My Mensa friend is STILL backing Bush.

[Cyrano]

Last winter, I started a thread on DU about a friend who is a Mensa and is a Bush backer. The resulting discussion focused on the nature of so-called "intelligence" vs common sense.

We've now reached the point where the 50% of voters sticking with Bush are either brain washed, brainless, brain dead, Torquemada wannabes, war profiteers, or well meaning, misguided people who really believe everything Limbaugh/Hannity/O'Reilly tell them.

Nonetheless, my Mensa friend still believes that Bush is better for this country than Kerry. No logic, facts, reasonable arguments, or even proof of Bush's (and his administration's) incompetence, motivations, and complete indifference to the well being of the American people can get through to him. Even watching Bush struggling with the difficult task of expressing a thought in the English language, is something that my friend considers as "a competent, but inarticulate man who knows how to lead."

Sigh.

[flamingyouth]

1. Wow - never thought I'd see "Mensa" and "Bush" together

in the same sentence.

[Triana]

59. Quite a few Mensans I know of are bu$h supporters...

...like most groups, it's about an even split. I hate to generalize because some of them are really nice folks (who can't stand bu$hit), others are sort of self-centered, full of themselves, smug, idiots.

Some of the self-centered ones like bu$h, and others don't. Pretty much a sampling of the general population, I think. I find nothing especially brilliant about any of them, they're just normal folks who happened to get lucky and pass a test one day. We've all passed tests before. Whoopie...I'm not so impressed.

They're just regular folks, and the same proportion of them lack the same common sense as in the general "non-Mensan" population.

[Cyrano]

69. "just normal folks who got lucky and happened to pass a test one day???

How then would you define "the best and the brightest?"

This is only my personal opinion, but really intelligent people have a responsibility. It may be to help a neighbor get an absentee ballot, educating a child, explaining to a stranger how to register to vote, or, writing a letter to the editor about the difference between democracy and fascism.

My friend does none of these things. He feels that people have a responsibility to take care of themselves. It's an Ayn Rand view of the world, which IMHO sucks. Ayn Rand lets the fortunate off the hook. "I'm brilliant and if you're not, die." Anyone with an ounce of compassion or empathy won't buy into that mean spirited philosophy.

Sorry, Triana. This isn't an attack on you. I'm really talking to smug, arrogant and otherwise intelligent people who can't identify with the frailty of the human condition. (And who may be too wealthy or successful to remember what it is to struggle to survive.)

[Must_B_Free]

83. People who are smart enough to get "conned"

that's all they are.

How much do they pay to be in Mensa?

[Triana]

101. How much do they pay to be in Mensa?

I dunno. I'm not in it. And, folks who pass "The Test" aren't all in it either. It's an option to join or not and there are dues, but I don't know what they are.

Passing "The Test" doesn't automagically enroll a person in Mensa.

[ProfessorGAC]

105. I Passed Their Test

I went to one meeting and declined the offer to join.

Lots of smart people, but not a whole lot of thinkers. Some really clever folks that really didn't know that much, as well. Not highly educated. Not very well read. Surprising.

The Professor

[Triana]

107. Uh-huh...

Quite a few people do that - pass the test but don't join. I think they need to revamp the whole Mensa thing. They have an image, as well as a "legitimacy" problem.

Don't get me wrong, some Mensans I know are bright, smart, well-read, talented, truely nice people and definitely not bu$h voters. Others (just as many) are smug, self-righteous, full o themselves idjits without an ounce of common sense, but instead some sense of 'entitlement' for some reason. Egh. I mean, it's just like the general US population and not much different.

(and their meetings are kinda boring, too...)

[ProfessorGAC]

109. Kinda Boring! LOL!

That's exactly why i said, "Thanks, but no thanks!" It was a drag. By comparison, going to a meeting of economists or a convention of chemists is a barrel of laughs. (I'm both so i know how much fun we can be! Yeah, right.)
The Professor

[Triana]

114. Biologists are a buncho fun folks too....

...was in a roomful the other day - friendly, intelligent and FUN!

[MARALE]

112. I passed too

I think to prove to myself that I could. I also think most people are intelligent in different ways, so I don't think passing this test is that big of a deal. Tests are over rated. My husband talks about an engineer that is a PE (professional engineer) like that is a high place and he is very intelligent. Any engineer can be a PE if they take the test (the only place I found it necessary is if you are testifying in court) and pass. I decided not to take the test because I did not see where I would need it. He is also a Bush backer but only because he is a big Fundie, he also won't listen to reason.

[JHB]

97. It's that "Screw everybody but me" attitude...

..."brilliance" is just an excuse for it.

[Triana]

102. ...and a bad excuse at that...

...but I just don't see how any of those folks are so all-fired brilliant, not from the ones I know.

[JHB]

106. They just scored high on an "IQ" test...

...which any researcher worth anything will tell you is an outdated (and inaccurate) means of measuring "intelligence".

Not to mention the self-centered snobs we're talking about here seem to have forgotten the whole point of having a "Mensa" in the first place.

