Should Illegal Immigrants Be Allowed To Obtain a Drivers License?

[Placebo]

Poll question: Should Illegal Immigrants Be Allowed To Obtain a Drivers License?

Should Illegal Immigrants Be Allowed To Obtain a Drivers License?

I don't think so, it's a slap in the fact to people who have gone through the normal channels to get one as a CITIZEN.

Also, in this time of terror, it's simply dangerous and an unnecessary security risk.

[matcom]

1. first of all, you poll doesn't work

second of all, HOW are these people supposed to be PRODUCTIVE????

fuck your "time of terror"

i don't buy it

on edit: your poll is working now. i'll vote

[Fescue4u]

24. They should be productive at home

[Demonaut]

108. the premise that they wont drive without drivers licences is stupid

and the fact they have no drivers licences would make it difficult to obtain insurance, and when an undocumented worker runs his Yugo into a Hummer H2 and wastes the Hummer H2......well looks like the yuppie is shit outta luck

[genius]

138. Not giving them a license is a security risk. Licensing involves photos

and fingerprints and an opportunity for our government to track them. Would you rather they secretly traveled around the United States?

[bullimiami]

145. WTF does "time of terror" mean anyway.

I would give them some sort of legal status, temp visa, amnesty or anything which brings them into the entire system. The idea of giving them just drivers licenses and that they will get insurance but remain fugitives otherwise is just stupid.

[MercutioATC]

2. No. Nor should they recieve health care benefits or public education.

Hell, they're ILLEGAL immigrants! If they didn't enter the country legally (or overstayed) why should they have drivers' licenses?

[Placebo]

4. I agree.

:yourock:

[matcom]

5. and you will be the FIRST to bitch

that they "need to find a job" :eyes:

[DUreader]

"illegal immigrant" is a reich-wing term, people cannot be 'illegal'

[Fescue4u]

How about Criminal then?

Since they are breaking the law every moment that they reside here?

[Placebo]

They are ILLEGAL Immigrants.

Why can't they be "illegal" if they are indeed here illegally?

Since when do we choose which laws to enforce and which to re-name and choose not to enforce?

[MercutioATC]

36. I believe it's their "immigrant" status that's being called illegal.

"Fast driver" doesn't mean the PERSON is fast, it means their DRIVING is fast.

"Illegal immigrant" doesn't mean the PERSON is illegal, it means their status as an immigrant is.

Either way, they have no legal right to be here.

[depakid]

92. How about undocumented workers

Smacks a lot less of the bigotry, xenophobia and downright inhumanity exemplified by some posters on this thread.

Frankly, some of these comments make me ashamed to be an American.

[Katarina]

54. Remember that when you are at Taco Bell next time

<snip>
More and more every day, the tomatoes we produce in Immokalee go to supply major, multi-national corporations. Long gone are the days when small, family farmers supplied area stores and chains with locally-grown tomatoes in season. Today, huge corporate growers with multi-state operations sell tomatoes year round to even bigger corporate buyers, including fast food mega-chains like Taco Bell and Burger King. Those fast food giants receive cheap, high-quality US tomatoes, thanks to the sacrifices of thousands of hard-working Florida farmworkers who pick tomatoes at a piece rate that has remained virtually unchanged for over two decades.

Why Taco Bell?
Taco Bell is part of YUM Inc., together with Kentucky Fried Chicken, Pizza Hut, Long John Silver's, and A& W Restaurants. These five chains together control more than 30,000 restaurants around the globe, forming the "world's largest restaurant system in terms of units," according to YUM's Annual Report. In 2001, Taco Bell generated nearly $5 billion in sales, while YUM reported system-wide sales of over $22 billion last year.

Taco Bell is a major buyer of Florida tomatoes.

Farmworker Conditions
Farmworkers who pick for Florida growers who sell tomatoes to Taco Bell earn between 40-50 cents for every 32-lb bucket of tomatoes they pick. For example, the Immokalee-based "Six L's Packing Co., Inc.," one of the nation's largest tomato producers and a contractor to Taco Bell (according to the industry journal "The Packer"), still pays 40 cents per bucket. That is the same piece rate paid since 1978.

At that rate, workers must pick and haul 2 TONS of tomatoes to make $50 in a day. Workers are denied the right to organize and the right to overtime pay for overtime work. They receive no health insurance, no sick leave, no paid holidays, no vacation, and no pension.

To date, Taco Bell has refused to take any responsibility for these sweatshop conditions in the fields where their tomatoes are picked
http://www.ciw-online.org/tz_site-revision/take_action/alert.html

Would YOU be willing to work with those wages? How much are you willing to pay for a pound of tomatoes? Whether you want to admit it, these people are doing a service for all of us and being treated like slaves. And you want to deny them health benefits and their children an education! I cannot believe I actually read that on DU.

Maybe you agree with this as well:

<snip>
MIAMI - Dozens of illegal immigrants awaiting their day in court are wearing electronic monitoring devices in lieu of detention in the biggest such experiment in the country.

The Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement began a six-month test of the ankle bracelet program in South Florida in August for possible nationwide use. About 100 people are wearing the bracelets so far in the Miami area. About 370 immigrants are still kept in jails in the area, officials said.

The monitoring devices were assigned to "low-risk, nonviolent alien offenders," said agency spokeswoman Barbara Gonzalez. "We hope to use these devices to release nonviolent aliens into the community while still ensuring their appearance in court as required."

About 60 people were assigned the devices earlier this year in Detroit and in Anchorage, Alaska.
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/09/30/State/Immigrants_get_ankle_.shtml

All these people did was come here to get a better life and get treated like dirt. Better be careful, the way outsourcing is going in this country, we all may be in the same boat one day.

[MercutioATC]

58. WHY are seasonal ag jobs paying so little?

Because they have a supply of laborers who are willing to work for next to nothing. Eliminate the illegals and wages will rise.

Saying "they take jobs nobody else wants" is a cyclical arguement. If they weren't here, the jobs would pay more and people WOULD want them.

[Katarina]

63. And like I asked

how much would YOU be willing to pay for a pound of tomatoes? They get sent back, you would not be willing to work for those wages. How much do you think crops would go up if they had to pay laborers +$5.00 an hour?

These "illegals" are human beings. My God, the Statue of Liberty means nothing anymore. Absolutely nothing.

[MercutioATC]

65. If we let them build our cars, they'd cost a lot less, too.

That's not an arguement for not enforcing immigration law.

I know they're human beings, they just have no legal right to be here. If they want to be in the U.S., they should comply with U.S. law.

I also agree we should take that plaque off of the Statue of Liberty. It really doesn't apply any more.

[alarimer]

84. I agree with you

Some of these people pay their life savings to someone to smuggle them into the US to pick potatoes or tomatoes or whatever. On the wages they receive they cannot afford to pay them back so they are virtually slaves. They live in very substandard housing (when they get any at all). Some farmers treat them well; others do not. But it goes to show how desperate they are at home to want to go through this. A lot of them die in the desert every year. Until Mexico (and that is usually who were are talking about) has a viable middle class and an economy robust enough to raise all of the people to a standard of living comparable to ours. Even the poorest people in the US and better off than many people in Mexico. And we as consumers need to be aware of where our food comes from; how it is grown and how illegal immigrants (and many legal immigrants too I might add) are treated in the agricultural industry. Maybe then we can make more humane decisions in what we buy. Maybe we will be more willing to pay more for a head of lettuce than we are now. I am definitely on the side of the workers, illegal and legal, who put food on our tables for next to nothing. I am a very surprised at the anti-immigrant tone here in a supposedly progressive forum. If you knew the reality of what these workers go through, there might be a little more empathy.

