General Clark sits on the fence again, beats around the Bush - CNN

[Wonk]

just now during an interview on Crossfire. He gave another non-commital answer as to whether or not he's running in '04 and whether or not he's even a member of the Democratic Party.

I'll add links later as they become available.

on edit: 4.5 M mp3

[RememberJohn]

1. So you didn't like the truth he told...?

Paraphrased: The Democrats are the party of the common people but have lacked the resourses the GOP has... So they've been defined in Republican terms...

Sounds like a pro-democrat message to me.

[dean4america]

2. didn't like his performance...

at all -- I'd vote for him, no problem, and hope Dean picks him as VP, but he could never be my first choice.

[paulk]

50. well, that seems fairly obvious

considering your tag, "dean4america"....

[shockandawed]

3. this man is stunned by his popularity and has NO vision

He may have integrity. He may have an honest conscience. That is not all it takes to be a president. Joint chiefs or something, but not president. He only is impressive because he is a soldier with a mind. If he were just another politician, he would be stiff, unimaginative, inexperienced for such an important office, and lacks true policy positions or vision.

This man appeals to those looking for the father figure or the tough uncle who can clean up this town. This is the same mentality that got Bush elected but only on the left. He is inexperienced, and is simply a characature of what a leader should look and talk like. He may be smarter, more articulate, more accomplished than Bush, but that is not saying much.

He is a well intended, upstanding American who should do the right thing and join someone's campaign either as an eventual VP or cabinet figure. President Clark? No fucking way. I will never trust a military figure to run our country, especially when Clark has been shown to be NOT PROUD TO BE A DEMOCRAT (HE STILL WILL NOT SAY WHAT PARTY HE IS IN) and HE HAS BEEN SHOWN TO BE IN BED WITH MILITARY CONTRACTORS.

FUCK CLARK.

[Julien Sorel]

4. The voice of wisdom and reason has made itself heard.

Why Democrats get their asses kicked in elections #140

[Cocoa]

6. I wish Clark would stop pointing at me

it's creeping me out. :scared:

[kstewart33]

7. You say it so well, Billy

Clark is the only electable candidate. Period. That's why I'm for him, besides his military record, his brilliance, his character and the fact that he would make mincemeat of Bush in any debate.

Which candidate do you think scares Rove the most? Dean? Please. No, I think it's the guy who graduated first in his class at West Point. And how did Bush do at Yale?

If he wants to beat around the bush a while longer, that's ok with me. He must have his reasons.

[Proud_American]

43. Very well said kstewart33

I have to admit I really don't know much about Clark (from a policy point of view), but my sixth sense is telling me that this guy has that Clintonesque way with words and the best chance of winning back the WH.

[sujan]

60. HE IS NOT A CANDIDATE

YOUR MAN CAN'T EVEN DECIDE WHERE HE STANDS.....SO MUCH FOR NOMINATION.

[Lefty48197]

10. Clark reminds me of Jimmy Carter

Clark is quite humble and honest, just like the former President. I don't care if Wesley isn't flashy enough for some Democratic Primary voters. I've been listening to his message, and he is clearly on the side of the working class. I can't wait for his book to come out.

[waggawagga]

85. Hmmm

Clark is like Jimmy Carter but in ways which I think aren't flattering. He's too pleased with himself. He has this air of someone who thinks he's the smartest person in the room when he isn't (though he is smart). He's someone who needs to get over himself. And if he does that he might have something to offer.

If he runs I don't think he'll get more than a few points in any primary. I'm trying to figure out why. Here's the best I can suggest. Clinton often did come off as the smartest person in the room (he was certainly someone who realized his own abilities) but he had this talent for putting people at ease. He knew that forming connections mattered and that he could learn things from others.

Clark, just going by my impression, doesn't seem to have learned this. It's ridiculous at this point that he hasn't declared some political affiliation. This creates an appearance of arrogance and egocentrism ("If I run as a Democrat you'll be lucky to have me").

Which is not how you win in politics. I'm sorry. It's not. Jimmy Carter, to his credit, balanced his arrogance (which he had) with a sincere belief in populism and a religiously-inspired humility. When people connected to Carter, and they didn't always, it was to this person.

To sum up, someone needs to give Clark a good slap. Unless he's setting himself up to be a pundit (in which case, who cares). People didn't vote for Clinton because he was a Rhodes scholar. This might sound cynical but I think many voted for him despite this.

