Cantankerous old man I work with says it doesn't matter who's

[goodboy]

president. Medicare would've gone up anyway. He says he's old enough to know that there's nothing we can do about it going up, and it doesn't matter "who's in there" it's going up anyway. How can I prove to this bitter old man that he's wrong, and he should be PISSED, absolutely PISSED about W.

Your help is greatly appreciated.

[pmbryant]

1. Perhaps pointing out...

the relative deficits run up by recent Republican presidents versus the surpluses run up by recent Democratic presidents might help this fellow see the light.

At least it's a start. A few followup points will probably be required.

--Peter

[gratuitous]

2. Oh really?

Does he honestly think President Gore would have squandered $200 billion and 1,000 soldiers to invade Iraq? And what could that $200 billion have funded, if it had been spent at home, instead of securing the Iraqi oil fields for Halliburton? A prescription drug benefit, maybe?

[goodboy]

9. He won't even listen to me when I bring those things up...

I'm having to bring up issues that I think will resonate with seniors especially. ..this guy gets so pissed because he's wrong about everything, I have to use different tactics to debate him.

[DulceDecorum]

3. He probably thinks that

he is aboard the Titanic,
with all the doors open and not enough lifeboats.

[goodboy]

15. nice analogy...eom

[demnan]

4. This guy knows

that if you have a balanced budget you can afford to buy things. Well when Clinton was in office, we had a surplus and Al Gore promised that there would be a "lock box" on social security. Bush made no such promise and prefers to privatize social security, making retirement based on the stock market. Tell your friend he has a clear choice between the stability of a Democratic administration and the uncertainty of a Republican one.

[goodboy]

16. But this guy claims that medicare itself would go up no matter who's

pres. How can I overcome that?

[Cyrano]

5. I don't know if you can get through to him

In Nixon's final days, I knew people who thought he was being railroaded by "northeastern, liberal, establishment, 'fag,' commie, Jews." Nothing I could say or do would change their minds. These people were zombies marching to the beat of their own dirge.

It was at that time that I was first becoming politically aware and I still believed that one could present facts to people, reason with them and convince them they were wrong. Boy, did I have my head up my ass.

Wish I could offer some useful advice, but based on my own experience, give it up.

[goodboy]

17. YOU said it...

"It was at that time that I was first becoming politically aware and I still believed that one could present facts to people, reason with them and convince them they were wrong. Boy, did I have my head up my ass."


I'm a fighter...and I don't care if he never talks to me again because of this, but I don't back down ESPECIALLY when I know I'm right.

[Cyrano]

21. Okay, but you're tilting at windmills

You won't get through to this man and he's going to end up hating your guts. I had a similar circumstance happen within my own family during the Vietnam war and some of us didn't talk to each other for many, many years.

Maybe you don't care if this curmudgeon doesn't ever talk to you again, but, given my own experiences, you're not going to convince, convert, enlighten, educate, or bludgeon this man's brain into some semblance of reasonable thought.

Nonetheless, I admire your persistence, hope, and faith in your ability to get through to this man. I wish you the best, and I also wish you'd spend your time on those who can be educated.

[goodboy]

22. thanks...that really does make me feel better about what I'm doing...eom

[AP]

6. Tell him that the huge tax cuts the rich got might be the reason they have

to make it up by charging more for Medicare.

Ask him if he thinks it's more equitable to ask the people who benefit the most to pay for society at least in proportion to the benefits they reap, or if it's equitable to ask people, regardless of their income, to pay more, especially if that increase might be significant percentage or that person's income.

Point out that Bush is INCREASING the "tax" (it's a de facto tax) on old people 17% just for their health care, regardless of their income. But he took account of income when he decided to give the richest the biggest tax CUTS over the last 3 years. Bush is simply shifting around the burdens and benefits of society. He's shifting the benefits to the people who need them the least, and the burdens to the people who are least able to bear them.

[goodboy]

18. Increasing the "tax"...really interesting. That might work.

but he'd need to see 'proof' Somehow he thinks everything I read on the internet is not true.

[AP]

19. There's got to be a graph showing where the tax breaks went.

And then just tell him to do the math. 17% increase in health care expenses for EVERYONE on medicare, regardless of income. Ask him how many people for whom that might constitute a 17% increase in their total tax bill since they make no money.

[AP]

20. Tell him it would be more fair if EVERYONE saw their tax bill go up 17%

for paying for health care. And it would be most fair if we didn't force people hurting the most to incur all the costs of running society, especially since doing that is allowing a lot of people who benefit the most from society to reap only benefits and incur no burden at all.

Point out that the tax bill is only going up only for people who get the means-tested health care, and it's going up for everyone, regardless of whether they can afford it. In other words, a large % of this is a burden being borne by the people who are hurting the most. Sound familiar? Cause Bush is doing that to give a lot of benefits to people who need them the least?

[MISSDem]

7. I know lots of people who feel this way.

That is the sad thing about it. They say and I quote: the day after the election I will get up and do exactly what I did the day before with no changes whatsoever. It doesn't matter. Another one says: God is in charge. Another one says: All politicians are crooks. These people don't bother to vote and don't think that it matters a hill of beans. How do we reach them?

[billybob537]

11. To hell with the zombies

don't waste your time on them just wait til something serious goes wrong. Like their kid getting sent to Iraq.

[DoBotherMe]

12. Make him watch the Matrix trilogy

oops I meant to reply to the original. D ; )

[goodboy]

14. You're right.

This guy, especially...he knows that * is the worst president ever. He's a military man and was in WW2 and Korea...so I know he must hate what chimpo has done to our poor soldiers. He's bitter because he knows I'm right but won't admit it.

[grytpype]

8. He's right.

Medicare is screwed.

[goodboy]

10. Is there a chart that shows costs rising/falling under what administration

something like that might work.

I wrote him a note saying, "I read medicare costs are going up another 17%...why are they doing this to seniors?"

He threw it away without reading it. This is what I'm up against.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. I knew a cantankerous old man like that in 2000

He was even experienced in politics (he'd worked on the campaign of anti-war Oregon Senator Wayne Morse), but he had grown very cycnical in his old age and was convinced that Bush and Gore were equally bad and that there was no point in voting.

By the time he died, two years later, he had changed his tune. Every day he had a new complaint about Bush.

But not in 2000. (Well, Oregon went for Gore anyway, without his help, but still...)