[genius]

140. Then stop eating. Thanks to them, there's dinner on your table.

[MercutioATC]

143. So if agricultural workers were paid a decent wage, I'd have no food?

That's a recurring (and silly) arguement. Essentially, it's just domestic outsourcing.

We'd be further ahead by employing Americans and paying a decent wage.

[Dookus]

3. Yes

they're going to drive anyway, so why not make sure they know the rules?

[Endangered Specie]

8. Yes because they are going to drive anyway?

Isnt that like saying "Yes, Id allow Crack Cocaine, because, crack addicts are going to use it anyway"?

[radwriter0555]

13. decriminalize drug use and drug possession while you're at it.

Why not?

[matcom]

16. PERFECT!!!!!

I'm IN!!!

[Endangered Specie]

25. Ok, let me rephrase that...

"Yes, why dont we legalize murder for serial killers, they are going to do it anyway"

My point is just because people are going to try to do something illegal is not a reason you should MAKE it legal.

[Dookus]

26. Because murder is a crime

and affects somebody else.

Who is hurt by an undocumented alien getting a drivers license?

[Endangered Specie]

driving without a license is illegal too.

"Who is hurt by an undocumented alien getting a drivers license?"... well getting into a car crash is something that comes to mind.

[Dookus]

33. and

not licensing them prevents car crashes? In what universe?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

43. You don't think illegal immigration is a crime that affects other people?

:wtf:

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

19. well

that's a separate discussion, but I think most people realize that the war on drugs has not been terribly successful in ending drug use.

Now to the point of this thread -do you think denying a drivers license to undocumented aliens prevents them from driving? Since they ARE going to drive, isn't it better that they be tested and certified as being capable?

As for people wanting to withhold health care and education, that's phenomenally short-sighted. It is in OUR interests that infectious diseases be contained and that children be educated.

[MercutioATC]

44. How about just deporting them? Why condone a criminal act?

[Dookus]

47. such simple answers!

Why has nobody thought of that before? :eyes:

[Endangered Specie]

6. Absolutely not.

It is paramoutally unfair to the Legal Immigrants and citizens already here. There is also a matter of safety, II's dont take drivers ed, and they dont have to present as many documents and id when getting a license.

I would like to see someone explain why they voted "yes"

[matcom]

7. ask away

i voted yes.

they are here.
they have families
they are (usually) doing the jobs YOU don't want
they are trying to make a living
License them.
Tax them.
Let them work.

[Placebo]

10. How about they come into the country LEGALLY?

And earn the right to enjoy all of those things.

[matcom]

12. how about we HELP them get off welfare!

get them a license and GET THEM TO WORK!

on edit: HOW ABOUT WE STOP OUR UNFAIR TRADE WITH THEIR COUNTRIES SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO COME HERE TO LIVE?????

[radwriter0555]

15. er illegal aliens can't get welfare.

...

[matcom]

18. don't think so?

guess again

[bossfish]

17. and they can get insurance, etc.

They're here and already driving....get them on record.

[Endangered Specie]

20. Let me respond to that...

I dont see a problem if they get licenses if they go through the same process everyone else does, but, I know of places (including here) that have laws that make it easier to get a license as an II than a Legal citizen, I would be ok with it if the laws applied to everyone, although personally I think we need to adopt a European/German style vehicle training and licensure system.


As far as getting to work, there are other ways to get where you need to go.

"they are trying to make a living"... we all are

"they are here. they have families"...yes, but that in itself is not grounds for a driving permit.

[matcom]

23. yes it is

otherwise they go hungry and end up on the 'doll'

i suspect YOU aren't standing in line waiting to pick tomatoes but then again, maybe you are :eyes:

[Endangered Specie]

49. Oh I like that kind of reasoning

Hell Drunks Drivers are here and have families, lets give them licenses too! same thing for 5 year olds! :eyes:

[Dookus]

52. again

comparing this to clearly illegal and dangerous acts is silly.

[Endangered Specie]

136. No, Im just trying to point out, sarcastically...

that just because they are here and have family doesnt automatically entitle someone (including II's) to a license.

[Cronus Protagonist]

100. Your arguments are a real treat to read for their fallacies

I think you must have the list of fallacies in front of you, because you're going right down the list, apparently.

Now you've reached the point of comparing healthy people who don't have a piece of paper to dangerous drunk drivers who kill and maim and cause property damage without even a shred of a connection in reality.

I'm only surprised you haven't called them the "brown menace" yet. Soon, it will be time to dust off your white mask, dude.

SHOVE IT! - Drop Bush Not Bombs! - Hero Kerry AWOL Bush
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[Endangered Specie]

137. Ironic to critisize me on fallicies and make ad hominem attacks

in the very next sentence.

Im trying to make a point, We all are here and we all have family, that dont mean we get special treatment at the DMV.

[KamaAina]

57. Other ways to get where they need to go? Where do you live?

In an urban area, I'm guessing. In huge chunks of this country there is no transporation, none at all. If you're in one of these areas, and you don't drive, you're trapped: part of the economic underclass.

[Gregorian]

27. I agree. They are human beings.

Besides, what will no license accomplish?
If we don't want people coming into our country, then keep them out. Don't make their lives miserable once they're here.
That's a republican type of ploy. Like making drugs illegal will keep people from getting high? Not.

[kymar57]

72. Agree G n/t

[brook]

59. I voted yes.

It's "paramoutally" important to start people who want to be here -{and who do pay taxes, btw, on their food,gasolines, clothing, etc. - and on 'pass-thru' via rent -property) -on the path to citizenship. They take the same driver license test you do. They plant, weed, pick most of the food on your table. They watch your children. They clean your restrooms. They mow your lawns. They clean your motel rooms. They wash your dirty dishes. IOW, they do all those things you either take for granted or think are beneath you; which you think are your 'due' by accident of birth.

I have a hard time with xenaphobia.

[Endangered Specie]

134. I dont know why you are accusing me of being xenophobic...

I am fully aware of the 'low' jobs that these people take up. What I would like is a more sensible immigration law that allows more people to come in, (but you still need limits), that way, they could become legal immigrants -> citizens faster, and this whole drivers license issue will no longer need be, as they will stand in the line with the rest of us at the DMV.

[LifeDuringWartime]

9. if they apply for citizenship

then why not?

[stavka]

99. ...then they are not "illegal"

[radwriter0555]

11. SURE! AND work permits so that they can work, EASILY with little

paperwork and no restrictions at all.

If of course, you're speaking of our American neighbors to the south.

Why not? Legalize their work here, let them pay taxes. Of course then giant corps who hire so-called illegals would then be required to pay them fair wages and give them benefits, which would in fact STOP the flow of such workers.

[canuckybee]

14. After I had to jump through hoops

for months to get mine legally? A resounding HELL NO from me.

[bossfish]

21. Why was your license so hard to get?

Maybe it was the "jumping through hoops"...

For my test, they made me drive a car.

[canuckybee]

70. because I am not American

I live here, am married to an American, pay taxes on my income which comes from a Canadian pension, but getting a drivers license was the hardest part of the process. I had to apply for residency ( not cheap ) sit around and wait for months to get a work permit ( I have no intention of working, but needed that to get a SS card ). Then had to apply in person for a SS card. Then to the DMV to exchange my license for an American one as per the rules. Anyone here ever have a pleasant experience at the DMV? Took hours of arguing with some smug little officious person to get a license.