[Pastiche423]

You nailed it

"This man appeals to those looking for the father figure or the tough uncle who can clean up this town."

Big daddy w/a big gun.

But not big enough to state he is a proud Democrat. His coyness and/or waffling is a big turn-off. Plus he he listening to repugs and working w/military contractors.

When did this board turn against Proud Democrats?

[Julien Sorel]

19. When people like you began pretending

to be competent to define what a Proud Democrat is.

[Cocoa]

21. what?

I don't get it.

[Pastiche423]

29. It was a juvenile response

due to not being able to defend the indefensible.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[waggawagga]

86. I'll Go One Step Further

"This man appeals to those looking for the father figure or the tough uncle who can clean up this town."

I don't think that's it. Clark appeals to those who think that voters will be impressed by a general. They sense that Americans are rather unsophisticted. In times of danger they'll seek out someone in a uniform.

And they won't. Clark is not Eisenhower, Schwarzkopf, or even Powell. The reason these generals were popular was because the public had gone through an actual war with them. They'd come to trust them. The public regarded them as known quantities.

I think the Clark team just doesn't understand how unknown their guy is to most voters. If he enters the race he'll be someone who has to present himself for the first time.

So there's some self-delusion going on here.

[damnyankee2601]

12. Stop attacking potential Bush destroyers.

Rove and Co. will do plenty of character assasination on all the candidates. Lou Dobbs already got started on Clark for them. They don't deserve any help from us.

[wildwww2]

54. Lou Dobbs= just another Bu$h Inc. prostitute. That `s his job to trash

good men like Clark. And to promote a court appointed drunken idiot as our county`s leader. Bu$h could not manage a McDonalds without being shut down by the health dept. And if Dobbs was anything more than a paid liar. He would come out and say so on his show.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[laruemtt]

13. oh my bad - my first reaction when i read

"FUCK CLARK" was NOT what a happily married woman should be thinking..

[DrBlix]

24. He beats around the Bush alright.

You've got it right....he's in bed with the defense contractors. I may run....I'm a republican...no I'm a democrat.....I may run on the independent ticket. Will the real Clark please stand up.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

31. Thank You for Marginalizing Yourself

I will never trust a military figure to run our country,

I'm glad you made it so easy and clear for any and all reasonable readers to understand.

DTH

[robbedvoter]

49. There, there - find someone else to f*. Whatever your reasons

to be threatened, Dr Freud wouldn't agree.
I for one do not need any father/uncle anything - just an electable candidate. One who opposes the war, is not an NRA shill, did not vote for anti-choice /flag burning amendment thinghies. he is articulate, can run circles against media whores (see TMP - compare it with Dean's performance), and on top of it can laugh down W's heroic poses without having to actually re-enact his mishugas. So, find a hole in a fence or sumpthin' and come back when you cooled off.

[NicRic]

65. Not as stunned as Iam !

You said it ,no exprience ,who really knows where he stands on all the issuses ? Iam amazed at the energy and effort put by others on Draft Clark .If we are going to draft anyone ,it should be Gore, exprience, a proven record ,already recieved more votes then bush. Gore's recent speech shows he is inline with all the frustrations, we in the Dem party are feeling !

[sendero]

5. I've been very interested in Clark...

... but he needs to cook or get out of the kitchen. Every day he waffles around a little of my enthusiam for him is gone.

[Julien Sorel]

Duplicate

[Julien Sorel]

9. You're going to be waiting for 10 days -- at least.

That's just the way it is.

[Upfront]

22. I'm Not

I have seen enough which party am I crap, be a man and tell it like it is, ah, like the good Dr. !

[Kahuna]

33. You're going to give General Clark lessons on being a man now?

That's a good one. I think Clark proved his manhood a long time ago. What did you do to prove your manhood?

[lindashaw]

67. Me, too.

My first instincts swallowed Clark's brilliance, which is considerable. And his manner, which is even more brilliant. But he is operating on the theory of "Don't Announce Anything in August," which is gospel to the Republicans. And I suspect he is using Arnold's masterful stroke of keeping people wondering until the announcement. All good theater. But the longer is goes on, the more uneasy I feel. Something is askew here. It bothers me, and I never feel bothered when I watch Dean.

