant smugglers) will get more expensive, as americans of various nations and colors fly to Canada before going south. If you thought the US/Mexico border was porous, check out the US/Canada border. "Wetbacks" will become "snowbacks".

I'm quite convinced that the only way to handle this equation is to require fair trade agreements. Free trade is a disasterous failure, for both sides.

-Bop

[ProfLefty]

10. Right you are Ronabop!

[CaTeacher]

11. I agree--and what about the poor

people who die trying to get across the border? I certainly do not want to feel responsible for the deaths of these poor people.

We need to make it as easy as possible for people to come here and participate in the American dream.

[ProfLefty]

13. As Always.

You are so right cateacher. All these people want is the same thing that all of our forefathers wanted a chance to pursue their dreams in a classless and colorblind society.

[CaTeacher]

16. Sadly, I think that most of this "anti-immigration"

sentiment is just thinly disguised racism. Why else would people turn a blind eye to those who suffer and die trying to reach this country? It is extremely heartless.

[ringmastery]

14. What American dream?

Our economy sucks. Sorry, but we need to be worrying about finding our current citizens jobs. I'm most concerned about highly-skilled immigrants with collge degrees getting H1 visas to work here.

[QC]

25. Would you feel the same way if your school system

began importing foreign teachers, paying them half what they pay you, and requiring you to train your own replacement?

I'm not trying to be a wiseass by asking this question--it is precisely what has happened to a number of tech workers.

[CaTeacher]

37. we were talking about the people who come

into America over the Mexican border--most of these people are not coming here to steal professional, skilled jobs. They are willing to work do things that us Amerikans don't like doing--like working 14 hour days picking grapes in the hot sun. The reason they do this is just to give their children to opportunity to come to this country. I for one, am not willing to deny them this opportunity.

The skilled professionals who come to this country do not usually have to come in illegally--their situation is an entirely different one. Usually they make decent wages and have benefits as well--I am more concerned about the people who die trying to get here and are treated like animals while they are here.

[QC]

39. Well, most recent immigrants are not migrant grape pickers.

America is not just California writ large, you know. In my part of the country, most are doing factory work and construction, which means, like it or not, that they are competing with our own blue-collar workers, who have already taken a beating from union-busting and stagnant wages.

And I quite agree with you about migrant agricultural workers. They are amazing people and work like few of us can imagine under conditions that most of us would not believe without seeing them. I spent a summer working in a migrant ed program near Sacramento a few years and found people living today in oh-so-enlightened California like Mississippi sharecroppers of the 1930's. It was certainly a shock to me to see such poverty, though I grew up decidedly working-class myself, and gave me no end of respect for farm workers.

My point, which you evaded by bringing up the grape pickers, was that you would no doubt be less sunny about mass immigration if it threatened your livelihood.

[Strelnikov_]

47. Most Of These Jobs Are Undesireable Because Of Low Wages

and criminal working conditions.

As an example, meatpacking jobs (in the Midwest) paid a middle class wage ($20/hr+ in 2000 $) in the 70's. These jobs provided good health care and retirement benefits because they were unionized. As was related by a worker from this era, the social contract was that it was hard, dangerous work that left most workers crippled when they retired, and the compensation was commiserate.

Over the 70's and 80's non-union plants were opened, and the unionized plants closed or the unions busted. As compensation was much lower at the non-union plants, U.S. citizens abandoned the industry, and the labor void was filled with immigrants. Since the supply of this labor is virtually unlimited, compensation and workplace safety has plummeted.

The 70's era worker, in the interview I heard, indicated that there would be no problem attracting U.S. citizens to the industry if compensation and workplace conditions were similar to the unionized plants of the 70's.

So, it appears to me that (uncontrolled) immigrant labor fills a void that it perpetuates, low wages that make the jobs undesirable due to an oversupply of labor, the classic supply/demand relationship.

[ronabop]

48. I *am* a tech worker.

Speaking for my field, a badly needed economic adjustment has been a long time in coming. I was pulling in $300 an hour (not a typo) for gigs that required no more than a few years of education in LDAP, sendmail, and MX issues.

