American swimmer cheats for Gold

[Seabiscuit]

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer04/swimming/news/story?id=1862948

Aaron Piersol set an Olympic record (but not a World Record) in the 200 meter backstroke today.

Then one judge called of his disqualification.

On reviewing the tapes it was clear he consciously cheated. Back when I was swimming AAU in high school, and also on my College Varsity team, a backstroke turn had to be a back flip, which was awkward and time consuming. Sometime recently, the International Olympic Committee decided to add some excitement and allow backstrokers to break more records by allowing backstrokers to turn over on their stomachs at the wall and take one smooth stroke with their right arm prior to doing a freestyle flip turn at the wall. This is a much faster turn.

What Piersol did was he turned over on his stomach too soon, saw that he wasn't close enough to reach the wall and do a freestyle flip with his right arm only (he would have had to kick himself to the wall prior to turning, which would have possibly cost him the race) so he made a conscious decision: he cheated by not only using his right arm for a stroke prior to the turn, but also then used his left arm for a stroke, and then his right arm for a stroke again for the turn. It's crystal clear from watching the tape rerun of his illegal turn.

IOW, Peirsol cheated.

The judge's motion to disqualify was over-ruled on absurd technicalities, apparently because "his motion wasn't in English, and "his oral motion 'didn't match' his written motion", whatever that's supposed to mean. Bullshit. The other judges apparently either weren't watching the race and missed Peirsol's turn or refused to watch the taped replay of the illegal turn.

Worse, NBC's announcer said some thought Peirsol's medal was reinstated due to a technicality, "BUT" (as if this had anything to do with the issue) the Austrian swimmer, who would have received the Gold Medal had Perisol been properly disqualified for his illegal turn, said something vague which NBC's announcer mischaracterized as supporting Peirsol's reinstatement. IOW, someone in the American press found some swimmer who was willing to be talked into saying *something* that could be twisted into supporting Peirsol's reinstatement despite the clear evidence that he cheated.

I've posted before about my distaste for NBC's "Americanized", biased, and nationalistic coverage of the Olympics, in contravention of the Olympic Spirit, but this particular case really reeks of pure pig vomit.

They won't even tell us if there was an American judge on the panel who argued for Peirsol's reinstatement.

Color me disgusted with the Olympics this year. I'll never watch NBC's sports coverage again. It's a shame. They have a virtual monopoly again this year - Telemundo, here I come.

:mad:

[Djinn]

1. You should see the Australian coverage

takes jingoistic to a whole new level! and no-one ever mentions that given how much money we spend on sport we should be do much better than we actually do. If you dare to mention that while Ian Thorpe is clearly a great swimmer he's not a "hero" and isn't doing anything tangible except making himself richer and is a wee bit of prat as well - geez, might as well hand in your Australian citizenship!

[blitzen]

2. the Austrian silver medalist...

actively encouraged Piersol to protest the DQ as soon as it was announced...it's crystal clear if you watch the tape

Sure, there is jingoism, but this year's coverage is way better than its been for a long time. at least there is almost around-the-clock coverage (NBC, CNBC, MSNBC). Earlier tonight I watched Italy vs. France in fencing. And there is much less of the infamous ABC-style "Up Close and Personal" smarmy schlock.

[geek tragedy]

5. You also have to mention how gorgeous he is.

Or maybe that's just my inner gay man . . .

[Djinn]

7. don't see it myself

bit to metrosexual for my liking - blokes just shouldn't wear lippy period. although it does give him that ol "just because I dress nicely doesn't mean I'm gay" chestnut - no ian it's because you like men! worst kept sectret in Oz!

[geek tragedy]

9. I only see him in his swim gear.

The natural look is his best look, probably.

[Djinn]

8. oops - double post

[Pachamama]

10. Back off Geek, he's mine....

:hi:

Well, maybe there's enough gorgeous men there to go around for both of us.... :)

[geek tragedy]

14. Don't worry, I'm a straight man.

Boobs, football, video games beer. See--I'm straight!

[Djinn]

16. Sorry Pachamama

he'd be more likely to make a pass at geek!

[Pachamama]

18. Oh well, I'm married anyway...but I can fantasize, right?

I think the sexiest part of a man's body is the area above the hip leading down....what's that called....purrrrrrrr....

:hi:

[Chovexani]

52. David lines?

I think that's what they're called.

I'll be in the corner fantasizing with you Pacha. *fans herself*

[geek tragedy]

56. If he's got hair there,

the "path/road to Heaven."

[girl gone mad]

13. No..

he's hot.

[peach720]

87. Ian Thorpe is one of Australia's biggest sporting hero's...

He is their Michael Jordan, Andre Agassi or whatever. Plus he is very, very good looking.

