My fear is that even after Kerry is elected, the current junta will

[Veggie Meathead]

control the levers of power in this country.They are used to running a parallel government as they did during the Clinton years.The machinery is already in place.It may be too late for our Democracy. What we will have is the 'illusion of representative government' as one DUer has aptly phrased it.

[DaveSZ]

1. They'll join Carlyle

Bush and John Howard will join Carlyle after they are defeated and still pull the levers of power.

[asjr]

5. I have the feeling that after Shrub loses, the Republicans will

dump him for good and start looking for another puppet. It isn't Shrub they support. They support whomever they can control. The only reason they still "support" him is because they know they can manipulate him, and after all, he is a good Christian man who can relate to the fundamentalists.

[Bowline]

2. You're assuming they'll allow a free, fair election.

There is certainly no guarantee that Kerry will be sworn in as our next President, regardless of the actual vote.

[Veggie Meathead]

3. You may be right.It only goes to show that our democracy is an

illusion and needs to be put on life support.

[Bowline]

8. It may be too late for life support.

It's in serious need of an overhaul, perhaps all the way back to the beginning. With the exception of civil rights legislation there really hasn't been a good, necessary law passed in the last 100 years, at least.

[KharmaTrain]

4. AEI, Heritage Institute, Cato Institute...

These are all shadow governments...not just during the Clinton years, but even in past Repugnican administrations. These "think tanks" will be cranking like never before if Bunnypants loses and will rebound quickly.

My concern is winning the battle and losing the war. This nation is so divided and whomever wins will have a massive job in attempting to cool things down to be able to get anything done. My hope is we can so soundly defeat Bunnypants it shuts up these hypocrites for a while, but they will be back with a vengence.

Right now do we REALLY know whose running this government? So maybe this entire process is moot.

[soothsayer]

7. We live in a National Security State, and the intelligence and military

communities run most things. HEck, they even keep it secret from Congress (and sometimes from the president!) some of the time, using godnoze what for funding.

[KharmaTrain]

12. That Doesn't Count The Corporates & Multinationals...

I have a book called "The People's Almanac" by Irving Wallace & David Walleshinki that had a section on the nations of the world. Included were countries such as IBM, Coke, GM and others...corporations who have assets that would rank them among the richest nations.

Under this section the government structure was broken down into "who rules"...the nominal heads of state, like Bunnypants...and then "who REALLY rules"...which would go into the various special interests that dominate the world economy and politics. For example, for Saudi Arabia, it will list the King as the "who rules", but Aramco as "who really rules". Unfortunately this book was written in 1975...it'd be great to see this updated...putting a little light on the real ways of the world.

[Bowline]

9. "Do we really know who is running this government?"

No, but you can be damn sure it ain't Dubbya!

[Warpy]

6. The worst thing Truman ever did was

to sign the NSA into existence. It's now the shadow government, unelected and accountable to no one. The cold war is OVER, folks, and it's time to sign that sucker back out of existence, since its reason to exist is gone. It's an unconstitutional monstrosity.

[RivetJoint]

15. The National Security Agency

is now a shadown Government? You are gonna have to 'splain that one Lucy.

[amber dog democrat]

10. Well look at the alternative

We are better off with Kerry. I don't doubt that many Republicans won't act any better than they did during the Clinton Admin. Still even many true conservatives deplore what the Bush Adminsitration has been doing. It will have to be better. I am banking on that.

[Veggie Meathead]

11. It may be well to remember that the lie that launched the Vietnam

War, the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was manufactured by a Democrat,Lyndon Johnson.It may also be worth remembering that all but one senator voted for the IWR another manufactured pretext.

That said, it is infinitely preferable to have John Kerry in the WH.He will, however, will be subject to the same constraints that Clinton had to work under.The real power in this country long ago ceased to be in the hands of the people.We are all controlled by the Money Party of which the Democrats and the Republicans are the two wings ( with apologies to Gore Vidal).

[amber dog democrat]

14. I remember that quote from Videl.

Isn't interesting about the Gulf of Tonkin ( sp? ) resolution?
We were sold a bill of goods. That whole thing was so wrong.
Just an annecdote - I had a maternal grandfather who said in November of 1960 that if he was Jack Kennedy, he would never get another night's sleep knowing he stood between LBJ and the White House.

I like H.L Menken's paraphrase of the Declaration of Independence, ( in American ).
where we throw out the current crooks and put in ones who won't steal so much.

[mopaul]

13. just because our guy wins, doesn't mean the fight is over.

until all assholes are out. tough job ahead

[Monte Carlo]

16. Hey, the Military-Industrial Complex will be there no matter who wins.

Kerry's not perfect, but he's not part of it. And never say die.

[kentuck]

17. Interesting. Something that has concerned me for years...

In fact, I wrote Bill Clinton on this very subject matter in early 1993...

[Veggie Meathead]

19. I am amazed that you saw clearly the struggle Clinton waged

against the VRWC as a permanent one that could outlast any single Presidency.Good for you!

[msmcghee]

18. If we don't get the Senate back . . .

. . it could be four years of absolutely nothing getting done - but a whole lot of yelling, screaming and name-calling.

I think Rove will try to to make people realize anyway that will happen if Bush* doesn't get re-elected.

By their past outrageous behavior that shows they don't give a damn about running the government - just winning and smearing Dems - like shutting down the government in Clinton's first term over the budget and then Clinton's impeachment - many rubes have already connected those dots.

Some will probably say - "If they want it that bad - let 'em have it. At least we'll have a government capable of responding to a terror threat."

So sad. But, Democracy never guarantees good decisions - just that we will be governed by the wisdom of the lowest common denominators among us.