When Did We Get So Many Selfish Blue Collar Workers?

[louis c]

As the President and BA for my IBEW local, I serve with many other Labor Leaders in my area (Boston).

Every Union has endorsed Kerry and promotes the economic causes that make this country worth living and working in. Livable wage, health care, work place safety, job security, respect on the job, and the cause of helping one another in time of need.

Here's the rub. It seems so many, not a majority mind you, but a sizable group, speak and vote against their own best interest. Let me relate a couple of stories.

At a Labor council meeting with various locals, we began discussing the Presidential race. A Teamster leader (Local 25) relates this story. He has a friend who needed a job 5 years ago. He wasn't working, so the Teamster leader helps land him a job with a Union trucking firm. His friend now makes $70,000 a year with full benefits. The Teamster leader says "Ya, my pal is doing so well now, he thinks he's a Republican".

I have some (not many, but the number should be zero) members that like making 50K-60K a year as unskilled labor, with benefits, but think it's alright that other folks work for $8.50 an hour, with little or no benefits. I tell them that if they are for Bush, to be consistent, they should work under those same conditions, and give up their Union job. Of course I say it half-kidding.

Others support Bush's war in Iraq. Their sons and daughters don't serve. I tell them just what Harkin told Cheney, your a tough guy with other people's kids.

My point is that these folks are the ones keeping this election close. It is widely known that that the Bush Administration is committed to destroying Unions. My analogy to my members is this, "A Union worker who supports Bush this year is the same as a Jew who supported Hitler in 1931". Don't take what you have for granted, there are evil people who will do all in their power to take it away.

Hopefully, we'll get through. If we do, it will be a landslide. If we don't, it could be a disaster.

[ablbodyed]

1. Similar story>>>>

I work in the post office. There is a guy making $65K a year and he has a picture of smirky and the stepford twat on his case. He has NO CLUE. These people are so wrapped up in their social hatreds that they vote against their own self-interest. They are far tooooo STUPID to change.

[silverlib]

2. I'm surprised to see this in the North

I see it in the South quite a bit. My husband is Union in a right-to-work state (Texas) and it's appalling to have Union workers going to polls and supporting this administration. These supporters are, for the most part, very unlikely to work more than six months out of the year at this point. They vote for the Christian racist whose anti-choice, racist, and pro-guns. Social services should be outlawed, unless they need them.

[louis c]

9. It is not wide spread

at all. We have maybe 25% who think that way. But to me, I will not be happy until it is 0%.

You're right. I extrapolate that if it is 25% up here, it must be close to 50% in other areas of the country.

[mediaman007]

3. Its the media

Rush has been selling racism and greed for almost 20 years.

I can't believe that people can't see that without unions there would be a huge drop in the middle class. Even more I can't see how these people believe that they can achieve on their own.

Unions have not only taken care of their members, the unions have forced non-union employers to pay a higher wage. Four more years of the Bush* will really put the crunch on unions.

Its ironic that two years ago Bush* made a major speech about Cuba. Among other factors, he said that Cuba would be considered a democracy when it allowed unions.

[Veggie Meathead]

4. Now that they are comfortably set in their jobs and benefits, they

want to be able to look down on those still struggling to raise themselves up.This is like the Americans who came here on boats one generation ago looking down on the newcomers.

[sendero]

8. Human nature...

... is pretty shabby at times. Many/most of these folks who have "made it" think it was their own hard work and nothing else that afforded them their success. Of course, that is rarely, if ever, the case.

Just like rich Reps who rail against paying taxes. They are convinced that "everyone" could be rich if they only worked as hard as they do. Yet most of them would not survive the life of a day laborer for one week.

[lukasahero]

18. Partly that and

partly that they think they're "making it" if they're making 60k. I don't think they have any clue of what "making it" Repuglican style means. Hell, I'm in MA and 60k ain't what it used to be - certainly not if you've got a family to support.

But I think some of these folks think 60k is "rich". I have an ex who thought that once I started making 60k, he could quit his job because we'd be "rich". He became my "ex" long before 60k+ ever became my salary ;) - he's also blue collar/union.