In the meantime, had I been stopped using my Canadian license the rules say you get taken immediately to court, do not pass goo yada yada yada. The whole process took almost a full year.

[Dookus]

22. How are you negatively affected

by somebody else getting a driver's license?

[Endangered Specie]

30. Ever heard of a car crash?

[Dookus]

31. Yes

don't be silly.

Do you think denying them drivers licenses somehow makes them immune from crashes?

The fact that they can have accidents like the rest of us argues for licensing and insuring them.

[Fescue4u]

35. I would prefer that have crashes at home

They are welcome to crash in this country once they become a citizen.

[Dookus]

39. and I want a pony

but I'm not building a stable just yet.

They're here. They work. They're not going home tonight. We need to deal with it instead of spouting right-wing platitudes.

[Fescue4u]

61. I agree

"We need to deal with it instead of spouting right-wing platitudes."

And we need to deal with it by sending them home.

We don't have enough jobs for our own citizens, let alone those than come in an illegal syphon off jobs.

[Dookus]

77. then tell me your plan for doing so

"send them home" is a simple-minded slogan. Tell me how many agents you hire to find them. Tell me how you find them all. Do we do home-by-home searches? How much of a police state are you willing to accept to accomplish your goal.

Then tell me what the impact of this round-up will be on the economy? What happens to agriculture, restaurants, landscaping and other industries that rely on their labor?

What do we do with the children of such people who ARE legal citizens? Do we keep the kids and send the parents back? Or do we deport the kids, too?

Simple minded slogans are more appropriate for FreeRepublic. We try to deal with reality and complexity here.

[Fescue4u]

112. Like anything else that is illegal

When detected, prosecute.

If an illegal gets pulled over for speeding, instead of giving him/her a ticket for speeding and no license, give'm a ticket for speeding, no license and a trip back to their homeland.

The restaurants, landscaping etc etc that are preying on cheap illegal labor will have to start obeying the law, and hiring citizens or legal immigrants.

[Dookus]

114. Ok

traffic cops can find 1% of them. What about the rest?

[Fescue4u]

124. What about'm?

Im not advocating a police state to catch illegal aliens.

Im just saying that when they are identified, and verified to be illegal, ship'm back.

Its no different than any other crime.

[Dookus]

127. I would argue it IS different

from many crimes. In murder or theft or assault, there is an identifiable victim who has been harmed. That is not the case for undocumented workers.

The question, though, is how do we identify them? Do we use the healthcare system and the education system to do so? If so, we simply push people away from those systems, to our own detriment.

[Endangered Specie]

40. License and insuring them... YES

making the process easier for them than the rest... NO

[Dookus]

42. I don't see

where anybody has suggested a special express line at the DMV for undocumented aliens.

[Endangered Specie]

46. The fact that they dont have citizenship and a SS number

means they cant get a license.

[Fescue4u]

32. Would be an excellent way to change your identity

Wanted for other criminal acts?

Fine, tell the burea that you are an illegal, take the driving test, get an id.

Viola! You are now somebody else.

[KamaAina]

55. Where does it say that a driver's license must double as an ID?

You have no idea how much trouble not having a license has caused me. In most states I have had to go to a separate office to get a state ID, all because it's just assumed that anyone important enough to need an ID also drives.

So, why not make the driver's license indicative only, of the privilege to drive, and enforce the stricter paperwork requirements for the state ID, which proves your IDentity.

[Fescue4u]

No where, but everywhere

I agree. D/L have assumed a role that was never intended.

Hell, you cant even fly anymore with a DRIVERS license.

[MercutioATC]

62. Sure you can. Any government-issued photo ID will work.

[Fescue4u]

60. No where, but everywhere

I agree. D/L have assumed a role that was never intended.

Hell, you cant even fly anymore with a DRIVERS license.

[Demobrat]

28. Yes, and they should be forced to get insurance too.

Given a choice between getting hit by an illegal immigrant with no license or insurance, who can simply go back to Mexico or melt into the underground, and getting hit by an illegal immigrant with a license and insurance, I'll take #2, thanks.

[DU GrovelBot]

34. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v3.0
==================



This week is our third quarter 2004 fund drive. Democratic
Underground is a completely independent website. We depend almost entirely
on donations from our members to cover our costs. Thank you so much for
your support.

[Endangered Specie]

Dont give this guy a license.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

37. Of course not.

But if they apply, perhaps the DMV could forward the collected info to the INS.

[MercutioATC]

45. Now THERE'S a plan!

[AndyTiedye]

38. YES! Better They Learn To Drive BEFORE They Start Driving

The purpose of driver's licenses is to make sure everyone does that.
It also allows violations and at-fault accidents to be tracked.
If someone repeatedly violates the traffic laws or causes accidents
through negligence, his license can be suspended or revoked.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Placebo]

48. Is It "Freeper"-ish To Want the Law of the Land Enforced?

I think not.

[Dookus]

53. No

but the simple-minded demand that "they all be deported" is freeperish. It ignores reality in favor of a ridiculous "law and order" goal that is unattainable.

[MercutioATC]

56. I'm not saying that it could happen at once, but why encourage

them to stay in this country illegally and make it easier for them when what we should be doing (IMHO) is making them leave the country?

[Dookus]

73. People

seem to think the impetus for this idea is some altruistic desire to give something away to undocumented aliens just cuz we're nice.

It's not.

The reason is to make us ALL safer.

[MercutioATC]

74. I don't feel that it makes us safer than simply enforcing the law.

Are you saying that we're somehow safer by not only ignoring immigration law, but encouraging people to break it by legitimizing their status once they're here?

[Dookus]

80. I'm saying

as I've said here repeatedly, that we are ALL safer if drivers have to take and pass a test to confirm that they're able to do so and are insured.

[MercutioATC]

94. We agree on that.

I'm not sure it's a great case for ignoring immigration policies, though...

[0rganism]

50. Illegal immigrants are breaking the law by being here

We probably should have looser immigration laws, with easy-to-obtain agro worker annual visas. But until we do, granting drivers' licenses to people who shouldn't be here anyway amounts to cognitive dissonance on a governmental level. Fix the immigration laws and we won't be having this problem.

[fob]

51. YES.

You make the best reason FOR it right in your own post with this line;
Also, in this time of terror, it's simply dangerous and an unnecessary security risk.

So you would rather have undocumented persons running around in this country? I think it makes more sense to have everyone here rise to at least the same level of ID that I have to procure/provide. If we give "illegals" licenses, only those that can't afford to come to light will be without id's. This would also help end the black market for id's, which would again expose those that come here and can't afford to have their existence known.

Now you can say the "purported 9/11 hijackers" had id's in their own names but that is a seperate issue of enforcement. Also, they have been reported to have had passports, but what if they were required to get a driver's license, wouldn't that have been another chance to discover they were here illegally AND on a terrorist watch list? Why do you hate America?

If I gotta provide name/weight/height, proof of insurance, color of eyes, et cetera for a PRIVILEGE (after all driving's not a right - per my repuke friends), then why shouldn't everyone else?

[matcom]

64. silly. DON'T try to inject REASON into this "debate"

trust me. it isn't likely to "work" :eyes:

[fob]

67. You're right. After reading all the highly reasoned arguments to the

contrary I obviously went temporarily insane.

