I am sick of the mindset that protesting the war is tantamount to spitting

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

on soldiers.

It's the opposite now as it was the opposite a quarter of a century ago.

What convoluted logic can take a protest designed to take our soldiers out of harm's way and convert it into an anti soldier stand?

Why do so many feel that the concept of NOT killing others is unpatriotic?

Why is it that no one in the media or government can put together the fact that the Iraqis might be a little pissed at America when we have killed roughly 12,000 men women and children whose only crime was to have lived in Iraq?

I just watched Skip Barker who saw John Kerry catch a wound in his thigh on the swift boat fess up that he voted for Shrub, but it was a bad mistake. Why are so many Americans of the set that once we have committed to a "war" we must see it through to the end no matter what that end may be and no matter the fact that we were lied to to start the damned thing in the first place?

Life is sacred. American life, Iraqi life... These people profess to be Christians and Jews. What is it about Thou shalt not kill that they don't understand?


(end questioning rant).

[DrWeird]

1. Yeah, but the people who say that...

are the same people who support the war from behind the comfort of they're computer monitors.

Fucking savages.

[greblc]

11. Not so...

My Stepfather is a Vietnam Vet (and War Hero, rank of SSgt, Silver Star, 3 Bronze Stars, 2 Purple Hearts, Air Service Medal) He will never Vote for Kerry for the simple reason "Kerry protested the war." I don't understand it , But I do respect his feelings on the topic. We agree to diagree.

I have an uncle who was actually spit on in an Airport upon returning home from 2 back to back tours in Vietnam. He changed out of his soiled uniform in the restroom and threw it away. He feels the same way.

These men have felt betrayed for 30yrs. Very few people can understand what that must feel like.

You don't have to agree with them, but they have reasons for their opinions.

[greblc]

39. My Uncles Story is in Bob Greene's Book...

"Homecoming: When Soldiers returned home from Vietnam."
It's out of print you can buy it used at Amazon for $.99

[VOX]

2. For the record, there is no documentation of Vietnam vets being spat upon

This is a fiction begun, ironically, by Hollywood.

http://www.thevoicenews.com/News/2003/0228/In_Response/R03_Bernard-re_Barlow.html
The Voice News
February 28, 2003
The Myth of the Spat-Upon Veteran
By Gabrielle Bernard-Winsted

Chad Barlow, in his impassioned support of war , repeats the myth that peace activists "SPAT ON our soldiers returning from Vietnam." It’s a great story, but like many right-wing myths (e.g., the story of feminists burning bras), it is simply not true.

Jerry Lembcke, an associate professor of sociology at Holy Cross College, did an exhaustive search in the process of writing his 1998 book, "The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory and the Legacy of Vietnam." He found not a single case of a returning Vietnam veteran spat upon by antiwar activists. The relation between Vietnam veterans and the peace movement was generally good, since the antiwar people saw the mostly working class vets as just as much victims of the war machine as the Vietnamese peasants. We should remember that in that war, as many as 550,000 GIs went AWOL or deserted. A Harris Poll in 1971 showed that only 1% of the veterans encountered hostile reactions when they came home, and they did not think the antiwar movement was hostile to them.

<snip>

The single image of the spat-upon Vietnam veteran became the perfect myth of the Nixon-Agnew strategy to discredit the antiwar movement. What solidified the image of the reviled, spat-upon, and eventually crazed Vietnam veteran was the movies. It started in Jane Fonda's Coming Home, where a returning vet is verbally accosted as he returns home: "We don't want your rotten war!" Trouble is, peace activists quietly picketed soldiers going to Vietnam, not returning. But it was the 1977 movie Tracks in which we got the good pro-war veteran and the bad antiwar activist, Mark, who repeatedly spits on his opponents. Hollywood's role in creating the myth of the spat-upon veteran had begun.

And the end result was Rambo, the crazed Vietnam veteran: "But somebody wouldn't let us win. I come back and see all these maggots at the airport. Protesting me, spitting, calling me a baby-killer. Who are they to protest me? Huh?"

It's called the manufacture of consent. It is going on now and it's very scary.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

4. Unfortunately, we live in an America where myth trumps truth

in the vast majority of American homes. I ascribe it to rampant ignorance.

[jdj]

6. thank you!

I needed that.

stuff like this is what inspired my pretend bumper sticker "Barnum/Cheney 2004, because there's a sucker born every minute!"

[OHswingvoter]

7. not sure about that.

I was called a baby killer and worse when I got back. Tried to go to the college and take a few classes but was treated like dirt by the hippies. I was not in uniform at the time, but they used to call me names and spit on me. One building had a weirdly shaped 5 story stairway. hippies would be at the top of the stairs and spit down on the more clean cut students as they ascended or descended the stairs. Of course they would be long gone by the time I could get up there to kick some ass. I did beat up a couple of the stupid long-haired fucks, but ended up dropping out because I could not take the daily humiliation from those assholes. Kids today aren't much better. Those dippy hippies were the start of a down hill slide for American youth.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

8. It was probably your attitude. Looking at your previous posts, I wouldn't

be surprised.