[NewJeffCT]

5. most people are naturally greedy

However, until Reagan, the American mentality of 'all men are created equal' and promoting the general welfare made us look beyond our natural greed & selfishness because we knew helping the poor & downtrodden was what was good & what was right, even if those poor were only slightly poorer than ourselves.

However, Reagan made it okay to disrespect the poor. People were now homeless by choice, or were welfare queens driving cadillacs. No longer was our society judged on how we treated our poor, but now it was a race to accumulate the biggest house & best possessions, and if you didn't have them, it was your own damn fault.

[GOPFighter]

6. As a former UAW member...

...I find it significant that the average blue collar wage has dropped dramatically and American workers are working longer and longer hours. I now work for the federal government which pays decent wages and provides decent benefits. Is it any wonder the GOP is trying everything it can to contract out our workforce. The GOP won't stop until 90% of us are working for minimum wage, and then they'll abolish that!

[onebigbadwulf]

7. When their unions lost power...

when they lost job security...

and when they started having to pay for "benefits".

[louis c]

11. Unions are only

as powerful as their members' solidarity.

[onebigbadwulf]

16. Not really.

It has to do with the political policies at hand as well as the community involved.

When outsourcing is not only a legal alternative but cheaper for a company - the unions lose all power. Did you hear about the Supermarket strikes in California? People who weren't even on strike got locked out and their jobs replaced by people willing to work for less. It's really sad.

[louis c]

20. We lost the debate

on outsourcing when our membership strayed from the recommendations we made on elected officials.

Our strength is in supporting candidates that support our causes. When our membership divides on wedge issues, or believes there is no difference between the political parties, that's when we lose. Remember, every dispute between labor and management that is not resolved ends up being decided by the Dept. of Labor.

If that Dept. is controlled by Repukes, where do you think we get? Many of our members don't want to be associated with "Liberals", yet every pro-labor position ends up in the "Liberal" score card, thereby convincing workers who don't get informed to work against themselves.

The leadership can only point the way, we can't do it all by ourselves. As the old adage goes "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

[UdoKier]

38. But even solidarity only goes so far...

... when the government pulls the rug out from under them by encouraging companies to move production overseas.

[louis c]

44. That's where solidarity comes in

We should ban together and through out of office those folks who give us bad trade deals.

we should demand that the Sec. of Labor be pro-labor.

That's the whole point, we can't lat them divide us on wedge issues when our very lives and the lives of our families are at stake.

[vi5]

10. Well, if it means anything I see a ton of IBEW for Kerry stickers...

..around here. I'll admit I'm not sure what that union is, but here in NJ it's the most consistent amount of stickers I see on the back of cars/trucks.

[louis c]

13. International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers

and we are working as hard as we can for Kerry. NJ is a lot like Mass., pro-labor.

Don't get me wrong, Union workers are for Kerry by a Majority, but it really should be over 90%. After all, after your health, what's more important than your livelihood?

[Nimrod]

12. Part of the problem

I've actually heard someone say that the economic boom during Clinton's administration was a result of Reaganomics and the current depression is the fault of the Clinton administration.

No sh^t, this was vehemently pitched to me. I kept waiting for the guy to wink, but he never did.

Here is the sad truth as I see it: Stupid people allow hot-button issues to override all reason. Bush is a man of God working toward locking up those nasty queers, so everything else he does must be just and good as well. Clinton got a blowjob, so he's pure evil and never did anything right.

I'm not saying ALL Republicans have room-temperature IQ's, but there's a reason the Enquirer has a decidedly right-wing slant. That's their target audience.

[JHB]

19. As someone said above...

...20 years of Rush (and all the other RW spin machinery) takes its toll.

[MichiganVote]

14. Asking some of these people to think is like

asking a fish to walk on dry land.

[madmom]

15. UAW member wants to rant here.

The repigs and the media lackeys that serve these elitists and the elitist wanna be's have used the politics of division very well indeed.How much does the middle class , young, underprivaledged and infirmed have to suffer before they wake up and discover that politics is all about whats best for me and mine?