Thanks for the hippo-slap. It won't happen again.

:evilgrin:

[pinto]

66. Respectful of the understandable array of opinion, I say yes.

I live in CA. Undocumented, immigrant and migrant workers are a fact of life here. I support any reasonable steps to recognize, and yes support, their contributions to our state and our country. If that means a driver's license to take the kids to school, I'm for it.

Assimilation into the "mainstream" is a standard of American immigrant cultural history. I hope we never let that standard go by the way.

[Demobrat]

69. I live in CA too.

And prefer to deal with reality, not how things "should" be. The reality is that they are here, they are driving, and they get into accidents just like everybody else. Unlike everybody else though, they can skip away laughing and the person they hit is just...screwed. So I say yes, license them and make them get insurance like everybody else. As I'm sure anybody who's ever been nailed by an illegal who just disappeared would agree.

[Cronus Protagonist]

102. You're way too sensible for the shrill racists posting in this thread

And I like you :)

SHOVE IT! - Drop Bush Not Bombs! - Hero Kerry AWOL Bush
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[ReaderSushi]

68. No.

It's a slap in the face to those of us who came here thru the legal channels. My parents did everything by the book. My father had to go ahead and was essentially out of my life for my most of my childhood before my mother and I were authorized to enter the US and that was just the green card. Citizenship took another three years.

And it was worth it.

Is it really so hard to ask potential immigrants to obey the law? The US already has the some of the worlds most liberal and generous immigration policies.

[UdoKier]

71. A solid majority of both GOP and Dem voters favor enforcing the border.

In fact, even most hispanics feel the same way.

And yet both parties continue to ignore the people.

PS your poll seems to say that a person must be a native or naturalized citizen to get a license. I think a green card should be sufficient. My wife hs NO interest in becoming a citizen so long as the US continues spiraling towards 3rd world fascism...

[KamaAina]

75. This helps explain why we're stuck with Ahh-nuld as Governator

of the nation's most populous state.

He made a LOT of headway throwing this red meat out as a classic wedge issue. Judging from what I've been reading here, it's not really too surprising that hundreds of thousands of otherwise reasonable Californians took the bait. And... well, you know the rest.

[DrWeird]

76. No. Neither should tourists.

It's just plain unsafe, what with Osama and all, for all these tourists to come to the United States and rent cars and drive around scot free, while at the same time making sure they have ID, a paper trail, and can pass safety tests. It's ridiculous!

First off, many of these people have never taken driver's ed. Many have never even seen the movie!

Some of them don't even speak English! How can they understand important sings like a STOP sign or H-> or the little airplane sign that means airport if they don't speak english???!!!!

Thirdly, it's a slap in the face for real americans who were actually born here.

Secondly, a majority of both republicans and dems and hispanics are in favor of using taxes to build roads. So go on ignoring the will of the people!

[matcom]

78. NOT TRUE!!

HOW are you gonna get a license WITHOUT passing a TEST??

I was stationed in GERMANY.

did I speak GERMAN? no
did I LEARN the street signs? yes
did I BENEFIT from driving? yes
did I LEARN as I went along with MINIMAL TRAINING? yes
its RACISM

PERIOD.

[DrWeird]

81. Look up.

There's a joke going over your head.

[matcom]

85. oh man. sorry

LOL

i'm just sick that this kind of thread shows up here of all places

for ONCE i lost my sense of humor (and that doesn't happen often)

thanks pal

sorry for the mis-interpretation

[DrWeird]

88. Yeah, all the dumb racists piss me off too.

It's always the same characters over and over.

It's like carlos never even left.

[Baja Margie]

79. This is a tough issue,

but you know, we are required to have FM 3's down here to be legal, or they can give you the boot. Most of the illegal aliens are doing jobs that the white guys don't or won't do. Most of the time, they are being paid under the table by cheap gyp-bag Americans, who are simply exasberating the problem.

The ones that do have green cards or work permits, are actually paying taxes out of their payroll. For them, I say let them have drivers licenses.

I'm sorry, but it is a security risk to give the illegals - those without visas, greencards or work permits - a license. Now, you are probably going to blast me on this one, but my husband works on the Border for Homeland Security, formerly Border Patrol. The amount of actual illegal criminals who come across is staggering. This group includes drug smugglers (and by the way, if they smuggle one thing, they are pretty certain to smuggle something else...i.e. chemicals, weapons, whatever, that is how they make their livelihood, they don't give a shit, just as long as they get paid)),horrible people smugglers - also known as coyotes - who charge up to $5,000.00 a head and are ruthless and have left thousands and thousands of immigrants stranded out in the desert and in enclosed vehicles to die of heat and dehydration(by the way, DHS has special units to rescue these people), thousands who are on the run from the law including rapists, murderers, you name it.You want these people to have a Driver's License ? I don't.

Our immigration laws need changing, for sure. I've said this before, Mexico in particular needs to start developing her own resources to employ her own people. In addition, the Maquiladoras need to be pressed into paying decent wages instead of slave wages and offer some benefits for these people. Who wants to work for $50.00 a week - a 12 hour day, 6 days a week? Forcing these huge corporate companies to pay better wages would act as an impetus for people to stay home, instead of becomming illegal.

[Baja Margie]

83. Oh, P.S,

Yes, you can get what is called a Driver's Identification Card in California without taking a drivers test.

[AntiCoup2K4]

82. It's no fun......bein' an illegal alien....

Got out of bed, wasn't feeling too good
With my wallet and my passport, a new pair of shoes
The sun is shining so I head for the park,
With a bottle of Tequila, and a new pack of cigarettes

I got a cousin and she got a friend,
Who thought that her aunt knew a man who could help
At his apartment I knocked on the door,
he wouldn't come out until he got paid.
Now don't tell anybody what I wanna do
if they find out you know that they'll never let me through.

It's no fun being an illegal alien
It's no fun being an illegal alien

Down at the office had to fill out the forms
A pink one, a red one, the colours you choose,
Up to the counter to see what they think
They said 'It doesn't count man, it ain't written in ink'.
Don't trust anybody least not around here, cos

It's not fun being and illegal alien,
It's not fun being and illegal alien,
It's not fun being and illegal alien,
It's not fun being and illegal alien,
An illegal alien, O.K.

Consideration for your fellow man
Wouldn't hurt anybody, sure fits in with my plan
Over the border, there lies the promised land

So don't tell anybody what I wanna do
If they find out you know that they'll never let me through.

It's no fun being an illegal alien,
It's no fun being an illegal alien,
It's no fun being an illegal alien,
It's no fun being an illegal alien

[Baja Margie]

86. No, it isn't any fun.....

Christ, our forefathers died in the revolution,to create unions - we all marched and fought against wars, we unified, so should these people, they need to get their act together and change their own Country from within, instead of just plodding along with the status quoand waiting for us to rescue them.

Keep in mind, also, that it is the Mexican government who is not granting these people visas. So, on the one hand, they are saying, oh but we want you to stay home, and on the other, they are doing nothing to improve their lives. It's pretty fucked up, but that still is not a reason for us to give out Driver's Licenses willy nilly. Sorry, I see too much shit going down at the Border.

[rasputin1952]

87. When I first started working in this country,

(yes I am a born American citizen, some aspects of my family fought in the War of 1812, and have been here to help build and defend this nation since), I never really had to prove I was a citizen. I always could, but there really wasn't much of a question about it.