[HootieMcBoob]

77. He's said a million times

That he will let his decision be known around Labor Day.

[Lefty48197]

8. Maybe next weekend

he'll announce his intentions. Maybe the next weekend, but he has a big announcement coming up very soon. I'm looking forward to his decision.

[NewJerseyDem]

11. He is starting to annoy me

He keeps on saying that he is only considering a run because there are just so many people who are begging him to run for president. It really sounds conceited when he says that. Nobody would have ever even thought of him if he hadn't started making speeches and visiting New Hampshire so that the media started to say that he might run. He should just make a decision or shut up and stop flattering himself.

[damnyankee2601]

16. Get over it.

The primaries will sort it out, go vote. Then we all need to get behind the winner. There is no greater cause than unseating Bush.

[Kahuna]

34. Starting? I could swear that you've been copying and pasting this same..

message for weeks now.

[Khephra]

14. I'm starting to get a strong feeling that he's going to run

as an independent. Joining up with the Democratic Party really doesn't give him anything, as much of the Party support will go to the traditional candidates. People call Dean an outsider, but in terms of party loyalty, Clark is REALLY an outsider.

He's playing the whole "Democrats and Republicans like me" card a bit too strongly for my comfort.

Clark will run as an independent. I'm pretty damn sure of it now.

[Pastiche423]

20. That is the way it has seemed

to me since the beginning of the draft clark campaign. He has repeatedly refused to say which party he would be affliated w/if he does indeed decide to run.

And if that is the course he decides to take, it will be rough sailing, as there are few indy activists that will get out and work for him.

[tjdee]

41. Like the "few indy activists" that raised over 600K and put out an ad for

him??

Ooohhhhhhhhhh.

Pastiche, Pastiche, Pastiche.... why do you dislike the candidates I like so much, LOL....why.... (um, I know why, it's a rhetorical question....)

[Pastiche423]

53. Although it was a rhetorical question, tjdee

I will answer it anyway.

As most people do, I look for a candidate that most supports the issues that mean the most to me.

Your pretty boy candidate lost any smidgeon of a chance for my vote over his idiotic and cruel vote to make my life harder and more miserable as I age w/a disability. You honestly will never understand unless you become disabled too.

I was well into my sixth year post injury when the Americans w/Disabilities Act was signed. It took hard work by many groups to get that far. I was a part of that.

By voting FOR a judge that publically stated he wanted to weaken the already weakening ADA, Edwards said fuck you to all of us that worked so hard to get the miserly act passed.

Then Edwards voted for the slaughter.

Clark. IMHO, the arrogant Perfume Prince is gaming everyone. He admits he is flattered by being courted by the Dems and by the repukes. So flattered he is, that he can't make up his mind which one will promote his rise to the top better. So flattered he is, that he won't publically say IF he will run or IF he will run as a Democrat.

Although you and I have the same state in common, our lives are vastly different. Therefore, our priorities are vastly different.

You support war.
I support peace.

Does that answer your question?

[tjdee]

58. I didn't know you lived in Jersey!

I don't support war, either, but I realize a brick wall when I'm up against it.
:)

[Kahuna]

35. How can you say that? Today and last night on Faux he endorsed..

a TWO PARTY SYSTEM. Not a three party system. So why would you think he will run as an indie?

[Qutzupalotl]

47. I doubt it.

He's smart enough to realize that Bush supporters won't be swayed and he'll only wind up splitting the Democrat vote, and losing. And he wants Bush out of office BAD.

[Felix Mala]

15. Weather Report

In other news... Texans were shocked by an icy breeze blowing through Crawford...

[sham]

17. yawn...

I'll vote for him if he's the nom, but I'm awfully tired of this. Coyness is unbecoming in a general, Mr. Clark.

[Upfront]

18. I no longer care.

Give me a democrat! Screw Clark and the rethug horse he is riding. I think he is working for the rethugs to confuse and split the democrats. Give me a Democrat! Howard Dean knows which party he belongs to. I just watched crossfire and it pissed me off. Sorry.

[Nashyra]

23. He has repeatedly stated

that he will make a decision towards the emd of Aug. or begining of Sept. It is not his fault that the press won't give up asking for a decision. As much as I want to see him run I respect the fact that he is sticking to his own game plan. His son has stated that he will NOT run as an independent.

