"Defending our flag"???

[manic expression]

Why is it that every U.S. soldier, no matter what the situation, is looked at even by liberals as a hero in uniform...one who defends our flag and fights for our freedoms so we don't have to.
WTF?????????
The war in Iraq is NOT defending anyone's flag. Actually, I tend to believe it is dishonoring it. They are NOT fighting for anyone's freedoms. I think everyone here can see how much "freedom" the Iraqi people have (if you want specifics I can list them later). And most of all, I am tired of the myth that it takes courage to fight in the U.S. Military. Dropping bombs on weddings, shooting at cars filled with innocent families and torturing people who have commited no crime takes no courage whatsoever. It would take a lot more courage to stand up to Bush and his gang of thieves and lay down their arms.
I look forward to other people's opinions.

[noahmijo]

1. Well you make it sound like the sole purpose of our military is to

commit war crimes and I think that's disrespectful of those who do not willfully engage in those activities.

It falls back on leadership, under Clinton was our military doing this? did Clinton send our military out to occupy a nation that never threatened us? When you say lay down their arms do you mean in Iraq they should all just put down their weapons and refuse to fire? at this point their mission is stay alive and get home to their families, what would you do if you signed up for the military thinking that you're doing a service for your country next thing you know they got you in some hellhole that you dunno why you're there and all of a sudden people who hate you with a biting passion are shooting at you?

No the truth is our military is not shameful is not an institution of the uncourageous, it has been shamed by this administration. This administration is the sole blame for the name our military has been given.

[manic expression]

2. Good points...

But I respectfully disagree. Remember that factory Clinton bombed that was supposed to be really bad? It turned out that it was making asprin. Clinton bombed residential districts in Kosovo, even if that was actually a "justified" war. The fact is, the actions of the military over the past 200 years have been mostly unacceptable. The removal of the Native Americans, the Mexico-American war, the "Indian Wars" (Sand Creek, Wounded Knee, etc., etc...), the invasion and occupation of the Philipines, WWII (wow, something positive)+Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Iraq, every dealing we've done in South/Central America. This is the way our military has been used.
I'm sorry I didn't point this out before, but I'm not condemning every soldier around the world. As you said, a lot of them ended up there without knowing what was going on. But, there have been so many injustices commited by our troops that it is no longer an excuse that "I didn't really want to do it". The Nurenburg trials set this precedent.
I also believe that it takes equal/more courage to stand in front of riot police that are shooting rubber bullets and gas into crowds and be fired upon and get shot multiple times (Savannah, Miami). It also takes a lot of courage to fight foriegn invaders to your country who are responsible for unjustified chaos and destruction. That takes true courage.

[Mr. Blonde]

3. So how are returning soldiers supposed to be treated?

I respect them for what they are doing. They joined the military (something I have no interest in doing) knowing that if the time came they may have to defend our country. They are not policy makers they go where they are told. Even if they do not agree with what they are fighting for it is there job. By the way, infantry doesn't drop bombs on anything. It is no American soldiers fault that he is a member of the greatest fighting force in the world.

[manic expression]

4. Their job?

Most soldiers joined because there were no other economic options at that time. The last time we had to "defend" our country was the war of 1812, and we even declared that one. If they are supposed to go and do what they're told, would they put Iraqi women and children into pens and fire on them with heavy guns if they were ordered to? Duty transcends what you're told to do and not do. Right now, their real duty should be protecting Iraqis, "enemy combatant or not", protecting others even if it means standing up to a friend or brother. The thing that saddens me is people overlook the power of the human spirit and mind. Making men and women into nothing except proffessional killers who in turn are made to oppress an entire people is not the way we as a nation should operate.
There is footage of soldiers shooting men who are running away and laughing about it. If you have seen Fahrenheit 9/11, you will see tank crewmen listening to hard rock as they kill indescriminately (with no remorse). Helicopter pilots mow down Iraqis only trying to help their wounded and who pose NO threat to Americans at all. Soldiers have the power to help the situation, but they must realize that there are infinitely more important things than to respect orders.

[Mr. Blonde]

5. There are more important things than respecting orders

but I can assure you if I were in Iraq now I would be pretty prejudicial. It is their job, no matter why they joined they are paid for services. How are they supposed to protect people, when those people could very well shoot them in the back a minute later? What is the difference between how a civilian looks and how an insurgent looks?

Again how is it that you would like for us to treat soldiers? I agree some of them do act terribly, but that doesn't make the whole lot bad. I try not to pass judgement on people who are in a situation I (thankfully) am not in.

[manic expression]

6. I am aware that I am passing judgement

and I do believe that it is not the best thing to do. In this situation, it is almost essential. However, I think a soldier who "passes judgement" to an innocent person (because he might've been an insurgent) in the form of a bullet does a lot more harm than my slight generalizations. You ask: "How are they supposed to protect people?" The answer is quite simple: any way possible. Check what you're firing at once in awhile for instance. Or perhaps, try not to shoot at crowds of people without any guns. Maybe they shouldn't fire on peaceful marchers (and don't say it didn't happen because Amnesty International has at least one documented case where it did actually happen). Of course, I don't have any combat experience (I'll probably get my chance if Dubya gets re-elected). But I'd like to think that anyone in any situation is capable of treating anyone with kindness. Yes, they are being shot at, and yes, this does cause A LOT of trauma to a person. But, enough trauma to stop treating others as humans? I would certainly hope not.
To your original question (that I forgot to answer in my previous post): How to treat soldiers upon their return? With scrutinizing respect. With careful friendliness. Yes, they may have had a direct hand in a crime (they do have an indirect hand in one big one), but it would be very cold to treat them all that way. I truly believe that more attention should be put on returning soldiers that actually have committed despicable acts. We need to start investigating and condemning A LOT of terrible things committed by OUR TROOPS dishonoring OUR FLAG and hurting THE IRAQI PEOPLE if we want any type of solace in this base war.

[Mr. Blonde]

7. If I were in Iraq I would like to think that

I would try to help the innocents, but how far would I be willing to go when it could be my own neck? I doubt I would have the guts to do a hell of a lot. Soldiers are not super human, although they are put in super human situations. That they overreact is obvious, but understandable. I don't doubt that these things have happened in all wars, but it is more publicized now.

Things need to be condemned, but how much do we need to dig into this? I think soldiers like anyone who may be guilty should be innocent untill proven guilty.

[manic expression]

8. The soldiers are there

to risk their necks...why not do it for a real purpose. The only way to show the people of Iraq that we care (or that some people care, anyway) about their wellbeing is to risk and sacrifice our soldiers' lives for them. The problem is our mission is not so where soldiers can die for the Iraqi people, because when they follow orders, they only die for Bush. When they go beyond orders, and help others even if they may die for it, then we will truly see progress.
A soldier overreacting is NOT understandable when it causes death. In any situation. The life of an Iraqi child or father or mother or teacher or doctor is NOT expendable due to a "mistake". AT ALL. Of course these thing happened in all wars, especially every occupation. But that does not make it any less deplorable.
How far must we dig into war crimes? As far as we possibly can. Although that is almost impossible, because the people who are supposed to do the digging are the ones who are responsible for the things they are investigating. We need independent investigations into our military's actions. U.S. soldiers must be brought before international courts and have their innocence or guilt be proven in front of the world.

[Mr. Blonde]

11. Every soldier?

Do we need to go back and see who all has screwed up in previous wars? When under reacting could cost you your life, I think it is understandable to see how over reacting can cost someone else their life. I'm not condoning it but it is something that happens.

[manic expression]

17. The difference is...

under-reacting MIGHT cost you your life, over-reacting WILL cost someone elses life. The point is, if you are an occupying force that is supposed to bring "freedom" to a people, you have a responsibility to give a potentially innocent person the benefit of the doubt when both lives are in danger.

[Columbia]

19. Unless you have been in that hole

And facing the same dire situation, you have no idea how difficult it is.

[manic expression]

20. I don't pretend to

I'm not saying what U.S. soldiers face is pretty. But as I look at documented cases of U.S. injustices in Iraq, it is very hard to see a soldier commit them just because he thought things had gotten a little too "dire".

[Columbia]

21. You do what you have to do to live

Don't blame the soldiers, blame the people who put them in the situation.

And again, unless you have been in that situation, you do not understand how hard those choices are to make and having to live with the consequences of those actions for the rest of your life.