That being said, I can't wait until US corporations realize that the CEO, CFO, and COO (etc.) are all fairly easy jobs that can all be outsourced to India, for a tenth of the wage. The stockholders will see the profit potentials, and it's only a matter of time before even the semi-protected classes of wage-and-salary-earners have to take a larger look at their business policies.

[Sirveri]

15. Yes the country was built on immigration.

But we still need to be able to control the levels of immigration we get. We need to penalise the employers of illegal immigrants, and we need to insure that some brown person who doesn't speak spanish and 50 of his freinds don't cross the border in order to screw with us. Those brown people most often come from Canada, but well we'll look at that later.

On edit; brown person is said with sarcastic intent, and I am refferring to the person with the South African passport who came across the Southern Border. If need be I will edit this again to further clarify the post.

[CaTeacher]

17. Which "brown" people are you

referring to, Sirveri?

[Sirveri]

20. why those arabs silly.

It was partially sarcastic. BTW.

[CaTeacher]

24. Why would you worry about them?

After all, you can protect yourself from anything with your BIG GUN--right?

[Sirveri]

27. HA!

You don't know me that well.

I don't own a firearm.
So uhhh... I guess I could take that as a compliment.

Honestly I don't worry that much about them, I worry more about Bush and his ilk. In fact if we simply went isolationist and cut our ties with Israel they'd probably just go away and leave us alone and fight it out amongst each other.

You see, if anything, when it comes to foreign affairs I'm almost a isolationist. But then I'm reminded of WW2 and I start thinking that it's a bad idea. So y'know I'm kinda divided on the whole thing.

[athena]

33. Are you aware that

a larger percentage of first-generation immigrants are millionaires than non-immigrants (see The Millionaire Next Door). What this means is that many of those "brown" immigrants are starting businesses and providing jobs for your "white" Americans. (Think about all those ethnic restaurants and gas stations and food stores.) Most (white) people born in America reject the risks and headaches associated with starting a business. By isolating yourself, you won't save jobs, you'll only keep out potential successful businesspeople.

Furthermore, most of the scientific research (especially in math and physics) in this country is done by foreign scientists. The U.S. owes its leadership in science to the talented minds it buys from other countries. The isolationist policies of B* are already discouraging those talented minds from moving to the U.S. (See May 3, 2004 NYT article "The U.S. Is Losing Its Lead in the Sciences".)

[newyawker99]

36. Hi athena!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[ProfLefty]

18. Racism?

This smacks of outright racism. I hope sincerely that is not the case. We should never allow ourselves to fear any or all people of a certain hue. Proflefty's own grandfather immigrated here from south america and proflefty is often mistaken for being "foreign" or a fresh over the border immigrant. Let me assure you that when that happens it is quite disconcerting and disheartening.

[Sirveri]

21. No it's not racism.

Racism is such a fucking bullshit card to play.

I was refferring to the person who infiltrated the country over the Mexican border with a South African passport. That person was brown and Arab.

Brown but doesn't speak spanish.

[ProfLefty]

19. Hey Sirveri

What about most African Americans...they didn't immigrate here willingly in your Amerika should we get rid of them as well?

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProfLefty]

23. Shame!

Earlier you made some valid and even somewhat legitimate points but, your most recent post contains language that I find offensive as well as references which are unmentionably horrendous. I will not dignify it with any response other than this.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CaTeacher]

28. It is not all about you--

there are other people in the world--and some of them are offended by this word.

Do you not have any clue as to why some people would find it offensive to use this kind of language? Or why it bothers some people to talk of lynching?

Perhaps you would feel more comfortable on a RW web site?

[Sirveri]

30. So what?

Why is it my problem if others are offended? The only way it negatively impacts me is if I wish to engage in constructive debate. Which it's too late in the night for me to bother with. So screw it, I'll say it how I see it.

As for right wing sites. I frequent 2 of them, they're both blogs, those people are insane. I do it mainly to search for causes of the cult like behaviour. It actually leads me to believe that one way or the other there will be a civil war in our future. But I come here to relax among similarly minded folks. I don't expect everyone to come over to my style of thinking, if I wanted that I'd join the GOP.