Go Clark

[Pastiche423]

25. But it is his fault

that he won't state that he is a Proud Democrat!

[Kahuna]

36. He's a PROUD AMERICAN who offered his life to preserve..

the very constitution that the bushies now trash. Too bad you can't appreciate that.

[Pastiche423]

37. A proud American

does not make one a Proud Democrat.

Please tell me exactly what the Perfume Prince did to preserve our Constitution? Was our country under attack? Were our freedoms and liberties under attack?

[tjdee]

42. The Perfume Prince?

That's adorable.

Maybe we can call Dean a nice adult name like that?

Gotta think up a good one.

[Pastiche423]

51. The lovely moniker, The Perfume Prince

was bestowed upon Clark by Col David Hackworth:

http://www.hackworth.com/20Apr99.html

[graham67]

75. Hackworth....

responded to a Clarkies' email with the message that he's trying to interview Clark. Maybe Hack has stepped away from the dark side. :-)

[Avalon Sparks]

26. "Beats around the Bush"

Well, well, well~

I remember very clearly that Bush* kept speculation afloat about whether he would throw his fake cowboy hat into the GOP primary just a couple of years ago. However, I don't remember journalists or CNN using phrases like "Bush beats around the Bush" or "Bush sitting on the fence" to describe his actions.

[Wonk]

27. The headline to this thread was mine, not CNN's.

DU LBN rules are slightly different when it comes to published articles and breaking news on TV.

[Avalon Sparks]

30. Oh thanks Wonk~

I guess I thought I was in LBN... I thought CNN was running that on their ticker.. lol

[DeaconBlues]

28. I think Clark is playing it smart

By not coming out an giving his party affiliation he can bash the Bush junta all he wants without being dismissed as just another partisan opportunist.

The American people believe that they like outsiders and candidates who are bipartisan, even though there is no such thing as a politician who matches those characteristics. Clark is wise to nuture an image of being a person who is above politics as usual.

[Upfront]

32. He Is So Smart

He has lost my vote forever. I don't buy this waffel bull, you are with us or against us, and I no longer care.

[joycep]

39. I really believe Clark can make hash out of Bush

So I am hoping he runs as a Democrat. Unless there is something about him that we don't know I think he can win big.

[IndianaGreen]

38. This is not the time to be playing Hamlet

Either he is in, or he is out! Need I remind you that we have many people that would like Clark to enter the race. Clark owes them a commitment one way or the other!

I don't know much about Clark's political views, other than the fact that he favors lifting the ban on gays in the military.

[DeaconBlues]

40. I may be wrong

but didn't Clinton take until October of '91 to throw his hat into the ring? Some of us political junkies at DU may be a little frustrated with Clark's timing, but I think the American people run on a different schedule.

[IndianaGreen]

44. The problem may be that, unlike 1991, funding and endorsements

are needed a lot earlier. Dean may be raising more money, but Gephardt is getting key endorsements from labor unions (which also translates into money and volunteers).

The longer Clark delays, the least likely he is to have an impact on the race.

My gut feeling is that Clark will decide not to run in the Democratic race. Clark could run as a Republican or independent.

[Julien Sorel]

46. Clark owes his supporters, and this party, a commitment to doing

whatever will maximize his chance at getting elected -- period. This whole 'proud Democrat' nonsense, and the idea that he should deviate from his previously stated (many, many times, I might add), position, that he would announce when he was ready, is primarily sniping from partisans of the other candidates -- especially Dean.

If he gets into the race, the voters will decide what a 'proud Democrat' is, the voters will decide what he does and does not owe them, not some of the more twisted members of this message board.

[0007]

45. Would Clark run as a republican

if he had the best chance to become president?

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

55. Clark Is A Democrat

In October, 2002 he visited New Hampshire to endorse Democratic candidate Katrina Swett in her race against Charles Bass. He also went to Georgia to endorse Democrat Max Cleland in his race against Saxby Chambliss. He also has met with Democrat fund raisers including Alan Patricof. He's voted as a Democrat, he continually expresses the Democratic Party's point of view in interview-after-interview, and he has defended such Democrats as Howard Dean and Bill Clinton when they get attacked. No Republican would say or do such things. Why is it so important that he declare himself as a Democrat before he declares himself as a candidate? Aren't the issues more important than the party? Do you want a Zell Miller Democrat to run for President, whose official party affiliation means virtually nothing? I'm confident that when Clark declares his candidacy, it will be as a Democrat. Lately, you might notice in his TV interviews that he no longer denies that he's a Democrat, but only that he hasn't yet decided to announce whether he will run. Last night, for example, he asked Hannity if there was anything wrong in being a Democrat. Would a Republican looking for Republican Party support and funding say that?

