Is it time for Revolution in Mexico?

[Karmadillo]

Should the poor continue to tolerate the current system on the grounds it might one day work to their benefit? Or should they consider Revolution on the theory the PAN/PRI block will continue to serve a narrow ruling elite at the expense of the rest of the country?

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/aug2004/mexi-a21.shtml

<edit>

In 1994, the top 10 percent of families received over 41 percent of the country’s income, while the bottom 10 percent received 1.01 percent, one of most unequal distributions of income in Latin America. (In 1982, those figures were 32.8 percent and 1.72 percent). <8>

Between 1984 and 1992, the bottom 80 percent of households saw their share of income drop from 50.5 to 45.6 percent of total income. More recent statistics indicate that conditions have worsened.

Poverty levels, particularly in the southern states of Mexico, increased brutally between 1992, and 1996. <9> Twenty percent of the population is in extreme poverty, unable to obtain the 2,100 calories that are required to meet minimal nutritional standards; 40 percent is below the official poverty line. During the first two years of Fox’s administration, the number of poor increased by 2 million (from 14.8 to 16.8 million), a growth rate five times the rate of population growth. <10>

The 524,000 jobs created each year since 1993 are less than one third the number of new jobs Mexico needs to keep up with the increase in the labor force. Each year, over one million entrants into the labor market find no positions.

These figures add up to an economic catastrophe, especially in rural areas of the southern states—a crisis that every year forces thousands of unemployed young people to seek work in Mexico City or the United States.

Far from addressing this social emergency, the PRI and PAN have formed a bloc in the Mexican congress to eliminate social security and privatize public health services.

[Xipe Totec]

1. Nope, It's a Little Early Still

September 16 1810, Mexican Independence

November 20 1910, Mexican Revolution

Check back sometime in late 2010. :eyes:

[JanMichael]

2. I wonder how the US would react to that?

How would California function? How would the Maquiladoras keep polluting Texas for the benefit of the top 1% of Americans?

Oh the horror;-)

[murray hill farm]

3. Ohhhhh Pleaseeeee!!!

Come on down and have a real look at Mexico! Privatized public health????? It works so well for the poor in the USA ..look around your own country and see how well that works before you make blatant claims about what is good for another countries poor. All Mexicans have free medical care now...even the cats and dogs..can be taken to free clinics. Try that in the USA!!! You see only the propaganda from American press that wants a revolution here in Mexico so that not only the "health care" can be privitized..but ...now hear this..that the nationally owned oil will be privatized so that the American can control it...Its about the oil....and that is all it is about. We have strong unions here in Mexico for the workers..very strong. Before you talk about the poverty in Mexico, come down and have a real look around. You might see that the pictures you see in the news, etc. about Mexico are only what they, in the USA want you to see of poverty along the borders....or just outside of tourist towns like Cancun that are there to feed the grotesque tastes of the American tourists who come to Cancun each year to stay in the "hotel zone" where you never see anything that would that would lead you to believe you were not in Miami. There is a large middle class in Mexico, but to see it, you would have to look beyond the crap you have been fed by the American media.

[enfield collector]

5. I'm glad that life is so good in Mexico, but why are so many of your

citizens risking their lives coming to the USA? we have hundreds killed every year walking across the desert in Arizona. If life is like you say it is why would they want to leave? I believe the way for America to solve the illegal immigration problem is to make Mexico strong so that the people won't have to come to America.
Of course that probably won't happen because some here need a pool of cheap and compliant labor which the illegals provide.

[murray hill farm]

6. Mexicans are strong...dont want to come to USA

This myth that the USA is the land of mild and honey..and that going to the USA is the only way to get a good job and send back money to their families in Mexico is one that has generation after generation been perpetuated by the USA, not by Mexico. It has resulted in the development of the large border towns..and in generation after generation of families who have bought into that life and to the myth. It however is not Mexico...and is not good for Mexicans and not how most Mexican live or believe. President Fox will not privatize Mexico's Oil...and that is the strong will of the people that he not. The presidential election here will be in 2006..it is the hope in the USA that there will be such a revolution..one the USA can support with much money and propaganda..to put into office one who will be agreeable to privatizing the oil so that the USA then can control Mexico's oil...that is why you here your president beginning to talk about the need to develop the middle class in Mexico...what he is really talking about is the privatization of Mexico's oil.