From their website:

What is Mensa?

Mensa was founded in England in 1946 by Roland Berrill, a barrister, and Dr. Lance Ware, a scientist and lawyer. They had the idea of forming a society for bright people, the only qualification for membership of which was a high IQ. The original aims were, as they are today, to create a society that is non-political and free from all racial or religious distinctions. The society welcomes people from every walk of life whose IQ is in the top 2% of the population, with the objective of enjoying each other's company and participating in a wide range of social and cultural activities.


What are Mensa's goals?

Mensa has three stated purposes: to identify and foster human intelligence for the benefit of humanity, to encourage research in the nature, characteristics and uses of intelligence, and to promote stimulating intellectual and social opportunities for its members.


How many members does Mensa have?

Today there are some 100,000 Mensans in 100 countries throughout the world. There are active Mensa organizations in over 40 countries on every continent except Antarctica. Membership numbers are also available for specific National Groups.


What kind of people are Members of Mensa?

There is simply no one prevailing characteristic of Mensa members other than high IQ. There are Mensans for whom Mensa provides a sense of family, and others for whom it is a casual social activity. There have been many marriages made in Mensa, but for many people, it is simply a stimulating opportunity for the mind. Most Mensans have a good sense of humor, and they like to talk. And, usually, they have a lot to say.

Mensans range in age from 4 to 94, but most are between 20 and 60. In education they range from preschoolers to high school dropouts to people with multiple doctorates. There are Mensans on welfare and Mensans who are millionaires. As far as occupations, the range is staggering. Mensa has professors and truck drivers, scientists and firefighters, computer programmers and farmers, artists, military people, musicians, laborers, police officers, glassblowers--the diverse list goes on and on. There are famous Mensans and prize-winning Mensans, but there are many whose names you wouldn't know.
http://www.mensa.org/info.php

(adding my own view) "There are Mensans who are fine, pleasnt individuals, and Mensans who are just plain assholes."

[Triana]

108. this alone...

"to identify and foster human intelligence for the benefit of humanity"

...would keep them from being Republicans if Mensa truely was what it says it is, wouldn't it?

;)

[Triana]

100. Can't say I got any argument with what you say Cyrano..

...thing is, I'm not sure the tests these people pass really prove anything RE: brilliance. And if they DID and these people truely are as brilliant as they THINK they are, then I agree that they have a responsibility - but I don't think many of them are so brilliant.

If they were, they wouldn't be supporting the biggest terrorist of all, George. W. Bu$h. If they were so brilliant, I agree that they'd be trying to do some good in the world. Unfortunately, many of them are out to just fan their own egos - and that underscores (for me) that Mensa just ain't all that or it would consist of a different class of people.

From what I've seen, they're just a sampling of the general populace and little else.

[tom_paine]

2. Intelligenmce and consciousness are two very different things

One does not necessarily mean the other will follow.

[LittleApple81]

3. In Spanish, a menso (masculine) or mensa (feminine) is an idiot.Perhaps

that's is your friends problem.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

4. There are different kinds of intelligence

emotional intelligence, etc.

Your friend simply does not have the kind of intelligence and/or information necessary to see how harmful bush has been for this country and the world.

We all have our blind spots, even the very bright. Her blind spot must be huge.

[stanwyck]

5. This person is lost

let him go.

[calico1]

6. Well this might make you feel better

In Spanish the word "mensa" means "slow." Going by that, I would say a lot of the people I know who are voting for Bush are definitley "mensa" members.

[kiahzero]

7. Your friend just doesn't know jack shit about politics

Doesn't mean he's not smart, just that he doesn't apply that intelligence to this specific field.

[MrBenchley]

8. We used to call them "severely gifted"

Some of the Mensa members I've spent time with were among the stupidest pieces of shit I've ever encountered anywhere...

(And I have to confess I used to be an official of Greater NYC Mensa....)

Nor are they particularly ehtical or cultured. You might recall some years ago there was a flap because Los Angeles Mensa put out an entire issue of its newsletter devoted to eugenics (one repulsive correspondent called Hitler "more sinned against than sinner.")

[silverweb]

18. I agree completely.

Many, many moons ago, I was dating a Mensa member and even took the preliminary test myself. However, after spending a fair amount of time with his friends in Mensa, I decided my time was much better spent elsewhere.

As far as I could see, these "severely gifted" people (great description! :D ) did absolutely nothing with their gifts but sit around, play useless brainteaser games, compete at finding ways to beat the odds at gambling, and make fun of people who were less "gifted" than they were.

Needless to say, my involvement didn't last very long and I never bothered taking the proctored membership test.

:eyes:

[IA_Seth]

62. LOL

I agree. I was always in the "gifted" classes in school, and I NEVER really thought of myself as "one of them". I had the opportunity to skip 8-12 and take a year-long accelerated program but wasn't able to because my family was po'(so broke we couldn't even afford the freakin -or)...so I didn't go.

I was pissed as a kid, but after a few years of being around the "gifted" kids I decided I was better off. It seems like they aren't always the most rounded people.