[quam]

61. Didn't Clark Also Contribute to Democratic Candidates?

I think he has made financial contributions to democratic campaigns and the DNC, right?

[TacticalPeek]

48. cut & paste...like Hammity yelling last nite for Clark to declare,

I can barely take seriously these absurd "concerns" that Clark is a Repug, or "ashamed" Dem, or indie, or confused. Next there will be a "theory" that he is a "stealth Green".

Plant, water and grow a clue!

Some of the apoplexy above over this sounds very similar to the Huffing Ham last night. Both amount to unrestrained screaming of "TELL US! TELL US! TELL US NOW!". Whaaaaa? Or else we won't be your friend?

I know where His Hammitiness' yelling is coming from. Its a current pug point used whenever possible against any criticism of aWol: "Oh, you're just partisan. You're only saying X about ______ (IraqNam, economy, deficit...) because you're trying to get elected. You're just playing to the extreme left of the Democrat Party to get the nomination. You're dismissable."

The chimp used it last week between brush cutting and golf ball slicing. Something about, Aw, that's just politics, just guys running for office, you know they'll say anything. Shucks, just dismiss 'em. (Press presses playback on handheld recorder, presses to ear, mills around mumbling "dems are about politics", "dems just seeking office", "dems dismissable"...Flash: "pay no attention to those politikin' dems over there". Wow, look at that drive.)

The Puffed Ham knew Clark would not announce anything on his slimey show. He is pissed that he can't hammer Clark as a dem, so he tried to get mileage by poking him for not declaring demness. And my man was getting the Ham pretty upset as it went along, because it was working out poorly for the planned prosecutorial cross-exam.

Don't think Clark doesn't have the coordinates already dialed in for all the possible positions on this affiliation declaration item. At the close of his appearance, note the mortar rounds stepping in closer and closer to Hambone and his implication that dems are evil. It zeros on Hambone, cornered and eyes down, reluctantly sorta admitting that he believes in the two party system! Much more RW backtracking like that and he will have miles of ideological recovery to go.

Clark's tease "ploy" is increasing his face-time on the toob, where he gets to hammer the Hammer (sweet!) and the chimp; and its probably increasing interest in his candidacy among some I's, mod R's, and otherwise nonvoters. We NEED VOTES to oust the usurper! His dem primary votes/dem affiliations are inside baseball, interesting to us, but not to most voters, yet.

I honestly think Clark has gotten at least some R's and I's thinking about: wise use of military force; fiscal accountability; foreign policy that's better for our national security, etc. Things that they can wind up moving to Clark on, away from the increasingly stained disaster area in the WH. When Clark keeps focusing on the issues, not the process, these people may be attracted to what they thought were "Republican" values, but are really simply good American values. We must reclaim that turf, which they have sullied. We may need these folks for the presidency, and we surely need them in order to take the House and Senate. We need those majorities, too, because we're going to have a lot of undoing to do.

[Donna Zen]

52. Excellent observations

From this afternoon's appearance, it suddenly dawned: he's going after bush's votes, positioning the run to the center, and using this time to plan and get free face time.

In the poll that followed his Q & A, 30% of the pugs said they would vote for Clark. 30%...My sister is one of those. This is important as well if one achieves the White House. With Congress split, any Dem will need some friends on the other side of the aisle to push legislation.

I read an interesting article last night about the Aspen conference...all of the brightest and well-heeled lights in the party were there. They are very excited about Clark.

I just checked to see if Amazon had his new book listed...No. I know it will be coming out soon. "Winning Modern War" will be a major foreign policy presentation and along with the usual book tour, I would expect the announcement. Looks as if it is all coming together.

Oh_and Clark represents my big "D" stands a thousand times more and with better clarity than that proud Dem. Lieberman does.