[sadiesworld]

7. Fascinating.

You trust Fox? I always associated him with the dark side.

[murray hill farm]

8. ha! Take off the blinders!

Cant blame you! Maybe you bought the myth as well! It is prevelant in the USA! Mexico is corrupt...starving people living in shacks..all wanting to get into the USA and the American dream..make that American nightmare, etc....all leaders have some darkside to them...all humans have a darkside...it perhaps is politicall advantagous for some to concentrate and exagerate the darkside...for their own political advantage...or to out and out lie...as is happening now in the USA regarding the swift boat liers?

[sadiesworld]

9. So Fox is NOT in favor of further privatization, deregulation

and dismantling of social programs?

[murray hill farm]

11. privatization

Fox is NOT in favor of privatizing Mexicos oil....and that is what causes the USA to paint the picture of him as a devil...Mexico has the third largest supply of oil outside of OPEC...and so close to the USA....the USA wants control of the OIL...it is all about the OIL.

[sadiesworld]

12. "it is all about the OIL"

Isn't it always?

Perhaps the Fox/Bush "friendship" is not as it appears?

Thanks for the insight and forgive my ignorance...it is difficult to find one's way through the media disinformation maze.

[CityZen-X]

10. Mexico's WMD's?

Your points are well stated. I keep wondering when this Bu$h*t junta will start to demonize Fox, declare it as a terrorist state, and claim that there are WMD controlled by the radical fundamentalist catholics.
Then the Commander & Chimp and his fascist corporate monkey boy's can attack Mexico and liberate it from it OIL!

[Mara Steele]

4. Thanks for the article!

Need to keep up w/Mexican politics, too!

:hi:

[Bridget Burke]

13. Even the World Socialist Web Site was not recommending revolution.

It was tried in 1910-1920--a bloody conflict that became more of a civil war, ending with the PRI in charge. Another revolution would not make the immigrant-haters happy, since the last one drove many Mexicans north of the border. The linked article points out how many of the Mexican government's policies are affected by U S government policies. Let's get our own house in order--domestically & diplomatically--before blithely suggesting war to the South.

Here's a section of José Clemente Orozco's great mural in Guadalajara's Palacio de Gobierno. The muralist had a less rosy view of the power of revolution than the more famous Diego Rivera. Of course, he actually lived in Mexico for most of that bloody decade while Diego was studying cubism in Paris.

[Baja Margie]

16. Ouch !

Truthfully, Orozco and Rivera were influenced by Jose Posada and eventually worked together. Rivera did have a powerful influence on socialist movements, including those of Presidente Cardenas:

http://www.yale.edu/ynhi/curriculum/units/1999/2/99.02.06.x.html

http:/

Again, here is an invaluable source for news from Mexico, these articles are en ingles and will help Americans grasp the situation down here better:

http://frontera.nmsu.edu

Mexexpat, you're right on the money. No revolution, not enough social dissatisfaction, and changes are already being made from within, slowly.However, even Fox acknowledges the corruption aspect, even though he is now, a lame duck and since his party never received a clear majority in Congress, very little was accomplished under him. What a shame.

If you in the States really want to help out, contact agencies and donate to provide higher education for Secondaria and University, Also, Habitat for Humanity frequently has programs where you can help build housing for the very poor. Jimmy Carter is no dummy, he realizes that a strong Mexico is one which at the lowest levels of poverty, people have a home to live in and hope for the future.


Oops, that first Url didn't go through.

Try http:www.yale.edu/ynhi/curriculum/units/1999/2/99.02.06.x.html

And, here's even a better one:

http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Mll/Spanish/Projects/Trejo-Zacarias/english.htm


Just another thought, for those of you who want to invest in Mexico, do it. You currently receive 9% on a savings account here.

[Xipe Totec]

17. Uh, That's Miguel Hidalgo in the Painting

A Caudillo of the war of independence of 1810, not the Revolution of 1910.

[Bridget Burke]

28. Thanks, I recognize Padre Hidalgo

The mural wraps around the main staircase at the Palacio de Gobierno, where Hidalgo proclaimed the end of slavery in Mexico back in 1810. Because of its shape, full reproductions are difficult. When staying at the Hotel Frances, just across the street, I spent a fair amount of time with the mural.