Anywho, I don't think that Intelligence necessarily correlates with Wisdom!

[depakid]

31. I completely agree, too

I joined Mensa at one point, and didn't find most of the people I met to be particularly knowledgeable, creative or engaging. In fact, a few seemed downright ignorant, IMHO.

Most people don't realize that you can get into Mensa with modest LSAT or GRE scores- you don't have to sit down and take a supid Stanford/Binet. So if you think about it- if you've ever been to law school or grad school and had to listen to painfully stupid comments from some of your classmates, chances are that they qualify for Mensa!

[BiggJawn]

37. Didn't they call them "Idiot Savants"?

I know a guy like that. Good with computers, absolutely useless in a social situation. funny thing is, he's got a cute curvey wife. The mental picture of him "Gettin' Jiggy" is almost enough to make me wanna Bobbitt myself...Hell, she probably dresses up like Galadriel and he dresses like Frodo with hairy slippers and all....:puke:

[Bogus W Potus]

74. Amen

I can't stand people who brag about belonging to an organization like Mensa.

[PsN2Wind]

9. Tell him you read

they are going to draft mensa's to help fight the war on terror.

[Wind Dancer]

10. I will never understand how anybody

could support *. I have never been able to tolerate anybody who was arrogant, hateful and hypocritical. We live in a world today that has been slowly brainwashed by the media and religious nuts. I have lost friends who were hippies back in the day but now have no compassion for the poor and disabled, it simply shocks me. They have successful careers, have not been hurt financially and don't seem to give a rat's ass about the causes which were so important to them in the past. How could these once passionate people ignore what has happened to our environment?

It is a sad and scary day in this country.

[Cyrano]

15. Yeah, I hear you. I for one was stoned for most of the 70's

My friend was more conservative, backed Nixon, and even at the end, refused to fully condemn the crimes of that despicable swine.

We fought over that for years, but the fact that he's still a Bush backer is totally behind my comprehension. I've thought of suggesting to him that he get a brain scan to see if there's some kind of problem, but you've got to give a lot of latitude to a friend.

Double sigh.

[IA_Seth]

63. You've found the key!

Maybe that's it...get your friend to smoke a little..it does wonders for free thinking!

Until you forget where you put your keys!

[lanparty]

96. Nixon had some redeeming qualities ...

He signed some of the strongest environmental legislation this country has ever seen. Next to Bush, Nixon is a saint.

[Selwynn]

11. Some people are smart and evil.

[Carolina]

41. Dr. Mengele

case in point

[sendero]

12. Like a friend once said about Mensa...

... "I was thinking of joining but then I found out that the whole reason they exist is to flaut their intelligence, they don't do anything else".

It takes a certain kind of mind to do well on the types of tests that are used to measure "intelligence". Being able to recognize patterns and logical sequences figures heavily. But trust me, lots of these folks are basically idiot savants. They can rattle facts and do calculations, but wouldn't know what to say to a pretty woman to save their life.

That kind of intelligence I don't need :)

[juajen]

26. OK, ya'll are generalizing

My hubbie is a member of MENSA, and believe me, he sure knows what to do with a pretty girl. Additionally, he knows just about how to do everything else. He's a marvelous, brilliant man. We call him the "encyclopedia". Sure saves time looking things up! We've been married for about 40 years now. I love my MENSA man and highly recommend marrying men of intelligence. Makes for smart children, too.

[Cyrano]

29. I'm not knockin Mensa. I'm just knocking my friend's blindness.

[GiovanniC]

65. I'm a "Member" of MENSA

But I don't attend the meetings... or as I like to refer to them: "NERD CON 2004".

I know what to do with pretty girls, too, by the way.

[LunaC]

13. Give this to your friend

Then see what he/she has to say:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2137401

If he/she still doesn't come to their senses then it's truly a hopeless case.

[Cyrano]

22. Have already given him everything on PNAC available.

Didn't make a dent. He's not a (conscious) empire builder, but he always seems to find obscure justifications for the PNAC agenda, while not openly endorsing it.

I personally find the PNAC agenda a thinly disguised piece of fascist garbage.

[LunaC]

23. This piece points to 911 LIHOP/MIHOP

Still might be worth one more try, but you know best.

[Hamlette]

14. I met a Mensa guy in a class I was taking

he joined us on the 4th day of a 5 day class. The teacher knew him, I'd heard of him. This Mensa jerk starts in immediately, know it all, insulting, Bush is the best, blah blah. Of course, I was the one to take him on. Finally, noting his Southern accent, I said: "Shit, you're so out of touch with reality you probably think the civil war was fought over states' rights." He proceeded to spin that old yarn that "yes, it was". (Yeah, a state's right to keep slaves. Really dumb argument that purposefully misses the point to make the South seem noble somehow. Hogwash.) I laughed at him said something like "I knew it, you're beyond hope" and went outside for a cigarette break. The teacher was out there listening in. I scolded him for leaving me alone with this lunitic. He said: "leave you alone? I set you up. I've always wanted to see someone get the best of that bastard and I was certain you'd be the one to do it. You got him good."