[graham67]

76. Book isn't listed??

I'm pretty sure I preordered it from Amazon more than a month ago. :shrug:

[Gloria]

56. This bit is getting old....if he's just toying with the idea, he should

stay off the shows. If he's going to run, set a date and announce the damned thing with all the fanfare.

Last night on Hannity, the jerk did ask a good question about this dance Clark is doing, and Clark said that contrary to Hannity's doubts, he (Clark) thought it was helping keeping the momentum going. Which sound like he's running, so he wants momentum. But frankly, I don't see this adding to the momentum......it might sour some people. I'm not committed to any candidate, but have been open to Clark. Frankly, this crap is beginning to make me wonder....

[Starpass]

57. Last I checked, Clark wasn't a moron

Geeee, ya' think he'll run as a republican???---given that that nomination goes automatically to George, what the hell would be his point??? I mean he has more brains than, say, a Nadar!! He knows a losing cause when he sees it. Of course he isn't going to run as a republican. What about an Independent....he's intelligent enough to know that when you don't have an established political party behind you, you couldn't run for the Santa Clause spot in the Macy's parade and win!!! If he's running, he's running as a Dem. And he knows that no one is paying one ounce of shit to candidates at this early stage. No one listens to politics in summer. He also is letting them blow their wads yacking to a public where 2/3 cannot name ONE Dem candidate. But as someone who waits until the Fall and then announces, he suddenly has the TV cameras on him. I have a feeling he's going to announce somewhere around Kerry's carrier speech because that is Kerry's kick off.

[tlb]

59. Getting excited over Clark is like getting excited over Arianna.

Had a general with his identical record hinted he wwould run as a republican, this board would go ballistic on his unsuitability. That he is getting the attention he is in the face of his tiresome Hamlet act is only a sign of the lack of confidence in the primary candidates.

If Dean or Kerry or one of the others can't do it, Clark won't make the difference.

[Noordam]

62. Clark is going to run under the Reform Party

is my bet.

[Justice]

63. Clark Is Running; Lighten Up!

Come on, do you really think the guy would spend the entire month of August going on talk shows if he wasn't running. He is getting more air time than any of the Dem 9. You who protest sound more like frigging Sean Hannity than a democrat - in fact, maybe that explains your behavior.

He is building momentum - he is building the buzz. 5 of my family members live in NH, among them, they are working for 3 of the other Dem candidates (it is great that they are active). Even given that, they hadn't heard alot about Clark.

As much as we mocked it, Andy Card was right, you don't introduce a new product in August.

Clark is alot more than a guy with a military background. You underestimate him.

He is running, believe me. Lighten up. The race is not tomorrow. Clinton didn't get in until October.

What I would love to see is for Clark and Kerry to pair up and run together as a team now. I think the combination would be unbeatable.

[mpsteve]

64. Clark would beat Bush in a LANDSLIDE!!!

[Hubert Flottz]

66. If Generalisimo Clark is this secretive now..............................

think about how he would run this country! We allready have a new Secret Sweeping Government in place today and Asscroft wants(DEMANDS) more power! Do we need more of this spy vs spy bullshit?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

70. Did

Generalisimo Washington, Jackson, Grant, Eisenhower govern as dictators?

Hyperbole like this is why middle Americans look at the left and snicker.

[Hubert Flottz]

71. Go look at Grant's record!

Go look what happened under Ike!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. Washington

continue to be rated as one of America's best presidents by political scientists , law professors ,and historians and Ike is in the top ten.


And given historians penchant for revisionism Grant is getting a second look .

[Hubert Flottz]

80. Ike and pals were dandies allright!

McCarthy and Eisenhower

Senator McCarthy shakes hands with Republican presidential nominee Dwight D. Eisenhower in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, October 3, 1952. Earlier that day, Eisenhower had endorsed McCarthy's bid for re-election. At center is Charles D. Ashley, Chairman of the Milwaukee County Republican Party.


http://www.apl.org/history/mccarthy/ike.html

http://www.apl.org/history/mccarthy/photos2.html

I remember how things were around here when Ike was in office! Jobs being lost then, almost as many as now! People say Reagan was a great man too I guess you buy that story also! Under Reagan unemployment was sky high!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

88. Your Quarrel Is With Academia Not Me

They put Washington at 3 and Ike at 9

http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/overall.asp

Ike's not one of my faves cuz he's a Rep but I'll give him his props for doing a good job.