Things have changed dramatically over the years. In what seems to me, a very short period of time, I've had to show my DL, my Birth Certificate, my SS Card, and occaisionally a second form of photo ID, to prove I was a citizen. All the while, in many places I've worked, I've worked next to "Illegal Aliens". How did they get to be employed withiout all of the inane hassles I had to go through? Many of them did not have Work Visas, and the quality of their work was generally above the norm. Just why, should I, a native born American citizen, have to go through all of this, while my counterparts did not?

The key here is "Illegal". For those that come to this country looking for a better life, I have no problem. Many came here from all over the globe, but the vast majority of them came here by the process of "legal" immigration. I cannot see where those who "played by the rules", should be short changed by those who flaunt those very rules in others faces.

This is not a perfect system by a long shot, but for me to see someone from say Mongolia who came here because they were persecuted, have to go through the rigors of gaining citizenship, and then someone else, avoid that, because geographically they were closer, I see a distortion in that that cannot easily be rectified.

I have great respect for those that come to this country and add to our fantastic diversity. However, to be honest, I have little respect for those that would sit back and laugh in the faces of the citizens of this nation for being so foolish. Can anyone name me ONE other nation that would permit this?

Just my $1.50....:)

[DrWeird]

89. How do you feel about needle exchanges?

Drugs are illegal, you know.

[Baja Margie]

95. Well, needle exchanges is not the issue here,

and, quite frankly, for the time being, until our society develops treatment facilities, hand those needles out !

I did want to add one thing, here in Mexico, we have to show proof of birth, proof of marriage, proof of income, valid US Passport, valid US Driver's License, have everything notarized, signed, sealed and delivered, pay a huge fee upfront and each year have to do the same process all over again in order to even get an FM 3, which grants us so called "legal" status.

So why isn't what is good for the goose, good for the gander?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

90. Total fucking scapegoating question..In Germany they probably ask if Jews

should back in the 30's

I deplore this question more than anything and I deplore the scapegoating answers given on this thread. People PAY for a fucking driver's license. When they buy gas, they PAY for roads to be paved. When they purchase a vehicle, they PAY for a license tax that covers many services including emergency services in some states...so my question is to those that say NO, "illegals" (I prefer to call them UNDOCUMENTED) shouldn't drive is...if they PAY for the license, they PAY for the gas, the PAY for the insurance, they PAY for the registration...what fucking skin is it off of your bigoted, scapegoating ass? That is TRULY all it is...scapegoating, fucking bigotry...

oh and to the threadstarter...how many Mexicans or Canadiens were on those planes? How many of the terrorists had a vehicle registered to them? Timothy McVeigh...he could drive legally...what a bullshit justification.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

91. First we steal their land and jobs, then persecute them for

coming here to do the work that we refuse to do. We deny them driver's licenses, despite the fact that many of the jobs we give them require them to drive. We refuse them education and complain of their ignorance. We refuse them healthcare and complain that they pack the emergency wards.

Ain't "compassionate conservatism" wunnerful?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

93. Especially on a Democratic board..this is why we are losing

My father's generation was just a bigoted and scapegoating as this one but they KNEW ONE THING...labor KNEW it had to hang together or get fucked by business...they DID hang together...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

97. Thinly veiled racism in the name of "law & order".

The usual blame falls on the anonymous "they" bogeyman. Why don't "they" stay home. Why do "they" eat up our tax money by using "our" services.

Of course, the complainers fail to note that "they" pay taxes, do the work we won't, and are here to work, not live off us. Unlike the corporations who demand tax-breaks, environmental passes, and threaten to move overseas if we don't give it to them. But, then, the corporate bosses don't need licenses - their chauffers do.

[Baja Margie]

98. Wait a minute,

You mean to tell me that you want smugglers, rapists, murderers, theives, money launderers, child molesters to illegally enter the United States and get a Driver's License? Let me tell you something, they are already up there, and more come across daily. These are bad guys, and you want to sanction them? Guess who's buying all the fabulous homes out in East Otay in San Diego ??? The cartels and their lieutenants, and belive me, they don't have Driver's Licenses, they are fronting the money (they have rooms full of money) to front men, who either have fake licenses or would sure like to get their hands on a legal one.

There are simply too many loopholes for the bad guys to get papered by granting complete access, without any restrictions.


I suppose , then, it's okay for the guys who massacred a complete family of 15 in Ensenada, including pregnant women and children with automatic weapons, slit their throats, and then fled to the USA to get a Driver's Licenses.



Give me a break, please.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

101. Is this sarcasm or anecdotal information?

You mean to tell me that you want smugglers, rapists, murderers, theives, money launderers, child molesters to illegally enter the United States and get a Driver's License?

Uh are you telling me that that is all that crosses the borders? Got any numbers from a credible org to back that up?

These are bad guys, and you want to sanction them? Guess who's buying all the fabulous homes out in East Otay in San Diego ??? The cartels and their lieutenants, and belive me, they don't have Driver's Licenses, they are fronting the money (they have rooms full of money) to front men, who either have fake licenses or would sure like to get their hands on a legal one.

As for the drug lords...if they have MONEY, someone will do business with them especially in a bad economy...and all this does is demonstrate why the War on Drugs is a complete failure which is a separate issue...but again I would be happy to review FACTS if you have any...otherwise your post simply sounds like "THE WETBACKS ARE COMING THE WETBACKS ARE COMING" with all the attendant hysteria.

I suppose , then, it's okay for the guys who massacred a complete family of 15 in Ensenada, including pregnant women and children with automatic weapons, slit their throats, and then fled to the USA to get a Driver's Licenses.

If it happened in Ensenada...well that's on the other side of the border where they probably paid the underpaid cops who buy their uniforms and guns from their seargents (yes, that is how corrupt it is in Baha..and that's how it works) to turn a blind eye...what's that got to do with here?

Again...your post is rather hysterical....BTW/..Tim McVeigh was here legally,....was he not?

[Baja Margie]

113. Too bad you are living in an unreal world

I don't need any statistics, my husband has worked for the US Border Patrol, and now Homeland security for almost twenty years. We live in Mexico. Perhaps you need to get a subscription to Zeta (you know, the one whose editor was murdered, shot in the head in TJ a couple weeks ago and then the criminal who did this vanished into the US) or La Frontera.

What the incident, and many other like them that occur here, has to do with the United States, is that the criminals who did this were tracked to the US. They entered illegally. By your standards, just the fact that they are illegal aliens guarantees them a right to get a Drivers License.

By the way, where do you live ? If you don't live here, then you have absolutely no first hand knowledge of what happens here.

Not a fucking clue.

[Dookus]

115. LOL

I thought I'd seen a lot of hysterical nonsense in this thread, but you win the Gold Medal.

[Baja Margie]

118. Okay,I tell you what -

I dare you to come and live with us for awhile, and go to work with my husband. It will be a real eye opener for you. Your romantic notions will be shattered.

Oh, by the way, I could tell you some real good stories of when we were living in Punta Banda how entire beaches were controlled by the Cartels, and everyone was on the payroll. Boatloads of dope and everything else went out of there.....


Oh, but, I'm just "hysterical", just like the Editor from Zeta.


By the way, that was the second Editor who was murdered from Zeta in TJ.