A prick is a prick and most Mensas are pricks. (Note to all you Mensas out there, note I said "most", not all.) There are so in love with their own intelligence they can't see how wrong they are.

[Kierkegaard]

16. Knows how to lead

but doesn't know how to read. Mensa made a terrible mistake.

[freetobegay]

17. Just another example of why Mensa is overrated.

[Northwind]

19. I was invited to a Mensa meeting once

Dullest, most insipid bunch of blowhards I ever met.

In my experience, most Mensoids are inclined to the retarded college sophmore ideals of Ayn Rand. They believe their IQ score makes them superior and entitled, and they tend to be mighty irritated that no one else agrees.

[spanone]

20. I've met some seriously wierd mensa members.

They're not beyond being stupid fucking republicans.

[Cha]

21. I'm guessing your friend could give

a fuck about the environment, People who are not millionares, if we have a facist government or not, lying to take our Country to war and resulting in thousands of innocent lives lost.

[Cyrano]

25. He thinks it's all being done for a "just" cause.

If I didn't know how (so-called) intelligent he is, I'd think he was a blathering idiot.

You don't walk away from a friend because you disagree politically, but somehow, I can't shake the image that we're both standing in a shower that is really a gas chamber and me saying to him, "See? I told you so." Won't that make me feel just dandy?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

93. Excellent post, Cyrano. This image is both hilariously funny and

frightening/sad all at the same time...

[baldguy]

24. Some of the biggest idiots I've ever met were "smart".

[mopaul]

27. me in mensa club....me reeeeeeel smart

see, up there on the wall, my mensa certificate! see, i know a lot of things, including politics, and believe me, i vote bush because he's smart like me and i'm in MENSA FOR CHRIST'S SAKE.

fuck a bunch o mensa

[juajen]

30. Now now, that wasn't nice

My husband does not attend meetings and hasn't been to one since he first became a member over 35 years ago. He never tells anyone he is a member, and certainly is not a know-it-all, even though he does pretty much know a hell of a lot about everything and how to do it. If I was trapped on a desert island, he's the guy I would want with me to help me survive. His smarts are damned impressive, and he NEVER lords it over anybody. He's a liberal historian and a woodworker, and a good man. Now, will ya'll knock it off?

[mopaul]

33. he sounds like a swell guy i'd like to meet

meant no personal offense to him of course, he deserves none. i know both types, he's my kind of guy, but i hate blowhards and knowitall loudmouths.

[Cyrano]

60. mopaul

Have been watching your posting and animations for the past nine to ten months.

I'm a fan and IMHO you're well on your way to a Pulitzer Prize, (if they ever present it for online art.)

juajen: mopaul wasn't being disrespectful. It was humor. Let's cut each other some slack here.

After all, there's just one thing we can agree is a "laser-like" focal point. BEATING BUSH.

[H2O Man]

103. now mopaul:

you can join my club, Densa. You ain't even gotta pass an IQ test to get in.

[mopaul]

115. wa wa, sa sa, fa fa, fellow densa member

now the secret handshake and sacrificial goat.

[H2O Man]

119. "goat"?

I thought it was "toga"! DYSLEXICS, UNTIE!!!!

[SharonAnn]

76. Well, I'm a Mensa member and I hope my husband would say

such nice things about me. He does joke that after he married me he sold the encyclopedias.

He and I are both very capable and have great social lives (together, in groups, and with our separate friends). We like to think we're well-rounded and most people think we are.

Are we normal? Well, yes and no. We are better at some things than others (and I'm definitely better at tests than most people are) but we have our weak points.

But the best thing we have going for us is that we can laugh at ourselves. Mensans make the absolutely best, most intricate, most complicated mistakes. And some of them are downright hysterical. You see, we don't always see the simple answer.

P. S. Please give your husband a hug from me (another Mensa meember).

[Kanary]

94. SharonAnn, just the person I wanted to see! Gotta question......

Do you "know what to do with pretty girls"?

Just thought I'd ask........

:hi:

Kanary

[SharonAnn]

110. I don't understand your question.

[Swamp Rat]

28. Tell him to turn in his Mensa membership card...

and get a frontal lobotomy. If he asks why, tell him it's the most altruistic thing he can do with his life.

[gulliver]

32. My Bullsh*t detector is going off here.

Are you sure your "friend" is in Mensa? If he/she were really in Mensa, why would you say he/she is "a Mensa" instead of a "Mensan" (which is what Mensa members call themselves).

Also, where are you getting that 50% of voters are "sticking with Bush?" Bush is in the low to mid 40s.

Sorry, but this thread kind of smells. I doubt that many Mensans support Bush. And many fewer would be indifferent to logic. I'm a Mensan, and I damned sure don't support Bush.

Maybe you are making this up?

[Cyrano]

35. Dear Gulliver

No bullshit going on here. As a non-"Mensan," I have no idea the this is what they/he are called, nor has my friend, (who has been a member since 1971), ever mentioned that to me.