I believe it was done in the 1930's. To one side as you ascend are the forces of modern life, figures emblazoned with swastikas, hammers & sickles--and dollar signs. To the other are the forces of the old Church. Surrounding Hidalgo are ranks of workers--mostly dead or dying, pierced with blades. At the top of the stairs, opposite Hidalgo, is a faint vision of a happier world. But it seems very distant & separated by so much blood & fire.

Diego Rivera was a very fine artist & another of the great muralistas. In his works, the Worker's Paradise seems just around the corner--a bit more cheerful than Orozco's works, whether by experience or temperament.

[Xipe Totec]

31. Stop, You're Making Me Jealous!

;(

I haven't been to the DF in more than two decades. But I remember the murals...

[Cleita]

14. Having lived in South America at a time when democracies

could be counted on one hand, dictatorships and banana republics reigned supreme, and revolutions happened on a daily basis somewhere on the continent, I would say no. Revolutionaries are poorly equipped and are ususally starved out and killed in the end. The same old ruling class of elites that rotates into power and nothing changes.

It is grass roots politicing that gets rid of the tyrants and the ruling class. If you want change in Mexico, the people will have to do it from within. I have discovered working with restaurant workers in Los Angeles, that there is a high rate of illiteracy from the peasant class because they often have to go to work sometimes as young as seven years of age.

Starvation wages and illiteracy keep the poor masses where they are and the ruling elites in power. It is a little more complicated than this but this is putting it in a nutshell.

[murray hill farm]

15. Mexico is tyrants, ruling class and poor masses????

Where do you get this crap...oh yeah...i forgot the American media...ha!! A few weeks..or more ago, there was a thread here on how horrible it was when an American went on vacation to Mexico and saw children as young as 7 working in a store here....ahahahaha! OK..this is how it works. School children...after school...which starts in Mexico at age 3, by the way...earn spending money..by packing up your purchases at the grocery stores..and even the wall-marts and Coscos that are here...these are not paid positions, but the kids get tips..and tips are given by everyone..it is part of the culture...and all the kids want to get such a position in a store. It is not exploitation! These kids benefit from these "jobs" and wish they all could have such a "job"...its spending money..just like the kid who might rake your leaves or such in the USA. The thing is that people see what reinforces their present perception..and that perception is continuously perpetuated by those in the USA who want you to believe what is not true here in Mexico. Uneducated? Illiterate? We have schools here! We have Universities? WE have Medical schools...we have educated children and adults. Look beyond the lies that you have been told about Mexico.

[shrike]

18. I visited Mexico this year and was pleasantly surprised

I'd like to go back and even have contemplated moving there one day, particularly if Shrub gets back into office.

I was Puerto Vallarta and Guadalajara and never got the sense that people were desperate. The Mexican people work very hard -- I could see that, day in and day out, but in some ways they've got better priorities than we do here. On Sunday afternoon everyone is outside, visiting in the squares, enjoying fiestas, actually communicating with each other. The neighborhood Catholic church was so full that people were actually sitting outside on the steps to hear mass. The children we saw were very clean and well-cared for.

I spoke with some of the locals and heard about the country's problems -- and they are many. But any country where the majority of population hates Bush can't be all bad.

[Baja Margie]

20. Yes,

They cannot stand him. My friends were so upset when the election was stolen from Gore. " No like Bush, he mean and war !!" I had to crack up when Mario said that to me, and this was just a poor worker guy from Maneadero.


Puerto Vallarta, heh, if you get a chance, check out Tia Adriannas place north of Vallarta in the town of Sayulita, really special and away from all the tourists, and a surf spot.

[shrike]

25. Thanks for the suggestion. We didn't care for Puerta Vallarta -- too

many tourists and too many timeshare salesmen. But I enjoyed the snorkeling and the fishing was great -- hubby caught three tuna and two mackerel, and we got to see a huge school of dolphins and a sea turtle. Tia Andrannas and Sayulita, sounds like our kind of place.

[Baja Margie]

29. Hi, sorry, I had logged out,

Rent a car in Vallarta or you can take the bus, it is up the coast about 20 miles. I'll look around and see if I can come up with their number for you. Not the best snorkeling, but very quiet and you really feel you are in Mex. Well, you are. Fresh fish catches daily, served on the little cafe right on the beach.