[manic expression]

23. I blame the Administration...

but who carries out the will of the Bush crime family? The U.S. military, that's who.
I can't even get my license yet, or buy tobacco, so of course I am not a battle-tested warrior. As long as America continues to fight bogus wars for self-interest, I will NEVER join the U.S. Military, even if I am drafted. I will (as I have stated in other posts) fight real causes.
"...you do not understand how hard those choices are"
What choices do you speak of? Like which person to torture? Which wedding to bomb? Which city to ravage? As I have said before, I do not condemn every American serviceman. I do object to how they are used, portrayed and how some of them act.
And, just wondering, have you ever been in the line of fire? (By the way, it doesn't really matter to me if you haven't)

[Columbia]

27. Yes

I served in Iraq. So everything you have said in this thread pertains to me.

Your view is overly simplistic and maybe after a few years you will realize the real world is vastly more complex than the media portrays it to be.

[democratreformed]

55. Do you not think that many of them ponder over the things you just

mentioned? Do you not think that there job is excruciatingly painful? Especially when you consider that the vast majority of them are just babies? Can you not feel their pain - when they have to worry about who is shooting at them and protect themselves - when they know that these people are only trying to defend THEIR country?

Yes, there were some bad thing in F-911. But, please don't project the bad ones that MM chose to include on our soldiers as a group.

I can put myself into their place and I can FEEL how horrifying it must be over there.

[mr_binklesworth]

56. I'm thankful for them...

They volunteer to do the worst imaginable job to defend this country. Though I quite often disagree with the way the military is used, I appreciate that they fulfill their duties without question - we could be in bad shape, otherwise.

That there were abuses of prisoners - those bastards need to be punished - everyone seems to agree on that.

Our strong military is an important part of our democracy. However, it shouldn't be used as a primary means of diplomacy, which is another topic altogether.

Cheers,
MF

[Bertha Venation]

9. "the myth that it takes courage to fight in the U.S. Military"

AFAIC it's not about defending a flag. That's a RWNB talking point. It's not about defending our freedom. The flag -- it's just a symbol. Freedom -- anyone whose skin isn't lily-white, who doesn't have a penis, or who's gay in this country knows we have a long way to go on that score.

I didn't serve, and now I am too old. But my lack of service doesn't make me any less appreciative of what U.S. servicemen and -women do.

The members of our armed forces know when they join up that they could die horrible deaths or be maimed for life. It doesn't matter why they sign up or why they think they're in a war; they'll still be just as maimed or dead. Many of them were probably thinking about it when they signed their names. I have never signed my name to such a pledge. Have you? Many DUers have and I owe them my gratitude. They did a job I couldn't.

I respect U.S. soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, and guardsmen. Bush sent them into an immoral war, yes. (Is there even such a thing as a righteous war?) I'm sure many of them knew it was immoral. I'm afraid many have probably abdicated their humanity during this war. But I believe that the majority of those serving today are honorable men and women doing the job they committed themselves to doing. I believe most of them took their humanity along with them to Iraq or Afghanistan or wherever they're under fire. I have no doubt that when disasters happen, when their leaders (for whom I have far less respect) order them to carry out attacks that should never happen, the soldiers who learn they killed civilians are beside themselves with grief. And I'm sure some would probably give their own lives if they could bring back one Iraqi civilian that died by their hands.

It's a myth that it takes courage to fight in the U.S. military? Bullshit. The cowards are the ones who never fight at all -- the cowards are the ones in business suits and the ones with stars on their shoulders. And the biggest cowards in this country today are the people named Bush, Cheney, Powell, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Wolfowitz .

[manic expression]

12. Some of that is true....

but the fact remains...this entire war is not courageous whatsoever. I never said soldiers were cowards, but many are certainly not worthy of the virtues a lot of people say they are. I have never given such a pledge that you mentioned before (I'm too young, first of all), but I swear to you, if I am sent to do a mission for Bush due to a draft, I will do everything in my power to either leave or slow that mission. If there is martial law imposed upon us, I will fight it, even to the bitter end. My oath is to my own morals and my own honor, not to some cowboy who never got elected.
You said that "the majority of those serving today are honorable men and women doing the job they committed themselves to doing." THEY ARE NOT DOING THEIR JOB! Oppressing a nation was not in their job description when they signed up. Real courage is doing what you know is right, even if you suffer for it. Courage would embody saying "NO, I will not kill innocents for you". Courage would be not shooting at someone who may be a civilian, even if it means that you die. Courage would be to refuse to go to a horrible war (Vietnam) just because some jerk says "you're next" (Muhammad Ali). Are they "cowards" because they don't fight? Fighting is not only killing Iraqis, it also means fighting injustice. To fight a corrupt and dishonest administration at any means necessary is true courage, and it is a noble struggle, as well.
It does not take much courage to shell cities in a tank that is almost indestructible to the Iraqi resistance. Most soldiers will never know if they killed a civilian or not ("We don't do body counts"). What about the soldiers who (not ONLY in Abu-Graib) completely dehumanize Iraqi prisoners, the soldiers who drag regular Iraqis out of their homes without a shred of evidence of their guilt in ANYTHING. That is definitely not anything good. Period.
"...the biggest cowards in this country today are the people named Bush, Cheney, Powell, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Wolfowitz."
So true. But who carries out their orders?

[Bertha Venation]

13. I hope that some day you are able to channel your energy

usefully. The certitude of youth eventually gives way to reality -- if you pay attention, which I've no doubt you'll do.

'night, all.

[Mr. Blonde]

14. It is a little bit much to ask any soldier to do this

"Courage would embody saying "NO, I will not kill innocents for you". Courage would be not shooting at someone who may be a civilian, even if it means that you die."

To refrain from saving their own life? Also is every Iraqi an innocent?

[manic expression]

15. Every Iraqi WAS innocent

Before we came storming in.
Of course it may be a bit too much for some, but things are not too great right now so why not try something different? Maybe we should start building and protecting schools, priceless museums and water supply centers instead of oil fields.

[Mr. Blonde]

16. So was every German in WWII

and they didn't attack us either. Should our soldiers have also sacrificed themselves to protect innocent nazis?

[Jesus H. Christ]

22. You're comparing the Iraqis to Nazis?

Are you apologizing the nazis or defending the slaughter of innocent civilians?

Or a little from column A and a little from column B?

[Dangerman]

98. No he's not.

If you country was invaded by a vicious foriegn power under false claims, do you greet them with flowers?

[TX-RAT]

39. Well said Bertha. Thank You

US Army 69-72
Some things take a lot of whiskey to forget.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

10. Well I am the first veteran dragged into this one, I will give you my

perspective.
25 years active duty, 4 Navy, 21 Coast Guard. Retired at E8, Senior Chief Boatswain Mate.

3 years in Vietnam as a Hospital Corpsman with the 9th Marines 1972-1975, on one of the last helicopters off the roof of the US Embassy.

It is not a matter as simple to put as such.

"Defending our flag" means to the military that lawful orders given by those appointed over you are to be obeyed. that is the biz.

Does it mean all those orders are based on good political decisions? No. Worrying about the scope of politics is beyond those at the pointy end of the spear.

Naturally, unlawful orders are supposed to be declined. However, in some situations your personal safety may be jepordized by doing so. Each person has to decide what level of participation is right for them at that time.

It is very complex to explain in a short note. I will read your posts and reply to other points in a few.

[Columbia]

18. Ah, another anti-military tirade

Wonderful.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. You prefer pro-military tirades?

[Columbia]

48. I prefer tirades that have a modicum of knowledge and a dose of respect

This one has neither.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

49. Respect for what?

The military? Why? Their main job is killing people. You admire that?

[Columbia]

50. For people

Not a flat, one-sided, ignorant, stereotype.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

58. Really. How about respect for the people they kill?

They're cannon fodder. They do as they're told for the most part. That's their job. The more pyschotic of them enjoy it. The rest are poor sods who were looking for work, or manhood, or "glory". I feel sorry for them. Not to say that American GI's are any worse than any other countries, the same rich and/or powerful people are just as prone to send them out to kill and die to fatten their wallets or egos.

The military may still be a sad necessity, but it doesn't need glorification.

[Columbia]

59. John Kerry thanks you

As for how I feel, I'll refrain out of respect for the rules of DU.

Have a nice day.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

60. John Kerry voted for war.

Oh, no need to be respectful.

BTW I spent 4 years in the marines learning how to kill people I didn't know, and had no reason to kill.

You?

[Columbia]

65. 6 years in the Marines

Learning to kill, but ended up feeding hungry people, dispensing medical supplies, and building schools.