[JudgeSmales]

109. I need to get that

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[Ms. Clio]

24. Yeah--mindless jingoistic support! America, right or wrong!

Support the team, even if it cheats!

Only a real America-hater would have the bad taste to even notice it.

[geek tragedy]

33. Well, there was no cheating

so, some bias has to be involved to see cheating where none exists.

[Seabiscuit]

25. I don't hate America

and it's outrageous to imply I do simply because I witnessed what I know for a fact to be a clear case of cheating.

I didn't know Telemundo was owned by NBC. Thanks for the info. I guess I'll have to just watch the results on the internet. Watching NBC's lousy coverage takes all the fun out of the Olympics for me.

And yes, I'm rooting for Americans, but not just for Americans - I'm rooting for the Olympic Spirit, which isn't present in NBC's coverage, and I'm rooting for all athletes around the world not just to do well, but to enjoy themselves.

[Chovexani]

57. Sorry I don't buy that blind nationalistic bullshit

I support athletes who I like, regardless of where they come from. I don't fall at the feet of every American athlete nor do I bash someone purely for the country they represent. I have expressed my deeply entrenched hate for Michael Phelps in several threads, as well as a number of American athletes. But I am also supporting athletes who deserve my support because they are world class competitors and have a sense of sportsmanship. A lot of times that means rooting against Americans (like Phelps), and for them (Erinn Smart, a fencer from my area, the "over the hill" American gymnast whose name is escaping me atm).

I don't worship anyone because of a goddamn patch they wear on their hat, and anyone who does has problems. In case you haven't noticed the Olympics are an INTERNATIONAL event that is about celebrating the athletic achievement of humanity, not just the people from your own damn country. That's the problem with Americans, we are so xenophobic as a society we can't see past our own borders.

I was rooting for Svetlana Khorkina to fall on her ass because she's a bitch, not because she's Russian. And I was cheering for Hamm (the guy who won all-around gold in men's gymnastics), because he showed a lot of heart and fought for it, in spite of screwing up in the team event. Not because he's American, that had nothing to do with it.

Not cheering for your country's athletes != hating your country. What's pathetic is that this even has to be argued on DU, a place full of people who really ought to know better.

[President Jesus]

80. Why do you hate Phelps? Because he's a winner?

[girl gone mad]

82. Svetlana is not a bitch.

She's a diva, yes. But she has a heart of gold, according to those who know her.

[peach720]

88. The BBC coverage, the showed Svetlana Khorkina...

going around the hall, hugging the over gymnasts, shaking hands with coachs (mostly Russian anyway). She comforted her compatriot Anna Pavlova, she showed real sportsmanship and class, in the face of what must have been huge disappointment. She seems very popular amoungst the other Russians in her team. It was her that went to find Carly Patterson
to congratulate her.(Patterson did not leave her coaches side.) Khorkina is a real gymnastic diva and unique in her talent and flair.

[ChipperbackDemocrat]

93. why do you hate Michael Phelps

I'm somewhat new to DU, so why do you dislike Phelps?

[Orangepeel]

94. well, the Olympics is set up to pit country against country

it's designed that way.

Saying that rooting for athletes because they are American is xenophoic is just as ridiculous as saying that rooting for a non-American equals hating America.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

105. I'm rooting for him cause he's a backstroker and us backstroker's have

to stick together.

[Misunderestimator]

75. That's what I was going to say... GE acquired Telemundo last year.

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[AP]

6. His turn was legal. And the Japanese swimmers turn wasn't.

[Seabiscuit]

20. You obviously know nothing about swimming

if you simply declare "his turn was legal". Learn the rules, then watch the playback tape. Learn something.

[geek tragedy]

28. And you need to watch the tape.

[tkmorris]

74. I DO know the rules

Perhaps better than you do since you admit the rules were changed after you competed.

The turn was perfectly legal. Furthermore your characterization and description of his turn is so different from what I saw, again and again, watching the replay, that I am forced to wonder just what your agenda is. It clearly isn't impartial, though why exactly you want to fling about the outrageous claims you do will probably forever remain known only to you.

[Seabiscuit]

86. My last post on the subject

You can all pretend I just made this up, but my wife and I viewed the event together, viewed the replays together, heard the commentary, and both came to the same conclusions independently. Then we discussed it, saw another shot of the replay from above, and both remarked about Peirsol's clearly raising his left arm out of the water following his initial right arm stroke following his 180 degree turn from back to belly, then saw him use his right arm again at the wall during the turn itself. We both know what we saw repeatedly and what we heard.

There's no "agenda". Jes' reporting the facts, ma'am.