[TO Kid]

17. Happened here, do the math...

Here in Ontario, the union-owned governing party got trounced in 1995 by the Conservatives, whose main plank in their platform was a 30% cut in income taxes. Their biggest wins were in unionized blue-collar areas, especially among auto workers. Hardly surprising if you look at the numbers; most of these factory workers were paying marginal tax rates approaching 50%. I suspect that some of this thinking is going on in the USA, where the Republicans are (wrongly) considered the party of fiscal conservatism and the Dems are regarded as tax-and-spenders.

[gratuitous]

21. I think they're not so much selfish as scared

It's been drummed into them for the last quarter century that they are frightened little bunnies, and the only ones who can help them stand on their own two feet is the party of personal responsibility, the GOP.

Advertising works, and these bastards have been shilling and working overtime to divide the workers and get folks to vote against their own interest. It's been a master work, but the djinn's out of the bottle, and we're taking the country back. It's gotten pretty shabby lately, but it's still a pretty good country, and can be made great again.

[Neecy]

22. well...

I had some major renovations (new roof, new windows, siding, new gutters) done on my house last month, so I had workers trooping through the place for weeks.

They ALL commented on my Kerry/Edwards lawn sign, and to a person every one of them expressed complete disgust with Bush* and his polices (and several admitted to voting for him in 2000). In fact, there was a lot of anger in this group, bordering on hatred, for Bush. And this is in Republican Kansas.

I don't know if any of them were union, but they were all blue-collar. Regardless of the impact of Rush and hate radio, these guys have seen their pocketbooks impacted - one told me this is the worst year they've had business-wise in two decades - and people are pissed. So, take some comfort that not all blue collar guys are selfish or love the "Macho Bush" campaign theme. They see through the bullshit.

[KansDem]

26. Republican Kansas...

I live in a very-Republican suburb of Kansas City (Kansas side of state line). My wife and I were startled last weekend when we saw a 4-wheel drive pickup truck with the words "George, I can't afford you anymore" on the back window. The truck looked like one used by a craftsman with his own business. The stick-on letters were placed very neatly, and this led us to believe the display was carefully planned and intended to last a while.

At first, we wondered if this was a political statement since no other markings were visible (bumper stickers), and finally decided it was a criticism of the Bush Administration; it was just too coincidental. Your comments only reinforce the notion that self-employed craftsman with 4-wheel drive pickups working in GOP-land CAN dislike Bush and his policies.

[louis c]

43. kick

[OneTwentyoNine]

61. And this....

Going over to my dad's yesterday here in Wichita I drove around a bit and must have spotted 12-15 Kerry/Edwards yard signs.

Bush/Cheney signs? 0

Bush will still carry Kansas,all these thousands he laid off have plenty of time to get to their voting place to vote for him again.

David

[louis c]

42. Maybe I'm just frustrated

that I can't get through to all of them.

Perhaps 60% will have to do.

Now, I have to go back to work for my overtime. However, I know how I got it (unions), I appreciate all that sacrificed for me to have it, and I'm willing to fight to keep it.

louis c

[brook]

23. When I was on the board...

of my IATSE union, I found it difficult to convince the young, newer members that they ought to come to meetings, much less get informed and involved in issues. A frequent response from them was "The Union hasn't done anything for me except take my dues." I'd remind them that the union was responsible for them making $19+ an hour on their first job. I'd worked with men who'd muster out at 6 am for the chance to make $3 a day in the 40's/50's, so it didn't go down so well for me.

Things began to erode after Reagan broke the ATC - and as we lost bits and pieces at each new contract negotiation, the mantra became "I'm on board, pull up the ladder".

Without unions, we have no middle class - and without a middle class - we don't have the prosperity that makes us a world class country.
Unions need to educate the public - if for no other reason than to make them understand that.

[louis c]

41. Amen

but they still have to want to learn

[0007]

59. You are absolutely 100% right on!

I'm 71 and have seen it and been through it all. What is amazing to me is those that cry about the union taking their money are always the first to scream the loudest for the grievance committee to hear their troubles.

[brook]

63. Are you sure you're not me?

LOL...I'm 71 - and the calls I'd get late at night with complaints ALWAYS came from those whiners. "They replaced so and so with a non-union person last month -and now I think they're gonna replace me". I'd tell them their mistake was not calling me when the other guy got canned. I called it unenlightened self-interest.