Also, it's not fair to tie McCarthy around Ike's neck. Much to the chagrin of the wingnuts of his time Ike denounced McCarthy and contributed to his downfall.

[Hubert Flottz]

92. Fair went out the window FOREVER on 12/12/2000!

You started the Quarrel! Am glad you decided you don't have one now!

[tjdee]

72. Secretive like sealing your gubernatorial records?

Dean wanted to seal his gubernatorial records longer than the two governors previous to him, and was sued by three Vermont papers to get his schedule, but somehow I don't think you'll have a problem with that.

But Clark not telling us if he's a Democrat! That's "spy vs. spy"!

That's really serious stuff!

:eyes:

[Hubert Flottz]

82. RE: "seal his gubernatorial records"

It worked for Bush, where are his records? Where are Arnolds? We need to know the truth and the whole truth before we can fairly judge what we are getting! I DO NOT SUPPORT DEAN! * YET!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

69. I Feel Like Casey Casem

The hits just keep on coming...


Wes Clark is a great American.


Some brief points


Nobody knew if Ike was a Dem or a Rep. Truman begged Ike to run as a Dem and when he didn't he hated Ike for the rest of his life.

Wes Clark has an I Q > 150. He's not a blithering fool. He knows that an independent or third party candidate has never been elected president. Hell, Teddy Roosevelt couldn't win as third party and he was a former president.

The Dems have an image problem. They are perceived as weak. National security will be a threshhold issue in 04 and if the Democratic candidate is perceived as lacking in that area a majority of Americans will not listen to anything else he has to say about the economy, health care, individual rights, etcetera.

We need yo get back to the good old days of JFK, Truman, and LBJ when we elected Dems with cahones.

[Pepperbelly]

73. The personal insults and innuendo from posters is wearing quite thin.

First things first: I do not know if Wesley will run. Perhaps, if you give someone a little bit of a break, the decision, for someone who is not a career politician, may not be an easy one to make. Perhaps his family does have issues with it that he is trying to reconcile. Could it possibly be that what his wife thinks about the decision carries more weight for him than what anonymous posters on an internet forum might think? Imagine that!

The gratuitous insults from the posters here is beneath contempt. I could easily take pot shots at the cadidates favored by others but I see that as counterproductive because then, if my candidate doesn't win the nomination, it would make it far more difficult to support other candidates in the general election.

Candidly, the other candidates have left me cold. Dean, in my opinion, has as much chance at being elected President as he does Pope, looks like woodchuck, and is far too quick to go negative on other candidates. Kerry's personal charisma has won him the prize of plummeting support in the polls and he looks like a basset hound while Bob Graham, who I genuinely like, puts me to sleep. Kucinich is so stridently hysterical when he speaks that his voice squeaks and I really like the guy but President --no way. Edwards leaves me wondering what exactly he does think about foreign policy and the conduct of the nation's business internationally.

Sharpton --Al is very good but right now, the financial irregularities are undermining him and the gorilla in the middle of the room ... he's an African-American and I do not see the population of America mature enough yet to make that the non--issue that it is. Same with Braun ... financial irregularities, ties to dictators and, the same gorilla in the middle of the room with an additional one: her being a woman. Is America mature enough yet to transcend that? I doubt it. Not yet.

That leaves Gephardt, whose Rose Garden stunt with Bush is pretty difficult for me to overcome and Lieberman, whose Bush ass-kissing is even more profound than Gep's.

Of the current candidates, none would make it any higher than my 4th choice in a perfect world. All are far better than Bush and I would vote for any of them over Bush but my point is that they leave me cold.

Criticize Clark if you want but one thing is apparent --if Wesley enters the race, it becomes a two man race: Dean and Clark and if this place is much of a measurement of Democrats, it is pretty close to dead even.

So why go out of our way to trash what might be half of our own party? As so many have pointed out, none of the candidates can win without the full support of the party. Trashing your allies is no way to garner their whole-hearted support. I want to support the party nominee with my whole being so please, don't make the acrimony and bitterness the paramount memory of the primary campaign. Fight for your guy but don't be assholes to the people you are going to need should your guy win.

[Donna Zen]

84. WOW!

Great post...and spoken like a well informed Democrat with a desire to win.