This thread obviously attracted the craziest of the crazies on DU. I never found it worth my time to continue arguing with people who flame for flaming's sake, or post a lot of irrational gibberish, and that's almost all I'm seeing on this thread. Must be 9/11 syndrome - even a handful of DU'ers became such super-patriots since that day that they are utterly intolerant of criticism of an American athlete at the Olympics who clearly (to anyone who watched the replays as carefully as my wife and I did) made an illegal turn without calling him all kinds of names and labeling him anti-American.

I have come to expect that from right-wingers, but I'm pretty disappointed in those of you who have simply resorted to flaming me in this thread. I never imagined DU'ers could stoop so low.

So I won't waste any more of my time in this thread. It's like talking to a wall. So, thanks to most of you for inspiring this parting shot: whether or not one thinks Paul Hamm deserved Gold in the individual all-around gymnastics, I, for one, heard him speak for the first time when he was interviewed after hearing he'd won the gold. And you know what cracked my wife and I up? He sounds like Donald Duck on helium.

[geek tragedy]

97. Sorry, but you were the one who was clearly in the wrong.

And yes, when someone smears American athletes with blatantly false charges (again, the tape doesn't lie) you're going to get a reaction.

Especially when you accuse the people telling the truth of being stupid, liars, etc.

It's not being superpatriots--it's preventing and debunking disinformation.

If you want proof--see this thread for the tape:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x1564493

You remain the only person on planet earth who claims he took three strokes. Everyone else who has seen it has rejected your claims.

DU'ers believe in truth and fairness. That meant debunking the nonsense you posted.

[thinkingwoman]

96. coming from a family of swimmers...

I know a little about swimming. We couldn't see much from the quick replay, frankly. Using the flip turn in backstroke does carry the risk of turning over too early and it's unclear one way or the other whether he flubbed it or not.

We'd love to watch the playback tape...where can we access it?

Finally, when my husband competed and whenever our children compete, judges' rulings are law. Will there be bad calls? Sure. The japanese guy won a gold with a clearly visible butterfly kick after a breaststroke turn--serious no-no. But the judges didn't see it or didn't call it and that's the way it goes. No whining.

For the last 5 years of Michael Jordan's basketball career I watched ref after ref refuse to call travelling and charging on Jordan. Does that mean he wasn't a great basketball player?

Sadly, or wonderfully, (depending on your pov) the legality of the turn last night simply would not and did not affect the outcome of the race. Anyone who knows anything about swimming (to paraphrase) your words, can see that his lead was too much to overcome, turn or no turn.

[wickywom]

108. i swam year round for over ten years

His turn was legal-
From the surface it looked like a pause, but if you watch the underwater footage his movement was fluid into the wall--
i have been personally dqed for pausing in a turn --
Pausing doesn't necessarily help you "cheat" anyway.

(don't snap at me about $ --i'm sending a check)

[Ohio Dem]

11. When this post shows up on FR, depicting the lot of us as

America haters, I wonder if they'll mention that you've been debunked. Probably not.

[geek tragedy]

15. The Freeptards will take this out of context?

Surely you jest!

[Ohio Dem]

17. Yeah, I'm just kidding.

They never do that.

On edit: Don't call me Shirley!!!!

[geek tragedy]

48. Can I call you late for dinner?

This thread has turned out to be fairly entertaining. Screw sleep!

[notbush]

12. This is not a personal attack!!!! Seabiscuit, I don't think YOU

understand the "rules" that were enforced to make this judgment.
If you would like to get into details, "bring it on".
Seriously.....my wife and I are both certified stroke judges.
The IOC rules on protests are something I'm not as familiar with.
Watching the tape I would not have DQ'd him. Stroke judging is subjective,as judging many Olympic sports are.
The 'Cheats for gold" title of your post also shows some ignorance of the sport. Nuf said.

[Seabiscuit]

22. Pure B.S.

You obviously were never a competitive swimmer as I was, and know nothing about the rules or what clearly happened as evidenced by the tape replay.

[scared]

26. You know what............

I think I'll accept the judgement of the commentator, a former swimmer himself, who watched the turn several times, with the rest of us on national television, and said that any disqualification would have been ridiculous. He saw nothing about the turn as it happened or after reviewing it that he found illegal.

[Name removed]

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[scared]

58. Boy............

You are a piece of work. You have one giant chip on your shoulder. I hope you can get over it someday. To make such a big deal out of this is just really petty. And to attack me because I choose to believe a former olympic swimmer over you, well that's just plain wierd. The race wasn't even close, and would have made no difference in the outcome even if he had done something illegal, which I still don't believe he did.

[K-W]

44. LOL notbush is a certified stroke judge, or did you not read the post

That means that he knows the rules better than a former competitive swimmer. But thanks for playing.