[Aries]

24. Propaganda works

and the right wing has been buying media coverage and commentary for years. (Also see this month's Harper's magazine for a good article on this subject.)

Right Wing Organizations

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=3147

...Right-wing organizations come in all shapes and sizes, from think tanks to legal groups, local and national lobbying organizations, foundations and media forums. At any given moment, the Right is at work in our public school systems, courthouses, in Congress and state assemblies. At the same time, right-wing groups are reaching huge audiences through media outlets they own or influence—promoting regressive policies that seek to drive wedges between and among Americans.

These often single-issue groups have the ability to create multi-issue networks that can respond on a wide range of issues. People For the American Way Foundation’s library has files on over 800 groups and almost 300 individuals documenting their activities and providing information about their efforts to reshape society. This section presents a small portion of that information....

(Long list follows)

[midnight armadillo]

25. I think it's because the stakes are higher

The middle class is steadily eroding as wealth concentrates at the top.

I think people are aware of this, in terms of lower job security, inflation, health insurance costs, etc. It's becoming very hard to stay in the middle class, and an awful lot of people live with no safety net - illness and layoffs can really wipe them out. Plus the correlation of school quality to housing costs make this double true for parents who want a good education for their kids.

I think the "I got mine so go Cheney yourself" attitude derives from this loss of security. People can afford to be more altruistic and generous when their livelihoods and lifestyles aren't on the line.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. Fear is a big part of it

When it's legal to replace strikers permanently, the idea of "sticking with the union" holds less appeal. The fact that "solidarity" can lead to losing jobs together with all your fellow union members encourages workers to "look out for Number One."

Tax cuts hold some appeal in high-tax states. I received this bit of enlightenment when I did my taxes last week (yeah, yeah, I got an extension). Having moved from Oregon to Minnesota about a year ago, I had to pay two state income taxes. I was reminded that Oregon has what amounts to a flat tax: 9% on everything over $6,500 a year. No wonder the anti-tax zealots have such a following among the working class there. Those people are, in fact, over-taxed, while the rich and the corporations are seriously under-taxed, with some major corporations paying only a token $10. (Interestingly enough, even though I earned 58% of my 2003 income while living in Minnesota--business picked up--, my Oregon state tax was twice as high as my Minnesota state tax.)

But I digress. The important point is that between flattened state income taxes, sales taxes, and FICA, low-income workers ARE over-taxed relative to higher-income people. That's why they are such suckers for Republican talk of tax cuts, even though they may see very little benefit from them. An Oregonian blue collar worker looks at 7+% of his paycheck going to FICA and 9% to the state, property taxes unchanged or higher despite a tax limitation initiative in the 1990s, and as a result, he will fight to the death practically against the idea of a sales tax.

To break through this financial fear, I wish that the Dems would pound the idea of raising taxes on the wealthy (let's say $200,000/yr of income from all sources) and lowering them on anyone who makes less than the median income. To take Oregon as an example, they seriously need to add some progressivity to their state income tax and lower the rates for anyone making less than $30,000.

[loveandlight]

29. Yes, fear and confusion

I think you are absolutely right. People are afraid and insecure in their jobs and in fact are over taxed, but that is because the wealthy corporate interests have managed to confuse the issues. They get people to vote against themselves by making the tax cut issue seem as though it is about the average man getting a break, when it is really about the corporate interests getting more of a break. And the less we tax the wealthy, the more we need to tax the lower income people, because money for government services needs to come from somewhere.

The book on What's the Matter with Kansas does a great job of explaining the way the right wing has used this fear and insecurity to get people to vote against their own interests, using social issues as an outlet and a scapegoat for people's anger and fear. I think the only way to turn this around is a consistent message in the opposite direction, pointing out how in reality the economics of supporting the Bush kind of tax cuts really fight against our own interests. I think that message, however, at this point is going to have to be pushed from outside the two parties, since both are now beholden to the same corporate interests that promote the ideas that have confused so many people.