Nor did I ever make the accusation that all members of Mensa are Bush backers. I'm talking about a friend of mine and my efforts to get him back to planet Earth.

As far as the 50% of voters who are "sticking with Bush," I'm just quoting the ongoing media rants. Hopefully, we will see a Kerry landslide, but hope in one hand, pee in the other, and see which one fills up first.

What I'm really looking for is a way to get through to an otherwise brilliant friend. So put your bullshit detector away. Jeeez, I wish I could pull up last winter's DU discussion about him, but I can't.

Once again, sigh.

[gulliver]

43. Dear Cyrano

Sorry, but the bullshit detector is still in the red.

If your thread made a point that was not damaging/dismaying to progressives, I would cut you more slack. If your thread did not seek to divide people along the lines of common sense and intelligence, I would cut you more slack. But your thread is both damaging and divisive. Its standard of proof is higher.

Your thread is damaging because its premise is that there is someone with a very high IQ who thinks Bush is better for the country than Kerry. What is your point? To exasperate people? Then you throw in that 50% of people are "sticking with Bush." And now you say you are "just quoting the ongoing media rants."

Next, your thread is divisive in that it invites progressives to demean people in Mensa for lacking common sense and to be angry with people who are in Mensa. Dividing people on that basis is exactly the thing Republicans did with Gore and are trying to do with Kerry. People who think a lot are suspicious and kooky. People who brag about not thinking a lot are the kind of people you want to have a beer with.

So your thread is either bullshit or truthful and negative for progressive causes.

I have no way of telling which. You could help by offering some form of evidence, perhaps quoting some exact quotes from your friend. Otherwise, your thread sounds for all the world like a "Help me argue with my Republican friend" troll post.

Sigh.

[Cyrano]

47. Dear Gulliver

Believe what you wish. I am not about to post my friend's name or credentials. Nor did I set out to be divisive. Those on this thread who have taken the opportunity to bash Mensa's (excuse me, Mensan's,) are not my responsibility. I, myself have not done so.

And my issue of someone with a very high IQ who backs Bush is exactly that. No more, no less.

I started this thread in total frustration about a friend that I can't make see reality. If you have a problem with that, I'm sorry, but I can't handle you and my friend at the same time.

And as far as your bullshit detector is concerned, sorry, but I can't help you there. Nor am I about to spend anymore time trying to convince you of my sincerity.

[gulliver]

51. Right

That's about what I thought you would say. I certainly didn't expect you to spend any time trying to convince me of your sincerity. And you haven't.

Who asked you to post your friends name or credentials? I just asked you to explain why you said that "50% of people are sticking with Bush" and to give some form of detail about your conversation with your friend that might make me think you actually had such a conversation.

This thread reeks. Sorry if it is merely misguided and not deceptive.

[Cyrano]

53. Dear Gulliver

Sorry, I'm not a "Mensan" and I've alread told you that the 50% came from media polls. Not that I believe them, nor is that the issue here.

And what I've been discussing here is not a "conversation with a friend." I'm talking about 30 years of political disagreements.

But, I'll tell you what. Send me a private message, (my profile is public) and I'll see if I can drag my friend along to meet you, (as long as it's not Alaska) and we'll pick up the conversation there.

Or, conversely, give me some private information about yourself and I'll invite you to Florida where I live. Either way, knock off the "this thread reeks shit."

Put up, or shut up.

[IA_Seth]

67. Divisive

Who the hell is being divisive hear buddy....

YOU.

I don't think most people have a problem with the odor of this thread, so just chill the hell out would ya?

He isn't backing Bush, nor has any of the posts I have read yet. I DO remember his post from late last year and I don't think he is off base saying that the reports say 50% support Bush.

That is our problem we need to address. How do we get more of our 50% to vote than Bush can get of his 50%. I really think that is what this election comes down to.

Sheesh.

[Cyrano]

84. Seth, thanks for your comments.

It's hard these days to find someone who will "cover your back." Yeah, it's an "old west" cliche, but cliche's have a habit of bearing truth. Again, thanks.

[sendero]

66. I do not believe...

... there is any correllation between "Intelligence" as measured by timed logic and pattern-recognition tests, and "wisdom". None at all.

So I have no problem at all believing that a "super intelligent" person can be basically "stupid". Working in the computer science field, I've met a load of them. People who could code the most difficult algoritms but could never understand the basics of social interaction or hygiene.

There is nothing surprising here.

[Green Lantern]

86. Well said

i know the repugs are anti-intellectual, but I thought there was more room for intellectual capacity here.

This thread has been a bit of an eye opener.

[quaker bill]

36. I have met some quite insane Mensa members

High IQ does not necessarily imply rationality.

[gulliver]

46. Sure you have.

Geez, I'm in the group (essentially a puzzle solvers and yakkers society) and I've never met or read anything by any of them I would feel like calling insane. You must meet a heck of a lot of them in order to have met "some" insane ones. Either that or you judge people insane "kinda quick like."

Can you give an example of what one of them said to make you judge them insane?