I bet you don't even know who Jorge Hank Rohn is.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

139. Gosh! And, here I thought those people picking fruit were fruitpickers.

Who woulda thought they were millionaire drug dealers and murderers! Those fabulous homes they're living in on the farms are sure well disguised...they look like shacks. Boy are they clever, masquerading as workers, dressed in overalls, driving BMW's that look just like '72 Plymouths.

Who woulda thunk?

[depakid]

96. So, if you as an American go to another country

should you be able to legally drive there? because that's what this is really all about-

Aside from issues like license fees and insurance, the fact is that undocumented immigrants are going to drive- their kids are going to grow up and they're going to get sick- just as YOU might, were you to be in another country.

How long have most of your families been in this country anyway? 60 years? 150 maybe? 300? How short some of your collective memories are.

And how shortsighted some of policy choices are. Immigration issues are far more complicated than most people imagine. They are not easily pigeonholed. Emotional responses or black and white thinking is usually misplaced- and often ends up producing contradictory results- like Operation GateKeeper, for instance- that tried to shut down the Mexican border and ended up substantially increasing undocumented immigration.

[Cronus Protagonist]

103. It's really about racism and xenophobia, but you're right as well

It's also about hypocrisy, power, control and selfish yet self-defeating philosophy.

SHOVE IT! - Drop Bush Not Bombs! - Hero Kerry AWOL Bush
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[napi21]

104. I have to get a visa to visit another country!

If I want to work there, I have to get a work visa. Each visa is limited to a specific term. When that term expires, you either get it renewed, of YOU LEAVE! I can drive in another country, but I have to have insurance somewhere...either in the US or in the country where I work.

My impression of this problem is that the intended immigration policy we have is extremely inefficient. Why isn't everybody fighting for improving that instead of always trying to find ways around it?

[Osama_Bin_Winnin]

106. Answer: CHEAP LABOR

[depakid]

120. Do you know how difficult it is for a Mexican to get a visa

to travel to the US?

I just visited some friends in Sumas, Washington, on the Canadian Border. Took the train (which was really great) and waiting on the return trip, talked to a bunch of Border Patrol Agents. These guys are actually really cool- and no one on the policymaking level actually listens to them (big mistake). At any rate, they patrol on the Cascade route (that goes to Vancouver) and I asked them a few questions. i was surprised to learn that many people from mexico, central and South America come to Canada first- because the US won't grant them VISA's. Then they rent cars or take the train to cross the border- some for migration purposes, but most just as tourists who can't get visas.


At any rate, the Border patrol huts think that for the most part, people come here for temporay work and would like to go home- and they think (no stats are kept of people who leave) thqt most would go home, if it weren't so expensive and risky to get back for the season.

[Osama_Bin_Winnin]

105. No but they shoul be required to carry auto insurance anyway

[Dookus]

109. You can't get insurance

without a license.

[gatlingforme]

107. How will all of Bushies help get to the WH???

[Lefty Pragmatist]

110. Yes.

It gets people on the rolls and above the radar. In this "time of terror," it's actually a good idea for safety.

As long as the US is a more attractive option than any other country in the world, we are going to have an illegal alien "problem." Deal with it. These people are no more criminals than anyone seeking a better life. They aren't stealing or killing, they're just scrapping (and it isn't an easy path). They are precisely the sort of people I would like to see become the next generation of Americans. Admit them and ship all the spoiled slackers to Mexico City for a year. We'd be a lot less white -- so what? We'd be a lot stronger as a nation.

[Strelnikov_]

111. This Thread Underscores That The American Working Class, And Immigrants

. . who come to this country to build a better life, are screwed.

The minute there is any discussion of tightening up immigration, a civil war in the left breaks out revolving around accusations of racism, nothing gets done, and the Iron Heel (GOP Capitalists) laugh all the way to the bank.

All the current immigration policy of this country does is create a black market for labor, exploiting those who are here illegally, and driving down the wages and working conditions for legal residents.

As an example, Midwestern meatpacking jobs paid a middle class wage ($20/hr+ in 2000 $) in the 70's. These jobs provided good health care and retirement benefits because they were unionized. As was related by a worker from this era, the social contract was that it was hard, dangerous work that left most workers crippled when they retired, and the compensation was commiserate.

Over the 70's and 80's non-union plants were opened, and the unionized plants closed or the unions busted. As compensation was much lower at the non-union plants, U.S. citizens abandoned the industry, and the labor void was filled with immigrants. Since the supply of this labor is virtually unlimited, compensation and workplace safety has plummeted.

The 70's era worker, in the interview I heard, indicated that there would be no problem attracting U.S. citizens to the industry if compensation and workplace conditions were similar to the 70's.

So, it appears to me that uncontrolled immigrant labor fills a void that it perpetuates, low wages that make the jobs undesirable due to an oversupply of labor, the classic supply/demand relationship.

What we need a guest worker program to stop the exploitation of immigrants and end the flooding of the labor market due to uncontrolled immigration.

Some thoughts on immigration policy from John Sayles which sums up my feelings on this issue.

John Sayles
From:A People's Democratic Platform
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040802&c=5&s=for...

"The Democratic platform should call for an end to the hypocrisy of our immigration policy. Our current policy, an enormously expensive cat-and-mouse game, most notably on our southern border, calls on the INS to enforce immigration laws that are openly expected to be ignored by countless US industries and private employers. Some sort of regulated guest-worker program is needed.

Once it is in place, if immigrants continue to enter the country illegally and can't find work, word will filter back and the numbers will decrease dramatically. While in our country, however, those guest workers need to be protected from exploitation--to be assured they will be paid for their work, that their working conditions will meet state and federal safety standards and that they will receive no less than the federally mandated minimum wage (which needs to be raised).

Employers would be required to withhold some percentage (perhaps the equivalent of federal taxes and Social Security) from wages to help defray the costs of the program. Penalties for hiring foreign workers outside of the program would be high enough (and sufficiently enforced) to end the black market in labor that is thriving now.

Protecting all workers in this country is an important first step toward the amendment or abolition of NAFTA and the protection of workers throughout the world."

[Baja Margie]

117. Absolutely.

The Bracero program is a good blueprint, although many changes need to be made regarding human rights.

Look, you guys, stop arguing over Driver's Licenses and start working to overhaul our Immigration System, our agreements with Mexico, and an end to the exploitation of these people by the Corporate Maquiladoras.

I would like to also CLARIFY something for you guys:

You don't need to show proof of insurance for a driver's license,(in California) you need to show proof of insurance to register a vehicle. Overall, what happens down here, is that many Mexicans will go up to the States and buy vehicles - and resale them down here. The vehicles are bought by the poorer Mexicans, this is just about the only way they can afford a car.

So, the argument for insurance just doesn't wash. These vehicles are driven both in the States and in Mexico, but since they were bought in Mexico, the owner does not have to comply with California Insurance Laws.

[Bucky]

116. With all due respect... are you people nuts? These are unrelated issues!

It makes no sense at all to disallow people to have drivers' licenses because their residency status is undocumented. In Texas we've been allowing illegals to drive and insure their cars and pay their taxes (ahem!! you deficit hawks) and we've not had a SINGLE act of terror as a result.

In fact, from a security standpoint, it makes sense to get some kind of government ID on people who are here, even if they have managed to evade the INS system. Illegal workers are not a security risk, they are an economic boon to the whole country. Illegals are one of the biggest contributing factors to the solvancy of the social security system (they pay the taxes but they won't ever collect the bennies).