I am somewhat heartened by Kerry's message of hope instead of fear. And he does have a new tax plan that will raise the taxes on some of the wealthy again. But I don't think he closes enough of the corporate loopholes, of course, can't be too threatening to those in control. I think we have to push from the left to get him and others in the Democratic party to stick to these issues and not give in totally to the corporate side. But I don't think they will really listen until we have a stronger movement from the bottom up. That is another message from the book on Kansas, the lack of social movements to support the laboring classes and the poor. We've got politics now all jumbled up over social issues and the economics of what is happening to the majority of people in this country has gotten clouded over and pushed to the side. We need to remake that message.

[boot@9]

27. Read

"What's The Matter With Kansas" by Thomas Frank. It helps to explain why so many people vote against their own self economic interests.

[Bozita]

47. Yes! "What's The Matter With Kansas" -- the MUST READ book of the year

Divide and conquer. Fear and hate.

Outstanding reading and right on target.

BTW, welcome to DU. (I like your choice of books.)

[MissB]

48. Ditto on the book recommendation: What's the Matter With Kansas. (nt)

[Cocoa]

30. there are assholes in every economic class

it's human nature.

[skygazer]

31. People get apathetic

and forget where those benefits came from. It's like all the people who don't vote - our forefathers fought and died for the right to choose their own elected officials, our mothers marched and fought to gain the right for women, we fought a civil war and then had to launch a civil rights movement to ensure the right for people of color and yet only half the eligible people in this country vote. They forget how hard it was to get the rights in the first place and don't appreciate them now. It's enough to make you chew off your own foot........

[Kanary]

32. that's one opinion

[Kanary]

33. When? It's been quite a while since it started turning

I have a neighbor who is a mail carrier, and he rants all the time about postal workers voting against their best interest.

Part of this has been discussed before...... many union members felt like the Dems sold them out when all the union busting was going on.

Another factor -- those who are doing well in the unions are affected by the same "ME" emphasis that the rest of the society is. "I got mine, to hell with you." As long as the ideal is to take care of only yourself, and beat off the others who are wanting *their* share, then there's clearly going to be this kind of idiotic vote.

Kanary

[bo44]

34. They act like made men

They are "in". Non commissioned ass lickers for the ruling class. They can barely afford their houses, suvs, boats, harleys, private school for their kids, and twice yearly cruises on the good ship suck ass but shhh don't tell anyone they're two empty pay periods away from foreclosure and a job selling lighting at Home Depot. They are fucking empty. Defined by their material bullshit and their phony standing as the right hand man for their greedy old prikkk boss.

[UdoKier]

35. They're hardly selfish. Quite generous actually.

Giving up their wages, benefits, labor protections, even their children to the BFEE and it's billionaire allies.

The decline of unions in this country is extremely disturbing as is the prevalent (and largely false) stereotype of organized crime/union corruption).

Though the unions have been good in organizing, baragaining and campaigning for pro-labor candidates, perhaps their greatest failure is their inability or disinterest in educating workers about the proud history of the labor movement, the horrible conditions that existed before the labor movement fought and died to change them, and the FACT that the GOP and DINO elements of the Democratic party are inexorably moving to reverse ALL the gains won by the labor movement and return us to a Gilded Age/Third World economy.

This is where I believe the labor movement needs to concentrate a lot of its energy - education. First of workers, then even sending representatives to schools to give presentations to future workers. Believe me, the shcools are NOT teaching this stuff.

[Kanary]

36. Very good point!

Another aspect of the left resting on it's laurels, and letting success slip through it's fingers.

Kanary

[louis c]

40. You can't believe the disconnect

that most workers have with their Union heritage.

I agree that it is the responsibility of the leadership to educate its members about the importance of Unions. However, very few members get involved.

They pay dues, and want results, but they don't want to participate, and we can't make them.

Just like students, only those who wish to learn, will learn. A member can work without any knowledge of what the union movement stands for.

I am a Union President and BA. I am an AFL-CIO Committee on Political Education (COPE) member. I'm on the front lines, and let me tell you, it's not easy to convince those who choose not to listen. Many members take all that has been accomplished over the generations, for granted. Much of the failure is right in our school system that graduates students without the least sense of this nation's struggles or history.

My older members (55-65) are almost unanimous in there support of organized labor. Most of the newer members (20-30) wouldn't know Taft-Hartley from Harley-Davidson.