[TahitiNut]

111. As a former varsity swimmer (breaststroke) in college (60's) ...

... I'm constantly appalled at the 'liberalization' of the rules, obviously in search of new records to 'hype' the sport.

The backstroke turn rules are one of the areas where that liberalization is evident. OUAT (Once Upon A Time), the swimmer was required to touch the wall with his/her hand before initiating the turning motion. That's been eliminated, apparently due to the adoration for the freestyle flip-turn and desire to slant the sport in favor of medley swimmers instead of stroke specialists. (It's hard for a freestyler to learn the backstroke turn when inclined to do the faster flip-turn.)

The rules now allow any kind of "stroke" motion as long as it's part of accomplishing the turn, but since there's no longer a required hand touch that delineates the beginning of the turn from the straight stroke, it's virtually impossible to agree on exactly what's part of the turn.

Backstrokers are now 'required' to touch the wall with any part of their body at any point in the turn. D'oh?!? That's hardly a 'requirement' since shoving off the wall is the only damned way to reverse momentum in anything approaching a competitive way.


I posted before about how I think they've fouled up the breaststroke with liberalized turn rules and allowing the head to submerge below the level of the water during all strokes.

The problem I see with the dolphin kick we saw the male swimmers take after the turn is not only that it's not legal during the normal breaststroke but that it violates the number of full underwater strokes one is permitted before surfacing after a turn. (I can remember times when I was too deep after a turn+stroke and being enraged at myself as I almost waited to float to the top before I could initiate my next stroke.)

In my view, these rule changes serve to smear the boundaries between strokes. While that may simplify individual medley competitors, I think it hurts the sport. Times today can't be legitimately compared to times in the past, and specialty excellence is being subordinated to freestyler gorillas.

[Ohio Dem]

19. Why don't you debate your detractors?

I've seen a couple of posts here that call what you say "bullshit." I have to agree with them. Why don't you debunk what THEY say?

[Seabiscuit]

23. The server's been down

so I finally just got on again and saw all the people out their screaming "bullshit". I've already begun debunking what they've said. Everyone who's attacked me so far is full of it and is either making shit up or have no idea what they're talking about.

This isn't an anti-American thread. It's a thread about someone getting away with cheating, and the fact that the judges as a whole screwed up and reinstated him, and the B.S. spin put on it by NBC.

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[Seabiscuit]

47. You clearly didn't watch the tape carefully enough

because you left out the fact that after turning and making a first stroke with his right arm, he took another stroke with his left arm, then plunged his right arm in for a third stroke as he made the turn.

NBC showed several versions of playback. The first was an underwater view where nothing was obvious, and they commentators were talking over it too much. When they finally played back a view from above the water several times, it became very clear what happened. Even one commentator at during one of those playbacks, trying to explain the DQ, said it "should have been one smooth stroke movement." But none of them commented about what clearly was visible, that Peirsol took three strokes, while the swimmers on either side of him only took one stroke at the turn.

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[Selwynn]

29. I didn't see it, so I can't comment.. which sucks cause I'd really like to

:)

[Seabiscuit]

35. Thank you

I'm glad the subject piqued your interest. Maybe if you stay up late enough tonight you'll be able to see it all over again and pay close attention to the taped replay of "the turn".

[Kenneth ken]

36. youu sound mostly knowledgeable

to me. Unfortunately for purposes of this discussion, I don't own a tv, so can't actually comment on what may or may not have happened.

Nor am I current on the specifics of the rules. Your phrase "...take one smooth stroke with their right arm..." is probably not accurate. I doubt the rules specify which arm a swimmer strokes into the turn with, but that would be a quibble.

From the sporadic swimming I've seen in the last ten or so years, it does seem the rules allow only one stroke, what I've seen is a cross-over (on the back, reaching across the body toward the opposite shoulder and so rotating the body from face up to face down, with the crossing arm allowed to then complete the stroke from extension in front to "finish" at the waist) and then a flip turn.

More than that would seem illegal since I've not seen it occur.

Beyond that, I can't say what actually occurred, but your description of three strokes I would think illegal, if it did indeed happen. I can only wonder why meet officials would either not see it on the tape or not uphold it as a DQ if they did see it.

[Seabiscuit]

39. You're right...

The rules don't specify which arm one may take one stroke with - I spoke too soon mentioning "right arm" simply because all three swimmers in the playback footage used their right arm first once they turned over on their bellies prior to the turn. The rules don't discriminate against "lefties". Unfortunately, Peirsol was the only one of the three swimmers in the playback footage that used more than one arm stroke - he used three prior to the turn: right, left, right. The other two just used one arm - the right arm.

[geek tragedy]

41. There was only one stroke--see my post #40 for an explanation of

what exactly happened.