[manic expression]

67. Must you be so simplistic and one-sided

to overlook the fact that I do not object to that in any way? You must have thought that I am condemning every U.S. soldier on earth. As I have stated before, I object to the way they are portrayed, used and how many of them act. MANY. NOT ALL. Isn't it true that what is happening in Iraq is wrong? Don't U.S. soldiers have a direct hand in it, even if they don't acknowledge the fact that they have a choice? Isn't it true that many actions taken by the U.S. Military are deplorable?
By the way: you're a tirade yourself, whether you choose to accept that or not.

[Columbia]

70. I'm a tirade? You should grab a dictionary on that one

You say you are only speaking of "many" now, but you did not make the clarification in your original post. In fact, even this refinement is inaccurate, because most people who serve do serve honorably.

"Isn't it true that what is happening in Iraq is wrong?"

Some things are wrong, some are right.

"Don't U.S. soldiers have a direct hand in it, even if they don't acknowledge the fact that they have a choice?"

Servicemembers are responsible for their actions and should be held accountable for them.

"Isn't it true that many actions taken by the U.S. Military are deplorable?"

That depends on your definition of many. As I said before, the vast majority of people servicemembers in Iraq are not like the Abu Ghraib sadists, but good people who are doing their best to do a good job serving their country and the people of Iraq.

[manic expression]

71. Shall we split hairs?

Of course I made a broad statement in my first post. I know I did. Am I restricted from refining my opinion? Furthermore, you accused me of saying that EVERY U.S. serviceman have done horrible things. Please find an exact quote of what I said and I will answer to it. You are accusing me of things that you haven't backed up.
"because most people who serve do serve honorably." Isn't that what you were accusing me of before? Making general statements? Anyway, what do you think "serving honorably" means? Does it mean following orders, because then you would be saying its acceptable to level cities (Falluja, Najaf), or its ok to bomb a wedding or home that the "terrarists" were hiding in, or firing into crowds of peaceful protesters (Amnesty International has proven that this happened).
"That depends on your definition of many" I said many because I have no definite number, all that I know is that there are TOO MANY injustices happening in this war, and others that have happened in many others.
"Servicemembers are responsible for their actions and should be held accountable for them." Even when they are following orders. The Nuremberg trials set this precedent. The problem is, no one is holding them accountable for their actions (international courts are even barred from holding accountable for war crimes).

[Columbia]

72. Sure

The difference is that your generalizations are flat out incorrect.

Do you even know anybody in the military?

[manic expression]

73. So now you're trying

to criticize me instead of my opinions. You didn't even bother to back up your assertion: "The difference is that your generalizations are flat out incorrect." or any of the other statements you said about my opinions. If that's the way you want to debate, I can't stop you. No, I don't personally know anyone in the military. I know people that are definitely going to go into the Armed Forces, and I know people who have been in the military. Does it even matter? How are my opinions now null and void because I don't know someone in Iraq?
Let me ask you something of the same value: Do you even know anybody who manufactured the lies which made the war on Iraq possible? If not...how can you criticize their judgment if you don't know them? It's the same exact reasoning that has no significance whatsoever.

[Columbia]

74. No, I'm not

I'm telling you that you are wrong and you do not have the requisite knowledge to make a case either way. You generalize about poeple in the military yet you admit you don't even know anybody in it.

"Do you even know anybody who manufactured the lies which made the war on Iraq possible?"

Sure, I do. Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, and Dick Cheney.

If you are going to form a derogatory opinion about a group of people, at least have the wherewithal to make an effort to learn about them.

[manic expression]

75. Requisite knowledge?

"Sure, I do. Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, and Dick Cheney." Do you know them personally? Well, if you don't know them intimately, then you can't say anything bad about them. That is exactly what you are asking me and its completely bogus. Just because you know people in the military means you are the be-all end-all authority on everything to do with Iraq??? Yeah, right. If I knew 100 people who are in Iraq at this very moment my opinion would not change. If I knew people in Iraq, it wouldn't make what U.S. soldiers actions any better or any worse. Your argument holds no water at all.
By the way...thanks for backing up your statements from before.

[Columbia]

76. Yes

You can know things about certain people with the right research. But you are making huge, broad, statements about people whom you have never met. Any the back up for my statements is that I have been in the military very recently and have vastly more experience with them than you.

[manic expression]

78. Exactly how many have you met?

If you have not met at least 50.01% of the U.S. Armed Forces, you are making general statements as well. You said that the majority of Servicemen do their duty honorably...how can you say that if you don't know that many people? I think it's fair to say that my statements are completely warrented and valid. I also have more than enough knowledge of the situation to make correct opinions. You've barely addressed my statemnets and have spent all this time trying to make me look like I don't know enough to talk about Iraq. Which is absolutely ridiculous.

[Columbia]

79. Tens of thousands

Hate to say this, and I never thought I would, but you'll understand after a few more rings around the trunk, kid.

[manic expression]

83. Knowledge knows no age

Don't think that because I may be younger than you, I don't see and understand the reality of things. You're only argument against me is that 1.) I'm younger than you. 2.) I haven't met people in the Armed Forces. Not the best counter-points I've ever seen.
How can you personally know "Tens of thousands" of people? How can you know all their actions and whether they have done wrong in this war full of wrongs? Let's say you personally know 40,000 U.S. soldiers anyway (even though you don't and never will). Well, there's about 120,000 U.S. soldiers in Iraq, so then, by your logic, you shouldn't make any claims, bad or good, about the other 70%. If you knew no soldiers in Iraq, I wouldn't make any judgments upon you or your opinions. It seems you have done both to me.
Also, you still haven't touched on any of the things I've mentioned previously. This isn't even a discussion anymore, its turning into a personal spat...that's the last thing I want.

[Columbia]

85. But wisdom does

And how are you claiming you have knowledge and at same time say you don't, but knowledge doesn't matter?

Would I ask an English professor how to do Calculus? Or a math teacher about Chaucer?

[manic expression]

87. When did I say I didn't have knowledge?

Knowledge does matter, but I will never rate someone's opinion based on what I think of the person's intellectual power. Prove the opinion wrong, don't try to prove the person wrong.
And also, that comparison doesn't work at all.

[Columbia]

90. The whole time you were saying you could have an opinion without knowing

How would you like it if I said derogatory things about your friends or your family or your school without ever knowing them or being there?

You better learn something real quick, kid. You do not tell a veteran, who has "been there," derogatory statements about his or her service or his or her brothers and sisters in service. You may get away with it here on the Internet, but I highly advise against doing it to the person's face.

[manic expression]

92. Thanks for patronizing me.

It shows me how much respect you give others without even knowing them.
If you really want to take this "you don't know them!" junk any further...think about this: Almost every person who's condemned the Iraqi resistance or al-Qeada have probably never met anyone who belongs to those groups. Are their opinions less valid? No.
Ok, let me use your little example about my school. If there was a knifing incident in my school where 2 kids who did nothing to deserve it got killed, and the principle decided that he would not pursue the murderers. You could tell me that they were wrong, unjustified or anything else even if you never met them. Now, it would be wrong if you condemned everyone in my school who's ever been associated with the people suspected. That is what I have been careful not to do (even though I probably came off horribly wrong and I apologize for that).
I'll tell someone who's "been there" that I think the actions of a lot of U.S. soldiers is wrong. I don't see anything disrespectful about that, and if they take offense, then I will disagree with them. It's that simple.
The Internet is not a bad place for discussion, actually I haven't been able to express this sentiment and so this is a good opportunity for that.

[Columbia]

93. No patronization, just a friendly warning

The vibe I have gotten from your posts is that you do characterize most servicemembers in a derogatory manner. If that was not your intention, fine, but in the future, you should make that distinction much more clear.

[manic expression]

95. Thanks.

However, I do feel that people need to speak their minds, because if no one does, nobody will understand each other and be able to refine their opinions. I have and will do my best to distinguish between soldiers that act inhumanely and unacceptably, and the ones who fight because they feel too insignificant and powerless to challenge their orders (but, I do feel they need to speak out against their "superiors" if they are ordered to do an immoral action). I believe that the real heroes, are the ones who will refuse to ship out again. They are the ones who deserve the respect of the nation. If you ask me, we should be building statues honoring the soldiers who are courageous enough to refuse to oppress a people, and who are brave enough to do what is right, no matter how terrible the consequences.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

101. 6? Were you a slow learner?