Being in Mensa is like being in a chess club. You're probably proud of it, but you don't go around telling everyone about it. How would you have met "some" confirmed Mensans (much less more than one insane one) unless, by chance, you are one yourself?

I just don't see why we need to demean people for being in a high IQ society. It is an achievement of sorts. Why spit on it? Wouldn't you be proud if your kid were in Mensa? I would.

Demeaning intelligence plays into Republican hands.

[TexasBushwhacker]

34. Your friend is in another organization too

It's called DENSA!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

38. Is your friend wealthy?

I'm curious...

[Cyrano]

44. No.

He's a member of the quickly vanishing middle class. If he were wealthy, I'd be able to understand (to some degree) his blind spot. But his disregard, or inability to grasp the damage that has been done by BushCo, is totally beyond me.

He is an otherwise thoughtful, brilliant human being, but I can't find any way to make him see the suffering, injustices and venal acts that have been committed by this administration.

[Carolina]

39. there's a thin line between

genius and insanity. Your friend has crossed over. He's certifiably crazy, willfully unread, rich and selfish, or not really MENSA.

:spank:

[sandnsea]

40. world domination, it's a "good thing"

Some people believe that. Not much you can do about it.

[CaTeacher]

42. It's really not a clearcut case of smart

versus stupid--I think it is more aptly described as SELFISH versus COMPASSIONATE.

Those of us who are more enlightened just get so upset with adults who are as selfish as 2 years olds--that we often call them stupid (and they seem quite stupid), but in fact most of these people are very competent--in at least one thing--they look out for their own interests--to the exclusion of everything and everyone else.

[SammyWinstonJack]

45. Why on Earth?

Makes no sense! How could an articulate/intelligent person ever back *? And when has * demonstrated leadership?

[Steven_S]

52. If any person would believe...

that "Full Spectrum Domination" is a good idea, (PNAC) or that the "end justifies the means" then regarless of their IQ numbers they might also think that the regime in power should remain in power.

[VoteDemocratic2004]

48. Your Mensa friend needs to figure out the Bush puzzle

Apparently his logic skills are off.

I am a member of Mensa and I have trouble putting words together because of an accident that I was in but it didn't throw my logic skills off.

[Skittles]

49. LET ME KICK HIS ASS CYRANO

I'D BE HAPPY TO DO IT.

[mountainvue]

50. I had a Geometry teacher once

who was brilliant, graduated from MIT. He would spend long hours in front of the class writing elaborate problems, kind of like the guy in A Brilliant Mind. However, when it came time for him to actually explain the problems to us, he couldn't do it. I suspect it is the same with your friend.

[opihimoimoi]

54. Brains don mean shit...its the tests and exams he passed..Its how one

uses them nuerons...

For brains to work propery....and in this context of social systems, Matematics should be in PLAY.

Meaning your Mensa friend is supposed to figure this out in .08 nano seconds. Common sense and Logic tells us Odds and ratios should be in Play/
Meaning we should be devising systems with the best odds of success. What systems? The systems best for us in the Long Term so that we might be able to live comfortably. safely, and with more wealth.

That we see no evidence of care/consideration toward our well being in the long term....for all of us....Bush is an utter failure.

Having understood this, For anyone to continue backing Bush is either delusional or a Mensa cheat....or both...

Come, we go make strong Kona Coffee....

[Cyrano]

61. This is way, way off the subject,, but Jeeeeeeeez, I love Kona coffe.

[lanparty]

99. Adam Smith smart or John Nash smart ...

Some people still have the idea of social darwinism and the truly "smart" will ALWAYS do whatever enriches them the most at the expense of others. These people bow dutifully to Adam Smith's invisible hand.

Those who compulsively do what is in the best interest of the community know that it will eventually benefit them. They are capable of gaining gratification through empathizing with the positive benefit of others. These people follow the John Nash model, that which benefits the community most is most beneficial.


Well, there is a word for the Adam Smith kinda "smart". It's called cunning and it's the ability to apply intelligence to your own exclusive personal benefit.

[opihimoimoi]

116. Once more Ian comes with words of wisdom.....You got it right

John Nash Benevolence

Adam Smith Profits

[lanparty]

55. The desire to belong to a group that is "smarter than everybody else" ...

... signals an internal sense of privelege. As such, I think these people would uniquely identify themselves with the Bush crowd since it's governance FOR the priveleged BY the priveleged. I dare say that these folks are probably Straussian to the core and thought that "A Brave New World" was a tremendous blue-print for the future.

The fact is that their are multiple types of intelligences. The ability to solve abstract mathematical puzzles doesn't make you smarter than anyone else. Chances are you could drop most of them in the wilderness and they wouldn't survive 2 days.

[gulliver]

58. I have to take issue with that.

Everyone wants to have something to be proud of, and IQ is no different.

The desire to be in a group that golfs better than everyone else is exactly the same thing. The desire to be the best auto racer, the desire to be the best football player, ..., same thing.

Anti-elitism is a tool to separate progressives. Progressives with money are "limousine liberals." Progressives who are intelligent or are university professors are "sandal-wearing elites."