[Kenneth ken]

53. I looked

there's no film in your post. I'm still where I was when I started; I have to rely on what some one says :)

what was I supposed to see?

[geek tragedy]

55. "See" is a form of citation used in academic texts.

Such as "See 15 U.S.C. 305(a)."

;)

[Kenneth ken]

61. heh

I was goofin' with ya. The main point of this thread is the number of swimming strokes a particular swimmer took at a certain point in a race. The only certain way to determine that is by viewing film/tape of the race. Since I can't do that, I can't form a definite opinion.

In text format, you are neither more nor less credible than the OP.

[geek tragedy]

63. I have someone who agrees with my assessment.

My post is also based on a view of a swimmer face down taken from below him, rather than above him. The OP is basing his view on the strokes from a view above the swimmer.

In other words, my version is based on a superior angle--I had a much better view than the OP did.

[K-W]

37. Please DU'ers dont believe this tripe.

I didnt see the turn, but if indeed he did take an extra stroke, it isnt at all how you charecterize it.

What Piersol allegedly did is rather common in swimming. It was illegal, and he should have been disqualified if he did it, but it wasnt cheating, in the sense that it wasnt done on purpose to get him and advantage.

I dont know why you bring up the history of legal backstroke turns in swimming history. The motive you give for the change is laughable. Swimming has been an evolving sport for a very long time and the rules are changed and tuned all the time. To somehow connect this to Piersol is a joke. The backstroke turn he did has been the backstroke turn for a very long time.

Your post is a joke. If it is true, Piersol made a common swimming mistake and turned too soon on his backstroke. For your information, Mr. Swimming facts, kicking to the wall is also a disqualification. If he turned too soon, he fucked up, but he did what any swimmer would do and kept on swimming hoping the officials would miss it, which they sometimes do.

He lucked out on a technicality, and he isnt the first or last person to do that in competition and it had nothing whatsoever to do with his nationality. You bring up the absurd suggestion that this had something to do with the nationality of the judge. Even if there was a language problem, and that was a part of this, that isnt Piersol's fault, thats just the rules.

This isnt even the first time this year that a judge has messed up filing something and a disqualification had to be overturned. I believe it was the 100 freestyle, where a swimmer false started, there was supposed to be a swimoff for his spot between an American and another swimmer, but the judge filed the papers wrong so they reistated the swimmer who did in fact false start, keeping the American out of the semifinals. So much for your conspiricy theory. And from that it seems clear that they dont review tapes in swimming in the olympics, blowing another hole in your theory.

It sucks if the officials messed things up, but until you have some proof to back up your wild accusations, you should keep them to yourself. It seems pretty clear that this is how the rules dicate things be done, if the official doesnt follow exact procedure, the Disqualification doesnt stand. It has nothing to do with any of the unrelated things you have brought into this.

Also, a turn like that WOULDNT IMPROVE HIS SPEED. Turning too early and fudging an extra stroke does not make you faster. The man is the world record holder in the event, he didnt cheat his way to the top. If he did do an illegal turn, should have have been disqualified, yes, if it was an illegal turn. Was he cheating NO. Did the officials cheat, NO.

Geez. Maybe the first time Ive actually seen unfair anti-americanism on this forum.

[geek tragedy]

42. It's not even as alleged

Seabiscuit is imagining two strokes that never happened.

[K-W]

43. I missed the turn, I had it on the backround.

But from what I read in your other post it sounds like hes exagerating indeed. I'll keep an eye out for a clip. Frankly I trust the swimming officials to do whats right, his theory just doesnt check out. There is certainly no American conspiricy in international officiating.

[blitzen]

45. geek is right....

i just watched it 3 times....only one stroke after the turn to the stomach

[Kenneth ken]

46. I don't think it is very common

perhaps in practice, but not competition. That is what the backstroke flags are for. So that back strokers know they are coming to the turn. Typically backstrokers will count strokes in warm ups to make sure they have their turns gauged properly.

I will agree that the two extra "freestyle" strokes would probably not have much impact on a swimmer's overall time. It would probably also be offset by the micro-second "oh shit I'm not at the turn" reaction the swimmer would have on realizing his error.

But you are apparently the second person to say Piersol did take illegal strokes going into one of the turns, so he really ought to have been disqualified it would seem.

[geek tragedy]

50. Only one person who has seen the tape is saying there were illegal strokes

This poster was arguing "EVEN IF . . . "

There were no extra strokes, as Seabiscuit claims. You could bet your house on it.

[Kenneth ken]

64. pshaw

K W edited to put in the "EVEN IF..." stuff.

[geek tragedy]

65. Exactly.

We have one poster, Seabiscuit, claiming that he committed an egregious and obvious violation by taking three strokes while face down.