I figured out what the crotch was about in about 30 minutes. "Every Marine is a rifleman". Remember that? Things must have changed a lot since I put in my four centuries. We never built anything (except officer's egos), fed anyone, and certainly never dispensed anything but a pain in the ass to the civilians.

[Columbia]

108. It's a diff Marine Corps now

[JSJ]

24. according to a past LA Times piece, 30% of current troops...

...have criminal backgrounds- that may help to explain what motivates many in the military to commit so many atrocities under color of authority. It may also help answer the question; does the military deliberately recruit from the criminal underclass?

[manic expression]

25. That is fascinating

Thanks for the info.

[JSJ]

26. forewarned is fore-armed n/t

[vetwife]

29. I would like to respond.

We are not defending the Flag in Iraq, but saying that I will say this. So many of the people who joined the guard did so for better education and values they were brought up with. Pop, Mom, Granpa chose to wear the uniform and some not by choice. There was a draft. Once they got there..Vietnam, Iraq, they were the property of the US government and had no choice in the matter. They were just there fighting for their lives. There are some exceptions, some who really like the Kill but those up close and personal do not.
They come back with broken bodies, minds, mamed and in one sense they were fighting for America. They and We the People are America and I believe a vote like an election should give authority to go into war. Whereas, we the people have a choice to send our young men and women into battle. War never solved anything, It all stops and gets settled at the negotiaitng table but the young people who do go have to fight or die whether they believe in America, the Flag or not. I believe in them and that is why I always say I support the warrior and not the war. I do believe we have to stand our ground but not be bullies. when I think imminent threat, I think on my doorstep. I think when people say fighting for the flag, they refer to the young men and women who have been deployed with no choice of choosing their battles and they represent We the People. That is my take. They too, are We the People. Just The people who are doing the fighting and dying and coming back with the scars of batle and not all scars are visible.

[Swamp Rat]

31. Thanks vetwife

Let's not forget their humanity (the soldiers) nor ours when we pass judgement.

:hug:

[vetwife]

34. Thank you Swamp Rat..I truly do not try and pass judgement

I see so much pain and you kow me, you know how I feel for the veteran. Some veterans are unworthy of my respect such as the SBL and others do deserve respect. There is no absolute in anything. Bad folks in everything.

[mike_c]

99. how about the innocent people they've murdered?

What about their humanity? Or don't poor brown people with different religious beliefs count as human? TENS OF THOUSANDS of Iraqi civilians have died at the hands of the invaders and occupiers. Our military-- that's individual soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen-- is not engaged in a noble cause in Iraq. They're murdering innocent people and pillaging their resources. Take away the uniform and that's called organized crime. The uniform only changes the way it's dressed up. See my sig.

[JSJ]

32. thanks vetwife, but what do you say about...

...the 30% of active duty personnel who have pre-service criminal records (and go on to commit further criminal acts while in the service)? Are they there to influence the others into committing criminal acts (killing children and unarmed civilians)- and, do they serve the illegal orders of their commanders more fully than those who find themselves in the military simply to improve their lives? Why, exactly, do criminals play such a prominent role in the post-modern US military- both as troops and commanders?

Our society doesn't do well by our young people- starting with an educational system that pushes military service on poor kids while giving more options to the better off. As a realist, I don't hold much hope for those already caught in the grinder. But, if we start now in steering kids away from serving in a perennially corrupt organization like the military, we have a much better chance of avoiding US-initiated conflicts like the ones poor kids have been fighting for over 40 years- if enough kids can dodge military service, then either we go full-mercenary (very expensive) or we don't have conflicts with defenseless nations like Iraq and Afhanistan.

I support neither the warrior nor the war, but I don't begrudge anyone supporting their kin or friends in the military, so long as 'support the troops' isn't rammed down my throat like an unassailable political slogan dredged up everytime an American war comes a calling.

[vetwife]

33. Well, I tell you....there is an old saying

I don't necessarily agree with it but I have heard it a million times. The military can make or break a person. Many people go to prison, and some are not guilty. Many offenders learn dicipline and others just become worse offenders. There is not a perfect world. There is no perfect system. That is why the Founders said, In order to form a more perfect union. I think some taken out of jails that go into the military have a better chance at becoming better people and then again I think they have a better chance at becoming better killers. I don't have an answer. I just know one cannot demonize a system that even with all of its flaws, has not been substituted with anything better than defense. I agree WAR is horrible and I do think that Peace should always come first and War should only be raged if we are fighting here..right here. But I do not believe in killing , so I wrestle with that one. I do honor our men and women who have borne the battle and I prove it. They have sacraficed more than one who has never fought will ever know. They literally have left something on the battlefield that will never be returned to them. I honor those whohave served with dignity and those who have helped in humanitarian ways. There is no good war and bad peace. I say again I am a firm believer there will never be an end to war. Not as long as man rules the Earth. No. We can just hope for a better understanding of other cultures and better leaders. I too disagree with the Flag or God being shoved down one's throat but I do beliee you have to live in one's skin to know what theyhave been through and peace truly is not a reality anywhere but we could be part of the solution and quit causing the problems.

[manic expression]

36. We the People...

They are not fighting for We the People, and they do not represent that sentiment. They represent and fight for the government for THOSE people, by THOSE people, and of THOSE people. They do not represent me in any way. They do represent the people who whimsically sent them to their potential deaths, asking them to commit horrible deeds which have been carried out by the military. It is not an excuse to commit atrocious acts just because someone told you to.
"...they were the property of the US government and had no choice in the matter." No one, in any circumstance, is property of anyone. EVER. Everyone has a choice, and that is the underlying beauty of the human spirit. It is time people start realizing that everyone has a choice in life, and when people act upon their own choices and not a "superior's" orders, we will see true progress in every way.
Some are seeking better education, but that says something about the system they are supposedly fighting for. It also shows something about the people who are supposedly fighting for it. They give their lives for a government which does not care about them. The soldiers need to start looking at what they are doing, and they must begin to acknowledge that they have to hold themselves accountable. They must begin to realize that everything has a higher value.

[vetwife]

37. But its the politicans screwing up, America is We the People and

we didn't get to vote in fact 70 percent are against the occupation.
That is why I wished we could vote for an aggressive act.We wouldn't. We the People are the government and some how people confuse us with the politicians. That is the point I was driving home. People have to take the country back and can't leave everything to elected officials. WE are the people. No they are not defending we the people but did we have a say so? No !

[manic expression]

38. If we voted...

We still would've gone. Bush had an 80 percent approval rate when the war started. If there was a popular vote, it would have been a landslide in favor of the war. It is true that he was supported because of 9/11 and the lies he made, but still, that number is simply depressing.
The fact that we didn't have a direct say in the war is a testament to the fact that the soldiers are not fighting for the people or for the flag. Congress didn't even have a direct vote for it (they abdicated their right to say so earlier), and the same thing happened with Vietnam. And even if we did have a say, the soldiers would still be fighting for nothing of real importance.

[Tsiyu]

28. Soldiers can be political victims too

I hate this war. If you've ever seen the movie "The War" with Kevin Costner and Elijah Wood, you understand the stupidity of war.

Our National Guardsmen and other Armed Services should be home helping Florida in this dire hour. They should be securing our borders, checking our ports, safeguarding our airports and nuclear facilities.

These would be the good and noble works of our State militias.
They'd much rather be performing these duties, I would bet my land on it, than killing people in Iraq. And many ARE going out of their way to help Iraqis, you can be sure of that.

You may have no use for our military. * may abuse our military. I love and support and respect most of our military.

[Swamp Rat]

30. Good for you manic expression.

You make very good points and I agree with much of what you say (and I come from a military family- almost every man served). As you see, there are others that may take offense, or nitpick a word or two, but that is to be expected on a public forum. Don't let that stop you from posting your thoughts.

:hi:

[eridani]

35. The hardest sacrifice of all, and one I couldn't make--

--is their own freedom. I could risk my life (albeit with some difficulty), but I could not put myself in a position where my freedom to make ethical decisions is compromised unless I trusted the people in charge to make decent ethical decisions on my behalf most of the time, that if they spent my life it would be for a good reason. That has never been the case in my post WW II lifetime. And yet, in a world full of armies, we have to have one too.

That's why military people talk so much about freedom, because it's the one thing they don't and can't have. Any military force is of necessity a totalitarian organization from top to bottom, ever since the disciplined ranks of Greeks, Romans, Parthians, etc. creamed the comparatively disorganized tribespeople they were up against, who were accustomed to stop in the middle of battles and watch champions slug it out. ("Sarge, about that order to take out the machinegun nest you just gave--Corporal Ramirez and I have come up with something much better that we think you should look at first." Can't happen.) That's why our founding fathers abhorred the thought of a permanent standing army, and hoped that part-time citizen militias could handle all our defense needs.