We're about the same age if your self description is correct. I was a C.O. while you were in Nam and was protesting because I was tired of seeing my schoolmates coming home in body bags or so completely fucked by post traumatic stress in a war that was based on lies...

I was in Columbus, GA & Huntsville, AL during the Vietnam war (oops, Police Action), both military towns, and lived and partied with folks in the military. Still do. Full birds and down. Have WWII Occupation bills framed on my wall from my Grandfather who served with Admiral Halsey and a Stainless Bracelet pulled from a deck in Pearl Harbor after 3 hours under water during rescue work. My Uncle died in Korea, My father was a Marine Staff Seargent. My draft number was 12 and my family helped me stay here and work against the war (not the soldier). I come from a long line of patriots and am here to tell you that patriotism is a hell of a lot more than blindly following the politician du jour. NEVER did I or anyone I saw give a soldier a hard time. We embraced them.

(BTW, If you donate, you can get a star and use the search function as well).

A quote from one of your posts: "check out Kerry's Senate record he has always been anti-gun or pro gun control however the hell you want to put it. Anyone who is unaware of this must have been under anesthesia for the past 20 years.

Under ordinary circumstances, I would no more vote for this clown than poke myself in the eye with a sharp stick."

<snip>

Sigh.

You've been here four weeks now. How do you like it so far?

[bobbyboucher]

10. If you only had any credibility,

then maybe we might buy into your bullshit. Just reading that post with its ridiculous, oops, did I say ridiculous, I meant hysterically funny stereotypes that only a rube would believe, makes one not take you seriously.

Somehow try to find a clue.

[Djinn]

13. so they just psychically knew you'd fought in Vietnam

"I was not in uniform at the time, but they used to call me names and spit on me"

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

15. Those fucking psychic hippies!

LOL! :toast:

[CaTeacher]

24. I hate to point this out,

but I went to a fairly small college (in California, probably not the one that this dude went to he claimed to be from an even smaller town--Lima, Ohio) and at my school it was common knowledge who had served.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

17. That analogy sounds as sick and as contrived as the post you are

addressing.

<snip>
"(I was always with my friends and we protected either by a police line or being where the vets couldn't get to us--although I did get arrested a few times it was worth it to educate people about the evils of that horrible WRONG war)."

Your posts reads like cliche propoganda from a 1970's Nixon dirty tricks junkie.

P.S.
What's with the pigeon english?

[CaTeacher]

18. English is not my first language.

Although my family has lived in Illinois for many generations, my father was in the military and I was born and raised in Morocco until I was 9. I was raised mostly by my muslim nurse, and English does not feel like my first language. I am a highly intelligent and well educated African American woman, often people slur me and pick at tiny flaws or imperfections. I am used to it so fire away.

I actually feel bad about attacking the poor guy so much, I have lots of resentment against the military because of my upbringing. And yes, I was a very disruptive protestor in my youth. Sometimes, I still raise a little bit of a rokus. Anyway, we tombstoned that poor sad bitter dude and I know for a fact he was indeed a Democratic voter. Oh well-you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. Right?

[Columbia]

21. Wow, if that guy was for real

We probably just lost a vote in Ohio...

[Iris]

22. Do you really think he was for real?

really?

[Columbia]

26. I have no idea

I hope he wasn't for our sake.

[Iris]

29. You are bordering on pathetic here.

This is one lousy idiot who was probably just here to stir up shit and you are really agonizing over losing 1 vote?

Do you think a "swing voter" would come into a forum like this looking for information and, just for good measure, would start attacking the people (hippies) who may or may not be here?

[Columbia]

31. Gee, you sure are nice

[Iris]

32. I'm sorry.

I'm functioning on too little sleep right now and I'm not being very thoughtful.

I just hate to think we might be reduced to pandering to anyone for a vote just to get Bush out of office when he shouldn't even be there in the first place.

Please accept my apologies.

[Columbia]

36. Accepted

Personally, I think every single vote is going to be important in this election. Pandering not needed, just respect.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

27. I doubt seriously that he was for real.

Search his previous posts if they are still here and judge fo yourself.

(BTW, I was NOT the person who alerted on him)

[CaTeacher]

30. I am very confident that he was

a Democrat. A very angry Democrat but a Democrat all the same. I exchanged a few e-mails with him. He was angry at the whole world, he has had a lot of hard knocks and is living on the edge. All it will take is one good push to send him over.

He hates Bush a lot, so he will stay in the Democratic camp. He has nowhere else to go. No worries about his vote. I feel like I shouldn't have attacked so hard, he had talked of suicide in his e-mails and now I feel bad because we all attacked him and he is tombstoned too. I am also sure his story has some truth to it. Perhaps some exaggeration, but I do believe he experienced some pain. I just hated his constant whining and complaining about it. This in not a therapy group. If someone is not tough enough to take DU then they need to get out of the kitchen.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

23. There's being disruptive and there's being hateful...

In the 60's and 70's there was a draft and there were many who saw the military as a way out of poverty or circumstance. The vast majority of the Military are good human beings. The Lt. Calleys and Lindie Englands are (thankfully) few and far between.