You have two other people, Blitzen and myself, who have seen it and can say without hesitation that there were no extra strokes--just the one.

Ask yourself why Seabiscuit is the only person on planet earth discussing extra strokes instead of kicking into the turn (which didn't happen either).

[Kenneth ken]

67. well for a few minutes there

K-W was agreeing, so Seabiscuit wasn't "the only person on planet earth" saying extra strokes were taken. Heck, (s)he wasn't even the only person on DU saying it. :D

I myself am not saying extra strokes were taken; I'm just making conversation. BY this point in the thread, it does seem as though Seabiscuit may be in the wrong.

[geek tragedy]

68. I'm sure somebody will post the video link once it's available n/t

[K-W]

51. I have swum backstroke competitively, have you?

It is a very very common mistake and a common grey area. Backstrokers count thier strokes all over the place, but you can never know for sure exactly where you strokes will put you. And its easy to misjudge and flip before you are actually at the wall.

And I tried to avoid saying he took the strokes, because I did not see the swim, I was working under the information of the original poster. I will clarify in the post.

[Seabiscuit]

60. Yes - I've swum all four strokes competitively.

I know what I'm talking about. Too bad you didn't see the taped replay. If you're also experienced in the backstroke, you'll see exactly what I saw. A clearly illegal turn, and enough time involved, and enough illegal strokes involved to infer intent.

[Kenneth ken]

66. I swam competitively

for about ten years. Backstroke, maybe 3 or 4 races. :D I really sucked at it.

I did swim quite a bit of IM though.

Nothing competetive in 20 or more years. We didn't do those roll-over turns like they do now, so we didn't misjudge and turn too soon. We misjudged and looked for the wall that wasn't there, or misjudged and smashed an arm or head or both into a wall that was much closer than it ought to have been.

All that said, for an olympic caliber swimmer to be so far off from a wall that they could fit in three full strokes where they thought they were at the turn seems highly unlikely, and so not "common" - that's a difference of what? 8-10 feet? more?

ps - I don't fault you for editing your earlier post if you didn't actually see the tape, but pre-editing, it did read as though you were agreeing there were three strokes.

[K-W]

70. Yes, three full strokes would be a pretty impressive miscalculation

historical in its error... but Im suspecting that he didnt take those strokes, I mean, three strokes? Every official in the pool would have been yelling.

[Kenneth ken]

73. yeah

I hadn't really thought of the implications until I posted that. The more I consider this from that perspective, the less inclined I am to think the three strokes happened.

It would have been much like "back stroke flag, must be time to turn" considering the rate of speed, and the distance covered per stroke and all that.

I guess my posts in sum equal "thinking out loud" and so now I have to join those who disagree with Seabiscuit's opinion, even without seeing the video.

[Seabiscuit]

59. Geesh...

Your first two paragraphs are a bit confused, so I'll respond to what I perceive your meaning to be: you appear to agree that if Peirsol did what I alleged ("allegedly did") you agree it's an illegal turn. But you conclude it wasn't "done on purpose", therefore it wasn't "cheating".

In my original post I refer to it as not only illegal but cheating for the following reasons:

1. I swam AAU for three years in high school and Varsity for four years in college, and know something about swimming and have followed the sport every four years in the Olympics. During one fifty meter breaststroke race I was leading the pack at the turn and in a fraction of a second at the wall unintentionally did a freestyle turn instead of a breaststroke turn. I won the race by over a body length but was disqualified for an illegal turn. My coach and teammates were all over me saying I had the race won, why did I make that illegal turn? All I could say is I didn't know why, it just happened that way. I'd never done that before in a race, and never did it since. That was a clear case of an unintentional turn that was illegal but not cheating.

2. As I explained in my original post, it was clear from the tape that Peirsol didn't get a good look at the wall as he was approaching and turned to his left and onto his belly before he should have, and that his right arm stroke alone would not allow him to turn close enough to the wall to kick off. As a result, he had be conscious of that fact and the fact that if he merely kicked his way to the wall and did a flip turn without using his arm again, he'd lose valuable time and not get an effective turn and kick off the wall. Therefore when he chose to use his left arm for a second freestyle stroke, and then his right arm again for the turn stroke he had to know what he was doing, and he had to be conscious of the fact that what he was doing was illegal. A clear case of intent. Therefore the word "cheating" is fully justified.

The rest of your post is pure unintellible hogwash, especially the entirely uncalled-for claim that what I'm saying (which is merely based on what I clearly saw and what I know about the sport as an experienced swimmer) constitutes "unfair anti-Americanism."

This is a free forum - why should I keep my thoughts to myself when I witnessed the evidence myself - the multiple taped replays of the turn
in question. Are you against free speech? Isn't that anti-American?