I apologize to all the servicepeople for the fact that I and others opposing senseless slaughter failed to stop this war. I did all the things that citizen activists are supposed to do, and none of them worked. I failed. I'm sorry. I'll try to make it right by helping to get Bush the hell out of office, and hounding President Kerry on the issue directly after his inauguration. Thank you for being willing to give up your freedom, and I'll try to use mine to better effect.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. Cannon fodder. Politicians love to make them heroes.

The military is the tool of politicians. Most GI's never think of themselves dying. Most are adolescents sent to do the dirty work of the powerful with no questions asked. Most will never ask questions about "lawful" or "unlawful" orders. The boss says "shoot there", "drop a bomb there", or, whatever, and the poor sap does what he's told.

I think that you're confusing the "military" with the glorification of the military.

USMC '61-'65

[manic expression]

42. Is it true

that soldiers have a choice, no matter what? Even if they suffer horrible consequences, isn't there still a choice?
Is it true that there is a "kill first, ask questions later" attitude within the armed forces? Do soldiers ever think about the lives of the people they are killing?
And, perhaps the glorification should take blame, but I've never heard of any glorification killing anyone.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. It is true. But, the reality is different.

As in so many things. Young soldiers (marines, what have you) are working from the well drilled in assumption that the officers/nco's know what they're doing and that, being small fry, they know little. They are also faced with groupthink which is equally drummed into them that they must not loose face in front of their buddies.

It's rare that soldiers think about who they are killing or why. The military does it's utmost for that not to happen. People are reduced to "the enemy", "targets", "gooks", "slopes", "commies", "ragheads", etc, to dehumanize them. The military has done studies to make sure that the GI's will shoot, bomb, whatever, without considering the impact.

You've never heard of the glorification of killing anyone? Well, take a stroll through almost any city and you will see "heroes" in marble or granite. They're achievement being that they killed a lot of people (or, ordered the cannon fodder to do it).

Don't get me wrong, I'm with you. I see no heroes among soldiers. My heroes are the peacemakers and the ones that refused to kill for the politicians.

[manic expression]

51. You said it

"I see no heroes among soldiers. My heroes are the peacemakers and the ones that refused to kill for the politicians." I could've never said it better myself.
The way soldiers are not supposed to question anything is why the military is such a scary thing. The fact that there is almost no individual thinking to be found is very depressing. I wish soldiers could see the beauty in everything and everyone...but I guess I'm an idealist. But I think that it's essential that soldiers realize that one life is not worth any less because they're not ranked as high (or because they are from a different country/fighting force).
"You've never heard of the glorification of killing anyone?" You must have mistaken me. I was saying that I've never heard of the actual glorification killing anyone. I was saying that the soldiers are the ones who do the killing, and the people who glorify them put a nice pretty facade over the disturbing reality.

[Disturbed]

46. Please do some research.

Study the Meylie (sp) incident for a close examination of how soldiers act in situation that most knew was morally wrong.

[hiphopnation]

43. While I agree with the sentiment

as it pertains to the Iraq War, I take issue with this line: "the myth that it takes courage to fight in the U.S. Military"

You can protest war and rail against it while still realizing that fighting in wars takes utmost courage; the kind that our chimp in chief doesn't seem to have.

Many here on this board have said that they would fast pick up a weapon to defend themselves from a violent form of facism if it came to that. Do you think that that kind of decision would take courage? I submit that fighting in ANY military takes courage.

That said, my father fought in Viet Nam and he has only in the past few years come to the realization that it was an unnecessary war. Do I think he's any less of a hero for going enlisting, fighting, getting shrapnel in his eye, and being sent home? No, I don't. But that has nothing to do with nationalistic, American pride attached to the flag or because I'm operating under the dellusional idea that he was there fighting to protect my freedom. That is simply related to my admiration and love for him as a person. See the difference?

[manic expression]

44. Perhaps...

It is a broad statement to say what I said (I'll keep it that way because I'll stand by my words). But it is true that many actions that were taken by our troops have little traces of courage. Specifically, I don't think it takes all too much courage to a few buttons to cause unknowable pain and suffering (planes, tanks). It does take at least some courage to fight in any military, but it is absolutely ridiculous to label every U.S. soldier a "valiant hero" as most of the country does. This is a form of generalization, and I believe it is bogus. I admit that I am guilty of the same charge, to a degree, however, I believe that the generalizations I make are more than justified due to the actions of the U.S. Military.
I do not doubt the courage or general integrity of men like your father (I doubt the value of their mission, the justification of their actions and how they treat others in war). In Vietnam, there were instances where villages full of innocents were slaughtered. There were times when gas which people knew harmed life were scattered across the jungle. Are the people responsible for these atrocities brave? Are they courageous? No, they are not. I do doubt the courage of people who kill others while they know it is unnecessary. I doubt the courage of men who, protected by armor, drop bombs and shells indiscriminately on cities. And until people look at what is happening because of the wrong actions of our soldiers, the myths that blur reality will never die.

[hiphopnation]

47. But you address "our soldiers"

as if this phenomenon is exclusive to U.S. soldiers. As if brutal dictators peppered throughout history have not used the military as a prop to buoy nationalistic pride and jingoistic fervor. What you may be rallying against in a more general form here is war and violence, writ large.

I'm sure that my father killed men in Viet Nam. I don't know if they were all innocent in the sense that, had he not fired first, they would not have killed him. But in the sense that the reasons for which American troops were there killing were wrong in the first place, I believe that they were innocent. He does too, now, evidently.

But what about countries with conscription laws? What if one of these young soldiers who has no choice but to be in the military is sent to fight, kill and die for their country? How do they measure up to the heroism, or lack thereof, in your rubric?

[manic expression]

54. The same thing

happens in other countries, of course, but that does not rationalize the fact that it is happening to the U.S. as well. I believe that it is not an excuse that just because others have done we are doing. We have the power to be better than that. It does not make it any less unacceptable because it has happened before.
On a personal level, your father did very little wrong when he killed people who were trying to kill him. If he did what he could to help innocent people even if he could have lost his life, he is beyond courageous (whoever does that, in any situation, has my infinite respect). On the big picture, you are also perfectly correct. Those men he killed would have probably not been killed had it not been for horrible decisions made by American leaders. Your father is not what I have objected to at all.
People who are in the military and people who are drafted are never tied to the will of others. Humans ALWAYS have a choice, no matter what situation they are given. If they know they are wrong in fighting, but do it anyway, they have cowered away from their duty. If they refuse to fight an unjust war even when they know they will pay immeasurable consequences, I consider them heroes in ways I cannot describe in words.

[democratreformed]

52. I agree that the war in Iraq is not defending our flag OR our freedom.

That's where my agreement with you ends. I do believe that our men and women in uniform are special people. They choose to give up a part of their lives to serve their country. Granted, they are rewarded for their service - but, I can't help - the rewards they get are not enough to make me want to give up years of my life to risk having to kill or be killed.

I did not say they are heroes. But, in a sense, they are. Not in the traditional sense, I guess, but heroes nonetheless. Yes, they are a group - and as such - are made up of a diversity of people. So, some of them may not actually be good people deep down. But, neither are all members of any other group.

Taking the group as whole, though, they are heroes to me. They sacrifice more than I am willing to sacrifice, and in doing so, they take the chance that they may be called upon to actually defend us, our freedoms, and, yes, our flag. Just because that is not so in this war makes it no less so. When they chose to serve, they chose to also take the chance that their services would not be used for good. It's just that no one ever expected it to happen that way (or, at least, very few, I would bet).

[Disturbed]

61. Blanket Party

Blanket Party

This is not a direct example of not following illegal orders but
In my view it illustrates that one can use their own conscience to
stop a situation that one feels is morally wrong.

One night, maybe around 1 AM, as I was sleeping in an Army barracks I was awkened by the sound of a person crying and moaning. It took me a minute or so to realize that it was a person that was being beaten. It was a Blanket Party. This is a situation where a number of people throw a blanket over a person that is in bed and beat on that person.

I got up and turned and turned on the lights. All of the people that were beating the person under the blanket ran away. I then turned off the lights and went back to my cot.