In addition, I would like to remind all that the draftclark movement was started and nutured by both Democrats and republicans. Those republicans, who are sick of mc chimp, need to be congratulated for their decision to come into the light. Clark is correct to show repect to those who have the balls to cross party lines and do the right thing. I hope they decide we are not the evil doers Rush would have them believe us to be, and stay to fight shoulder to shoulder for our democracy. One of my approaches to wingers where I work is to remind them that we have many shared goals and opinions, but the powers that be prefer to keep us ignorant of that fact. As Florynce Kennedy said, "We are all termites, but if we got together, we could bring their house down."

Getting rid of bushco is a patriotic not a partisan endeavor.

[diamondsoul]

78. Thank YOU, Wonk!

It's so nice to see I'm not the only one irritated by his refusal to commit to either issue!

I LIKE CLARK, a LOT, but dammit come ON already! I'm not a big fan of mind-games and that's what I see him pulling.

[poskonig]

79. A Clark run makes Gephardt stronger, possibly victorious.

Clark isn't a direct threat to Dean since he hurts Kerry in NH. However, Clark may siphon enough votes from Dean to allow Geppy to win Iowa. If Geppy also takes South Carolina, Michigan, Oklahoma, et cetera, I see him running away with this.

:wow:

[tjdee]

81. LORD why is Gep so popular?

Is it the unions? What IS it?

He seems more interesting in a stump speech, but geez if he doesn't remind me of unbuttered toast!

[robbedvoter]

83. Only to pro-war, pro-bush Democrats - a waning demographic

I don't care how many unions endorse him, people vote as individuals - and people (yes, even GOP-ers) are sick and tired of the war.

[waggawagga]

87. Clark is the Ellen DeGeneres of the 2004 Election

Remember that looooooooooooooooooooooooooooong runup to her coming out episode? The cause was good. The situation was interesting. She strung it out for so long, though, that by the time that episode aired you couldn't help but say, "Thank god that's over, I'll never watch that show again".

That's Clark.

[Pepperbelly]

89. horseshit ...

I think that the trouble people here have understanding what Clark is doing springs from the fact that all we have ever been exposed to is the meanderings and mind games played by professional politicians. That makes it difficult to overcome their own experience of slippery pols to believe that perhaps what is hppening is that Clark is genuinely trying to come to grips with what would be a life altering decision on a scale that few of us ever contemplate. I have known Wesley for a long, long time and he has never been a game player. What he has been is an extremely contemplative man who gnaws steadily at a problem until he comes up with the best solution.

Maybe we should suspend our disbelief for a few weeks and just see what happens. At this point, I think that Wesley's decision is still unmade although he is probably leaning toward running. His wife is reluctant. He would be foolish to ignore that factoid and is no doubt torn between service to his country and loyalty to family. Perhaps she can be convinced. If she can, I think he will run. If she cannot, I don't think he will.

[TacticalPeek]

90. The problem you're having is resolvable.

In a couple of months, were he to throw his helmet in the ring, there will be observable reaction from the electorate, the candidates, the activists, the contributors, the pundits, etc. It will then be over a year until 2 Nov 04.

At that point your view may be vindicated as a perceptive "eye for the Ellen-in-uniform". Or not.

We should then meet back here, and compare and recalibrate our crystal balls.

[waggawagga]

93. Sure

I'm up for it.

[chaska]

91. Stop the insanity!!!

I will never understand how dems can bash other dems knowing that who they bash will quite possibly be the nominee. At the very least you end up looking stupid should that person actually win - at worst you damage the candidate, and help bush.

Unfortunately, there can be little doubt that there is a smear campaign going on here. The majority of the Clark threads start from a negative bias. Which candidate stands to lose the most with a Clark candidacy in the offing? Could it be Dean, who, incidentally, has been in touch with General Clark, getting a few lessons in foreign policy. Betcha didn't know that. Betcha also didn't know that Dean, uh..., "borrowed" his 100 year environmental plan from Clark. (sarcasm on) And it's not like Dean hasn't told his people to attack anyone, or nothin'. He would never do a thing like that. (sarcasm off)

I am certain there is a smear campaign going on because I keep seeing the same issues raised over and over again by the same people. It's called "hammering away on the ____ issue". If this is not the case then we certainly have some stupid people here at DU. Or maybe it's just as someone with a bit more class than I said about DU, "there are a lot of very juvenile people that hang out there."