Don't fall into that Republican clap-trap. Everyone wants their kids to be smart, to be friends with the best people, to be talented and gifted. In Lake Wobegon, all the kids are above average.

[lanparty]

95. There is a difference between membership and competition ...

... everybody once to be good at something. But there is a purpose to making the little league all-star team. The purpose is to compete on behalf of your league.

There is a HUGE difference between societies based on achievment and participation vs societies based on "inherent nobility". These are "blue blooded" societies based on what you ARE as opposed to what you DO. In this case, that nobility is the capability to do abstract mathematical problems.

I have nothing against intellectualism. But Mensa doesn't represent intellectualism.

I'm not saying that everyone in Mensa is bad. I'm saying that people of the Straussian persuasion will be drawn to it in an effort to "prove their superiority".

[susu369]

56. Simple question

why would anyone vote for a man, who picks his nose in public, for the most important job in the world?



:shrug:

[gulliver]

57. So in conclusion...

... just because you think "Bush is better for the country than Kerry" and "knows how to lead," it doesn't mean you are necessarily an imbecile -- despite appearances. Cyrano assures us that there is at least one "Mensa" who will back you up.

Cyrano, who I think is no slouch at making arguments, was unable to convince his "brilliant" friend that Kerry is better than Bush. His brilliant friend didn't feel the need to listen to "logic, facts, reasonable arguments ore even proof of Bush's incompetence, motivations, ...". So if you don't listen to those things either, it still doesn't prove you are a total dumbass, despite appearances.

Did I get that right?

[soothsayer]

64. My grandma said "half those people are drooling on themselves"

and that's why she wouldn't let my mom join...!

[devilgrrl]

68. I guess some Mensa members like their pResidents the same way...

they like their women... Dumb as a pile of hair!

Sorry sane Mensa members but your organization has a lot of BAD APPLES!

[mitchum]

70. Your friend is a pretentious dork...

I was asked to join MENSA and my reply was, "Pay money to join a 'smart people's club'? Now, just how smart would that be?"

Drop your friend. It will give him more spare time to masturbate over "The Fountainhead"

[JNelson6563]

71. MENSA legacy?

just askin'

[Kathy in Cambridge]

72. Being able to take a test and native intelligence are often mutually

exclusive.

It's like the engineer/intellectual that lacks common sense.

[Bogus W Potus]

73. So?

I mean honestly, this just doesn't speak well for Mensa members. So what if they have high IQs? I am not convinced that the intelligence quotient is a valid measure of intelligence and if your friend is backing Bush then he is an idiot in my opinion. :hi: People who support Kerry are smarter, obviously.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

77. IQ is BS

it's what you do with it! :D

[durutti]

117. Not only that...

IQ rests on the assumption that intelligence can be reduced to a single trait, "general intelligence". It can't. What we call intelligence in our society isn't what passes for intelligence in all societies; and even what we can intelligence actually comprises a number of different traits.

[jbm]

75. mensa doesn't mean you're smart really...

I have always tested very well just cause I'm lucky and society designed their tests to fit my skills. (Thank you for that, btw) When I took chemistry they may as well have been speaking a foreign language, and the only reason I passed college algebra was cause I had good attendance. However, if you draw me a picture of a flat piece of paper and add some dashes to represent the folds, I can tell you what shape it will be if you fold it. I also know what number comes next in a sequence. If you give me four possible answers, I can figure out some method to determine the answer, BUT I can't find the answer if I don't have the four choices to start with. I cannot for the life of me remember when to use 'then' as opposed to 'than', I lose my car in parking lots even though this is a very small town, and I have not the slightest clue which way is east and which way is west.


My ego got brusied one day so I took the mensa test to give myself a boost. I passed it easily, but couldn't for the life of me figure out how to scrounge up the money they wanted for dues.

I'm not even sure that we can define intelligence, let alone measure it. Scoring high on the mensa test might be an indicator of intelligence, but it's no gaurantee. Don't put to much emphasis on the fact that your friend is in mensa. I'm sure there are some brilliant people in Mensa. I'm equally sure there are people who couldn't find their car in a very small parking lot. :)

[Green Lantern]

89. As I recall

IQ tests were originally only utilized as a predictor for potential success in school, based on the left brain skills of logic and sequence. It tends to leave out creativity or right brain processing and most certainly ignores whole brain synchrony, or the integration of all mental processes.

We can't measure intelligence effectively. We can "see" intelligent behavior, but can't really describe what makes it intelligent. Measuring a person's worth on the basis of a single test is of questionable value anyway.

Many bright children are isolated by attitudes that see them as freaks. Is this their fault? Should one be punished for inherently having the ability to do well on tests, or provide exceptional leadership or athletic ability? We don't denigrate the exceptional athlete, why should we do so with our folks with unusual intellectual capacity?

For what it is worth, Mensa recognizes the top 2% as measured in test results.
There are "groups" for the top 1%; one person in 1000 (the 999 society)' one in 2500; the Omega group with IQ'S over 172. Does this mean these people are any better or worse than the rest of us? I doubt it. They are still people. They still have to pay their bills, clean the gutters, mow the lawn and haul the trash.