A few minutes later a guy I knew came up to me and said that I had no business in turning on the lights and that I might be getting a Blanket Party because of that. I was then told that the guy getting the Blanket Party had gotten paid for KP, Kitchen Duty but never showed and that’s why he was getting beaten. I said that I didn’t
give a shit why and that if it happened again that I would turn on the lights again. I told him that if he wished to beat me that I was available right then. He said nothing. I then told him if I got a blanket party that I would beat his ass in the daylight. They never came for me and no Blanket Parties were ever done as long as I was stationed there.

[democratreformed]

63. You are a true hero and I applaud your actions.

Still, I cannot and I will not condemn those boys and girls (which most of them are) over there for not rising up to fight the esablishment. I can and will continue to be sympathetic to them for the position they are trapped in. Regardless of whethere it's right or wrong, and regardless of what they started out fighting FOR, many of them are NOW fighting for their very lives. In defending themselves, they are forced to terrorize and kill innocent people - people who are merely doing what many of us would do if a foreign army came to occupy our country.

[manic expression]

64. I concur

with democratreformed and I really respect what you did.
Just out of curiosity: When and where were you in the Army?

[manic expression]

62. The examples of where

"our flag" has actually been defended are few and far between. Most of the actions in history taken by the U.S. Military are unacceptable, this most recent one being no different. Most of them chose to "serve" because they needed money and an education. That system is what they are really defending.
The opinion that they serve so others don't have to is false in every way. The U.S. Military has rarely been used in any justified or appropriate way. There are others who are willing to sacrifice themselves in many similar ways, for different reasons. People who stand in front of a hail of rubber bullets and tear gas have just as much courage if not more than many soldiers (Miami/Savannah). Iraqis who defend their country from foreign invaders when no one has called them to takes immeasurable courage.
The soldiers are not defending our flag in Iraq, nor were they in almost all U.S. wars. There is little to defend anyway, because the American public and government has already tarnished our flag many times over.

[democratreformed]

66. So.... I agree with you on a few other things.

"There are others who are willing to sacrifice themselves in many similar ways, for different reasons. People who stand in front of a hail of rubber bullets and tear gas have just as much courage if not more than many soldiers (Miami/Savannah). Iraqis who defend their country from foreign invaders when no one has called them to takes immeasurable courage."

These things I agree with. Still, I refuse to condemn our sons and daughters for choosing the military as their path to economic security.

It's okay if you want to, though. But I will not.

[Lone_Wolf]

53. It's propaganda...

In order for the war machine to work you need bodies. One way to attract people to the military is by paying people well. Since our government leaders aren't going to pay soldiers well, (this is corporate welfare for the defense industry) they have to use other tactics to get people to enlist. Essentially they use a two-pronged approach. First, they indoctrinate us into believing that military service is both noble and honorable. Secondly, they like to keep the population at a certain poverty level in order to ensure that the military is an "attractive" option for many of today's youth. This is called the poverty draft.

[manic expression]

57. Exactly.

The only thing that needs to happen is the poorer classes have to realize that dying for a government that does not care about them is not the only way to survive. The party that is more inclined to help the poor (Democrats) has to make an obligation to give other opportunities to the lower classes to make sure this type of selfish exploitation doesn't happen as much as it does.
I don't think keeping people poor so they will join the military is the only reason why the rich do so. It is so they remain powerless to challenge the wealthy (in our system, anyway), and also because the rich always thirst for more money, even if they will never need it. What you said is very true.

[Disturbed]

68. Most wars...

are about power, money, territory and have zero to do with higher ideals. The ideals are used to gain support for the wars and inspire the killers that they are doing the right thing. It is true, isn't it that most of the Military are trained killers or support of that notion? I know that even though I was a cryptographer that I was 1st trained to kill people. It is probably real hard to seperate the killing. Meaning which killings are moral which ones are not but shooting live rounds into a crowd of unarmed protestors is most likely not to difficult to figure out. I am fairly certain that were I in that situation that I would not fire but would I vocally protest that action at that very moment? I just don't know.

[manic expression]

69. I honestly don't know either

But I believe that better is always possible. If we can accomplish the unthinkable in moments when most people would not even think, it will be a victory beyond anything ever seen.

[MrSandman]

77. The military does not choose its fight...

By following the civilian leadership, the armed forces are honoring the flag, be it now or be it 1968.

Most of the actual combat veterans who have talked to me about their experiences fought for their buddies, not the flag.

[manic expression]

80. They don't honor the flag

if they commit heinous acts with it. Was the military honoring the flag as they wiped out almost the entire Native American race? Was the military honoring the flag as they massacred Filipinos?
They would honor the flag by saying that this war is absolutely unnecessary and that the U.S. Armed Forces are not to be used for oppression and imperialism. That would be honoring the flag, would it not?
Don't get me wrong...I'm not really disagreeing with you on anything besides the first line. I think that if they fight for the guy next to them in an honorable and respectable way, they are guilty of only doing it in the form of an unjustified war, which takes absolutely nothing away from the individual at all.

[MrSandman]

82. The choice of the ranks is...

How to serve, not where. Lynndie Enland(sp?) had little choice of where to serve, but great latitude in how to serve.

Casting aspersions on the military is a dangerous thing in swing states with high per capita veteran populations.

The flag is disgraced by the civilian leadership which leads us into these charlie foxtrots.

[manic expression]

84. It seems that

casting aspersions on the military anywhere in this country is dangerous, literally. Well, let me set one thing straight.
I do not, in any way, shape or form; represent the views and opinions of the Kerry Campaign. I do not represent the Democratic Party in any way (I'm not even a member of any party). I only represent the views and opinions of myself and only myself.
Ok, back to the point. The ranks, whether they admit it or not, have a choice not only where and how they serve, but who and what. The U.S. Military should serve decency and honor. Right now, it serves the will of a fool and his gang of thieves. That is not the way it should work.

[MrSandman]

88. That is the reason this election...

Is so important. The Civil Authority should be decent and honorable.

The military has no more say in choosing that leadership than you or I.

When decent, honorable Civil Authority is reestablished, the military will serve decency and honor.

[manic expression]

97. Exactly

And it breaks my heart to see anyone or anything used like they are. We really need to see a change in that regard. If the Military's only sent on missions which are real causes to fight for (like the Sudan crisis), then the U.S. military will be admired by the whole world. That is what we need.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VOX]

86. DUers: DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's a malicious prank that hijacks your PC and calls you "an idiot."

Funny, huh?

[noamnety]

89. How to treat soldiers upon their return

With scrutinizing respect. With careful friendliness.

Perhaps you could also start some threads on these subjects:

1. Let's treat black people with cautious friendliness, because lots of them are violent - you just never know.

2. Men should be treated politely - but as potential rapists.

US Army, Intelligence, active duty/reserves 1984-1992
US Army, Intelligence/Counterintelligence, civilian, 1991 - 2001

During that time, I was helping to determine where the ground troops and weapons ended up after the breakup of the Soviet Union, I was advising the commander of cultural issues involved in invading Iraq during Desert Storm, and I was working to prevent leaks of classified info from our government to others.

We do stand up to our commanders, when appropriate. I've reported my own boss - the guy who did my ratings - for security violations, and I had the gall to ask him to sign the report before I sent it to headquarters. And I've refused orders from a different officer because of an ethics disagreement.

I appreciate you assuming I don't deserve your trust.

[manic expression]

91. What I mean by that is...

Give a soldier your respect, but be careful not to label them as heroic without even talking to them. What I also meant by that is by scrutinizing as in discussion. Dialog is important in any relationship, and that one would be no different.
The difference between race and military careers (BIG difference) is that if someone was in Iraq, one can be sure that someone was part of a campaign of oppression, even if that someone did nothing wrong. And it is a campaign of oppression, there's no two ways around it. Whereas with race, people (putting aside cultural differences gained through life) are exactly the same, and you do not have any idea what they have done during their lives. I see where you're coming from, but I fear you may have been offended by that statement and I'm sorry for that.
I do not object to your service whatsoever. I do object (as I have stated before) to the way the U.S. Military is portrayed, used and how many soldiers act.
And, finally, I respect you for saying "No" to a superior when you thought they were wrong. That is what I've been saying all throughout this thread. The Soldiers have a choice and should not let their lives be used by Bush.
Sorry for offending you before.

[noamnety]

100. yes, you did offend me.

I'm not a flag waver. I don't think the military is out there defending our freedom in Iraq. I don't think each soldier is necessarily a hero. On those points we agree.