[K-W]

69. Im sorry, your just wrong, and arent as qualified as you think.

1. OK

2. He didnt get any look at the wall, he was on his back, what on earth are you talking about? Even if he turned too early and tried to fudge his way to the wall, that wouldnt give him an advantage. You could have swam the atlantic ocean for all I care, you are just wrong.

Im still waiting to see if they show the turn again on NBC so I can know what I already suspect from the other posters, that you just plum saw it wrong. So far you are the only person anywhere that talks about extra strokes. All the articles online say that the official complained about extra kicks. Meanwhile the officials on the pool deck, who know the rules ten million times better than you say it was fine.

Your only response to that is some vague claim about american judges and US athletes that makes no sense if you have any idea how these events are officiated.

Alot of people swam in college, alot of people swam AAU and high school, it doesnt make you a swimming expert. Meanwhile you blew off the one person on this thread who actually is a swimming expert, a certified stroke judge who told you in no uncertain terms that the turn was legal.

You are allowed to say whatever you want, and I have every right to ask you to keep your wild claims to yourself.

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[K-W]

49. You didnt even get the judges complaint right :p

The judge's complaint was that he kicked into the turn, which, from what I can tell is legal.

This entire thread is a joke.

[Seabiscuit]

62. NBC's coverage

didn't even say what the judge's complaint was. It gave three versions of why the judge's DQ was overturned, that's all. I've already covered all three of those versions above, but I never said anything about what the judge's complaint was, since NBC never mentioned it.

So your post is the joke.

[K-W]

71. Why dont you do a little reading.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer04/swimming/columns/story?id=1863306

"The official claimed Peirsol had flipped over onto his stomach in order to make the turn at the 100-meter mark, but instead of gliding to the wall with his limbs still, he continued with his flutter kick. An illegal move"

[geek tragedy]

72. I posted the video link in a separate thread (so it wouldn't get lost)

I think Seabiscuit has taken enough of a beating for one thread. Time to invoke the "mercy rule."

:toast:

[Speed8098]

85. "So your post is the joke."

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are wrong.

This post reminds me of the talking heads sayiing * beat Gore in the debates in 2000. Didn't happen.
Nor was there any cheating last night.

[Junkdrawer]

90. There will be a hearing, medal could be recalled...

...

On a farcical evening, the American appeal was upheld on a technicality. Reasons for disqualification have to be submitted by the race referee in writing, in clear English. But the referee in question, Woon Sui Kut of Singapore, submitted a piece of paper to Fina, swimming's world governing body, that Fina said provided inadequate details that were "not in the working language of Fina".

In effect, Woon's decision to disqualify Peirsol was ruled inadmissible because his writing could not be understood. The original places were re-instated, with Peirsol, the world record holder, taking gold ahead of Austria's Markus Rogan and Romania's Razvan Florea.

Great Britain and Austria both lodged formal appeals to Fina last night and a hearing is expected today. The medals for the race were presented last night but could be recalled.

...


http://sport.independent.co.uk/olympics/story.jsp?story=553256

[geek tragedy]

98. Wishful thinking by the Brits.

No violation of the rule happened.

[Junkdrawer]

99. So they won't hold a hearing?

:shrug:

[geek tragedy]

100. I don't know what they would discuss

The swimming folks have determined that there was no violation of the rules. They said flat out that the judge did not provide a reason under the Rules for DQ'ing the swimmer.

Appeals usually deal with procedural fairness. That was met here--a bad call by the judge got overturned.

[Junkdrawer]

101. I'll bet there's a hearing...

"In effect, Woon's decision to disqualify Peirsol was ruled inadmissible because his writing could not be understood."

Whether any medals are changed is another question, but the videos will be reviewed.

[geek tragedy]

103. According to the Times-UK (a biased source)

the reasoning for the DQ they provided was:

<snip>
But I have since managed to see the form, and I can understand why Fina found itself in difficulties. Mikhailov has written, under the reason for disqualification, just seven letters: an S, a kind of funny F, a big sweeping L, followed by I D I I. It is probably an abbreviation for something, but it is totally unintelligible.
<snip>
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,15809-1225372,00.html

The tape won't help the Brits--he does exactly the same thing as the swimmers on either side of him did.

[0rganism]

76. Did he cheat or just screw up?

Seems like he could have boned the turn without intentionally taking extra arm strokes. So he could have been dq'd without trying to cheat...

I had no idea y'all were so anal about the turns. I thought the "legal" way was technically the most effective way to do it, that's why everyone did it the same. But you say it has to be that way? Freaky.

[K-W]

77. It seems he didnt cheat or screw up.

One of the officials screwed up.