The original question in this thread addressed, I thought, a problem in presenting a bright friend with arguments that would sway their view to a more "logical" one. I would suspect that the problem is not in the argument, as I see Cyrano presents good positons. The problem may be that the friend is dealing from an emotional perspective, not an intellectual one. Makes a difference, and is often not subject to intellectual suasion. Listen to his queing-if he uses "think" versus "feel" language, then intellectual approaches will probably be more successful. If "feel" predominates, then an emotional appeal may well be stronger. In any event, it is worth the attempt to sway and convert here. Good luck.

[Stuckinthebush]

78. There you have it....

A perfect example of the construct "IQ" not really meaning anything.

[Redleg]

79. Your Mensa friend is smart about some things and dumb as sin about others

Sheesh.

[kcwayne]

80. Bobby Fischer is a brilliant chess player, yet is a complete ignoramous

on all other subjects.

I have known several people who are extremely intelligent in Engineering and Science, yet buy into Rush Limbaugh. It is a quirk of the brain that someone can use logic extremely well to solve physics or math problems, but are incapable of using logic on abstract ideas that pertain to human activity.

[cosmicvortex20]

81. Intelligence and politics arnt related...

I know everyone likes to think the other side is stupid, but in reality philosophy and IQ isnt corrolated at all.

[Gregorian]

82. Being rich doesn't mean you're successful

Having a high IQ doesn't mean you're smart.

[Enraged_Ape]

85. I am a former member of Mensa...

and I can vouch for the fact that many of the members do not have the common sense God gave a turnip. My wife and I stopped going to MENSA meetings strictly because we were slackjawed and, frankly, depressed at the gullibility at some of the other people that went to them. I could not believe the shit these people espoused, without applying even one iota of critical thinking to any of it.

There is a good reason why E. Gary Gygax, when he designed the original "Dungeons and Dragons" game, made a strong delineation between the domains of INTELLIGENCE and WISDOM in creating characters for his role-playing game. He understood very well that they are two very different qualities of that which we might call "mind" or "thinking".

Intelligence, I believe, implies that one is able to score very highly on tests that measure some dimension of the quality that dictates that you can score very highly on intelligence tests. (I know that's confusing, but that's just about what it amounts to.)

Wisdom, on the other hand, implies that you have some ability to function successfully in this world--that you will not be ripped off by the first smiling charlatan that walks around the corner, and that you will be able to figure out what is best for you and for those that you rely on in this world. Wisdom is a quality that I'm afraid even the most intelligent person in this world may not possess, though that person may be (and probably is) a member of MENSA.

[Zen Democrat]

87. Yeah, he knows how to lead .. right into a quagmire of death and debt.

[eridani]

88. Smart people can be sociopaths, too. n/t

[Guy Fawkes]

90. This may surprise you, but as part of mensa...

you recieve a newsletter from one member about things like "the jewish problem." Mensa isn't a very liberal organization.

[enki23]

91. the fact that your friend wants to be part of mensa says it all

he's got serious insecurity issues.

[oasis]

92. Your thread title has brought about the onset of the Mensans.

:spank:

[8-6-PDB]

104. OMG, oasis!!!

*winces in pain*

[Domitan]

98. Cognitive genius does not automatically equal...

social intelligence or good executive functioning.

[amazona]

111. well mensa is a fake anyway

Years ago my mom signed me and my sister up for testing, and she took the test as well, and they said all 3 of us had IQs in the 170s! So I'd be a little skeptical of how well they are measuring intelligence. I can tell from talking to my friends and family that the "sharper" knives in the silverware drawer are not voting for Bush.

[Joe Chi Minh]

113. MENSA

Belonging to Mensa is not the mark of a well-rounded intelligence, still less of intellectual or any other kind of probity. Rather it is the mark of a kind of simian trickiness. I dare say Dr Mengele would have passed with flying colours. Intelligence has to base itself on commonsense, and that is the realm of the heart.

Of course, it is highly unlikely that Mensa would not include highly intelligent people, who *do* base their thinking on commonsense. God bless them for their endeavours for the common weal.

Hey! I've just noticed your reference to Mengele, Carolina! what was that about great minds.... and fools...?!?

[durutti]

118. MENSA is an evil organization.

In their fall 1994 newsletter, the LA chapter called for the mandatory sterilization of people with low IQs. MENSA has historically supported eugenics.

Much has been written about the group's first President, Sir Cyril Burt. Burt was a staunch proponent of the idea that IQ was almost entirely innate, and that the state should essentially work to establish a high-IQ aristocracy. He also of course believed in black inferiority.

Burt published a famous twin study purporting to "prove" that the heritability of IQ was essentially 100 percent heritable. Shortly after Burt's death, however, it was found that the data he published couldn't possibly be accurate. In other words, Burt committed a massive fraud.

He would also do things like write positive reviews of his books (and negative reviews of those of his opponents) under the names of other people.

Some President.