And yet, Jonathan Pollard, and perhaps this new "mole" transferred info

[question everything]

to a country considered friendly, an alley. And Pollard is rotting in jail with life sentence, the same as Ames who spied for a declared enemy, whose actions actually caused the executions of U.S. moles in the Soviet Union.

[still_one]

1. The point is that this administration is responsible

[lil-petunia]

2. The Sauds provide us with oil. How does Israel serve our

our goals?
The Israelis and their policies saddle us with the collective hatred of most muslims.
If anyone in the US dares criticize Israeli policy or even suggest a more even handed approach, their AIPAC dogs go out in force, with threats and worse. That very over-protective, defensive offense tends to backfire after some time - and after Pollard, we came close to reaching it.

This may be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

I am all for democracies. I am all for peace in the muddle east. But, hand holding and turning a blind eye to Israel's many faults is not the way to peace.

As to their denial that any spying has ever taken place against this administration? Hah. THey still deny that they received any of Pollard's top secret stuff at the same time as they threaten and cajole us to release him into their custody. Of Course they spy on us. Plus, several well-known congressmen and senators are known for their close ties and their being conduits of info, support and heads-up when some adverse policy might be coming down the road. they are also great apologists when Israel commits brutal attacks on palestian children and women.


Worst of all, the maniac Tom DeLay is not the only one looking for rapture.

[question everything]

8. As long as the U.S. considered the Soviet Union and its allies

and enemy, Israel served our goal by holding the front in the Middle East. When a Soviet MIG fighter plane defected to Israel, U.S. intelligence officers were invited to check the machine.

"The Sauds provide us with oil. How does Israel serve our
our goals?"


"The Israelis and their policies saddle us with the collective hatred of most muslims."

Oh, please, you don't really believe this, do you? In 1990 Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait (torn from Iraq by Churchill to prevent it from having too much control over oil fields there). The U.S. liberated Kuwait and kept troops in Saudi Arabia. Osama bin Laden considered the presence of infidel in the holy country as a cause for his jihad. How, exactly, is Israel part of this?

I know that we are not supposed to use this forum for the Israeli - Palestinian debate. I was just talking about relativism. Our penal system is supposed to fit the punishment to the crime. I don't know about this new spy but when one compares Pollard - who has nothing to do with this war - to Ames and to others from the Soviet Union and from Egypt who were traded back to their countries, one has to wonder.

[atreides1]

3. An Ally

Who spies on you is a potential enemy, an ally who spies on you to affect policy that results in the deaths of US military personnel and civilians is an enemy.

At least with a declared enemy I would know who I'm fighting, how do you address the same problem with someone who is supposed to be your friend.

For me it's simple, that friend is now to be watched, and held at arms length until they earn the trust they once had.

Yes Ames may have been responsible for the deaths of covert agents working for the US, but if this new spy did affect US policy toward
Iraq then he/she is responsible for the deaths of US troops, and for me that's even worse then what Ames did.

A spy is a spy, there is no difference. Pollard is rotting in jail for spying, the same as Ames, they both betrayed a trust, and are being punished for it. There is no difference, both betrayed this country, one for money the other for love of Israel. The reasons don't matter, betrayal is still betrayal.

And as far as I'm concerned both Ames and Pollard can rot, if it was up to me both would have been executed.

[question everything]

6. Yet, when a former Soviet Union spy was caught, and an Egyptian

they were "traded" back to their countries for exchange of Americans.

Does Israel need to "detain" a U.S. spy - and we are not kidding ourselves, right? there are U.S. citizens spying in Israel - to affect an exchange?

I do not justify any of this and they should be punished. I was just wondering, again, about the measures taken against the Soviet and the Egyptian spies - do not remember their names - and against Pollard.

I seem to remember that for Casper Weinberg it was almost a personal vendetta.

[truth2power]

4. Uh....

Are you saying they should get a pass for giving classified info. to the Likudists? Sorry, they should all rot in prison.

I'm sick of the US govt. looking like a wholly owned subsidiary of the Likud. Nearly 1000 American soldiers killed; tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians killed and it looks like the RWers in the Israeli govt. had a hand in this? Yeah...speaking of actions causing deaths of innocent people.

[question everything]

7. If Israel has had that much influence over the policies

of an independent country like the U.S. then something is really strange. We found so many instances where Bush wanted to go to Iraq immediately after 9/11 that blaming this on one person or, worse, on a foreign government is too simplistic, in my opinion, and too easy solution to a complex problem.

Yeah, I can see Bush standing at the GOP convention and hitting his chest and crying and saying: it is all Sharon's fault.

[htuttle]

5. Much of the information Pollard passed to Israel...

...was traded by Israel to the Soviet Union in exchange for allowing more emigration, IIRC.

It's rarely harmless when any country spies on another -- even an 'ally'.