When you say that we should educate our members I would invite you to spend one day with me and see the attempts that are made. You would be shocked at the disinterest in the electoral system and the complete disconnect that the worker has with the importance of who runs the government. You can try to explain all you want, but when someone asks you to "leave me alone, I'm not interested" that ends the discussion.

Please don't misunderstand, a clear majority(55%-60%) of my members are good Union folks that will follow their leadership. However, I believe that a union position on candidates should be supported by a huge majority of the membership (85%-90%) and it seems those days are gone forever.

[dorktv]

49. One of the books I am reading is called Three Strikes by Stephen

Franklin. It points out that the Unions did not work to bring regular workers in or show them how much the union has done for them.

This is the big problem. Most people who belong to a union do not feel engaged by it. I know I was not and I love unions.

[louis c]

60. You can't believe how hard I try to do just that

I have meetings every month, and have to struggle to get a meager quorum. I send fliers and letters out. In my Union, I represent only those that I work with, and I work along side them.

I have appointed Assistants that are women and minorities to expand our message. I was successful in putting a hard ship fund that was unheard of, that is indirectly financed by Management in which thousands of dollars are given to sick or injured(outside the work place) employees. We provide services over and above what could be obtained by Union Dues.

My membership believes in me, yet it is like pulling teeth with some (a large minority) to convince them to Vote and work for Kerry. Many just quote Fox News and the Boston Herald. This is in Mass.

Luckely, and ironically, my greatest success has been with those 30 individuals who reside in New Hampshire, a swing state. It could be that subconsciously I realize that their vote is more important in this election than the Mass. residents. My membership is about 220 and I'd say 140 are for Kerry. To me, though, it should be at least 200.

[ItsMyParty]

37. Remind them of what Sec. O'Neill (remember him) said

This subject has made me wild for years and I've ranted volumes on it to friends, family and anyone who would listen. Unfortunately, we have people who believe that what they have today just happened and will always be that way........but I digress---let me tell you what O'Neill said when he was Secretary of the Treasury before being shitcanned by Bush.

Remember how he would shoot off his mouth and reveal things and it drove Bush nutso?? Well, he outright said to reporters that part of the Bush economic plan was to spend the next years reducing the pay and benefits of American workers so that our corporations would be more competitive with foreign corporations. Bush went nutso that he revealed the dirty litlle secret but never, never, never said it was a lie. If these union workers don't stand up and fight for themselves and their families like we did to get them the goddamn pay and benefits they have now, they are going to be in the sewer looking up within 10 years. Apparently the wealthy are now starting to talk in terms of owning "baskets of houses"---i.e., as the people can't pay mortgages any more they intend to come in and swoop up the real estate in the US and end up renting to all of us regardless of what income you make.

[sub.theory]

39. The Spite Vote

This reminds me of the following article by Mark Ames, wherein he argues that spite is the reason many Americans, particularly white males, consistently vote Republican, against their own self interests. I thought it was an interesting read.

You may read it here <http://thomasmc.com/0615ma.html>.

***

Spite-voters also lack the sense that they have any stake in the future of the country. There is something proprietary implied in all of the didacticism and concern found in the left's tone. The left struggles to understand why so many non-millionaire Americans vote Republican, and yet they rarely ask themselves why so many millionaires, particularly the most beautiful and privileged millionaires in Manhattan and Los Angeles, vote for the Democrats.

I can answer both. Rich, beautiful, coastal types are liberal precisely because their lives are so wonderful. They want to preserve their lives exactly as they are. If I were a rich movie star, I'd vote for peace and poverty relief. War and domestic insurrection are the greatest threats to their already-perfect lives—why mess with it? This rational fear of the peasantry is frequently misinterpreted as rich guilt, but that's not the case. They just want to pay off all the have-nots to keep them from storming their manors and impaling them on stakes.

[B Calm]

45. Blue collar workers who vote repub are into pain

I've heard they like being tied up, getting butt naked and spanked!

[falcon]

46. Bumper sticker

Honest to god it read "union worker for bush". I pulled along side of him and yelled that bush is a union buster. Totally out of character for me but it pissed me off so bad that someone could be that Goddamn stupid.

[louis c]

55. As I Said

it is equivalent to a store keeper that would have in his window in Berlin a sign which read "Jew for Hitler" in 1931.