[onebigbadwulf]

79. Every olympics it's gonna be something...

last winter it was ice skating, this year it's swimming. Life goes on.

[Vladimir]

89. Well from the Eurosport coverage

it seemed clear that the complaint was that he kicked against the wall on the turn and that they originally DQFd him for that. And as I understand, he was reinstated because it was shown that the judging was inconsistant with other cases where similar matters were allowed to stand.

It feels kind of weird, me defending an American competitor, but the kid didn't do anything wrong IMO.

[LeftHander]

91. Saw it thought two of his turns looked funny....

But watching the replay of the final turn it did not appear to be bad. A little long but not illegal.

I thought the first turn was funny....because me a non competive swimmer noticed something different...

However...rules change a athletes will push it to the limit I am sure they will review the video and make the proper decision.

[Kellanved]

92. It is sad that so many medals are awarded by judges (for example riding)

Another example is the hassle around the riding competition:


--snip
There is a lot at stake here,” Yogi Breisner, the Britain team manager, said. “If it is decided that Bettina committed an infringement by crossing the start line twice and is given the appropriate time penalties, Leslie (Law) would get the individual gold, Pippa (Funnell) the bronze and the team the silver. That’s a real haul of medals and while you can feel extremely sorry for Bettina, you can also feel extremely sorry for our guys, who may not have got the medals they deserve.”

Didier Courreges, a member of the France team that would win the nation’s first gold medals in the discipline if Hoy’s time faults were reinstated, backed Breisner. “We want to get this straight,” Courreges said. “We all admire and respect Bettina’s performance but want to appeal about a rule which has not been applied. What has happened means that we can cross the start line again and again without penalties. We are not happy with the final results and feel it’s not too difficult to understand why.”

...
When the initial objection to Hoy’s round was lodged immediately after the team showjumping on Wednesday, the three-member ground jury, which included Angela Tucker, the British judge, replayed the video of Hoy’s round, saw that an infringement had taken place and added 14 time penalties to her score, using a printed back-up timing system as evidence. Germany dropped to fourth place in the team contest and Hoy to seventh individually.

...
However, Hugh Thomas, a British member of the appeal committee that overruled the ground jury, took a different view. “There were two mistakes made at the start,” he said. “First, the clock was restarted when it shouldn’t have been, and then there was no sign for Bettina when she looked at the clock that her round had started, so she circled again. When a mistake is made by the management, we have to be sure that the athlete does not suffer.”

...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,10520-1223967,00.html

[malachibk]

95. He didn't cheat

There was no stalling on his stomach. Have you seen the replays? The judge didn't know what he was talking about.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

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[kerry-is-my-prez]

104. Used to be a backstroker- Not sure if I agree with you.

Although I'm from the caveman era where we did the old flip turns. I saw the slo-mo and it didn't look like he "screwed up."

99% of the time, swimmers are not mindfully "cheating." People are thrashing through the water frantically - going as fast as they can. They are swimming 25 yards in 15 seconds. You are not aware of every little movement or stroke that you're taking.

I don't know of a backstroker or breastroker that hasn't been dq'd for something at least a few times for something that they didn't even know that they did. A freestyler would have no idea of how easy it is to make some little movement that is judged as illegal because they are on their stomach the whole time and cannot get dq'd for turning onto their backs. In backstroke you can be dq'd if it looks like you turn too much onto your stomach for even a split second - in freestyle - it doesn't matter. You can be dq'd in breaststroke if you do an illegal kick - in freestyle there is no illegal kick - pretty much anything goes. You also used to get dq'd if your head went under the water in breastroke.

I've been dq'd about 3 times for things that I had NO concept I was doing: "illegal kick during breastroke," "putting my head under water during breastroke." Was I purposefully doing this or did I even KNOW I was doing it? hell no.

I agree that they shouldn't be doing those new flips - it is a recipe for disaster. I'm surprised that people aren't constantly being dq'd with those turns. It would be really tough NOT to turn over too soon with those turns. And what about the old records that were in place from BEFORE they did the turns? It would tick me off if I had the old record and all of a sudden it got decimated because of some new goofy thing they were doing.

I hope they are "keeping" the old records - along with the new.

[JudgeSmales]

106. Personally I could care less.

I hope he did cheat. And I hope he gets away with it. Ha. Now flame away if that is what you do.

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

107. that turn was perfectly legal

and I used to be a swimmer so I know where I'm coming from. The call was "non-continuous motion" on the turn, which would mean he stopped, took an extra stroke or lifted his head way out of the water...which he didn't. it appeared that the official over-reacted to a kick coming into the turn...which has been legal for 15 years.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moderator]

112. Locking........

From DU rules:

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