The governments primary role is:

[Selwynn]

Poll question: The governments primary role is:

The government's primary role is to regulate industry and guarantee basic living standards to its citizens.

[neverborn]

1. Strongly disagree.

[FlaIndie]

2. There is only one main goal

To protect the rights of its citizens. That is what the founders wanted.

It isn't to build roads or schools, or to build the military, though we'd better damn hope it keeps doing all that.

[Selwynn]

4. So how is that not a "role" if we all better hope they keep doing it?

[Selwynn]

3. For fucks sake people, please say WHY

or else what the hell is the point of a discussion board

[Booster]

8. Made me laugh outloud.

[Selwynn]

11. ? What is so outrageous about asking for actual reasoning?

[HawkerHurricane]

5. Protection from bullies;.

Whether those bullies be foriegn soldiers, companies running amok, murderers and thieves, it doesn't matter. Governments first formed to keep bullies from beating you up and taking your stuff.

[proud patriot]

9. I second this

[eridani]

6. Maintaining public infrastructure

The stuff that can't be readily done for profit and/or requires collective expenditure.

[bvar22]

7. To protect the COMMONWEALTH of the citizens.

All of the above plus more.

[Kanary]

10. I can't remember the wording, but I think the first option is in the

constitution.

Guess I need to do a Byrd, and carry a pocket constitution with me. :)

Kanary

[MissMarple]

12. Preamble coming right up.

Preamble to the Constitution.


We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

[hang a left]

13. Yeah!

What they said. Those framers really knew how to "get down."

[Selwynn]

14. I believe the statement I gave is what the constitution stands for.

promoting general welfare is the explicit statement of "guarantee standard of life to its citizens" and the healthy regulation (what I'd like to call healthy checks and balances) of industry is essential to fulfilling that guarantee.

[hang a left]

15. And I also agree with you Selwynn.

That is why I took door number 1. I strongly agree.

[MissMarple]

16. It's all in there!

:bounce: After a fashion, and of course, up to some interpretation. However, I think we are on the same page.

Some view it as trying to even out the luck that many of us are born with, whether that is family connections, wealth, good looks, intelligence, savvy, whatever. The least fortunate among us have something to contribute to our common good and we should share our largess, we owe because we belong, because we have benefited from our community of citizens in this democratic republic. We are strong because we stand together, because we take care of each other, we respect each other.

And that luck thing is from John Rawls, "A Theory of Justice". Sometimes I read above my ability.

[neverborn]

17. That's YOUR definition.

Someone could say that "Since non-whites are responsible for a lot of crime, general welfare of the people demands they must die."

General welfare is not a justification for socialism. Government should protect its citizens, not control them. It should create the economic system that allows all people the most opportunity to succeed -- that's NOT socialism. It should never guarantee anything, nothing can be guaranteed. Health care is not a right.

[Swamp Rat]

19. I say health care IS a right, and I hope you never have to suffer your

version of America.

"Someone could say that "Since non-whites are responsible for a lot of crime, general welfare of the people demands they must die." - Straw man.

"General welfare is not a justification for socialism." - red herring

"Government should protect its citizens, not control them." - truism

"It should create the economic system that allows all people the most opportunity to succeed -- that's NOT socialism." - non sequitur

I hope you change your mind some day about poor folks and the disenfranchised. Your post reminds me of Leo Strauss.

[neverborn]

22. Disagree.

Red herring? The post is about socialism and whether "general Welfare" justifies it.

I hope I have to "suffer" my version of America -- where I'm not stolen from for a "right."

[Selwynn]

26. This post is not about "socialism"

It is about justice.

Yes.. god forbid you be forced to function in a community instead of having a fuck-you attitude to the needs of anyone else.

[neverborn]

28. A fuck-you attitude?

It is not my responsibility to provide mediocre healthcare to the poor. If I want to give to the poor, I will give to charity.

How much have you given to charity recently?

Also, isn't socialized medicine and other such government functions... SOCIALISM? Thus the point?

[Pithlet]

20. Well

I don't think there is anything in the constitution about mass genocide. That is a ridiculous argument against government looking out for its citizens.