[Green Lantern]

50. Most people

fight the battle but not the war.

When their personal goals are met, it takes the pressure off them to keep the pressure on the "others". They see the fight in terms of an end goal, not an on going process. i see it in the union I belong to, folks "win" a victory and think it is over. The bosses see it as a setback and keep on truckin'. then we have to gear up again for another fight. They don't see it all as one big fight that goes on and on.

We need to re-frame the issue so that people see their interests as being met or not met in terms of an on going process.

BTW, I agree - "What's the Matter with Kansas" rocks.

No more Busha.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

51. This admin. is only good for people who make $300,000+.

These people are a bunch of damn fools.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

52. People who make $70,000-$80,000 are paying the most taxes of anyone.

They pay the FULL amount of payroll taxes and also a high rate of income tax on the rest.

Payroll tax cuts off after approx. the first $80,000 of ones salary. And, what happens when these people lose their jobs?

[Strawman]

65. Yeah. Ask these people how they like being in Bill Gates' tax bracket

Because effectively, they are.

[doc03]

53. Here is a dilemma the Union workers in this area have.

Kerry says he will stop the exporting of jobs. Bill Clinton pushed NAFTA through with mostly Republican votes and I think Kerry voted for it also. Bill Clinton came to this area in 1992 and promised to enforce the trade laws and would put safeguards in NAFTA, then when the Asian economy was in trouble he let them dump steel in this country. Dick Chaney came here in 2000 and said they would enforce the trade laws. The Bush administration put the tariffs on steel and Weirton Steel was able to keep going and was finally bought out by ISG. Wheeling Pittsburgh Steel has come out of bankruptcy and is putting in a new furnace with the Byrd bill loan. So, a lot of the rank and file union employees will vote Republican even if it may be against our best interest. Myself I would be out of work right now with a small pension from the PBGC and no health insurance if the steel tariffs were not put on (illegal) imports. This is exactly why West Virginia, a state that is 2/3 Democrat is in play today and Al Gore is not running for re-election.

[louis c]

58. Help me with this

Bush repelled the steel tariff, after he approved it, didn't he?

On Oct. 2, 2003, I listened to Leo Gerard, the President of the Steel Workers speak at the Mass. AFL-CIO convention on Cape Cod. I have never heard a more eloquent denunciation of George Bush, and I've listened to plenty.

Later, we had a drink together and talked politics. At the time he supported Gephadt, and convinced me to, also. Now he is strong Kerry. I'm sure that he can explain better than I can why Steel Workers should vote for Kerry in this election, and any that don't must make him feel just as I do in the original thread.

[QC]

54. It's not only blue-collar workers who do this.

I wish I had a dollar for every person I've known who grew up poor, came into a bit of money, and suddenly started thinking like J. Paul Getty.

It's amazing how easily people can forget what it was like to work like a dog and watch every penny.

[louis c]

56. I mentioned "Blue Collar" in my original thread

because it is more than just some Union Workers.

Any working person who votes for this President has to have their head examined.

[louis c]

66. kick

[Justice]

57. Why Not Blue Collar; Watching CEOs and White Collar?

I am overstating this, but many Americans have moved to the "me first" category. You have seen it - aggressive driving just to get in front of you; cutting you off as you walk down the street, cutting in line, etc. Why should voting be different?

CEOs do it, white collar workers do it, why not blue collar workers. Why should they be the only ones left off the bus?

I am not saying it is right, just that you are holding blue collar workers up to a standard that no one else is meeting/expected to meet.

If you want blue collar workers to lead the way, then we have to support them and show them taking this stand is for all of us.

[louis c]

62. White Collar Criminals should be for Bush

it is in their best interest.

By the same token, honest, hard working blue collar workers should be for Kerry and the Democrats, because it is in their best interest

[louis c]

64. kick

[Liberal Veteran]

67. When people stopped doing so much better than their parents.

It used to be that a lot of blue collar workers came from rather humble beginnings and could remember what it was like to struggle, go without, go hungry, etc. and when they did better, they didn't forget what it was like so didn't mind the pittance being taken to help the poor and needy.

Once that started to change, then people began to be greedy and BLAME the poor and needy for being that way.