You want those people to be as fully employable and employed as the system allows. This is in your economic self interest, my fellow Americans, as well as being just the right thing to do.

[Baja Margie]

119. Oh Baloney

If they are illegal, then they are working under the table and nobody's paying taxes. Oh sure, the cheap Americans would like to keep it this way, they can pay the illegals less and plus they don't have to pay social security taxes. Everybody knows this.

[Dookus]

121. You are mistaken

that they pay no taxes.

First, not all taxes are income taxes. Second many have money deducted from their paychecks.

Why do you live among people you obviously revile so much?

[Baja Margie]

122. Oh, and here's one last thing for you to think about,

whoever it was that said it sounded like I was saying, "the Mexicans are coming ! The Mexicans are coming !"

I wonder how you will react if these major Maquiladoras pull out and go over to Taiwan, which they are threatening to do if they don't get more tax cuts from the US and Mexico. That would leave hundreds of thousands of poor Mexicans who have immigrated to the Borderlands without a pot to piss in. Currently, they live in hovels, no sanitation, no water, no electric, nothing. The communities reach from San Diego to Texas. Now, where are these people going to go ? Where do ya think?

Further, the current Mexican Government - Fox et. al. are laughing their asses off at the US for not being able to enforce immigration, while growing wealthy over the amount of money the illegals are sending home, the latest count was over $3 BILLION dollars a year is being sent back to Mexico by the illegals.

And for those of you who are unawares, there is a rapidly growing movement down here by the younger educated people to nationalize and
try to develop a productive society, which means, no to immigration in the first place. And it also means no to Tourism as the leading determinate of GNP, it also means no to the Cartels, and it also means making the wealthy here pay income taxes, which they don't do now. Mexico will never become a strong nation until the immigration stops. Period.

Instead of argueing over bullshit driver's licenses, maybe you should take a little trip down here, seek out some of these groups at the Universities throughout Mexico, and maybe a little trip down to Chiapas and support them. As we speak, there are offshoots of the Zapatistas trying to provide education for the kids throughout Mexico, trying to reach a goal of keeping the young generations HOME, and being hassled constantly by the authorities. Now, being hassled down here is nothing like being hassled up in the States,here you just fucking disappear. The changes they are trying to achieve are monumental, the corruption goes from the very bottom to the top.

Get your priorities straight !

[Dookus]

123. so we shouldn't discuss ANY

issue regarding undocumented aliens here until we all go down to Chiapas? That's silly.

[Baja Margie]

129. I didn't say you couldn't discuss

issues of immigration here, I'm just saying your priorities are fucked up.

[Baja Margie]

126. For your information,

Mexico rates the third wealthiest in the world as far as personal wealth. Only 20% of the people in Mexico pay income tax, you know, the money that supports education,health services, and infrastructure. Local taxes, pemex taxes usually end up in the pockets of the politicians. You ever wonder why nothing works down here ? Because the people who have money, don't pay taxes.

I certainly do not revile the Mexicans, I adore them.

Viva Los Zapatistas! Say NO to immigration to build a stronger Mexican Republic.

[Dookus]

128. sorry

it was your depiction of them as smugglers, rapists, murderers, theives, money launderers, and child molesters that threw me off.

[allalone]

146. Mexico rates the third wealthiest in the world as far as personal wealth

are they counting in the drug lords?

[slackmaster]

125. I voted YES but I have to add one condition

Driver's licenses issued to people who are illegal residents must be clearly distinguishable from licenses issued to legal residents.

They would have to be a different color or otherwise conspicuously marked to identify them.

Most employers accept a state-issued driver's license as evidence that a person is legally allowed to work in the USA. That is very important for jobs that give people access to cash, valuables, or computer data.

Here in California a driver's license (or a similar ID issued by the state for non-drivers) is the ONLY form if identification accepted by gun dealers as evidence that a prospective gun buyer is a legal resident of the state (and therefore permitted by FEDERAL law to buy a gun).

Anyone who enters into a legal contract (e.g. a loan) with someone needs to be able to determine that the person is here legally, so the contract can be enforced.

If an illegal alien can get a driver's license that looks exactly like that of a legal resident, the document loses its credibility as evidence of legal residence.

[Baja Margie]

131. Then, clearly, you did not read what I wrote.

You seem to imply that a carte blanche free for all at the DMV should happen, without regards to the reality of the situation. I realize that it is difficult to understand and see a situation for what it is without first hand knowledge, which obviously, you lack.

You also twist my words, I did not paint all Mexicans as criminals, but I know this, there sure would be alot of Mexican criminals in the States with Driver's Licenses if you had your way.


You guys complain about the coverage in the press not being "fair and balanced." And, it is not, we all know that. But, neither are you up there getting the whole picture of what's going on at our Borders. If you knew the whole story, you would shit in your pants. Forinstance, right now, and for the past few years there has been a serial killer loose on the Border. Over 300 Mexican women have been brutally raped and strangled, still no suspect. More than a dozen tunnels have been found, for trade in smuggling. Beta Police, who were supposed to be working hand in hand with our Law Enforcement turn out to be the ones who are part of the Felix-Arellano Cartel. Mexican officials laugh - let them go to America, they say about the criminals from Mexico, that way we do no have to worry about them. The Arellanos are still in business, one of their favorite money-launderers was recently elected Mayor of TiJuana. I guess we shouldn't forget about the sex trade - a flourishing business run out of the Borderlands, by the Mexican Mafia, or that of the child pornography ring, run out of the Borderlands by the Mexican Mafia, or the Freon smuggling operations (more profitable than cocaine), and I have to say, actually that ring is run by the Russians and Chinese with the Mexicans just doing point work for them. Criminal acts down here are simply not prosecuted, the bad guys make a run for the States. Daily, notices are posted to US Law Enforcement from Mexico Law Enforcement agencies containing thousands of criminal suspects who have not been apprehended in Mexico, and are believed to be headed for the US, if not already there. The myth that there are no guns in Mexico - what a joke, everyone has a gun or an automatic weapon.

Keep this in mind when you want to issue Driver's Licenses to illegal immigrants.

[allalone]

147. a really good idea

[stldemocrat]

130. People...

need to be able to drive. No matter where they are from.

[Bridget Burke]

132. Yes.

If you want to stop undocumented workers, throw a few employers into jail. But it'll never happen. Many of the workers need to drive--this is a way of getting them into the system.

What made you think you have to be a CITIZEN to get a driver's license?

Lots of hysterical racism & xenophobia on this thread.

And--"in this time of terror"--? Give me a break. Even Bush has abandoned that moldy chestnut.

[T Town Jake]

133. I'm really torn on this question...

...both sides make cogent arguments (when they're not making snide innuendo's that other posters are "Freepers," that is), and, let's face it, so much of this is tied into other issues that many of us care about, such as outsourcing of jobs, living wages, the decline of Labor protections that strong Unions once provided, low standards of living in poor nations, etc., etc.
But I tend to come down on the side of those whom say we should allow illegal immigrants/undocumented workers to have DL's, for now. But we should also, as a nation, get serious about enacting a series of laws that will both allow those who want to come here and make a better life for themselves an opportunity to do so legally, and at the same time improve border enforcement and crack down hard on corporations that exploit migrant labor with piss-poor wages because they know the workers have nowhere to turn to complain without fear of being deported.
Okay, now I've made everyone on every side of the issue mad, so I'll shut-up...