Try further south, also, Puerto Escondido and a bit below that. You would have to make a couple flights, one to Mex City, and then another, I think. We drove it, so I might be wrong about those flights. If you don't want to go that far, try Yelapa just south of PV.

[shrike]

33. More ideas. Thanks

I'll have an easier time luring the husband if I tell him he gets to fish. He loves small towns, anyway, is not a city person. I don't care about the snorkeling; I've snorkeled on the Barrier Reef and would be hard-pressed to find a better place.

[Zorra]

34. I've lived in Mexico for over 3 years, and I love it here.

I've traveled all over the country, and think your description is pretty accurate. Many people are very poor, but not desperate, although there is some desperation - but maybe less than there is in the US.

One thing I really enjoy is the absence of feeling like I am living in a police state, like the US makes me feel. There is in many ways more personal freedom and more civil liberty than there is in the US.

Mexican folks are really nice, and have been really good to me. I live in a rural area, a mile and a half from a small village. Unfortunately, there are quite a few republican ex-patriate ugly Americans living in Mexico. They are generally rude, classless, and obnoxious, and often treat the Mexican people like a lower class of human being, because they think Americans are superior to everyone else. They really give gringos a bad name. Sometimes, alas, Mexicans will fleece them because of their arrogance. I have often been pleasantly surprised at times at finding that a rude, drunken republican has paid for my drinks at the local cantina without knowing it. I ask for "mi cuenta" and find that I only owe $2 for 4 drinks. LOL. I look at the cantinero, and we say nothing, just nod and smile at each other. I always leave a good tip. Fortunately, these ugly Americans only suspect they are getting fleeced, and sometimes it pisses them off, but they are never quite sure if they got fleeced or not. But in general, if you are a respectful and polite person, most folks here will go out of their way to help you. But it can be very different if you are in a big time tourist area.

And you are right - the people here pretty much universally detest Bu$h. In fact, I have never met a Mexican that said they liked him.

[Baja Margie]

35. Zorra

I hope you get this, those GOP dummies are the majority down here, it is so embarrassing. They are horrible, your depiction is accurate. They are so selfish. Yuck. I wish more Demos would move down here, alas, we are few and far between. You should hear them rant over on www.baja.net.com, on second thought, it might turn your stomach, Bajablackie and his group. Talk to you later, dinner's on.
Nice to hear from someone who is like minded, maybe we'll bump into each other on la playa.

[Cleita]

21. I understand that there are educated wealthy and middle class

Mexicans who enjoy the same services and goods that Americans do. I did work in the restaurant industry in Los Angeles doing payroll in the past and because I am Spanish speaking I was usually the person who got to deal with the workers, so I got to meet a lot of the faceless mostly teenagers from south of the border (not all were Mexicans) and hear their stories.

Ask yourself this question. Why are Central Americans so willing to work for minimum wage and even less if things are so good in their homeland? Why would teenagers who should be in high school, busing tables, cooking and taking care of other people's children for a pittance, and usually a hefty dose of abuse from other Americans who resent their being here?

Also, making children work for tips even if it is the culture is plainly wrong anyway you look at it. You know I got into a pretty big fight with my Chilean mother who refused to look at the injustices heaped on the underclass in her native Chile. It caused a rift between us for many years, but she had no problem hiring teenage maids and then throwing them out when they got pregnant. But it was part of the culture as you say.

We also have our problems here. While people cruise around in their SUVs and live in their McMansions, there is a growing underbelly of very poor people and a disappearing middle class. If this keeps up maybe Mexico might start looking better.

I didn't mean to offend, but the big illegal alien debate starts with those people who are so desperate, they must come here to do better. As one of the busboys once told me, "here I earn $3.75 an hour. Back home I earned 75 cents a day. I would rather be home than here though if my family didn't need me to send money to them." So you figure it out.