Where we disagree is on whether you can make any sort of generalizations about courage or oppression. Standing tall in the face of police brutality takes guts. But Sibel showed an equal amount of guts. And although she is a civilian, you should remember that she was working for that same mission of "oppression" and doing essentially the same job (intelligence) as lots of people in uniform. And she is not the only whistle blower - most just never get any press. The prison abuse was wide spread - and don't get me wrong, I am unspeakably angry about that - and about Bush's role in it. Getting legal approval to go ahead with the torture, then hanging his own troops out to dry after they followed the policy while denying any knowledge, to me is desertion, and more serious desertion than anything he didn't show up for in the ANG. I could go on about that at length.

But there are also people in the army working to prevent exactly that sort of situation, and those who work exclusively to prevent friendly fire incidents, and those who spend their own time and money and put themselves at risk to try to help the population. A completely misguided understanding of foreign policy will prevent them from being successful in a mission of "spreading democracy" but on a personal level, many of them are just as heroic as Sibel, or as a protestor standing up for their rights. Whether or not they were heroic, they deserve compassion - more than you are giving them. They have gone through more hardship than a protestor - it's not just a week-long jaunt into rubber bullets. They've dealt with 24 hour hour a day stress, month after month fear of ambushes, mines, etc. with no end in sight. And when they get back, they will face uncertain medical problems that may not show up for years, or may not show up in them at all, but will appear as birth defects in their children.

One thing I was painfully aware of when I served - as the only non-republican in my unit - and one of two non-republicans in my civilian office - was that we have allowed this to happen. By far, the majority of the military is republican. We have completely given up control, and then we are surprised when the military pursues corporate interests. And I don't mean only at the CinC level - also the workers that award contracts, support services, intelligence. All throughout the military we have said we are morally above military service and won't have anything to do with it. But without good people within the military, we can't act surprised when they do bad things. In that sense, when none of us are willing to serve, it's like not bothering to vote, and then complaining if we don't like what the president does.

[manic expression]

102. The soldiers need to stand up

in the face of authority just like Sibel did. They are under lots of stress...but stress shouldn't make someone stop treating others like humans. If someone handed you a paper that said torture was now official policy (which did happen to those prison guards), would you go along with it? I certainly hope not. I'd like to believe that human beings are capable of thinking independently no matter what the situation and no matter what they are ordered to do. If they do not, then you get the disasters that we have been hearing about through different outlets.
I hope against hope that the military will be portrayed, used and act in a responsible and honest way. The soldiers can do their part to change these things, but they need to refuse to act in an immoral way, whether ordered to or not.

[noamnety]

105. Some do.

Camilo Mejia comes to mind here.

Lynndie England got way more press, of course, but this guy was heroic. I'll be disappointed if Kerry doesn't pardon him shortly after becoming president.

If you demonize military service amongst the liberals, then don't expect anyone from your mindset to join. And then don't expect them to act in a way you find moral. You can almost think of it as infiltration, I suppose - we are going to have a military no matter what, wouldn't we prefer to have more people who believe in diplomacy and less who believe in body counts serving in that military?

Wouldn't you rather have more people like Mejia and less like England serving in the army? Think about if your comments are going to accomplish that.

[manic expression]

106. Of course no one

in "my" mindset would join the military under this administration. I'd be surprised if anyone joined under this administration. As long as we fight wars that are unjustified and continue to cause pain throughout the world, I don't think anyone in "my" mindset will ever join the military.
Its a shame that people don't talk about Mejia more often. I give Mejia and others like him (Hinzman) infinite respect. He has done what I have been saying this whole time and it amazes me. And he will suffer consequences for his actions (which were noble in every way). However, if he continued to fight in Iraq and died in a war he objected to, that would be a far, far worse fate. We should build statues to honor people like him.

[leesa]

94. It's a sad fact that nearly every war is fought for corporate adventures

only. The flag rah, rah bullshit is just to whip up the cannon fodder. Works every time.

[manic expression]

96. Very true.

I'm only trying to say that the soldiers DO have a choice to refuse to be cannon fodder. They can change the situation for the better.

[vetwife]

103. They are young. impressionable and

they don't have a choice once they buy into the BS. They are mislead into believing that being a patriot is serving in the military. Many come from broken homes. Many have low self esteem and many are trying to Be all that can be as the slogan goes. they buy the propoganda, but once you are in there you butt is their's and you have no choice. You can get fragged, jailed or in wartime even shot. I think some of your points are valid but for the most part I clearly see that you do not understand a soldier's plight or survival after being misled, nor do you understand the veterans rights for benefits. Not all battles are waged on the battlfield and not all wars are fought with weapons of artillery, some wars are of the heart and mind. I honor all who have fought for voters rights, suffrage, first respondeders, teachers, and soldiers. Not all are worthy of respect but they have gone where some have feared to tread.

[manic expression]

104. Good points...

But I still think all the excuses in the world cannot rationalize some of the things that are happening. I'm almost positive I do not understand a soldier's plight, and I know that. But plight alone can never make a human treat people in such ways (It's not specific to Abu-Graib). I just think they could act in a more sympathetic way to the people we've subjected to such pain.
By the way...I understand that veterans get treated pretty badly by the government (Desert Storm syndrome, no good health-care...), but I think you understand that situation a lot better than I do. Could you please tell me about that?

[noamnety]

107. Health insurance when I was serving

I had it pretty good by most standards. I was a full time civilian for the army during Desert Storm, stateside. It was a temporary job, but it lasted a year, and then they hired me permanently.

Overlapping with that, I was also in the reserves, doing my one weekend a month, and two weeks in the summer.

Because my full time job for the army was temporary, I got no benefits. So I worked two jobs for the army, every month I had a stretch of 12 days with no days off. And while I got two weeks of vacation, I had to use it for my reserve duty - I didn't get vacation time plus reserve duty days off. So, fine, a full year, I took no vacation days at all. The week I started the full time job, the ex left me, with no forwarding address, so I was basically a single mom, though technically married, with no family in the area, scrambling to find neighbors to watch my daughter on the weekends so I could show up for drills. Neither job qualified me for health care, so we spent a lot of time at community clinics for medical and dental care. And my reserve unit was occasionally notifying us that we were about to be activated - leaving me with nobody to watch my kid ... thank God we never did get called up.

So ... a bit of a sob story there, yet I was one of the ones that had it easy, there's no denying it. I didn't get called up, I didn't have to go overseas, and my kid was already born.

This is what some of the less fortunate from that time frame are dealing with now: http://www.life.com/Life/essay/gulfwar/gulf01.html

[vetwife]

109. Yes I can and it is so very sad.

I don't know your age but during the draft many kids were drafted during Vietnam. My husband bought the BS and had a hard homelife. A young man came home in a box an he thought the communist (ie) terrorists today were gonna wipe us all out starting in Vietnam, so he joined up to defend America. He thought. Once he got over there it was a whole other story.

He fought to survive. HE had to watch his back at all times not just from not knowing who the enemy was , his own people, fellow vets would frag him if he saw things and reported them, that is why it took courage for Kerry to come back and report things. His commanders did order many things done in the name of defense. Do it or die. HE was so confused and lived in the jungle while this government hit them with Agent orange and other toxins. When they came home. He threw his medals away and he had quite a few. HE was messed up bad in the head. HE brought the war home with him. HE never rests to this day. He has migranes, he can't concenrate, he has survival guilt and flashbacks and extremely bad nightmares. There is something dormant that lies in all of these vets.

There is a line one does not cross and Stupid George does not get it. 110,000 plus have died by their own hand AFTER the war was over and there is no memorial to them. Some have taken to the streets and abused alcohol and drugs as part of dealing with their horror. Many have been eaten alive inside out from the toxins that were poured upon them. Many are homeless. At least 30 percent of all homeless people are veterans. They try and try and have been discarded. Not all veterans have a wife at home that can take some of the mood and PTSD disorder, I am actually wife number 5 and we have been married 15 years. I got him in treatment programs and was fortunate enough to earn his trust and there are not many he trust. Any people....I have seen him hospitalized for up to 6 months, and become disoriented and he has never abused me but that is not true for all veterans. He cannot remember things and is the most passive man I know. I went to Washington and tried to get him a disability under Bush 1 and went toe to toe with a Colonel. I fired the Appeals lawyer and this colonel and I had it out.

We talked about what it was like to drop a dish and explain to people that your loved one is under a table because he thinks for a second he is still in War. I told him of the midnight runs to the local hospital for a shot to get rid of crushing headaches. I told him about the paranoia of hearing helicopters. It was not unti Bill Clinton went into office and I never ever let up on the VA or the politicans about my husband and his daily plight to survive. I never stopped preaching. I never stopped speaking out on behalf of veterans and I would not take NO for an answer. Never will.