Honestly, the government should NEVER guarantee anything? Then, what is the point? I'd like to think that part of freedom and opportunity is surviving and being well enough to do so. My freedom and opportunity won't mean shit if I'm too sick to pursue it because I had no health care. And, if I'm out of the picture, then society has lost yet another productive citizen that keeps society going.

[Selwynn]

25. Your definition is wrong.

The constitution clearly established a social role for government, and it wrote into the document what the goals of government should be, to promote general welfare, ensure domestic tranquility, and of course this was build on the foundation set up in the declaration where the authors recognized that all peoples have rights - not privileges - rights: life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. In the Constitution we see the framers recognize that the governments responsibility in part is the protect those rights and empower the pursuit of happiness.

There are some basic human rights:

(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favorable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Now, people like you, who don't want to government to guarantee (which doesn't mean absolute certainly, it just means that the government acknowledges that it is an essential part of its duties) a standard of living to its citizens, do so because of no reason other than selfishness. Why should the problems of others be my concern. If someone else is in trouble, they should work harder. If that doesn't help, then they should die. The one thing they shouldn't do is have a based flooring put under them by their society that guarantees a certain degree of safety, according to people like you. Never mind the fact that we are the richest country in the history of the world and half our citizens can't afford health care. What a joke.

The problem with people who think as you - like social Darwinists - which is what your statement is - is that because the last thing you want your government to do is lift a finger to help anyone other than you, you choose instead to believe in "faith-based" quality of life. Meaning, it should be up to the "economy" - meaning in this care the big multinational corporations that drive the economy and the 1% of the richest men in America behind them - to create opportunities for the rest of us to have our basic rights. This is basically the "I don't give a fuck about you" concept, since we have proved over and over and over again that left to themselves, big business will NOT look out for anything other than the pathological pursuit of profit and power, to quote a book title. For business, if there is a way to screw the public - they will - fuck rights.

The governments responsibility is to regulate that, and to demand that a certain basic standard of human decency be guaranteed to all peoples - that means limits on exploitative pursuit of capital, that means balance between flexibility in markets and social services to the people. To ignore that, or to embrace radical self-interest in the name of "American" is fundamentally unjust.

[Kanary]

18. Yup, those are the words, the goal and the duty of the government

Even Dems have forgotten what we're supposed to be about.

Isn't that interesting?

Good post!

Kanary

[Gore1FL]

21. Six goals are specifically stated in the Constitution

We the people of the United States, in order to

form a more perfect union,
establish justice,
insure domestic tranquility,
provide for the common defense,
promote the general welfare, and
secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity,

do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

[Selwynn]

30. more perfect union, justice, and general welfare requires that...

the government regulate (provide checks and balances to) corporate industry and guarantee a basic standard of living to its citizens. (Guarantee, meaning affirm it as an essential and non-negotiable responsibility of government.)

Without that commitment, we can never fulfill the promises of this nations foundation fully.

[MaryBear]

23. I partially agree.

To my mind, government is the way we manage the social good for ourselves, however we agree to define that. We come together because it benefits us to do so. For me, that means managing infrastructure, guarding my freedoms to do as I will while harming none, and keeping corporations honest, among other things. Complicated question for late night thinking.

[oscar111]

24. control 3 main causes of social ills:greed,race hate,religion hate

in other words,

control

-greedheads,
-groups with the false cause-theory of "ethnics cause all social ills"
-groups with the false theory of "other religions.. other than mine... cause all ills". {exception.. some fascist religions DO cause social ills}

========
sleepy, i hope i said that correctly. Late hour for such complicated thought ! Excuse any errors.

[sangh0]

27. I strongly disagree

The govt's primary role is to protect our rights, and promoting the general welfare, while important, is a corollary to that.

[Selwynn]

29. One is inseparable from the other.

[sangh0]

31. On 2nd thought, I've changed my mind

I think the one who posted the list from the Constitution which included both protecting rights AND the common welfare, plus a few others like "forming a more perfect union", etc

So yes, they are inseperable

[Selwynn]

32. What!?! Mind changing is not allowed!! What do you think this is,

..a place for reflection and discussion of ideals with the potential for learning and improvement?

Ha. HA I SAY!

hehe... just kidding. :)