Yes, there were atrocities and Brando's Lt. Kurz was (loosly) based on a real person, but it was our GOVERNMENT that held the trigger then and does today. Misdirected anger does nothing but harm.

[CaTeacher]

33. I agree and I would not

be nearly so provocative today. I was young and stupid. To quote Bush (first time ever) when I was young and stupid I was young and stupid. There was a lot of anger. And us African Americans were fighting in battle for our basic rights in the 60s and even into the 70s. Some of us were enraged for far too long.

Dave (OH dude), if you are still around I am very very sorry for the way I treated some of your compatriots when they came back from the war. I am also sorry that I attacked you so strongly in this thread and that you never even got a chance to give your side back. I did not question your sincerity about voting for Kerry, and I appreciate the help that you gave me in convincing a relative to avoid military service. We disagree on many things because we have very from different philosophies, but we are both members of this Democratic party and we need your vote so please do not turn off from Kerry even though some of his supporters (including me) treated you poorly. You still have my e-mail address and are welcome to contact me at anytime.

Peace to all.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

35. I was young and stupid as well...

I was also a follower of Ghandi & King. Cost me a broken nose at the end of a chain wielded by a Redneck high school coach, but I remained non-violent then as well as today.

[JSJ]

28. rarely heard perspective- spitting is a compliment compared...

...to killing.

[Zomby Woof]

34. it is rare, but I am stunned

I will freely admit that I spit on a few ex veterans/cops/and plain establishment types who I hated back in the day but that was a long time ago.

Ah, I see that our ideas are superior because we back them up with bodily fluids. Anger is no excuse for failing to back up your views with reason and perhaps a bit of empathy for other human beings. How can we persuade others of the rightness of our views by these means?

We can't.

although I did get arrested a few times it was worth it to educate people

Did you really 'educate' people? Did you engage them in dialogue and reach a mutual understanding? I hope you do not consider aggression and spitting to be 'educating'.

if you have hard feelings against more enlightened and intelligent people who only tried to make you see the error of your ways.

The sanctimoniousness of that statement is stunning. I hope the more enlightened and educated among you relied more on reason that saliva to educate the poor huddled masses beneath you. No wonder I loathe ideological purity and value pragmatism more. It is undemocratic to think of oneself as oh-so-superior and enlightened above others. I am sorry, but that way of thinking just makes me ill. I hope I am not alone in being reviled by your sentiments.


If you were a good person, you would not have gone.

I see now... Kerry, and countless others, are bad people for having gone. Such judgmental harshness placed on people who did not have the means to avoid service in that war, and such superiority over those who did what they felt was right at the time! Astounding. Although I agree the war was horrible and wrong, to pass such judgment on your fellow travelers means that maybe you have much from that time to heal from as well.


Nothing makes me more angry than criminals, sociopathic killers who come here and whine and beg for sympathy.

I do not know the person who that is directed at, but that is very presumptious.

If we are indeed progressive and compassionate liberals, we will do better to treat our fellow human beings better, and it starts from within.

I need to wash the bad taste out of my mouth now... your post was too much.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

37. Well said, sir.

:toast:

[Columbia]

19. Are you saying that it NEVER happened even ONCE?

[Iris]

25. Did you read the article?

This myth has been debunked over and over. The story wasn't that it happened ONCE, the story was it happened over and over to nearly every veteran who returned and the fact is, people have tried to find these men who were spit on and could not.

[greblc]

40. Read post #11

It happened. Bob Green found these People and compiled a book of their letters. My uncle was one of them.

[Mr_Spock]

3. Well, noone who knows me would say something so entirely stupid

in front of my face - at least not if they like their smile. Stupid fucks don't understand the REAL price of freedom. Their armchair quarterbacks at best.

[G_j]

5. yep, THEY are the ones spitting on the graves

of the dead.

good post

[waywest]

9. Wearing "purple heart bandaids" is...

tantamount to spitting on soldiers.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

12. But... It's all in fun.

All war is fun.

If you're a "moran" neocon.

[librechik]

16. Welcome to 1972. Here come the neo Hippie Wars!

ahhm jeez. Why do we keep repeating these lessons of history?

Because Republicans ARE STUPID!!!!!

[CaTeacher]

20. I repeat history because

I am proud of being a McGovern Democrat. The gentleman who just got tombstoned had told me he was an FDR/Truman democrat--not a McGovern Democrat.

Our problem is that there is a divide between the two camps. Personally, I want our party to move toward the McGovern side of things. Some people will not be happy with this, tough luck. We need to fight for our party.

[progressivebydesign]

38. Seems to me, the anti-war protesors are the ones who care more..

.. I don't know how the rightwing was able to spin things, but it would seem to me that those of us who are against sending our young men and women to die in pointless wars, are the ones actually supporting the troops. I'd say support includes not wanting them in harm's way. The rightwing has been able to define us as being anti-troop, when we're nothing of the sort.

The only troops I'm not supportive of, are those that commite abuse and atrocities, regardless of the validity of the war.