[ProfLefty]

29. Okay!

Whatever my friend. I respect your right to say whatever is on your mind. However, I must reiterate that I, personally find some of your language and references to be offensive and inflammatory. Furthermore I am not sure if this particular site is the right outlet for some of your views and opinions. Nonetheless I do wholeheartedly respect your right to disagree with me and as I said before I think that initially you made some legitimate, valid and debatable points but your discourse degenerated from there.
Respectfully Yours,
ProfLefty

[Leilani]

31. I think you have your conservatives confused...

Neocons care nothing about illegal immigration....

Wall St Journal, National Review, Jack Kemp & his group, Grover Norquist & his group, etc etc are all in favor of increased immigration, & see no need to seal borders.

The Paleocons are dead set against illegals, & want to decrease legal immigration.

There is a huge split in the Republican Party over this issue, & many cons are pissed at Bush big time. Some of them may vote Constitution Party.

[CaTeacher]

32. actually--I am confused by this.

I must confess that I am not up on what all of those on the "right" believe. Can you explain to me what a neocon is--what a paleocon is--and how they are different?

Thanks.

[Leilani]

34. Sure...brief explanation....

Paleocons are the old time cons...against foreign wars, fiscal conservatives, not big on free trade...people like Pat Buchanan.

Neocons started out as hawkish Democrats...think Scoop Jackson, Jeanne Kirkpatrick, etc. They have now evolved into the current crime cabal: Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, Perle, etc.

The NeoCons are for corporate profits above all else...so they like immigration for cheap wages, & to hold down American wages. They are VERY pro-Israel, care not about budget deficits, want to go around the world remaking countries & contol their natural resources, such as oil. Also NeoCons are ALWAYS chickenhawks it seems.

Of course, some people overlap, & it is not always clear cut, but these are the general differences.

[Disturbed]

35. Ilegal Immigration is a problem.

The laws that are on the books are not enforced very well. Illegal immigrants do take jobs that American citizens might perform if these jobs were not under the table ones that paid below minimum wage with no benefits. Illegal immigrants are also a burden on schools and Social Services.

The trend of Corps. offering temp. jobs to non-citizen immigrants is also taking jobs away from qualified American citizens. Outsourcing and re-location of mfg. is also a huge problem but that is not exactly the same as the immigration issue. This topic is much more complicated than what I have read here, so far.

I am not anti-immigration or for building a ten foot wall around America. The borders do need to be secured a whole lot better than they are. This situation has been growing worse for a long time. I believe reasonable solutions can be attained and that would take money and political will and hard work.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. "Globalization" ensures illegal immigration.

The mulit-national corporations loot 3rd world countries, leaving the population impoverished. The people, in desperation, leave their home countries seeking a way out of poverty. Where to go? The closest country that offers work. Thus, those from Latin America come to the United States. Those closer to Europe, flock to Europe. Asians head for Japan, Australia, and now China.

The irony is that we, in the developed world, now are supposed to fear and hate the very people that we forced to leave their homes.

It's about our greed, not the desperate plight of the immigrants.

[QC]

40. "we forced to leave their homes"

"We" are not the corporate elite, unless you are one of Bush's Skull & Bones buddies. For the most part, Americans who are not among the top 1% are victims of the multinationals, just like almost everyone else in the world. And while many of these gargantuan corporations are based in the U.S., they do not consider themselves American and feel no more loyalty or commitment to this country than my dog does.

I think you are exactly right about the dynamics of world poverty and how the multinationals are largely responsible for it, but lumping all Americans into the international corporate elite in order to establish some sort of collective national guilt is mistaken.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. I agree, but "we" enable those corporations to run amok.

By voting in members of the ruling class. By our own greed for every new and shiny product they foist on us.

But, the "we" I was referring to was the "we" of the developed nations who prey on the poor and the weak. Not the individuals of those nations who usually have no concept that their latest toy or "fall fashion" statement is being produced by cheap labor at starvation wages, or with natural resources purloined by the conglomerates.

[QC]

42. Well, I'm with you there.

But I'm not sure how much power we have to control these bastards. It seems that they have so thoroughly bought our government out from under us that we have no more say in what the corporations do than the people working in their sweatshops on the other side of the world do.