[murray hill farm]

19. What is "Poor" anyway? What is "middle class"?

It depends on your point of reference. If poor is living in a two room house..and you do..then you are poor. If middle class means that you live you live in a gated community and have two cars..and you do...then you are middle class. It depends on what ruler you use to define an economic class. Now if you live in that gated community of four bedrooms and three baths..and your yards are vacuumed clean..and god forbid anyone ever would actually hang out clothes on a line..forbidden, of course...too "poor" looking..then outside of your perceived view of "middle class" picture will look like poor to you. If you come to Mexico....u will be amazed at the "poverty" that you encounter...and you will define the two bedroom house...and those who live in it as "everyone living in poverty"..everywhere you look. And if middle class is defined also as owning a car or two or three....then all of us Mexicans are living in poverty....ha! You all should take a lesson from us down here...we live the real American dream here...not the dream that is the totally dependent on vehicles to even get to a store to buy food...or the need to live in huge compounds of gated subdivisions in order to feel that we are doing OK in the world..ok personally and emotionally and economically..whenever i do visit the USA, it is now so uncomfortable for me...that life race, that rush to just stay where one is and to keep from the terror of loosing an inch of status when it comes to that life of the middle class status. In every country there are the poor...and in the USA and every other country there are people so poor and without jobs and without even the basics of life..or the hope of life getting better..and these people we should do everything in our power to help in any way we can..this is real...we need to look hard at it..and do whatever it takes to end this kind of poverty in the world..and in our home countries. But "poor" is not always what it appears to be when you measure it by the yardstick of your own countries standard...and by the way...u gated community folks are missing a lot...what a wonderful thing it is to hang out your clothes to dry..to see it..so pretty to see...so clean and smell so good when you take them down..no one has a dryer....but hey...poverty, you know! hahahahaha!!

[Cleita]

22. Poor in my estimation is when

your children have to quit school to go to work to help the family, when they have to work after school to help the family, when they don't have access to medical care and here in the good old USA, there are 44 million uninsured Americans who don't have access to health care. They are poor even if they are working. Many of our working poor don't even have homes or apartments but live in shelters or in their cars.

So see I can look at my country and criticize and the sooner Mexicans and other Hispanics open their eyes to the injustices in their countries instead of calling them cultural and the way things have been always done, the better our world will be. I think all those happy campensinos have a different story to tell than the one you are telling.

[murray hill farm]

24. Did I say there were no injustices..that mexicans are all happy as clams?

do 100% of Mexicans see exactly as i see..have the same opinion? Every human being has their own "story" to tell. Did i say that my head is in the sand..or that we ignore and just accept like sheep, that things need to evolve to a better "place"? Nope!! I did not say those things. What i did say is that there is a prejudiced view of just how many americans view Mexico. You misunderstand..that because i have an opinion..you must think that i think it is the only opinion to have and that i am inflicting my opinion on you and that i must be either right or wrong...and that you must be either right or wrong. I am telling you my story...my view and what i see here in Mexico. You have every right to not believe me...and to think i am full of crap...if you wish. Just my humble opinion and view.

[Ms. Clio]

26. I think you make a lot of valid points, especially about class and culture

Mexican voices here are all too few--thanks for your perspective.

[TahitiNut]

23. One-sixth of all Mexican citizens live (and work) in the US.

In Mexico, the richest 10% have 41.7% of the income.
In the US, the richest 10% have 30.5% of the income.
In Canada, the richest 10% have 23.8% of the income.
(Lower is "better.")


In Mexico, the 1998 Gini index was 53.1.
In the US, the 1997 Gini index was 40.8. (It's around 45 now.)
In Canada, the 1994 Gini index was 31.5. (It's below 30 now.)
(Lower is "better.")


In Mexico, the poorest 10% have 1.3% of the income.
In the US, the poorest 10% have 1.8% of the income.
In Canada, the poorest 10% have 2.8% of the income.
(Higher is "better.")


All three countries have oil.
All three countries have indigenous peoples.
Maybe it's the climate?
:eyes:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_dis_of_fam_inc_gin_ind&id=NAM&id=SAM


On edit - more ...

In Mexico, the infant mortality rate is 2.542%.
In the US, the infant mortality rate is 0.669%.
In Canada, the infant mortality rate is 0.495%.
(Lower is "better.")

In Mexico, the life expectancy is 72.3 years.
In the US, the life expectancy is 77.1 years.
In Canada, the life expectancy is 79.8 years.
(Higher is "better.")

[Ms. Clio]

27. That was exactly what I was wondering--thanks for those figures

Sounds like the revolution is needed in the U.S., instead, so we can be more like Canada!

[Baja Margie]

30. I'll

drink to that.


:toast:

[Lori Price CLG]

32. Not sure, but I *know* it's time for Revolution here if

Bush steals the election, again.

Lori Price
http://www.legitgov.org/

[Baja Margie]

36. Vamanos Amigos !