I worked with Sam Nunn, Max Cleland, and several others and found out real quick that a dem cares about the veteran and the Republicans just talk it..Chickenhawks for the most part. Won't fight the wars they start but will send men and women into battle and then make them fight the government for what is rightfully their's. An agreement that was entered into to defend or so called defend the country, when they put the uniform on. They won't (the VA) tell them what they are rightfully entitled to under Title 38 of the VA entitlements and Bush and republicans are stripping much of it away faster than I can keep up. You fight for treatment at a VA facility. They are closing hospitals and trying to screw the vet without so much as a kiss. Lying to the Persian gulf vets about the anthrax vaccine and the toxins from oil fires.

You fight for being hurt in war, you die at a young age and most feel like they died in combat , the just haven't laid down yet. Some veteran organizations are just hugh lobby groups and will not actually help the vet. I have answred the phone at 3 in the morning and had a vet on the other end that I never met with a 357 to his head saying I have lost everything I have owned and my family has left. Tell me why I shouldn't pull the trigger. thank God I had been a 911 operator and trained. they wait and wait for years to get just compensation while they try to hold down a job and then they try for more years than that for an appeal. No its heartwrenching and I just have scratched the surface. These kids from Iraq coming home are eve going to even be more screwed. But I'm here. I am still fighting and won't stop till I take my last breath.
Thank you for asking. So many dont. People in ihg places kow who I am and know I do not bluff and that I mean what I say and had just as soon walk in and face the devil as to put up with BS being dumped on the vet. I have encsloed some pics. Yes they know me. Most hate me in authority but they have to respect me because I speak truth to their lies and demand justice ! I take it to the airwaves from state to state and don't get paid a dime. I scream for justice and organize and reach out. I am for the veteran and not for the war. It all comes down to the negotiating table at the end but how many lives on both sides of the spectrum have been ruined? We have to have a defense system, we just need to have more people demanding justice. I look for those people and I am not afraid to say Thank you for your service and Welcome Home and I am sorry you were so young to have your life destroyed by Militarization and some are still caught up in what they were taught but most who saw battle up close and personal detest war. I too am am a Freedom Fighter. I fight for the Freedom for the Veteran !


Author of Agent Orange and Enviromental Toxins--Don Rosenblum and Amanda Kato at VA Headquarters Washington DC



Amanda and MAx

http://groups.msn.com/UnitedVeteransofAmerica/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=10 click on link for pic of Sen Harking and myself.

[manic expression]

110. After hearing that...

I'm at a loss for words. That actually brought tears to my eyes. It must be so hard to go through that day after day with no one in any position giving any aid. This country and this administration in particular has a very cruel habit of screwing over its veterans. Bush even proposed cutting combat pay by 50%. They use depleted uranium when they know it will inflict lifetime damage on both the soldier who uses it and the person who it is used upon. The people who go to war today will not see their battles end until they die. It is an extremely depressing predicament. I think that seeing such horrible things, soldiers begin to get callous about inhumane actions. I'm not sure if this is avoidable in any way or not, but it is a serious problem when you hear about snipers shooting at kids, parents and doctors (clearly innocent bystanders) in Falluja. The list of wrongs that have been committed by U.S. troops is very long, and of course I'm not sure of the cause, but I'd like to hear what you think. Is it because of the form of insanity that soldiers experience in those situations? Or is it through callousness? Is it because soldiers blindly followed the heinous orders of a "superior"? I believe that the causes are probably those 3 but if you think of something or if you believe that one is a bigger cause than the other I'd love to hear your opinions.
"I don't kow your age but during the draft many kids were drafted..." I'm approaching "draft-able" age if Bush so chooses to install it again. So I'm planning on fighting the draft, sentimentally or physically (non-violent resistance). Furthermore, if I am drafted, I'm pretty sure I'll refuse and go to jail instead (or maybe go to another country).
Something has to change...I think it would be a good idea to pass legislation that if Congress and the President approves a war, then at least one relative of a Representative who voted in favor should immediately be sent to front-line duty. That'll make sure they consider American lives before kicking them to their potential deaths.
We need more people like you, people who demand justice and truth in a country where there is little to be found. Keep fighting and don't give up!

[vetwife]

111. Oh Dear.....

The war machine has been going since we first took the land away from the indians. The average age of a young man going into combat is 18. At 18 one is very very impressionable. I am 54. My husband served with the 101st and attached to Special Forces. HE was 18. HE thought 25 year olds were old timers. My husband is native american. If people do not get out and vote Kerry in, a man who did see combat up close and personal, then opting out to another country may not be possible. Have you thought that maybe they will close the borders since this is supposed to be a war on terrorism worldwide. Where could one go and not be shipped back to the US ? Something to think about. This is wartime like noneother. There is a movie called the Executionof Private Slovik starring Martin Sheen. A man they shot..He thought he would go to jail but it didn't work out that way. Not fulfilling your duty qualifies as a deserter and a punishment that carries the death penalty. IT is not as simple as simply going to jail. Not anymore with this maniac in the white house.

Canada? They have an agreement now to send troops back to face the judge. Again a capitol offense.

Do I think the committed autrocities because of orders. Some did. Some were propogandized into believing these people are like animals and not human. They trained them day in and day out and still do KILL KILL KILL with COLD COLD STEEL ! IS it a form of brainwashing? yes I think so and I also think you need to read up on MK Ultra and Psych ops. You need to know how this war machine twists one's mind to accomplish things one might never do. The young men and women become part of the machinery and that is why they come back twisted and filled with survival guilt. They are ruined unless they get help quick for life and with the cutbacks there is little help. There is also all kinds of drugs that you are given under the name of Malaria or anthrax ..but do you really know what they are giving you? Really? I think there may be a few who enjoy being a warrior but I think for the majority it is not that way. They have no choice. It is Survival and the will to live. They want their life back and they will never have what they left. It is one thing to play a video game where you get 5 or 6 more pac men , it is another to see a person dying in your arms or see what you have done to another. I feel sorry for young people your age. We must rid this nation of George W. Bush and all the warmongers like him. Those who choose war over peace and do it in the name of Freedom. There is a time to defend but most of the time it is a money making machine, See..click link
http://costofwar.com

[manic expression]

112. Even with all

the brainwashing and drugging; and even after they have seen the most horrible things imaginable...I believe there is something that remains that one always has. I think even a brainwashed mind can break from the prison of hate and make a choice. No living thing is ever owned by another. I don't care how many sheets of paper and how many laws which say so, but the U.S. government will never own anyone. The soldiers in Iraq must stop acting upon immoral orders and aggressive instincts. The fact that your husband could've been killed by other vets for speaking out shows the degree of insanity that abounds in the Armed Forces. We need to start holding SOMEONE accountable for what's going on. Not just Bush and his gang, but the people who carry out his will.
I think kids in America (a LOT of them are my peers) are conditioned to believe that "Sweet and fitting it is to die for one's country". Through WWII video games and the media painting a glorious picture on the faces of soldiers; with football coaches enforcing total authority on their players, discouraging freedom of thought. Teenagers see war as romantic and exiting.
The part about the grip is tightening on eligible draftees is quite harrowing. I will never allow myself to be corralled into a disgusting war without a fight. I'll gladly seek refuge in North Korea before "serving" Bush.
The only time I would ever fight in a war is if it was something of the Lincoln Brigade during the Spanish Civil War. I would probably jump at the chance to serve in crisis's like Rwanda or Sudan. As long as it's FOR something (duty is not to a "superior". Duty is to oneself and to one's morals. Courage is doing what you know is right, even if you suffer for it), and not for someone.

[Orion82]

113. Why the hell should they follow orders...

of gang leaders and war criminals. Everyone in our so call military has the option to lay down their weapons and walk away. If they dont they are nothing but murderers.

[greblc]

114. Talk to someone who lived in Great Britain or Europe....

during WW2.

Todays Military is Misused and Abused.

A Miltary Coup would be nice but improbable.

Your right those awfull things have happend. the bad list is probably much longer than the Good things our Miltary has done.

I think i'll Start a Post!!! We'll see what DU thinks. ( I'm setting My self up for abuse. I think i'll go to bed.)

[noamnety]

115. quick question

have you listened to the winter soldier testimony?

I was burning a copy to send to my sister, and it suddenly occurred to me I wanted to ask you if you'd heard it.