On my more optimistic days I believe that we can somehow get around the enormous influence of the media conglomerates and get some candidates who are not handmaidens of the corporate elite, but then I think of how all our elections end up and lose that optimism.

[PsN2Wind]

43. The importation of labor

has much the same effect as exportation of jobs. I've worked in the construction trades and I've worked in packing houses both of which employ a large percentage of immigrants legal or illegal. Almost all of the construction in Arizona is done by immigrants. The other state in which I reside part of the year, Oregon, now sees large numbers of immigrants in the lumber mills and of tree planting contractors using large numbers of illegals. I have no problems with a guest worker program in which labor is brought in for the harvest but to continue to allow the flood of illegals across the border is poor policy.

[QC]

44. That's the most problematic aspect of mass immigration

in my opinion: the impact on wages.

The Bossman is not going to pay $10 an hour if he has a steady stream of people who will do the job for $6 an hour. We know from day-to-day life that things become cheaper as they become more plentiful, but many of us apparently think that rule suddenly doesn't apply when it comes to labor. But the truth is that a large labor pool holds down wages. That's why the powers that be have always been careful to keep unemployment at a certain level--to prevent wage inflation.

Does this mean that I think we should close the borders? Not at all. But it does mean that we have to protect wages, and pretending that mass importation of cheap labor doesn't hurt anybody is pure foolishness.

[PsN2Wind]

45. I call it the "trickle up effect"

If you are hanging sheetrock in Tucson and an illegal goes to your boss and offers to work for less money and the boss knows his paperwork is phony, you're gone. Now the boss can pay this fellow less and put back in his pocket the unfortunates withheld taxes and FICA. It's like he is now only having to pay $4.00/hour and pays no comp insurance or any bennies. Therefore you the, taxpaying citizen, have to go out and try to undercut someone else at their job. Increase the labor pool, lower the value of labor. That doesn't require a degree in economics to figure out. On the other hand if you're a tenured teacher in CA.....

[ronabop]

49. Another solution...

<tucsonan language>
Become a bossman. Become the best bossman in Tucson. Get a reputation for taking all of the workers to McMahon's once a month. Treat your workers so well that you get the best ones applying for work, and you become a local legend for having the fastest, cleanest, smartest, most reliable,'rockers in the city.

Sure, you'll get less bread-and-butter POS Don Diamond/Pulte development work, but you get to cherry pick the primo jobs, the ones that need speed and quality over price.
</tucsonan language>

Apple Computers aren't the cheapest, but they're still in business. See also: IBM, BMW, Cannondale, Sony, Kenwood, Motorola, and any number of other companies who make their money on something other than having the lowest purchase costs.

Feel free to counter with Nike, DKNY (well, clothing in general), and any number of other companies who are producing crappy products with a quality "reputation", it's a good argument to make. FWIW, nobody I know who bought a Diamond house for the "Quality" will ever do so again.

[Strelnikov_]

46. What We Now Have Is A Black Market For Labor

We need a guest worker program to stop the exploitation of immigrants and end the flooding of the labor market due to uncontrolled immigration.

Some thoughts on immigration policy from John Sayles.

John Sayles
From:A People's Democratic Platform
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040802&c=5&s=forum

"The Democratic platform should call for an end to the hypocrisy of our immigration policy. Our current policy, an enormously expensive cat-and-mouse game, most notably on our southern border, calls on the INS to enforce immigration laws that are openly expected to be ignored by countless US industries and private employers. Some sort of regulated guest-worker program is needed.

Once it is in place, if immigrants continue to enter the country illegally and can't find work, word will filter back and the numbers will decrease dramatically. While in our country, however, those guest workers need to be protected from exploitation--to be assured they will be paid for their work, that their working conditions will meet state and federal safety standards and that they will receive no less than the federally mandated minimum wage (which needs to be raised).

Employers would be required to withhold some percentage (perhaps the equivalent of federal taxes and Social Security) from wages to help defray the costs of the program. Penalties for hiring foreign workers outside of the program would be high enough (and sufficiently enforced) to end the black market in labor that is thriving now.

Protecting all workers in this country is an important first step toward the amendment or abolition of NAFTA and the protection of workers throughout the world."