[Baja Margie]

135. Oh, one more thing,

I sincerely doubt if Kerry would advocate a free for all at the DMV.
Already, many, many times, he has spoke on how important it is for us to maintain a strong Homeland Security and to implement all measures that are possible to keep it strong, unlike Bush. Let me tell you, Homeland Security is now a huge umbrella consolidating several departments - orginally a Democratic idea to reduce in fighting and create efficiency. However, under Bush, there has been, at least at the Border, no new training, no new equipment, no new defense weapons, no new emergency contingent plans, no new nothing. Kerry stressed in his acceptance speech to build our Homeland security stronger.

Stronger does not mean allowing an exodus from Mexico, who arrive illegally, legal documentation of a Drivers License. I bet you anything,infact, I'll bet you a hundred bucks right now, that he will not support this proposal.

Instead, his administration will implement something alot like the Bracero Program of the 1940's and '50's with human rights adjustments. I believe that he will also pressure Mexico into validating visas for Mexican citizens to cross over, if they want.Presently, Mexico is dragging her feet on visas. Visas will almost singlehandly reduce the criminal element into the migration field. I also think that he will install a quota, pressuring Mexico into developing natural resources and jobs at home in Mexico. This will be a slow process, but in the end, it will be better for both Countries. I also think that his administration will cooperate with Global communities and slowly pressure Corporations to pay higher wages at the Maquiladora level. These will all be measures to really stabilize Mexico, at present, we have a PAN regime running out of steam here, and likely that the dinosaurs of the PRI might come back to power. Nobody wants that, well, maybe the plantationists do. This is not something that is going to happen overnight, but truely, when you think about it, isn't it better to support these kind of idealsthan to keep up with the same old same old and simply exacerbate the situation more by making it easier and easier for thousands to flood our borders, illegally, when in fact, Mexico could be a stronger and healthier democracy if they stayed home? I'd rather have a neighbor like that then what we are dealing with now, an oligarchy, plain and simple and repressive. Look at the long term picture, twenty years down the line, fifty years down the line, and you decide.

That's it.

Margie

xxxooo

[genius]

141. Now I know why people of conscience are leaving the Democratic Party

A lot of people need to be ashamed of themselves.

[Swamp Rat]

142. Forcing all Americans to have drivers licenses is unconstitutional

At least that's what my libertarian friends say, over and over again...

[Baja Margie]

144. Yes, they should be ashamed

that they are not backing populists ideals from Mexico and Mexicans who want to change their country for the better and to break out of this reliance on the United States of America.


You know, one aspect of this that none of you considered, was the ideal of the strong Mexican family unit. Of course, there are dysfunctional families, but the one reason why these families have been historically so strong is because they only had each other to rely on, there were no social programs to help them along, there were no public defenders, there were no outpatientclinics or drug rehab centers, there were no after school programs, there wasn't shit.

I have seen so many families torn apart and absolutely destroyed and left heartbroken, because one of the kids goes to the States, then another, then another, then another. Mexican women and men have come to me in tears - my family, my family...they're gone, they're gone...Oh sure, they send back money, but they don't come back. Parents, old and young, want their children to stay home. They want them to go beyond the 6th grade. But, you know what, the kids see all these American goodies - the cars, the ORV, the boats, the houses, and they want those things and they want them now. Rapid communication has exposed them to all the beaugois commercialism, and they are like spellbound and head for OZ. Don't fool yourselves into thinking it's about freedom, not hardly. It's about US commercialism.

The parents whose children have left ring their hands and cry, what did we do wrong? Weren't we good parents? Didn't we love them enough?This is the cream of the crop that is leaving Mexico, and it is a tidal wave.

Okay, so fine, grant all of them access, and leave behind an unstable Country run by a bunch of gangsters.

Oh, that's okay though, I guess we can always set up another Duarte in power, and forever Mexico will remain a third world dump, with only two classes - the rich and the poor.

Way to go people ! DUH !

[Swamp Rat]

149. ¿Que? ¿Estas hablando a mí?

"You know, one aspect of this that none of you considered, was the ideal of the strong Mexican family unit." Marjorie, I assume you posted this to my post by accident and are talking to other folks here. Yo estaba casado para cinco años con una Tica (de Costa Rica) e agora tenho uma namorada do Brasil. No tienes que decir nada a mí sobre "a familia Latina." Ya la conosco.

Apparently someone on this thread got to you, but I haven't the time to go back and read everything to figure it out. I hope it works out for you. ¡Buena suerte!

[allalone]

148. did I get zapped over to a freeper board?

geez, I'm thinking you live in CA and are talking Mexican nationals.
Yes, they should be able to get DLs and have insurance. My husband was hit by an unlicensed immigrant when he was a teenager. Gee, guess what. The guy vanished. He had to fix his own car. Face the facts. If people are here and working, they need a car. Why, Cheney and his gang would think it downright un-american if you didn't consume gas!

[Baja Margie]

150. You still don't get it !!

The Mexican Nationals, who are working in the states and are illegally in the states, don't buy cars in the states. They buy them in Mexico, because they are cheaper. The cars are registered in Mexico, not in California. Therefore, with or without a California license, they still do not have to pay for insurance, which they don't buy, since the vehicle is not registered in California.

Once again, you are not required to buy California insurance if your car is not registered there.

The whole insurance debate is bogus. Why is it, do you think, that you will see car lot after car lot from the border down to Cabo to the Mainland with American vehicles? These vehicles are imported buy individuals and what down here is called a 'corporation', a group of three or more people, who resale these vehicles to the peons. Originally, these vehicles are insured when the corps, as we call them, buy them, but it is only for a matter of 30 days. Then, they are re-registered before they are sold, in Mexico. It's a real racket.

Another thing to remember, is that many of these vehicles are safety hazards, having been in an accident, or defective, there are no lemon laws down here.

Further, I would like to address something depakote_kid said. It is a fallacy that getting a visa is a difficult procedure for the Mexicans. Not so. With appropriate paperwork, birth certificate, Mexican visa, a visa from the US takes little or relatively hardly any time at all. Our friends received theirs in a matter of two weeks. The problem is, getting a Mexican visa from the Mexican government. Watch who you point the finger at there.

And, I started thinking, you know, it really pisses me off when someone calls me a racist or xenophobic, both my jusband and I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars down here helping people. I have two Mexican godchildren, we have put two girls through Secondaria and Medical School. We have paid thousands of dollars for hospital bills that afforded people with operations they could not afford, we have devoted hours and hours working with the Ejidos regarding environmental issues, including pesticide spraying, and the Nautical Ladder, have co-hosted drug rehab facilities (oh, didn't you know ? The kids are all strung out on Meth down here),paid US labor union wages to workers who help us, helped support Mexican Environmental groups in the battle against US sponsored LNG plants, got people on waiting lists for medical treatment at UCSD, helped at the Orphanages and alternative educational classes, donated time to Habitat For Humanity building houses for people, made damn sure every Mexican family we know that couldn't afford it enjoyed a Merry Christmas, worked with the local Red Cross and Catholic Church to help the Indians, donated to the local Fire Department so their equipment was updated, donated masks and safety gear to the guys working down here with asbestos, bought clothes, food, medicine for the needy. And, that's just for starters.

If you want to understand this culture and society, I suggest that you get a grip, and read Octavio Paz. Now I understand exactly why the Mexicans down here cannot stand you do-gooders. You are blocking the way for advancement, because you are so ignorant.